Mini 575 - Roach's Mafia! - Abandoned.

[caf19]

Hello everyone. It's my second MS game and my first outside the newbie forum, woot.

Anyway,

vote Lalmtreasteek

because I'm not quite sure how to pronounce that.

[caf19]

I'm fairly sure Zed only has 3 votes, it's just that UnofficialRuler voted for him three times in a row. To that effect, it's time for a rival bandwagon!

Unvote, Vote UnofficialRulerOfEveryone

For being over-aggressive, constantly unvoting and revoting, unintentionally deceiving the mod etc.

[caf19]

Things are happening finally. I personally think we put you at L-1.

Snix - zeddicus said he would react at L-1 by claiming, then you say you want him to be at L-1. Why do you want him to claim so early on?

Also, no-one seems to have responded to my point that zed is only on 3 votes anyway, UROE just confused the mod by voting three times. I read through and I can ony count three - can anyone verify or refute this?

[caf19]

I guess Marmalade and avinashv will need prods, they've been quiet for a while.

I know I've been fairly quiet, but I'm never too enthusiastic about early day 1. My vote still stays on UROE for his revote on zeddicus just because a bandwagon was forming (i.e. he thought he might be able to get him lynched).

[caf19]

So, let's look at UnofficialRulerOfEveryone's reasons for voting and unvoting zeddicus. Firstly, post 73:

Let me explain myself... 1st is OMGUS in random voting, 2nd is when I see a reason to actually voting and (not bothering to go back and check who my random vote was on) unvote and revote,

Hang on there. Let's go look at that 2nd vote - it's in post 30. In that post, UROE calls zed a "funsucker" and votes for him because zed told him to stop making jokes. That's not a "reason to actually vote", it's the least serious reason ever. So basically, that explanation is full o' crap.

I shortly unvote and then revote jumping on the bandwagon VRK started

Er, yes. That's a recount of what happened and doesn't actually explain anything.

UROE elaborates a bit more in post 81 where he says he voted zed a 3rd time because he failed to "defend himself". Defend himself against what? The only attacks on him, UROE, were your random votes, and VRK deciding to start a totally random wagon on him. And after that random wagon started you gave him all of... 13 minutes before voting for him. So, you weren't really looking for zed to defend himself, you just jumped right on after it looked like you were getting some support for your reasonless attacks.

In other words, UnofficialRulerOfEveryone = lies upon lies. Scum, in my eyes.

[caf19]

Let's keep this game moving folks. i don't want us to be deadlined.

Only 4 people have posted in the last 72 hours... that can't be good for the scumhunt.

[caf19]

There is no reason to jump on me for a joke, this is happening to someone who is obviously protown in another one of my games and it is ridiculous. I see jumping on someone trying to make a joke into a real reason looks scummy to me, which is why this vote had a "reason", which is why I voted for him.

OK, fair enough, so you did have a reason to vote for him. Except that was the reason for your FIRST vote and your second vote still doesn't really have a reason. This is at direct odds with what you said in post 73:

Let me explain myself... 1st is OMGUS in random voting, 2nd is when I see a reason to actually voting

What's up with the change of story?

I said look at the time stamps BEFORE the random wagon, he was given almost 13 HOURS,

Er, 13 hours isn't actually that long. Maybe 48 I could understand, but 13? Doesn't seem like an honest reason to me - I can't really envision you going "look, it's been 13 hours without that guy defending himself, I'd better put my vote on him for pressure". It seems far more likely that you thought to yourself, "look, someone else has voted for Zeddicus, now that I've got some support for my vote I can put it back on without looking scummy!"

Any response?

Yes: your explanations are largely unsatisfactory. However I'm pleased that you actually bothered to come out and defend yourself, unlike the multiple people who are happy just to lurk. So, I will take some time to evaluate whether your actions are scum or noob town. My vote stays on you for the moment though - you're not in immediate danger, and it seems to be provoking some nice responses

Anyway, time to call some people out.
Fox, you've been quiet for a while - any response to Marmalade's point about you in post 87?
Cookie Monster, you said you'd post on Monday... it's now Wednesday and we're still waiting. Share your opinions!
There are others who probably need prodding. Mod?

[caf19]

caf and marmalade, any reason they were left out of this?

Yes: because you have acted more suspiciously. Participating in a "random wagon" is a pretty minor transgression. However, voting three times in quick succession (one of which is part of that random wagon), and then coming up with a shaky and inconsistent explanation as to why you did so, is flagrantly suspicious. That's why I went for you.

I agree that Snix and VRK should stop lurking though. I know VRK is posting in other threads; why not this one?

[caf19]

Lalm, why the vote on avinashv? Your post-summary doesn't seem to paint him as your top suspect (well, you say he made a "scum post" but not why you think this is the case). We're past the random stage now.

[caf19]

Hey Roach, can we have a vote count? Thanks.

[caf19]

I don't like avinashv's eagerness to lynch already,

FoS avinashv

We have 10 days left to discuss who to lynch and we need to use this time well - given the relative dearth of meaningful discussion so far, it would be anti-town to try and end the day soon (as you seem to want to do). I agree that we should be suspicious of zeddicus for his absence, but I hardly think we've seen enough evidence to lynch him (the case against him is based mostly around his breadcrumbing a power role and his subsequent lurking - it's not a huge amount).

Also, zeddicus is NOT at "L-1" per se. He is at 3 votes, that is 4 from lynch. If he's on 4 votes, and nobody else has more than 4, then he'll be lynched on April 3 (although that is just the standard rule, I think it actually varies from game to game -

Roach

, could you clarify this game's deadline lynch rule? Thanks), but he will not die at 4 votes before the deadline. So we shouldn't expect a claim from him just yet.

Currently there are two wagons of three votes - zeddicus and UROE (by the way avinashv, do you realise you're still voting for UROE?). If anyone is unhappy with lynching either of these people and wants to start a separate wagon, now would be the time to do so. There are still votes hanging around from the random stage or pages 2 and 3 which weren't entirely serious (avinashv's vote on UROE, Cookie Monster's vote on Marmalade, Fox's vote on me etc) - I think everyone should place a serious vote and see where that takes us (as long as it doesn't result in someone getting hammered right away, obviously).

I think zeddicus and Cook!e Monster need replacing, because I don't want it just to come down to lynch-a-lurker on deadline day.

[caf19]

Hey Lalm, I'm having some trouble responding in full to all those points as I’m not sure I understand them all, but I'll have a go. I'll point it out if I need clarification on anything.

Now somebody wants to know why. Well I read only caf's post, and I find the scum feeling in 1 (detailed vote explanation feels like too much), 2 (not generous interpretation of Snix, seem like dirt-throw on unofficial), 3 (ask for prods, sorry it feels scum to me, explain again why the vote stays, yeah I dunno, I have struggle to feel caf as sincere), 4 "lies upon lies" post its feels like too much to me

Those four posts in order:

1) Was that really a detailed vote explanation? It was only a line or two. The third point in my explanation, "unintentionally deceiving the mod", was a bit tongue-in-cheek; it's the other two ("being over-aggressive, constantly unvoting and revoting") that were the real reasons. I don't think that they are overly detailed; they weren't terrible reasons for voting either.
2) It wasn't a "dirt-throw" at all: in that post I wasn't trying to make everyone suspicious of UROE in any way. I was just enquiring about the vote count, which I was genuinely unsure about at that time. As for not having a generous interpretation of Snix: no, it wasn't very generous, but if we interpreted each other generously all the time then we'd never find any scum. I don't think there is anything scummy about questioning Snix; it's a standard townie tactic.
3) I'm not sure there's much I can say about this. What makes it feel scummy to you?
4) Yeah, that was a bit too much I'll admit. I was pretty certain I'd found a mafia at that point, and probably focused too much on UROE in my early posts. Count that against me if you want, but I did have legitimate reasons to go after UROE. His more recent posts have been a bit better in my opinion so I haven't been pressuring him so much (although I haven't found a better place to put my vote at this point in time).

Well you know I will quote 8

Lalm, why the vote on avinashv? Your post-summary doesn't seem to paint him as your top suspect (well, you say he made a "scum post" but not why you think this is the case). We're past the random stage now.

Is it random to vote someone for make a scum post??

What I meant with that comment is that your vote

seemed

like a random vote. You said he made a "scum post" and voted him "for being scum", and didn't give any evidence to support that. As we were past the random stage, votes should always have reasoning behind them, and I didn't see any for yours.

This aside. I don't like that caf cared that my "summary" doesn't show avinashv as my top suspect. Feels like he hoped for a reason to vote for somebody.

I'm not sure I fully understand that: are you saying I was hoping for reasons to vote for avi, or reasons to vote for you? Neither is true though: I was simply questioning your reasons for voting avinashv. It was a perfectly acceptable thing to do and avinashv also did it.

I feel caf maybe does not want us to lynch zeddikus

That's pretty much right; I have been defending him all along and I'm not trying to hide that. My reasons were outlined in my last post: I don't think the case against him is currently strong enough to merit lynching. I agree that there should be some votes on him at this point because of his mammoth lurking; however, I would like that to be ultimately dealt with by zeddicus being replaced. Then everyone can evaluate his replacement to see if they still find him suspicious. I would much rather it happened that way than just lynching him while he's still lurking.

I think Vel-Rahn Koon might also need replacing - he's lurking just as badly as zeddicus. xXFoxXx needs a prod too, he hasn't posted in 6 days.

[caf19]

Have I really not posted in a week? Sorry. I don't need a prod, I've been viewing the thread. I'm not really being able to draw any conclusions right now, all I think we can do is that we DO act in SOME WAY. We have a couple suspicions, but we're not really acting on anything.

I don't think you can really tell everyone to start taking action if you yourself have no idea what to act upon. Do you not have any idea who you think might be scum? I'm not trying to pile pressure on you or anything - it's just that we only have a week to decide...

This whole post is scummy.

Caf has been making perfect sense. Zeddicus has done nothing and is easy mark since needs replacing.

Yeah, i thought it was a bit scummy too but i didn't want to just OMGUS in my reply. I'm pretty undecided as to whether Lalm's post was scum trying to fabricate a case against me, or just townie who's a bit misguided, possibly English not being his first language or something. What does everyone else think of Lalm?

[caf19]

This game has stalled again

We need a replacement for zeddicus ASAP in order to get things moving once more. And hopefully a bit of a deadline extension due to replacements.

[caf19]

My first defence against Lalm is that I'm a he. Not a she

Apart from that there's not too much I can say. Lalm's suspicion appears to be based broadly on gut feeling; I can accept that, but obviously I can't really post a defence to it. As for this part:

I'll give you a hint about "my case". From the same post 12, Caf also said "What does everyone else think of Lalm?" and I think this is the opportunitic side of Caf. Its like "did you guys feel he's scum too, I can vote for him safely if you guys think so."

Well yeah, I was trying to find out other people's opinions on you, but that's not such a scummy thing. Finding out people's opinions on others is useful, as tonight we'll learn the alignments of a couple of people (from the lynch and nightkill) so we'll be able to see how people react to others of certain alignments. It's not like I was trying to move people to actually lynching you either - given that it's a late stage of the day, and the game isn't moving particularly fast, I wouldn't have had time to do so. Anyway, another reason I just asked rather than OMGUS voting is because I only found you a bit scummy - not enough to deserve a vote.

zeddiCus:
Not very much scum about him when I read his posts. Not much of anything in either way. So I get incredible if Caf want to defend him like she says shes makes no secret about it.

If I understand correctly, you see zeddicus as fairly neutral at this point but you still wouldn't be averse to lynching him? That doesn't seem logical to me. If there isn't much scummy about him then surely I'm right to defend him? In my opinion, if you don't find zeddicus suspicious then your attention would be better put to use away from him. (although I guess it is... bah).

In general Lalm's recent posts make my opinion of him move slightly away from the "scum" side and towards the "noob town" (or maybe semi-experienced but not having English as a first language, as I said previously). They have a tone of honesty about them. Although I think his case is misguided, he's not trying to overstate it and he hasn't just unquestioningly jumped on the biggest wagon (something I might expect a scum of Lalm's character to do right now). I'm still keeping an eye on Lalm but I don't think he should be our lynch for today.

Anyway, we have 4 days to decide on a lynch. As a group of people have expressed suspicion of UROE, and he's been the centre of a chunk of discussion, I think he may be our best bet for today. It would be useful if everyone could say what they think of this if they haven't already.

[caf19]

You follow that by quoting two of my posts, giving only the reason that I need replacement so I am scum? I don't need a replacement. If I did, I'd ask for one. I am quite confident that not every single replacement in Mafiascum.net's history has been scum leaving the game.

I believe that Pink Puppy wasn't saying that

you

need a replacement; rather that you were jumping on the zeddicus wagon because he needed replacement, and was therefore the easiest target. Which is a legitimate criticism of you, in my opinion.

While I'm at it: can we take your unvote of UROE to mean that you wouldn't be happy with a UROE lynch today?

[caf19]

Bump

By my calculations, nobody is on even 4 votes right now, so we're definitely heading for a no-lynch as things stand. UROE is "leading" on 3 votes (Vel, Marmalade and myself) and the nearest contender is... er... me, on 2 votes (Fox and Lalm). We have about 2 RL days until deadline so we should really sort this out. As i said before, UROE's recent posts have been a bit better, but he still seems to be the best choice for a lynch given the current votes (avinashv, the only other person to come under sustained suspicion recently, is actually at 0 votes). So either we propose the lynch of someone else right now, or we just pile on UROE. Neither of which are ideal choices - everyone needs to be more active tomorrow!

I can't say that much against VRK anymore, so Unvote.

Er, do you realise you were actually unvoting Zeddicus there and not VRK?

MOD: Please clarify how many votes we need to lynch at deadline. Thanks.

[caf19]

Posts 86 and 93 outline my argument against him at the peak of my suspicions. Basically, he voted and unvoted zeddicus three times. When asked to explain, this he gave a contradictory explanation (saying the first vote was random and the second vote was for more real reasons; when in fact the real reasons he gave seemed to apply more to his first vote).

To reciprocate your question: what is the case against Zeddicus? As far as i can tell, the wagon started against him was initially random. He made a pretty blasé response to the wagon and then just lurked after that. Doesn't seem like a huge set of scumtells to me. i agree that his lurking is unacceptable, but that should be dealt with by his being replaced, not just lynching him because it's easy. A few people are lurking in this game - they should be chased up tomorrow.

[caf19]

By my calculations, nobody is on even 4 votes right now, so we're definitely heading for a no-lynch as things stand.

...This.

Pink Puppy and UROE are not voting, I suggest they place their votes before the deadline.

[caf19]

MOD: given that you've been away for a while and haven't been around to answer questions, and also given that a couple of players have been/need to be replaced, is there any chance we could have a deadline extension?

[caf19]

Hmm. I believe that Fox's vote was the fourth on UROE; meaning that it was the vote needed to lynch at deadline. With that in mind, it could be defensible, as lynching someone is doubtlessly preferable to no-lynch for the town. This fits with what he was saying in his post (i.e. that since we're at deadline we should be ensuring we lynch someone instead of voting for different un-wagoned people). It's possible that Fox's vote was just to ensure we didn't miss out on a lynch regardless of his suspicions.

That said, Fox has been contributing pretty much jack all game, leaving himself open to get on any wagon he wants. If UROE is town, then now would be the perfect time for a scum to jump on his wagon and look like he's being helpful by doing so. And Marmalade is correct to point out that Fox has never previously expressed suspicion of UROE. So the reasons for voting him are definitely not without substance.

It's time to clarify my stance. Like others, my suspicion of UROE has dwindled somewhat recently. My reasons for this are that he appears to be one of the game's most active players and hasn't done anything outwardly scummy since the triple-vote saga. However, the wagon on him shouldn't just die completely so I'm not going to unvote yet. Now that UROE's votecount has dropped below 4 again I'm going to take the chance to reread UROE, Fox, and avinashv's posts and evaluate them. I'll try to get my opinion in before the deadline - although hopefully it won't matter if I go past it, as I suspect that we'll get an extension or Roach will just forget lol.

For the record, it should also be noted that populartajo and killa seven are lurking like crap and being pretty useless. And zeddicus still needs replacing.

[caf19]

Hey all. I'm just letting you know that I'm away for about 48 hours from now so don't expect anything for a bit after this post.

I'm sticking to my guns and voting UROE for now. The wagon on Fox has grown very rapidly - it brings about the worry that the scum is helping it along. So i don't want to have a vote on him over the weekend and risk him getting hammered just yet - i want to hear a defence from him before we go anywhere near that.

[caf19]

Yeah so was i. Who was scum?