Thespival Mafia (Denouement)

[Mastermind of Sin]

I think MeMe is smart enough to find the flaw I pointed out. It was the very first thing that came to mind when I saw the plan. It's not like she put it out there without checking it over. She claimed that she couldn't find any flaws, which implied that she had checked it over for problems. I think she was trying to pull a fast one on us, because it does look like a decent plan on the surface.

However, I'm amenable to a farside lynch still, since I think they're both scum. The evidence against farside is definitely more solid, at least.

[mathcam]

PJ: Well, I hope you can get things worked out. I think you have the highest number of points marked "Good point!" in my notes.

MoS:
Smart enough to figure it out? Of course.

Did

figure it out? Apparently not.

The two, while related, are not the same.

To re-iterate, the only way I see that this can be interpreted as scummy is if you believe that not only did MeMe know about the flaw, but also believed that no one else would be able to find it. This position seems completely untenable to me.

Cam

[petroleumjelly]

In my procrastination from real life, I was making my vote list for Day Three of this game, and I ran into this doozy:

Mafia wouldn't care to attack claimed Doc #2. Because they can always NK him anyway, they don't need to compromise themselves during the lynch. And the cop is dead. Mafiosi don't have to worry about an unknown doctor protecting an outed cop with results every day.

Summary:

95 # PJ - scum
91 # RossWilliam - scum
33 # MeMe – scum

Hrm. Now let's review:

This game just got very depressing very quickly. In any case,

Vote: farside22

. I'm honestly not sure what to think of this game at the moment, because farside22 surviving the night under any circumstances seems highly unlikely to me.

Very tempted to speculate about night-killing roles, but I'm not sure that will get us anywhere.

...

Just high-lighted my vote-notes, comforted to see that all of Sarcastro, Tally, and alky were on the Farside22-wagon yesterday. I think given the dead Doctor, the make-up of the bandwagon, and the fact that Farside22 was not nightkilled are pretty good indicators we've got a scum.

Right with you, pj.

vote: farside22

yeah. yesterday I was with enough potential doubt not to vote farside, but the odds are so stacked against her claim being valid now that I think it's reached an ultimatum.

vote: farside22

Inconsistency, much? The first three people to attack Farside22 after it was clear he was effectively claiming a second Doc were myself, MeMe, and RossWilliam, in that order. The three of us are on the top of Beep! Beep!'s list as "scum". He then says "mafia wouldn't dare attack claimed Doc #2". This is as inconsistent as inconsistencies go. I would like an explanation for this posthaste.

[petroleumjelly]

Mod

, the vote count in Post 1262 appears to be incorrect; Battle Mage had switched his vote from Farside22 to MeMe in Post #1257. Was this intentional?

[petroleumjelly]

I will regret making this post multiple times over, but I cannot concentrate on the essay I should be writing right now, so I might as well do something "productive".

1.)

I need to emphasize something, because nobody seems to be getting it. I think the best move for the town is to lynch

as if there is not a jester.

Why?

You can bet your bottom dollar that if a scum thinks they have a chance of being lynched,

they are going to try to play like they think a jester would play

. The strategy is so completely obvious, and I know I have done the same as scum in scumchat games (one in particular had the final day last

over an hour

because I had the town so worried I might be a jester).

There has probably been at least one mafiate who has tried to paint themselves (however successfully) as the Jester all game, even without having been put under pressure. Additionally (like I have said before), focusing on the Jester allows a mac-and-cheese (it's

so

easy!) distancing tactic of "I think X (i.e. my partner) might be the Jester".

This is almost like the "Hero" role in Kingmaker; everybody worries about it so much, but the better play is simply to ignore it until you

have

to deal with it. To do otherwise is a waste of time, and will only leave you into second-guessing everything you think.

Lynching people who 'might' be Jester is only going to

take away playing options from the scum

.

I

do not consider the jester "winning" equivalent to the town "losing" when the game continues. If the town gets second, I will

not

be placing it as a "loss" in my statistics.

I would rather lynch the Jester than a townsperson

, when it comes right down to it, and that's how I am going to play.

2.)

I still don't like the general feel from MoS's posts. I've mentioned this before in Post #368. His commentary is sporadic, and his latest attack on MeMe – easily the peak of his activity – appears opportunistic.

[Afternote: It appears MoS mentioned he would be gone for a while in Post #425; I should keep this in mind].

3.)

I dislike Post #394 by Battle Mage immensely.

First he uses WIFOM ("This is rather insulting. That as scum, i would be so controversial so early on and basically invite attention onto myself. ").

Second, he completely misses the initial point of Quickben's post (i.e. "When you know a gambit works for the town, try shutting up").

Third, he attacks Quickben for 'wanting to do the same thing as Battle Mage' (lynch the jester on Day One), which is skirting Quickben's more substantial point: that people who are specifically disadvantaged by plans tend to be the one's who argue against them the most.

Fourth, he suggests that Quickben's commentary is not even worth reading ("You expect me to read the rest of your comments? ").

4.)

hasdgfas, were you told

exactly

what "power" you gained last night?

5.)

Anyone voting for Sarc is dumb. An FoS i can just about tolerate, because there is no doubt that his play is scummy.

FoS's are lame. Dont be a pussy. Make it a vote.

Explain.

6.)

Dont be immature.

*Immaturity*

Explain.

7.)

The more I read Battle Mage's posts, the more I am realizing he has been consistently focusing on finding the Jester more than he has focused on finding scum. Every other post seems to reference somebody possibly being the Jester.

FoS: Battle Mage

.

8.)

How didn't I notice this before? Post 740 is a complete cop-out explanation. Although he technically 'answers' Talitha's question, he pointedly avoids denying the possibility that he is scum.

FoS: Pooky

.

9.)

MeMe explicitly asked the town to "poke holes" in her plan if they thought something was wrong with it. Given the caliber of players in the game, it is unlikely that MeMe saw problems in her plan when she made it; if she

had

seen the flaw, I think it is very clear

she would not have suggested the plan in the first place

. I'm actually inclined to think her plan was made in good faith.

10.)

First, I think I sincerely believe he [Pooky] would not have killed Tally as scum (though obviously his co-scum could have out-voted him), and second, I think this set of plays is more likely to come from a Jester than a scum.

Three nightkills = possibly more than one scumgroup = not necessary for 'co-scum' to kill Tally. Do you have any information which suggests that all this killing is coming from a single group, by chance?

~~~~~

I think I am starting to get a handle on this game.

{Beep! Beep!, Holy, Pooky} all seem intertwined to me – and not in a good way. I would not be surprised one iota if this threesome is all scum together. I do not understand how Beep! Beep! goes from mentioning Pooky has been on "five wagons" to not even giving him a "scum score" based off the voting system. Additionally, when Pooky votes/unvotes without explanation, Beep! Beep! says nothing about it; when

I

unvote without explanation, he is all over me like a pack of dogs on a three-legged cat.

Beep! Beep! calling Pooky "town" for his plan is completely stupid. Why

can't

scum do

exactly what Pooky did

? It runs a 0% risk for scum. Any partners of Pooky would have probably been told in advance about the 'plan', and hence they would not claim. Pooky might even get a town-role to out themselves in the process. If such were to happen, Pooky would then likely point the finger at some random player (who the town probably suspects anyways), and then try to squeeze two lynches out of it. Given that the town has already lost

seven

players, the scum can probably afford a war of attrition, such that Pooky would not be overly concerned about surviving throughout the entire game.

Holy has been implicitly defending wolfcrier/Beep! Beep! all game on the basis of "gee, it looks like he is the jester". wolfcrier/Beep! Beep! has also struck me as individually scummy all game. I also think Pooky is probably individual scum based

solely

on his response to Talitha post I mentioned above.

Holy is the contingency, so I would prefer to lynch either Beep! Beep! or Pooky. I am honestly not sure what to think about Farside22 at the moment. I am not particularly inclined to believe a second Doctor, but I am becoming less and less enthused by those people who have been attacking her.

I want the three of these players to

all comment on each other

. Pooky needs to comment on Beep! Beep! and Holy; Beep! Beep! needs to comment on Pooky and Holy; and Holy needs to comment on Beep! Beep! and Pooky.

I also believe Battle Mage to be individually suspicious, but I cannot say for sure if I think he would be part of this particular grouping; more likely I would need to adjust it completely, but I'm tired and not going to bother.

The biggest problem with this game is that I do not think anybody is particularly town-looking. Everybody I

thought

was probably town has been killed.

Vote: Beep! Beep!

.

[Battle Mage]

I'm really not following what you mean by "less of a time constraint". Unless you believe it was a guarantee she was going to be lynched and her death would free up the time. These games take time to play, and for any sort of decent player the time it takes out of a day should be equal throughout the game.

no im referring to the fact that her marvellous plan had fallen through and she was no longer under pressure to keep explaining and defending it. Maybe im being harsh, but i dont see how deadlines at work really correllate with replacement out of a game which might require 10 minutes of reading every day. I cant see a Mafia player of MeMe's calibre just dropping out of a game at such a time, as town, with that excuse...

BM

[Battle Mage]

3.)

I dislike Post #394 by Battle Mage immensely.

First he uses WIFOM ("This is rather insulting. That as scum, i would be so controversial so early on and basically invite attention onto myself. ").

As far as i'm aware, WIFOM isnt a scumtell. Its not as if i was using it as a defence for scummy play. I stand by my comment-i dont like people insinuating that i am really crap as scum, even if it was true. -.-

Second, he completely misses the initial point of Quickben's post (i.e. "When you know a gambit works for the town, try shutting up").

Yeh we've been over this already. In actual fact, i'd say the message of Quickbens post was that trying to get the Jester lynched on Day 1 is scummy. Maybe you are creditting him with more intelligence than i am.

Third, he attacks Quickben for 'wanting to do the same thing as Battle Mage' (lynch the jester on Day One), which is skirting Quickben's more substantial point: that people who are specifically disadvantaged by plans tend to be the one's who argue against them the most.

Wait, so you're saying i'm a Jester now? 0.o
For the record, my arguing against Quickben was that he claimed something was a scumtell against me, and then committed the same scumtell himself. Thats hypocrisy.

Fourth, he suggests that Quickben's commentary is not even worth reading ("You expect me to read the rest of your comments? ").

If people start a post in an illogical, hypocritical way, it is quite understandable that you might feel responding to a large post that continues in the same vein, is pointless.

5.)

Anyone voting for Sarc is dumb. An FoS i can just about tolerate, because there is no doubt that his play is scummy.

FoS's are lame. Dont be a pussy. Make it a vote.

Explain.

Different circumstances invoke different approaches. When someone looks strongly like the Jester, voting for them is bad. In general however, someone who uses an FoS, when a vote would perhaps be more appropriate, is fishy, and definitely worth questioning about it.

6.)

Dont be immature.

*Immaturity*

Explain.

Erm, i think its you that needs to explain here. Is this just a general personal attack, or are you actually trying to make a relevant point?

7.)

The more I read Battle Mage's posts, the more I am realizing he has been consistently focusing on finding the Jester more than he has focused on finding scum. Every other post seems to reference somebody possibly being the Jester.

FoS: Battle Mage

.

I dont want the Jester to win. Not after the ABR fiasco a little while back. 0.o

BM

[Battle Mage]

Wow, so much to say. I'll try not to cram it all in to one post.

First, meta-stuff about recent events:

I think a scumbag who didnt have the time to give it a decent shot bailed, and left it to someone who could fare better-hence Mathcam.BM

First of all, wouldn't a responsible townie who didn't have the time to give it a decent shot

also

want to leave it to someone else?

No, i dont think so. Not MeMe at least. She is far away one of the best players on the site, and i think she is aware of this. I find it hard to believe that she would consider the town to have a better chance with her not there, even if she had hand-picked a highly capable replacement.

Second, I don't think there's much for her to defend. She proposed a plan with a gaping wide hole in it, and made no bones about retracting it once the fatal flaw had been demonstrated to her. Unless the suggestion is that she intentionally came up with a majorly flawed plan and hoped that this pool of remarkably experienced players just wouldn't find it, I can't fathom what people can find scummy about it.

THIS is a fair point.

Unvote

BM

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Yea PJ

Scum are gonna go war of attrition with town in a game with 3 nightkills.

That's genius

what day is it btw?

A lil early for war of attrition wouldn't you say?

If I was scum, there's no way in hell I stick my neck out that far and you know it.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

yea

scum would act as jester

that's good idea PJ

except if a Jester gets lynched or nightkilled.

Then that scumbag is a little bit screwed enh?

[Beep! Beep!]

Pooky:

Pooky is an obvious target for investigation, and I do believe that he's been cleared by the dead cop via what seems to be a pretty obvious breadcrumb mixed with some obfuscation to me. It's not impossible, but I doubt scum would be on every wagon. They would pace themselves a little bit more. And he's acting town, IMO.

BM:

Has been useful, passionate, and pro-town. He's on the ball.

Holy:

The length of her posts and their relative infrequency is a little weakish, however, she's blessed with honest common sense, and seems town. She doesn't stand out, except the players I believe are sum keep bringing her up.

PJ:

Scum with a keen sense of observation, attention to detail, and a fluent debating style. Seems to give everyone on my scumlist a free pass. Seems to think everyone I think is town, is scum. How cool is that?

MeMe:

Scum that ran away.

Farside:

Still scum, keeping low profile hoping other wagons will take off.

Ross William:

Still scum, trying hard to be non-confrontanional. Which is effectively working, good strategy. He sure isn't scumhunting.

CKD:

Still Jester. But PJ doesn't want to worry about Jesters, that's OK. CKD is not looking for scum, he's all over the map with contrary opinions, trying to get himself lynched.

[Beep! Beep!]

{Beep! Beep!, Holy, Pooky} all seem intertwined to me – and not in a good way. I would not be surprised one iota if this threesome is all scum together. I do not understand how Beep! Beep! goes from mentioning Pooky has been on "five wagons" to not even giving him a "scum score" based off the voting system.

I continue to believe Pooly is cleared by the cop.

You know why Holy, Pooky and myself might seem connected (I find it odd that you're not including BM, but hey)? Maybe we're all town, how about that? You complain that we're all on the farside22 wagon, and that gives you bad vibes. You know who else voted farside22, by your own account? Yourself, MeMe, and Ross William. By your own logic, all three of you are similarly connected.

Holy has been implicitly defending wolfcrier/Beep! Beep! all game on the basis of "gee, it looks like he is the jester".

Not recently, has she?

Holy is the contingency

There is no reason whatsoever to lynch Holy.

I am honestly not sure what to think about Farside22 at the moment. I am not particularly inclined to believe a second Doctor, but I am becoming less and less enthused by those people who have been attacking her.

But does that mean farside22 is more likely to be town? Remember that MeMe, Ross William and YOURSELF have voted Farside22. You sound like you make sense, but your scum agenda is showing.

The biggest problem with this game is that I do not think anybody is particularly town-looking.

Now, that's something a scum would say: "I do not think anybody is particularly town-looking." I personally think a lot of players are pro-town.

Unvote, vote: petroleumjelly

[curiouskarmadog]

Beep, again, where am I contray? Nice OMGUS vote on PJ too...how many times are you going to do that?

PJ, you dont think Beep is the jester?

[Beep! Beep!]

Beep, again, where am I contrayy?

Look at your own posts! You're defending farside (pretending that you deem my case is crap, as if I'm the genius behind this case, when I am simply putting together what others have said.

You keep saying I'm the Jester, when YOU are the Jester.

You said Ross William's play was SO OBVIOUS AS SCUM that he had to be the Jester, then you unvote Ross William "now I cant be sure his horrid play is not purposeful" - But then later you agree with Ross William, who is also defending Farside22 today, like you are. You can't even defend Farside22, he's pretty indefensible, so you attack me instead.

That's right, you come after me... which is totally what a smart Jester would do. Come after a very aggressive and active player, agree with the nonsense arguments made against that player, etc. I told you it's not going to work. Aren't you afraid you're going to be nightkilled, and lose? Hurry up and find some other player that will bite.

Uhh, CKD... grow a brain. Or something.

nice... am I wrong?

Next thing you do is to vote Talitha.

Nice OMGUS vote on PJ too...

It's NOT OMGUS. I've had a hunch PJ was scum, and his recent posting leads me to believe I might be on the right track.

PJ, you dont think Beep is the jester?

To believe that I were the Jester, PJ would have to believe that yesterday, when my predecessor was about to be lynched (and win gloriously, if he were the Jester), that he just gave up. He'd also have to believe that I managed to get myself out of a lynch, being the Jester and all.

[RossWilliam]

CKD, PJ just stated how he's gonna play like there's no jester in this game. Even if he thinks Beep is the jester, it's not gonna make him change his opinions on her.

[Beep! Beep!]

CKD, PJ just stated how he's gonna play like there's no jester in this game. Even if he thinks Beep is the jester, it's not gonna make him change his opinions on her.

PJ thinks I'm scum, so that PJ's opinion my my being the Jester or not is not relevant.

RW, you have to read between the lines.

CKD is only trying to steer the discussion away from his own Jesterness. That's the reason why he's asking another player to discuss whether or not I'm the Jester. CKD wants to be lynched, but so he needs us to suspect some other player of being Jester. Also, CKD needs to rile up an aggressive player to think he's Mafia and go after him, but not too much that he'd be suspected of being the Jester.

I'm ten steps ahead of CKD.

[farside22]

Holy:

The length of her posts and their relative infrequency is a little weakish, however, she's blessed with honest common sense, and seems town. She doesn't stand out, except the players I believe are sum keep bringing her up.

Farside:

Still scum, keeping low profile hoping other wagons will take off.

How is Holy town. She was on day 2 talking about the doc. (aka me) still being alive and looking at me the next day, that is so full of WIFOM it isn't even funny.
Second I'm voting Holy I hadn't changed my vote to MeMe so how am I hoping another wagon will take off. Your lack of brillance has yet to impress me.
Oh and nice dig from mathcam on me. It was an FOS not a vote because I don't completed disagree with MeMe's thought, but her idea of going after a Jester instead of focusing on scum deserved an FOS.

[hasdgfas]

PJ: yes

[Beep! Beep!]

How is Holy town. She was on day 2 talking about the doc. (aka me) still being alive and looking at me the next day, that is so full of WIFOM it isn't even funny.

How is she scum exactly?

[Beep! Beep!]

PJ: yes

Amen! Yes what?

[farside22]

How is Holy town. She was on day 2 talking about the doc. (aka me) still being alive and looking at me the next day, that is so full of WIFOM it isn't even funny.

How is she scum exactly?

I pointed out her WIFOM from the day before and her lack of scum hunting in all. Now how is she town because you haven't said why.

[Beep! Beep!]

How is Holy town. She was on day 2 talking about the doc. (aka me) still being alive and looking at me the next day, that is so full of WIFOM it isn't even funny.

How is she scum exactly?

I pointed out her WIFOM from the day before and her lack of scum hunting in all. Now how is she town because you haven't said why.

WIFOM isn't scummy when you're talking about a player with a redundant Doctor claim, with full doctor powers, that hasn't been nightkilled. That doesnt' mean that Holy is scum, it means that YOU are scum.

Lack of scumhunting? She's weak in that department, but her judgment has been sound. I see weak townie where you see something deserving of a full blown vote.

You're giving me Jester vibes again. You haven't been lynched yet. That in itself is interesting. Either you're scum, or the scumbags want to take out the Jester at night. Other players may have other interpretations.

We should lynch PJ, MeMe, or Ross William.

[Holy]

I

do not consider the jester "winning" equivalent to the town "losing" when the game continues. If the town gets second, I will

not

be placing it as a "loss" in my statistics.

I would rather lynch the Jester than a townsperson

, when it comes right down to it, and that's how I am going to play.

While I, prefer lynching whom-who-looks-all-over-like-scum over the-obviously-provoking-jester or likely-townsperson-without-worries, and that's how I am going to play.

Holy has been implicitly defending wolfcrier/Beep! Beep! all game on the basis of "gee, it looks like he is the jester".

Lol! It's because I honestly think he is. If you want to vote him, please feel free to do it, but I won't join the bandwagon though.

I want the three of these players to

all comment on each other

. Pooky needs to comment on Beep! Beep! and Holy; Beep! Beep! needs to comment on Pooky and Holy; and Holy needs to comment on Beep! Beep! and Pooky.

Hmm, I don't think Pooky's attempts to trap scum looks like a scum-plan, he seemed throwing it without nothing to lose feel and hopefully feel that we might bust a sweating-scum-that-worries slipped. And with his ways when launching it, it didn't smell came from scum.
While your recent analysis, smell like it.
As for Beep!, my comments about her already all over the place, I suppose.

[hasdgfas]

know power

[Beep! Beep!]

know power

Amen, whaddya mean? In two words or less.