Mini 575 - Roach's Mafia! - Abandoned.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

vote: xXFoxXx

because that's way too many x's for any one person to use.

As an aside, I won't be participating in a populartajo lynch, since I'm his favorite Mod

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

VRK is fine by me

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Vote: Vel-Rahn Koon

For abbreviating!!

Doh!! OMGUS much?? SCUMSCUMSCUMSCUM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Vote: Vel-Rahn Koon

For abbreviating!!

Doh!! OMGUS much?? SCUMSCUMSCUMSCUM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How is that OMGUS? That's a random vote on the person above him, which I am about to do for hugs and fun

Unvote ; Vote: Vel-Rahn Koon AKA "VRK"

Because I voted for him in post 8

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

I think we should start a random bandwagon and see where it goes, a la Glork.

Unvote, vote: zeddicus

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Mod: Votecount, please

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

7 would be L-1.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

7 would be L-1.

Sorry 6 is L-1, 7 is lynch.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Vote: VRK

Sorry, dude. You lied to us.

Uh, what?

FoS: populartajo

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Top suspects:

VRK
UnofficialRulerofEveryone
Snix
Cookie

Here's my reasons:

VRK: starts random bandwagon on zeddicus. I REALLY don't understand why people do this. Bandwagons are good. They tell you stuff. They pressure person being bandwagoned and they tell you who jumped on at what point. But if it's done randomly... what is the point?? There's nothing for zeddicus to resond to... and if you call other people scummy for jumping on, they just excuse it by saying -- "It was only random, calm down!"

Have you read the game and looked at the time stamps? The game wasn't moving. That's the only reason I did it, plain and simple. If this is your only reason for putting me at the top of your scum list, you're gonna have to do better. This is not a scum tell.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Sorry folks, but I started losing interest in the game and then I couldn't find the time or energy to post. So here's my analysis since the last time I posted:

I don't see where VRK lied to us, what would he lie about in these 3 pages and what for?

I do see VRK as the most probable person right now to check out further, he seems to have a scummy air about him.

VRK has done about everything Snix, URoE, and Cookie have, plus tried to confuse the mod.

This is nebulous, fluffy reasoning for being suspicious of someone. Nothing I can defend myself against.

I actually didn't pay attention to the time stamps. I can understand how slow games can be frustrating and people try to generate discussion to get things moving. I still don't like random bandwagons though.

Maybe you can change my mind. Please tell me the point of a RANDOM bandwagon, and how they can be useful.

Fox answered this in the very next post, which I don't like as it seems to connect us together somehow. This "defense" is also very surprising considering that in post 60 I had a scummy air about me. Slight pro-town read out of Fox at this point.

7 would be L-1

Lie. I dont like it and I guess Im just exagerating but anyone could have believed that, and lynch someone without knowing and thinking that person was at L-1.
Making mistakes, in the other hand, its not a scumtell. Just taking notes for posterior situations.

Have you read the game and looked at the time stamps? The game wasn't moving. That's the only reason I did it, plain and simple. If this is your only reason for putting me at the top of your scum list, you're gonna have to do better. This is not a scum tell.

But this isnt a town tell. Null? Yeah! I dont have much problem with starting a random badwagon tough, this game was pretty boring. What I dont like is the way that some people have jumped into it. I need a reread.

Yeah, you're over-reacting, or exaggerating, or whatever term you used. If someone just flat-out believes someone else without verifying for themselves then they're just being foolish. I don't trust anyone else here - do you? Would you just flat believe someone when they tell you something? Also, I corrected it no more than 24 hours later (about), and zeddicus had 3 votes at the time. If he had garnered another 4 in 24 hours we'd have a bit more to worry about than whether I miscounted when a lynch would occur.

So, correct me if I'm wrong, but what you are saying here is: He crumbed power role! But, he might be trying to draw nightkills, so not have revealed himself as a power role!

As far as i can tell, it demonstrates nothing.

Yes, I am saying to Crumbed power role to stave off the bandwagon. But what would you claim that wouldn't get you killed anyways. We have an SK and a miller; and claiming miller is next to useless. So why would you even hint at being some special pro-town role? It demonstrates that you seem to be trying to subvert the bandwagon without actually doing anything that might start discussion.

Saying "I'm not going to respond until L-1" (not a direct quote) is basic saying "I see that you are trying to start discussion but I'm going to sit on my thumbs."

The way I see it: Not acting very Pro-town. Trying to confuse us.

I'm not sure that you can infer that he's crumbed anything, but I agree that just sitting on your thumbs is not very pro-town. I'm not sure that there's anything here to scrutinize, but I'll file it away for later.

So let me get this straight... you wanted him to claim off a random bandwagon? And see his refusal until L-1 as anti-town?

No, where in that post does it say that. I see his refusal to do anything until L-1 as anti-town. I see the fact that he is trying to work us around by hinting that he's a power role in a setup that only has an SK and a miller. What would he claim that would be so important that we couldn't risk the fact that it's a fake claim? I'm wondering what makes him so special.

This was an interesting point at the time, but with the reveal that the game setup was posted in the Discussion Forum, I think that this has gone by the wayside. I'm not sure that we should assume that Roach didn't change anything with the setup, but I think that this point is moot now.

post 75-80 seems like pink and snix trying to work out misunderstandings in each others arguments. I like both points of view that are being brought up. You shouldn't claim until L-1, and then claim only if you're a power role. But I also agree with snix that zed was just "rolling over" and not bothering to add anything to the discussion. I know it was a random bandwagon, but the point was to generate discussion, not get people to clam up. Again, not scummy, just not helpful. I think the most interesting thing from all this is that we can probably disconnect pink and snix from one another if one of them shows up scum.

I guess Marmalade and avinashv will need prods, they've been quiet for a while.

I know I've been fairly quiet, but I'm never too enthusiastic about early day 1. My vote still stays on UROE for his revote on zeddicus just because a bandwagon was forming (i.e. he thought he might be able to get him lynched).

meh. It was a random bandwagon. No one was going to get lynched from it anyway, so this seems like a stretch.

Sorry, I had a busy week. I'm digesting all of what I've read, but I'm suspicious of Snix for his strange analysis of the setup of this game. I'm going to look around a bit before I make a vote because I'm not 100% sure that it's a good enough scumtell.

I think snix's analysis of the game was naive, but I wouldn't say it's scummy. Again this also seems like a stretch.

So, let's look at UnofficialRulerOfEveryone's reasons for voting and unvoting zeddicus. Firstly, post 73:

Let me explain myself... 1st is OMGUS in random voting, 2nd is when I see a reason to actually voting and (not bothering to go back and check who my random vote was on) unvote and revote,

Hang on there. Let's go look at that 2nd vote - it's in post 30. In that post, UROE calls zed a "funsucker" and votes for him because zed told him to stop making jokes. That's not a "reason to actually vote", it's the least serious reason ever. So basically, that explanation is full o' crap.

I shortly unvote and then revote jumping on the bandwagon VRK started

Er, yes. That's a recount of what happened and doesn't actually explain anything.

UROE elaborates a bit more in post 81 where he says he voted zed a 3rd time because he failed to "defend himself". Defend himself against what? The only attacks on him, UROE, were your random votes, and VRK deciding to start a totally random wagon on him. And after that random wagon started you gave him all of... 13 minutes before voting for him. So, you weren't really looking for zed to defend himself, you just jumped right on after it looked like you were getting some support for your reasonless attacks.

In other words, UnofficialRulerOfEveryone = lies upon lies. Scum, in my eyes.

Much better than 84. This is something I can go back and review for later. Not quite sure I'm jumping to believing UROE=scum at this point, but this is much better than 84.

So, let's look at UnofficialRulerOfEveryone's reasons for voting and unvoting zeddicus. Firstly, post 73:

Let me explain myself... 1st is OMGUS in random voting, 2nd is when I see a reason to actually voting and (not bothering to go back and check who my random vote was on) unvote and revote,

Hang on there. Let's go look at that 2nd vote - it's in post 30. In that post, UROE calls zed a "funsucker" and votes for him because zed told him to stop making jokes. That's not a "reason to actually vote", it's the least serious reason ever. So basically, that explanation is full o' crap.

I shortly unvote and then revote jumping on the bandwagon VRK started

Er, yes. That's a recount of what happened and doesn't actually explain anything.

UROE elaborates a bit more in post 81 where he says he voted zed a 3rd time because he failed to "defend himself". Defend himself against what? The only attacks on him, UROE, were your random votes, and VRK deciding to start a totally random wagon on him. And after that random wagon started you gave him all of... 13 minutes before voting for him. So, you weren't really looking for zed to defend himself, you just jumped right on after it looked like you were getting some support for your reasonless attacks.

In other words, UnofficialRulerOfEveryone = lies upon lies. Scum, in my eyes.

It wasn't really a second vote, I'm just lazy and didn't go back to notice that he was my random vote. There is no reason to jump on me for a joke, this is happening to someone who is obviously protown in another one of my games and it is ridiculous. I see jumping on someone trying to make a joke into a real reason looks scummy to me, which is why this vote had a "reason", which is why I voted for him. I never said it explained anything, I just didn't want to leave anything out and get jumped on for that. I said look at the time stamps BEFORE the random wagon, he was given almost 13 HOURS, and the attack on me for that is also, ridiculous.

I have to say that VRK's random bandwagonning is scummier,

but has been forgotten because of what I did. Please re-read and try to understand somethings I said. Any response?

Yet you were happy to jump right in. Interesting.

There is no reason to jump on me for a joke, this is happening to someone who is obviously protown in another one of my games and it is ridiculous. I see jumping on someone trying to make a joke into a real reason looks scummy to me, which is why this vote had a "reason", which is why I voted for him.

OK, fair enough, so you did have a reason to vote for him. Except that was the reason for your FIRST vote and your second vote still doesn't really have a reason. This is at direct odds with what you said in post 73:

Let me explain myself... 1st is OMGUS in random voting, 2nd is when I see a reason to actually voting

What's up with the change of story?

I said look at the time stamps BEFORE the random wagon, he was given almost 13 HOURS,

Er, 13 hours isn't actually that long. Maybe 48 I could understand, but 13? Doesn't seem like an honest reason to me - I can't really envision you going "look, it's been 13 hours without that guy defending himself, I'd better put my vote on him for pressure". It seems far more likely that you thought to yourself, "look, someone else has voted for Zeddicus, now that I've got some support for my vote I can put it back on without looking scummy!"

Any response?

Yes: your explanations are largely unsatisfactory. However I'm pleased that you actually bothered to come out and defend yourself, unlike the multiple people who are happy just to lurk. So, I will take some time to evaluate whether your actions are scum or noob town. My vote stays on you for the moment though - you're not in immediate danger, and it seems to be provoking some nice responses

Anyway, time to call some people out.
Fox, you've been quiet for a while - any response to Marmalade's point about you in post 87?
Cookie Monster, you said you'd post on Monday... it's now Wednesday and we're still waiting. Share your opinions!
There are others who probably need prodding. Mod?

<3 for Caf, I like this whole post.

It is being ignored, I am the only one being attacked, VRK started it, give me a reason for that. I haven't changed the story, other people have just said different things about it, the first vote was OMGUS, but it was in

random voting

stage. Also, Marmalade, if you are going to abbreviations at least make them make sense VKR and UEOU are wrong, it is VRK and UROE. Also, if you re-read VRK has said little since the start of the "random bandwagon".

Coming under fire and you're trying to redirect suspicions. Also interesting.

I definitely agree that UROE's triple voting on zeddicus is suspicious. But I don't understand the "changing his story" argument from caff, and I don't understand how marmalade could understand it or agree. Maybe this is just me. But I need clarification on this argument.

I also think that it's very suspicious that VRK and Snix has disappeared after coming under fire. And I do not like VRK's response to my suspicions. This is what he said:

Have you read the game and looked at the time stamps? The game wasn't moving. That's the only reason I did it, plain and simple. If this is your only reason for putting me at the top of your scum list, you're gonna have to do better. This is not a scum tell.

I don't like when people respond by saying "I am not scummy and if you think I am, your are stupid." First of all, because saying something isn't scummy is not really a defense. Tells me nothing. And second, because saying someone is dumb for suspecting you is bullying. And trying to get them to leave you alone by insulting them. I don't like that at all.

Plus, that was his last post! He's like "I am not scummy" and disappears.

I didn't realize I was under fire to begin with. I did not say you were stupid, I didn't say you were dumb, I didn't insult you. Stop the drama - you're trying to put words in my mouth. I already stated what was up with the random band wagon. With no response from you concerning that answer one would think that my response was good enough. Apparently not, so let me reiterate.

The game was going slow and I was trying to get something started. In you suspicions list, you listed me at the top of that list for starting a random wagon. If that's your only reason for having me first, then you do have to do better. Starting random wagons is not a scum tell, at best it's a null tell. Therefore you can't get any information as to my alignment from it. I don't have a problem with you questioning my reasons for the bandwagon, I do have a problem with you trying to put me first on you scum list for something that amounts to a null tell.

caf and marmalade, any reason they were left out of this?

Yes: because you have acted more suspiciously. Participating in a "random wagon" is a pretty minor transgression. However, voting three times in quick succession (one of which is part of that random wagon), and then coming up with a shaky and inconsistent explanation as to why you did so, is flagrantly suspicious. That's why I went for you.

I agree that Snix and VRK should stop lurking though. I know VRK is posting in other threads; why not this one?

Complete apathy is why I haven't been posting here. Hopefully this post makes up for it.

Marmalade Wrote; (quote button isn't working for me)

xXFoxXx wrote:
Unvote Vote: Caf19

For calling it a "Rival Badwagon"


Um, is this serious, or am I dumb?

It's not serious, it was an early vote before we really had much discussion going, and I'd already accidentally OMGUS'd (randomvoting VRK after he voted me), so I changed my vote and stuck it on caf19, simply because I don't really understand why you would start a "rival bandwagon".

Not to be taken as anything active.

PS: I AM being a little quiet, but there's not really a whole lot for me to say, anything I could say would really be just repeating everybody else. I do think a few certain individuals are acting scummier than others, and to different degrees, but I don't really see anything that hasn't be said that needs to.

[/quote]

I've found plenty to say. Whether you're a novice scum hunter or scum, I can't say at this point. This also applies to Snix's 103.

For now

vote avinashv

for being scum

?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

Zeddicus is also absent in another game I have with him, so I think he may need replacement.

vote: VRK

to get the ball rolling. My reasons have already been posted, plus he hasn't responded to me.

Your reasons are bad, but at least you're consistent.

If you'll note I said if he picks up the prod but continues to lurk. If he really needs a replacement than he should get one and I'll decide later about his replacement.

My case has already been layed out. He seems to be bread crumbing a role that we cannot be sure we have. (something very pro-town) But other than that he seems to be apt to hang. With the deadline, 4 would be a lynch correct? So he is currently at L-1 and yet even when he gets to where he said he'd respond he has yet to do so. He's been lurking ever since the bandwagon on him lost interest and seems to be reluctant to save himself. If he's some self-destructive role he'd still be hurting the town, right?

Just because his behavior is anti-town does not make him scum. Lynch All Lurkers is crap, and Yos would argue with me, but I think we can do better than waste lynches on lurkers.

Apologies for the lack of input.

I'm game for a Zeddicus lynch; I agree with the arguments laid out against him. Lalm still hasn't replied to my post, but hasn't replied at all, so I'll chalk that down to a lack of logging in for now.

Zeddicus' last vote seemed out of context, plus the fact that he was already voting for UOE and didn't unvote.

Mod

, how did you handle that? He also said that at L -1 he'll "react by claiming". I don't see that. I'll hammer tomorrow if there's no response from him on the matter.

Wow, that's crap, and I don't see how you can agree with the arguments laid out against him.. I agree with caf's 118.

Yes, I do realize who I am voting for. Going by the votecount, I don't see a BW on UOE. I actually meant I'll hammer at deadline, assuming he is still at 3 votes, if there's no response. I'll admit, that was my bad. There are 5 other people in 2 BW's, but I am the one who is eager to lynch? I guess the start of this post may clarify that, I held off a vote purely because I'd like to hear from him an give him a chance.

Caf's point was more of "If your vote isn't serious, simply unvote" There is no need to unvote and then revote immediately. I also don't want Lynch-a-Lurker as this goes off very little other than "These two are lurking, this one has one vote, this one has none, vote for the one that has one vote already" logic. I believe I have 2 votes Zed has 3 votes Caf has 1 vote and Marmalade has 1 vote, but not 100% sure.

*GoodPosting*

Great, now comment on posts before 34 and re-read so you understand what went on up to that point

Believe it or not since 34 was my post, I already read those messages before that.

Tell me if there's a particular thing you want me to notice.

about avinashv

I'm digesting all of what I've read, but I'm suspicious of Snix for his strange analysis of the setup of this game. I'm going to look around a bit before I make a vote because I'm not 100% sure that it's a good enough scumtell.

I guess I will take my vote back. I read this more like "here is a (bad) reason for lynch". But really he only says it's his vote. I could say it's scum to be reluctant to vote. But you don't really want to vote without understanding if it's the best. so

unvote avinashv

In my previous post I sometimes put ?? if I didn't understand something. Maybe if somebody want they can look for parts they can answer.

I'm read my previous post again and feel the scums don't jump out at me. I think Snix hurt the townbut I dunno he's scum.

My GUT says

vote caf

Now somebody wants to know why. Well I read only caf's post, and I find the scum feeling in 1 (detailed vote explanation feels like too much), 2 (not generous interpretation of Snix, seem like dirt-throw on unofficial), 3 (ask for prods, sorry it feels scum to me, explain again why the vote stays, yeah I dunno, I have struggle to feel caf as sincere), 4 "lies upon lies" post its feels like too much to me, skip a few, 8 is to me.

Well you know I will quote 8

Lalm, why the vote on avinashv? Your post-summary doesn't seem to paint him as your top suspect (well, you say he made a "scum post" but not why you think this is the case). We're past the random stage now.

Is it random to vote someone for make a scum post??

This aside. I don't like that caf cared that my "summary" doesn't show avinashv as my top suspect. Feels like he hoped for a reason to vote for somebody.

I probably won't clarify anything. But somebody will ask.

Between zeddikus and unofficial I prefer lynch zeddikus. That's just "FYI"

I feel caf maybe does not want us to lynch zeddikus. See, if you gave caf another suspect he can stop try to advocate lynching unofficial with not very great reasons in my opinion! Also if mod replaces zeddikus then he will probably not be lynch. Wild theory huh.

Vote-hopping, bad reasoning for the votes. I don't like this post. I agree with caf 100% that if you're going to do a summary of people, and then vote for someone, then you should be voting for your top suspect. To do otherwise looks like you're being opportunistic or trying to gauge the strength of a weak case by looking at the responses you're going to get from the vote.

Why do you prefer a zed lynch vs. UROE?

As of now, my top suspect is UROE. I'll wait for everyone who wants to comment on this to do so before voting or anything else.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Well I had 2.5 pages worth of stuff to comment on. Sorry it took me so long to come back to the game.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

OMG longest post ever.

Not quite, yet it still made my head hurt.

@VRK Glad you are back. My one question: How am I your top suspect? I recognize little has gone on in this game, but in that long post you attack me for redirecting fire and vote hopping in random stage, but you also comment on my post defending caf from avi as *GoodPosting*. Most people only say that when they believe a post is good in content and pro-town.

It was a good post, but let's face it: if scum were to just make crappy posts all game long we'd be done by day 3 or 4 or however many scum we have here and the game wouldn't be any fun. Just because I label a post from someone as good, doesn't mean that they haven't done scummy stuff.

I have tried to explain my votes on zed the best I can, 1 random vote in random stage, nothing wrong there ; 2 unvote and revote, didn't even look back at who my random vote was on, regarded by some as OMGUS ; I unvoted to cut down on my own BS, and then 3 revote after your random bandwagon. I also love how you dance around the fact that starting a random bandwagon is scummy at all, not a null-tell, but it really isn't a strong scum-tell at all. My scumdar .5 on you .5 on zedd.

Your second-to-last sentence here is a problem. I'm not dancing around anything. Starting a random bandwagon is NOT scummy. That's the point. I don't think I danced around that at all.

The redirecting was so we wouldnt head into a never ending tunnel.

No. When you come under fire, you answer every attack to the best of your ability. You don't point to other people about what they've done wrong as if you're using that as an excuse, which is what you're doing. It seems to me that you're trying to deflect possible suspicions against you away and move suspicions back onto someone else in the game.

Your job, as a pro-town player, is to scum hunt and defend yourself as best you can. Failing the defense, you should be willing to get lynched for the better of the team, because you've got nothing to hide from anyone as a pro-town player, and your death will provide information about those who were focusing on your lynch.

I've also noted that you didn't bother commenting on my points from your posts 92 and 95, but once again you're trying to restart an attack on me for starting a random bandwagon, which is not scummy.

You're not answering to suspicions, you're redirecting, you're hopping on and off with your votes, and in general your posts sound very nervous. That's why you're my number one suspect.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Vote: UROE

Why hasn't he been lynched yet?

Still waiting on Lalmtreasteek to answer my question in post 129.


Roach, vote count please.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Ok VRK

Vote-hopping, bad reasoning for the votes. I don't like this post. I agree with caf 100% that if you're going to do a summary of people, and then vote for someone, then you should be voting for your top suspect. To do otherwise looks like you're being opportunistic or trying to gauge the strength of a weak case by looking at the responses you're going to get from the vote.

This' seems not very relevant. I didn't say avinashv wasn't my top suspect. When I wrote the post he was. Not "by a mile" since I feel like I read it/him incorrectly then. What was scummy for me was Caf concern that the "subtance" of the summary post maybe not seemed to show a "motivation" for an avinash vote. Why? Because maybe she would like a reason to vote for somebody with a better reason than for unofficial.

I don't understand you people, who might say that voting for avinashv or for Caf, could be opportunitic.

Why do you prefer a zed lynch vs. UROE?

Its' because of what I said about Caf preference against zed lynch.

I think Caf is probably scum. You guys saying she makes the most sense. Yes she does. She makeso much sense, so that I didn't even think about her very much, when I write the my summary post. Only I read the posts by her afterwards, I feel subtly that she's scummy.

I can't make a case about Caf. Maybe I shouldn't try because it let Caf say "I'm pretty undecided as to whether Lalm's post was scum trying to fabricate a case against me". I don't want to make a case, I only want to explain a little.

I'll give you a hint about "my case". From the same post 12, Caf also said "What does everyone else think of Lalm?" and I think this is the opportunitic side of Caf. Its like "did you guys feel he's scum too, I can vote for him safely if you guys think so."

Also said "i thought it was a bit scummy too but i didn't want to just OMGUS in my reply". Nice for me that I don't get the OMGUS until somebody-not-Caf says I'm scum. is weird isn't it to say, "if I didn't want to look like OMGUS then I had just vote for the scum I believe in."

Ok I can understand what you're saying here about your gut feelings for caf, but you're treading awfully close to a Too-Townie fallacy with your explanation. I'm in another game where I've got scummy feelings from another player, and I understand how hard it can be to sometimes try to articulate them.

Ok more about zeddikus and unofficial.

zeddiCus:
Not very much scum about him when I read his posts. Not much of anything in either way. So I get incredible if Caf want to defend him like she says shes makes no secret about it.

Cafscum would be defending a townie to make himself look better for later days. Caftown would do the same if the

argument

presented against that person was weak or illogical (this assumes best-play on Caftown's part). So from your point of view, Lalm, is caf's defense based on attacking other arguments against Zed, or true buddying?

From the bottom of page 6, I'm liking Marmalade and pinkpuppy's contributions. I'm not sure we're going to get anything else out of anyone, which is a shame. I'm starting to find my thoughts echoing puppy and caf that the game's just being neglected.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Everyone want to declare their role? I was a Townie.