Mini #564 - Mafia in Crubtown - Game Over

[Akonas]

Vote: windkirby

.

Hello all!

[Akonas]

unvote; vote: mozsuggs

.

Get your head out your arse.

[Akonas]

Vote: vikingfan

. You are not taking this nearly seriously enough.

[Akonas]

Vote: QuantumFruit

. You are taking this far too seriously.

[Akonas]

I think there is a connotative difference between defending oneself and being defensive.

Yes, but they might as well be the same thing. Because neither really matters, neither is going to lynch someone, and not a whole lot can be read into either. They might be different words, but come on.

Wrong. You can read into a joke vote, or even more likely the way someone responds to it. That's how games basically always start. That gives us something to go off of. There's really no other basis. While I don't think extended periods of joke voting are productive, some

is

necessary. Do you have any other propositions for getting a game going? Because you don't seem to be employing them.

PUPPY CLIFF NOTES: Quantum thinks we can't know anything for sure at this stage. And she's not scumhunting.

Yeah, you know, nothing is for certain. But you have to take a stand and see what reactions you get and see if someone says anything to change your mind or solidify your suspicion.

And why aren't you scum hunting? What page will you start?

I'm setting up scum-hunting. I mean, no one's

really

scum-hunting yet. That's more so what I was saying. I'm analyzing players/play-styles. I'm reading into people's posts. I'm pointing out what I notice, defending or "attacking" as I see fit. At this point, though, I'm not going to pressure anyone. I'm not doing the confrontational bit of scum-hunting yet. Scum-tracking perhaps.

quantum wrote:
Also, yeah, why did you feel the need to give such an in-depth explanation to your joke vote? I mean, you've already explained it before, VoD was just pointing out that it was kind of suspicious - not enough to merit a vote, just kind of suspicious. The fact that you got really defensive could be something we should look into as the game continues.


PUPPY CLIFF NOTES: Windkirby is defensive to da max!

As I said before, I don't put that much stock in somebody being defensive. They have to respond to your accusations. It does make me look into their posts more closely though, and see if I can find any scumminess. But defensiveness isn't bad by itself, IMO.

That's what I said. Defending yourself, by itself, is not bad, no.

Personally, I don't see the difference. I understand the technicality, but I don't see why you are pushing the difference between joke and random votes, when you don't even think we can read into much at the beginning of that game anyway. I believe you can learn a lot from the beginning of the game, but not from the random votes. It's more about what they say and how they say it that counts for me.

That's why the difference matters. You can't learn a lot from random votes, but you can learn quite a bit from joke votes. I don't think one should base everything on joke votes, though, and that's what I've been pushing. I think they're something to take into account and keep in mind, but know that people make blunders, etc. Like, it's important to be flexible about that, I think. I think we pretty much agree on the core principles, though.

After readin that whole long thing, I feel it was actually very thin on content (sorry!). I think quantum's biggest reason for voting windkirby is simply that he seems defensive. I don't think being "defensive" is any indication of scumminess. And after reading that whole thing I am starting to feel like windkirby doesn't deserve all the suspicion he is getting.

Question A question for all: Is being "defensive" a sign of scumminess? And where do you draw the line between answering people's concerns and being "defensive"?

I can change my vote when I see fit, but at this point, I see most reason for voting windkirby than anyone else (except maybe Cephrir, who I am quite suspicious of at the moment as well for being so dismissive).

Defensiveness is an indication of scumminess. Scum would try really hard not to appear like scum, and be afraid that someone's "caught them." I feel that windkirby reacted too strongly. Answering people's concerns would be more proportional. For example, if I accuse you of being scum and give you two sentences of reasoning (yeah right, two sentences), and your respond with 10-sentence paragraph and a blurb at the end, that's a little weird. It's something to look into. If windkirby was anywhere near a lynch I'd definitely remove my vote.

Also, what do you mean by "boiling down [my] arguments?"

[Akonas]

Sorry about that last post; I accidentally hit "Submit".

---

Votes at the beginning of the game are not technically random (unless someone posted a random dice tag and then voted, and those people are jerks); they are arbitrary. It can be random, it can be strategic, whatever. The point is, they're something to go back to later and something to get the ball rolling now.

OVERALL: After readin that whole long thing, I feel it was actually very thin on content (sorry!).

I agree, to an extent. She's saying a lot without actually saying much. It's the whole "well, it could be either, we don't really know" thing. The thing is, everybody knows that at this point. It's redundant and unhelpful. And this game is mostly about stuff that can't be logically justified.

---

I think there is a connotative difference between defending oneself and being defensive.

This is one of those "duh" moments. The difference is whether you think they're scum, really. And so I don't see why this is relevant to the discussion.

I think that QuantumFruit's reaction to PinkPuppy saying she wasn't scumhunting is interesting; I think she was scumhunting. Not attacking anyone directly, but nevertheless looking for scum (despite my other complaints).

I FoS the both of you

.

Also, QF, I think your problem is that you feel a need to overjustify everything. Think about what you're saying and whether you really need all those quotes.

---

windkirby doesn't come across as all that scummy. I didn't think he was being overly defensive; I thought that his response was justified. However, his reaction to being called defensive is interesting. IGMEOY but you're not seeming that scum. Don't be afraid to talk (as your last post seemed to imply); that is nothing but bad.

[Akonas]

does a mini normal have a jester?

There's about a 99% chance we don't.

darkdude: Why don't you want to vote?

mozsuggs: what do you think of all this?

Supporting a wagon from the sidelines but not committing yourself to it is a really scummy thing to do.

Why do you say this? I don't really see the connection.

[Akonas]

Supporting a wagon from the sidelines but not committing yourself to it is a really scummy thing to do.

I agree with this.

It's sort of inciting the mob to take action without taking the action yourself and thus, avoiding the heat.

But on the other hand, you can be suspicious of someone without committing yourself. I suppose it depends on how developed the bandwagon is.

---

careful zed...I'm always leery of people who say we need to do things NOW... there is never a need to hurry. Longer days always help the town. Of course, there is a point where a lynch is good, but IMO, we haven't reached that point yet.

that being said, I'm sensing heavy scummy vibes from darkdude since he's overly paranoid at the moment and not giving really good reasons to go after Yvonne.

unvote vote darkdude

.

I find this post odd. You're no taking that much notice of zeddicus, but you are taking some--and I think that post was a bit more suspicious than you seemed to. On the other hand, some people just like making accusations like that.

---

@Everyone: Let's not get too over-eager band-wagoning and keep track of the vote count. (Btw, I don't throw my votes out like candy, so when I do vote, it's basically a final decision type of thing [joke votes excepted]. On the other hand, it takes a lot for me to decide to vote. Just keep that in mind. I like giving people a chance to defend themselves.)

So:
a)don't vote him too much
b)you think he should get lynched (a "final decision")

Explain?

[Akonas]

From an objective point of view though, I realize that I'm going to get lynched sooner or later in a couple of days. Even if I survive this day (and the following night) I would only draw more suspicion and eventually get lynched anyways. I only hope that if it comes to that the remaining towns should remember the other suspicious persons here.....

Really? With that point of view you're bound to get lynched. You're being defensive and using as your defense that you know you're not scum, which is of absolutely no help to us because you could easily be lying. I agree that Yvonne's accusation wasn't that strong, but your reaction to it is absurd.

FoS: darkude

soon to become a vote if this continues as it has.

[Akonas]

Vote: mozsuggs

Get your head out your arse.

Stop complaining that we can't figure anything out and start playing. Go back--surely there's something someone's said that ticked you off or made you like them?

What do you think of darkdude? zeddicus? QF? They're the people who seem to be discussed recently (apart from yourself).

[Akonas]

I don't find VoD's post scummy. I think he was being witty (as usual ) while voting for someone. It didn't seem as though he didn't have legitimate suspicion, just trying to get a laugh out of the game in addition to lynching who he thought was scum. Theoretically, mafia games are for entertainment purposes, are they not?

Laying down the hammer always looks suspicious, and someone has to do it every day.

But that was not the time. I, for one, didn't want to see him lynched at that point; I didn't have time to unvote beforehand.

letting mozsuggs commit suicide

Excuse me? He wasn't a good townie, but he didn't commit suicide either.

I don't like the fact that VoD kills moz without seeming all that convinced that he's scum, just that he's sick of dealing with him. Not pro-town in the least.

QFT.

So far the people I've seen talking most about it are QF and Vod, and both of them are saying that it's no big deal, that it doesn't matter that we just killed town. Contracting syphilis does not make one a bad person. I don't think he deserved a lynch, quite honestly, and I'm quite a bit suspicious of people who don't care about running up a townie like that (and not against a deadline, either). If someone's being uncooperative and silly (like he was), he's likely a townie who just doesn't care (scumtend to care), and that's not a really good reason to lynch him. I thought it was far too hasty. QF: why don't you see this at all?

Vote: thevampireofdusseldorf

.

[Akonas]

I believe that's three votes; let's not run him up too fast, now, okay?

[Akonas]

@Akonas... he said it was a mistake. If you don't believe him, pursue that, I suppose. And besides, it was obviously going to happen at some point. I would have done it in that situation (well, I might have waited, but still). Not caring is just a noob tell. And do you really think he didn't deserve it? He was erratic and couldn't be trusted in endgame anyways (see: voting for me because he doesn't like me), and we almost certainly would have lynched him at some point, especially given the townie claim. Pretending otherwise is really just silly.

I suppose you do have a point, it's just that VoD seems like a good player to me, and I can't see him hammering so suddenly as scum. Even most noobs know that hammering a townie makes you look bad. I also can't see him missing those warnings, either, though. I'm still inclined to believe him for now based on his not being a terrible player, but if a case builds on him later based on scummy behavior, that might be something I'd reconsider.

I'm seeing a turnaround here... mostly the point I'd like to ask you about is why you think that the fact that you consider VoD to be a good player gives him extra leeway; if anything, I would think it would get him less. Yes, I can see the "it would be bad for him as scum" argument, but he could easily say it was an accident or that mozsuggs deserved it as well.

@VoD: I understand that you didn't think it would be lynch, but still... I don't see the logic behind running him up so high so fast. I know, I know, I should have been on more often, but still.

I have to go now; more later (I only finished Page 11 so far).

[Akonas]

hold no more weight than my "I didnt realize that it was the hammer", they are done post event with the knowledge that moz is town, but in these cases niether of them were questioned about there involvment in mozs death and both were pressuring me for my part after I had already exlained my actions.

"it was an accident" doesn't hold much weight either. It's not much of an explanation, and it doesn't take my suspicion off.

I was genuinely wishing for a response from him, for me to decide if I thought him town or scum.

fair enough. But you should have checked--not to to so seems quite irresponsible.

@Akonas: I wasn't saying that VoD's post timing wasn't potentially suspicious. It's something to look into if its habitual, etc., but I don't think in and of itself it was necessarily scummy. People make mistakes (yes, that's a truism), and I don't think his action merits a vote. (So, I'm not voting for him.)

Wait... but people don't habitually do things that they know will get them labeled as scum. Yes, they do some things habitually, and those are definitely important to look for. But sometimes it's the one slip where scum gives him/herself away.

vote darkdude

. I don't like the way he's consistently pressuring vod, especially to claim, without putting his vote where his mouth is.

I don't see a problem; he's putting a vote on, and we don't want a quicklynch.

For all my suspicions at the moment, I will

unvote

. I don't see quite enough merit in this wagon at the moment. I am, however, quite suspicious of both darkdude and vikingfan. Vikinfan's not been doing much of any good all game, and he bothers me. darkdude seems like a newbie, but I'm not sure about town or scum.

[Akonas]

@VoD: I don't think your criticism of PinkPuppy for "trying to have it both ways" is accurate. She's saying (as several other people are) that you should have checked so close to a lynch; not to do so shows laziness or scumminess. It's the motivation and thought behind it that matters, contrary to what you said PP was saying.

On the one hand, it could be an honest mistake; on the other hand, it could be a scum gambit to con the town into thinking it was a mistake. Therefore, I will proceed carefully and see what comes up.

I think this has all moved way too fast and nobody else has even been seriously questioned. If these are the reasons mentioned above for pushing me on a wagon ride towards lynching then I am inclined to believe that this dubious wagon has some scum wheels on it.

And you guys seem to be over concerned about revealing a power role. Isn't there double to triple the probability that we could be pressuring a scum to a cop? The reluctance is already seeming suspicious in my eyes.

Yeah, this is a really good idea! And while we're at it, why don't we just have everyone claim?

How? Scum would want to be careful not to give anyone reason to suspect them.

Hammering someone as scum is very dangerous already, so scum would want to build up a good case for why they did it. I didn't realize is not a good case. Scum would realize, and they'd have to realize. I just don't agree with your logic.

I just don't agree with your logic.

1. A good argument is one that makes its maker seem like town.
2. Scum would make a good argument, so as to seem town.
3. vampireofdusseldorf's argument is bad, therefore scum would not make it.
4. scum would not make it, therefore it is a good argument.
Proof by contradiction. One of those must be wrong

(hint: it's 3)

; QED.

[Akonas]

You didn't use clear logic either.

But from my perspective, since I know that I am pro town, I can 100% eliminate this possibility. Of course there is no conclusive proof which I can present to you, especially since you have made a case on me already which I cannot defend whether I am actually pro town or not; if I stay my opinion I'll get suspicion, if I change my opinion I'll get suspected for conforming in order to seem less suspicious.

Okay, but WE DON'T KNOW THAT. Your argument is moot. We're not looking for a conclusive case; we're looking for you to defend yourself, and you're doing the same thing that mozsuggs did.

Yes I concur that from an objective point of view I do seem the most suspicious out of all players right now. But you cannot use that as a case against me; for as mentioned before I alone know that I am protown, therefore ignoring my own suspicious actions is fully justified. Of course I try not to be suspicious anyways so that the town would not need to unnecessarily lose a member.

Lynch me if you will then. If we are lucky there are less than 4 scum so you can survive another day.

GRAAAAAAH!!!
:badposting:

We don't need you to prove that you're pro-town using the iron fist of logic. That's not what we mean by "defend yourself." Just freaking play the game, and don't use this craplogic crap. It's not just craplogic but lack of logic. I think what's happening here is you're a newbie, you see people attacking you, you freak out and don't know what to do. The difference between you and mozsuggs is that you weren't being an ass in the first place.

Townies don't need to worry about being seen as scum. Try to find who scum is and you will help town win. Worry overmuch about suspicion on you and you will just serve to clog up the works. I don't know whether you're scum or not; I'm getting some scum vibes, but the fact that people are suspicious of you DOES NOT MEAN YOU WILL GET LYNCHED! So just put your head on your shoulders and PLAY THE GAME.

---

On a side note:

Wow. I hope everyone is clear on this already, but in case not:

If you are pro-town, don't lie about your role.

(The only exception is if you are 100% confirmable as an innocent... and even then, it's still not necessarily a great idea). I know it's pretty obvious, but wanted to make sure we all understood that.

The other exception is when you are a power role and lying would do something really bad and there's a mass claim or something... there are times.

[Akonas]

I don't think VoD has a good defense. He's basically saying that he made a mistake by accident and we should ignore it. To me the best way to deal with this is to push for more information.

This is tripe and horrible for town. There is nothing more to discuss on the issue, he can continue saying it was an accident and whoever doesn't believe him can not believe him and we can argue until we get a deadline and not focus on anyone else. Fine. That would be bad for town, whether he's scum or not, because even if we end up catching scum (and I don't feel like VoD is), we haven't paid attention to anyone else and we have nothing to go off of.

It's not tripe and horrible for town. There is something to discuss, which is our reactions to it. No, maybe we don't want to lynch him right away, but we want to see how he reacts to having votes on him. What you're arguing for is essentially to ignore the fact that he did something stupid/scummy.

Also, generally the reason for a claim is so that we don't lynch a pro-town power role; they have the possibility of being protected, and if they claim we'll lynch someone else instead (letting the scum do a NK rather than doing their work for them). It's kind of a last-ditch-before-we-kill-you type thing.

The conformity argument really disables any other defenses I may have had.

What's the conformity argument? That you think you will be screwed no matter what you do? That's not really so much of a problem... just say what you mean, who you think is scum, and you generally won't have too much of a problem.

[Akonas]

It's not tripe and horrible for town. There is something to discuss, which is our reactions to it. No, maybe we don't want to lynch him right away, but we want to see how he reacts to having votes on him. What you're arguing for is essentially to ignore the fact that he did something stupid/scummy.

I think you missed QF's point. Pressuring VoD more because of the supposedly accidental hammer is useless and retarded.

I think you missed my point. It's not. Voting for him has a point. Note that I'm not voting him anymore; I'm arguing this more based on principle than on this particular case. The point is, voting who you think is most scummy is important. Putting on pressure on people who act scummy is important, and it helps get town information.

[Akonas]

@Akonas: I'm not going to quote post 354 in its entirety, so I'll just reply. First of all, I don't feel like what VoD said in his "defense" was defense at all. I felt like he was just saying what had happened and apologizing for it and that's that. Neither he nor I advocated completely ignoring it, just looking at other stuff too because we were getting much too polarized on a minor detail. We'd all already discussed our reactions to it and the discussion was growing redundant. I don't disregard the fact that the whole situation is something to keep in mind. I completely think it is.

A lynch is hardly a minor detail. It was a defense because he was excusing an action which otherwise would have been perceived as very scummy. That being said, this whole argument is getting a bit cold, but there's no way you're going to get the last word on this.

It's not a good argument, though, because most of us aren't buying it. A better argument would be knowing that it was the hammer vote and strongly feeling that mozsuggs was scum. Then we might ask for explanation, but it wouldn't look as scummy. The "I didn't know" crap makes VoD look like he's trying to get out of it and doing a bad job. This argument doesn't make him seem like town at all, it just seems like he's trying to be honest. He could still be town or scum, the argument he's making doesn't prove or disprove either.

Except for the fact that you are buying it. He didn't get lynched; in some games, putting on a quick hammer like that would be enough to get you tagged as scum. Your saying that another argument would have been more convincing to you simply doesn't cut it if you're not attacking him. Doesn't make him seem like town... but not like scum either, apparently.

if a townie does something they know might appear scummy then the are generaly going to be questioned over it and firstly this detracts from focusing on possible real scum and second endangers a townie for a lynch. The only time I would see this of use would be if the pay out was greater than the bet.

The payout

is

greater than the bet. If scum get questioned over something that appears scummy, we get to see who's interrogating and who's not, who's eager to get someone lynched and who's not, who's talking and who's not. Since we don't know who scum are, we go after everyone. The point is, if a townie's reserved and not saying something for fear of seeming scum, this is generally a bad thing.
Also, what Cephrir said.

Yeah this happened to me and Yvonne. When you're pro town and someone's constantly calling you scum you tend to think that way....

Well, don't.


And as for the hint-dropping, don't do it. It's a bad idea. If you're going to claim, then claim; otherwise, you're probably scum or going to get killed by scum.

And where is that zeddicus?

[Akonas]

Gosh, you remind me of people who just enjoy whining.

Yeah I guess I am whining. I'm kind of pissed that Quantum Fruit made a pointless statement regarding my vote. Because she could have complained about any of the "rules" I listed above.

Because you're looking at exactly what people say rather than the motivation behind them and the motivation of them accusing you.

@VoD: I think Talitha's been posting enough; I don't think that she's been slacking off; people can say a lot without posting hella often.

darkdude: I think QF was just asking you to do your own thinking and avoid just bandwagoning.

[Akonas]

Now my last comment on Talitha and the mean roaring nasty person (me)...

It's basically saying "your analysis sucks" and "stop being lazy rawr." And then he actually said "Roar." in the same post.

Yeah that was pretty much it and It was intended to come across as harsh, I was concerned that talitha didn't have the time and/or concentration to be able to particapate well in this game (at that stage) but from her recent post I am more satisfied. If a roar gets someone to be more active in the game then I will roar, I might also meow and sometimes purr.

Your coverup/backtracking has been noted.

This is definitely not the protown-protown advice/help

such as the one given by Akonas.

Emphasis mine; phrase noted.

---

vikingfan- A bit light on posting, but there's not much wrong with what he

has

said. I like his suspicions right now.

You like him for who he is suspicious of?

Akonas- The post that really got me going on him was when he voted VoD and afterwards said this:

I believe that's three votes; let's not run him up too fast, now, okay?

That really rubbed me the wrong way, encouraging people to bandwagon in a sort of subtle way. It's not just aggressive, it's aggressive without being, like, openly hostile.

It's aggressive, yes; I put a vote on him, didn't I? It was more along the lines of "let's put pressure on him but not lynch before letting him have a say."

And plus, he seems really resistant to giving VoD the benefit of the doubt, like he wanted a lynch too much to listen to reason. He then unvoted VoD because he "didn't see much merit in the wagon", even though he claimed to be suspicious of VoD.

You're saying that I want to get him lynched so badly that I unvoted? I simply wanted to get the point across that he did something bad. QF seemed very dismissive of it. I didn't see that much merit in the wagon because I acknowledge that it could very well be a slip-up, and I don't see him as all that scummy other than that.

I've notied that a lot of players in this game have been willing to go after people based on one or two posts rather than considering their overarching scumminess (going after VoD for the hammer, dd's attack on QF and Talitha). I think some of us need to think more broadly on occasion.

We need to think broadly. Agreed.

---

Vote: vikingfan

. I never liked him in the first place, Talitha makes some good points, and if I remember correctly, she has a highly-functioning scumdar.

[Akonas]

Your coverup/backtracking has been noted.

Very broad accusation there and going back over the issue in question I find no such thing but if you believe this to be the case please back it up with some evidence.

It was mainly just "If a roar gets someone to be more active in the game then I will roar, I might also meow and sometimes purr", which seems to me to suggest that you're trying to suck up... I'm not sure exactly. Just with the whole Talitha thing you're kind of going back and saying "no, I wasn't that mean" in response to QF's complaining about it.


@Cephrir: Suspicion is not the same thing as wanting someone to get lynched/supporting a wagon.

what can be considered to be pro-town can also be considered to be scummy.

QFT. This is a very subjective game, and is important to take everything someone's said into account when evaluating a particular statement.

that being said, I'm sensing heavy scummy vibes from darkdude since he's overly paranoid at the moment and not giving really good reasons to go after Yvonne. unvote vote darkdude.

He joins the wagon he has just warned against! His words say one thing, but his actions say something different.
I think darkdude and Vikingfan could be scum together - I think vikingfan saw a wagon building on his scum buddy and did not want to miss the chance to be on the wagon early.

At this time, Cephrir and darkdude were tied in the voting (after I voted). That is by no means creating a huge wagon since they were both still equally under suspicion at this time. If I am finding scummy vibes on darkdude and there is no danger of a lynch, should I not put my vote where my mouth is. I sense you trying to lead the town with this suggestion, especially since the main discussion right after I voted was on the nature of voting. There were 7 votes required for a lynch...given the nature of the game and how often I check in, I doubted highly that darkdude was on the way to a lynch at that time. It was also very useful to, as others noted at the time, gain more information on darkdude.

But you haven't addressed what Talitha said: that you had just warned against it. Can you explain the contradiction?

I also don't like Akonas' last post...smells a little bit too much of bandwagoning on Talitha and sucking up to her.

OMGUS. Also that whole thing about how it's a tiny wagon, so what's the problem?

Vikingfan especially seemed completely fine with lynching darkdude, and that bothers me.

[Akonas]

@VoD: I understood that it was an attempt at humor; it still rubbed me somewhat the wrong way. You seemed to be using humor to cover up the fact that you'd gone too far and try to back down.

@Cephrir: Suspicion is not the same thing as wanting someone to get lynched/supporting a wagon.

But if you thought it was actually a mistake, why were you still suspicious?

I don't recall saying that; I'm still suspicious of him, and I don't know whether it was a mistake.

Vikingfan especially seemed completely fine with lynching darkdude, and that bothers me.

Why?

Taking someone's life should always be serious business. But seriously, though, we don't want to lynch a townie.

---

Akonas: it's not the fact that you didn't like me, it's the fact that you felt the need to buddy up to Talitha in the process. So it's not OMGUS.

Fair enough.

---

The argument that someone is "reactive" and therefore must be scum, does not fly with me -- it must be combined with other factors for me to care. The whole game is reacting to what people say.

Right, the game is all based on what other people have said and reacting to it. But there's a difference between waiting for someone to accuse you or just riding whatever wagon's going at the moment (not looking for scum) and actively reading, rereading, interpreting (yes, I know this is quite idealistic and just about nobody always lives up to it).

Maybe it's just that me and Cephrir think differently. But his type of arguments seem like scum arguments to me. In all fairness, I have seen many people trying to use the "defensive ZOMG!" argument. But

I just think it's total crap every time.

I disagree.

---

Akonas: it's not the fact that you didn't like me, it's the fact that you felt the need to buddy up to Talitha in the process. So it's not OMGUS.

Enh... I don't know about that; I was just saying that I liked where she was going. Take it as scummy if you like; I don't see it.

---

I find it interesting that people are saying they were really sure that they found mozsuggs scum. I didn't see him as all that overtly scummy; more overtly moronic. But when people do that, more often than not they are town. The problem is that they then proceed to clog up the work and cause problems for town.

I would've liked to say more, but I haven't the time. I'll be gone Tuesday and Wednesday.

[Akonas]

I find it interesting that people are saying they were really sure that they found mozsuggs scum. I didn't see him as all that overtly scummy; more overtly moronic. But when people do that, more often than not they are town. The problem is that they then proceed to clog up the work and cause problems for town.

I don't agree. Stupidity =/= town. Would you let idiot scum ride by because they're idiots? Didn't think so. moz was obviously either awful scum or even worse town at the point we went after him, and I'm pretty sure most of us thought the scum option was more likely.

But idiocy isn't really a scumtell. It's more likely to have idiot town than idiot scum, simply because there's more town than scum.

Taking someone's life should always be serious business. But seriously, though, we don't want to lynch a townie.

I don't follow. Do you know he's a townie? More seriously, why were you suspicious of vikingfan for being suspicious of dd, but not anyone else who is/was suspicious of him?

No, I don't know he's a townie; I'm suspicious of him, but I'm not sure.

Oh, and as for vikingfan:

After seeing mozsuggs' alignment, I'm not sure about darkdude, especially since it seems that he may be framed by the mafia. It seems like, to me, the mafia were almost entirely sitting back and letting mozsuggs commit suicide (which is basically what he did).

I'm not holding vod's hammer against him: A) someone has to do it, and B) he was pretty much pissing us all off at that point.

• Why do you think he was framed by the mafia? Was this invalidated when you voted him?
  
• You're not holding vod's hammer against him because he was pissing us off, not because you thought he was scum?
  
• You think the mafia were sitting back and letting mozsuggs commit suicide, which is pretty much what you did--you know, except for that one post where you were like "oh no he's gonna get lynched...ohwaitnevermind. Seems like lip service to me.
  
  
• Oh right, so you were voting darkdude and then
  let him commit suicide
  ... And since you knew the mafia were just sitting back, VoD wasn't mafia--after all,
  you knew what the mafia were doing... Scum.

More to come; I only finished page 21 so far.

[Akonas]

I'll read through your mudslinging when I get around to it.

Hold on, I just reread my role, and it seems I missed a small detail. Apparently, all of that stuff I claimed is only true on April 1.

Unvote: EmpTyger

APRIL FOOLS

...LaL? ...

---

Akonas:

<snip>

Akonas: it's not the fact that you didn't like me, it's the fact that you felt the need to buddy up to Talitha in the process. So it's not OMGUS.

Fair enough.
<snip>

Akonas: it's not the fact that you didn't like me, it's the fact that you felt the need to buddy up to Talitha in the process. So it's not OMGUS.

Enh... I don't know about that; I was just saying that I liked where she was going. Take it as scummy if you like; I don't see it.
<snip>

Pick one?

I'm saying that it's fair for him to complain about my buddying up to Talitha, but I don't think I really was. I do, however, see how that would be a valid accusation, and I don't really see how to defend against it.

---

Also, you appear to skirt around questions fairly heftily. Care to explain this tendency? I don't feel this is particularly helpful for town and I'm not entirely sure why you do this.

I don't know. This part about idling around was written when I just felt like speaking my mind, and it was something I noticed. I never intended for it to be a real help or anything.

Maybe you should try helping?

unvote; vote darkdude

@ I try to, but I still have a lot of work these days...I can only spare time to browse here a few minutes per day for now...

Darkdude: Then don't complain about others?

---

Now Akonas interactions while DD was top suspect indicate to me that either he is scum buddies with DD or DD is an innocent townie and Akonas is wishing to appear helpful and leniant on a suspicious person (whom was looking likey for a lynch) because he knew he would turn up town. I'm more looking at the later option here.

I'm just trying to be helpful so that we don't lynch YET ANOTHER stupid townie.

[Akonas]

I'm just trying to be helpful so that we don't lynch YET ANOTHER stupid townie.

I'm getting a bit confused here, and again you reference moz in your "YET ANOTHER stupid townie" comment.
For someone who has stated constantly about DD

No, I don't know he's a townie; I'm suspicious of him, but I'm not sure.

you have tried giving many implications that he is in fact town. Im seeing this as all rather wierd: using the line about I dont know about DD, being helpful towards him and making many references to him being town. Something is not adding up IMO.

Alright... Let me explain. I don't want to lynch another townie for being stupid/bad town, like mozsuggs was lynched. I have seen people (I think I was this way myself) who are decent at playing the game, know some tells and whatnot, but don't know how to defend themselves (it's worth noting that this is done very differently in the game from real life). Darkdude has been putting off some fairly strong tells, and now I'm thinking he's likely scum--he hasn't been doing anything since suspicion shifted a bit away from him. I just wanted to give him a chance to be a good townie. Take a look at this post:

You clearly know what types of things to look for. D1 you were pointing out QF’s “scum bandwagoning”, Yvonne’s “baseless accusations” and “directing attention”, and the holes in mozs’s defense. And then earlier D2 you deduced that you were being framed, and how to make your defense most plausible. And you’ve also pointed out VoD’s taking a deciding vote less than seriously, and the distinction between voting for a claim rather than a lynch, and you’ve lurkerprodded zeddicus. And you’re especially able to play quite fine when it comes to defending yourself, or when you’ve attacked 2 players who, as it turns out, are innocent (that is, Yvonne and mozs; though also from *my* point of view, since *I* know zeddicus’s innocent).

But then every so often you lapse into this unhelpful cluelessness. You quickly resort to a claiming unfamiliarity with the site, and you just make everything out to be so much more hopelessly complicated than it actually is, that you can’t possibly express suspicions.

First of all, thanks for the compliment.

But do you honestly expect people to find those things all the time, with no break in between? And I wasn't using the newbie argument in my last few posts. I was talking specifically about this game. I didn't blame my recent lack of leads on noobishness.

---

I guess. It still wasn't a factor in my thought process. It's not like I thought, "Oh, this guy's going to get replaced soon so I'm going to unvote him" at the time.

Why not? That seems like kind of an important thing.

---

Something about Akonas rubs me the wrong way a

tiny

bit, but there is really nothing wrong with his posts that I can point out... Probably subliminal.

It could be worth looking at; often gut feelings are useful (see my sig for the purpose of talking). See if you can find something to back it up, though. Or if you can't find anything, maybe put it to rest.

[Akonas]

Yes.

-----

Why not? That seems like kind of an important thing.

What I mean is, when I voted, it wasn't with the intent of unvoting soon.

But why didn't you keep in mind that he was going to get replaced and his replacement would have a chance to put up a defense?

[Akonas]

After my pestering of akonas about his views on dd he has rather quickly changed his tune to yeah "dd is most likely scum" and is happy to support a wagon on him. This seems to me to be rather too quick and briefly explained a change from so much typed indecision.

A quick change... I simply put off judgment for a little bit so that, incase he was town, we wouldn't lynch him right away. Kind of "wait a second, guys." I didn't want another townie to get lynched real quick because he didn't know how to defend himself and was just dicking around. However, at this point, darkdude has had a chance to defend himself, and he hasn't redeemed himself. It's kind of like how you don't keep saying "give peace a chance" when they're invading your homeland.

---

You're also wrong, but I may as well give up on convincing you on that, apparently, since you and PP don't seem to feel like listening to reason.

First of all, reason often is less useful than gut feelings. This isn't a logic game (although logic comes into play quite often).
Second, justify yourself.

---

Since QF was inactive lately my suspicions didn't change much about her. She seems most suspicious right now because I personally don't think Cephrir is very suspicious. Most accusations against him are due to his general behaviour, which I don't find scummy.

Who else do you find suspicious? Why don't you think Cephrir is suspicious?

Oh, and vikingfan didn't respond to my criticism of him.

[Akonas]

Basically, scumtells and playstyles are hard to tell apart?

At any rate, EmpTyger, I will oblige.

vote: Cephrir

I was cop in my first game (newbie 559) and I acted a lot like darkdude is acting. Not to say that he's cop, but I don't feel that newbie play is a very strong lead IMO. So therefore, I will vote Cephrir, mostly due to his inconsistent playing style and a slight gut feeling, though I reserve the right to change it.

I'm sorry; I completely did not understand that justification.

windkirby: can you give a justification for your feelings on darkdude?

Also, I know that I haven't been passing judgement on Cephrir; this is because I'm not sure what to make of him. I will do so, however, when I have time to reread... which might be this weekend; more likely it's next week. I will be gone on a trip with QF Wednesday-Saturday.

[Akonas]

Basically, scumtells and playstyles are hard to tell apart?

That's what mafia is all about right? Otherwise it wouldn't be so hard.

Yeah. I was just pointing out that your post was somewhat convoluted.

I don't think there are many instances where someone is 100% sure. I'm not saying that we should only lynch with full confidence, but I'm merely giving an explanation to the divided opinions.

This seems contrary to PP and Cephrir's attacks on QF. What do you have to say to that?

---

Wow. I don't like that post at all. You basically said how you can see everyone being scum or being town, and you're not sure yet on anybody. Which is useless fence-sitting. All you're doing is muddying the waters, and impeding progress towards a lynch, which is not helpful when we have a deadline. I've tried to have patience with you and your obviously different playstyle, but this is ridiculous. If we all played like you we'd no-lynch every day.

And I think you're being much meaner to DD than DD ever was to Talitha. You said you don't respect his intellect and that he is annoying. I really don't like that at all coming from a player I had decided was so protective of people's feelings. The fact that you said you know it's hypocritical, does not make it any better for me. Not being sympathetic about people's RL commitments < insults and name-calling.

The only person you feel particularly negative against is DD, although you say you think he's town! Thanks for showing up to insult another player, sit the fence on EVERYBODY, and NOT VOTE after a deadline is posted. This behavior is not pro-town. It confuses people who have to go through your post and try to figure out where you stand on things, and see that you stand in the middle of every issue, seeing all sides and committing to nothing.

unvote; vote QF

Wow. I don't like that post. You basically just pounced. She's been like that all game; you acknowledged it yourself:

I realize Cephrir (and you) seem to have a different playstyle. A much more verbose, indirect style. I am trying to allow for that because I don't want to just suspect anyone who plays differently from me. BUT, the reason I do suspect it is because I think it can easily be manipulative. I like to be direct and concise, and I suspect people who aren't direct and concise, of hiding something. Not always, but it is something I watch out for. Dancing around the issue, answering it from the side, arguing about meanings of words... I am not a fan, and it makes me suspicious.

And you said it was suspicious before, but something bothers me here. What assuaged your suspicions on Cephrir? And why is this suddenly so scummy? If you want her suspicions, then

ask for them.

I am distressed by this latest sudden two votes on QF, especially windkirby's, especially because windkirby kinda just came back. However, I think I'd still be fairly happy with a darkdude lynch. It would clear up a few things; darkdude has the most controversy surrounding him, and a lynch would give us a lot of information (plus I consider him scum). However, I'm not going to vote 'till I come back.

[Akonas]

2. The relationship between Akonas and QF in this game. Yes I am aware of some relationship outside of this game but at times I have watched there interactions. Sometimes it is supportive sometimes antagonistic, but this seems to be more comments on how each other "is" as a person and not so much about how they are playing this game. As I thought earlier "I hope there is no conflict of iterest", so I would rather like to hear when each of you get back your thoughts about each others play in this game so far.

Meta. We know each other pretty well, and she likes talking. And she's willing to consider every point of view. I'm kind of the same way, actually. anyways..

I am curious about Cephrir and Pink Puppy. The scum bussing thing is a possibility, and they're both on my scumdar. I would, however, be happy with a

Vote: darkdude

. That's Lynch-1.

[Akonas]

I also want to know why Akonas and QF don't suspect each other. Okay you know each other's playstyle and you <3 each other. I get it. But it just feels like you're not being objective about each other as well. Not sure if it's scummy per se. It might be. But you are at least not being objective. Unless you have seen some things you consider town-tells or something.

I know that she talks too much and guts too little; this makes it hard for me to get a read on her. I've been somewhat suspending judgment because I have better targets atm. However, I would like to see more commitment (pun!) or I'm going to start having a cow. After all, the point of the game is to CATCH SCUM.

[Akonas]

elt you were being mean in your lack of compassion. I did not say "stop questioning her" I said "stop insisting she was lurking, she has kids and a job and it's a jerk thing to do to hold that against her." I don't understand why that makes me scummy and you still have not answered the why that makes me scummy. You keep reiterating the situation, but that's not what I'm asking you.
I did not shift my position recently; I shifted my position when we discussed the issue long ago and I realized that I was being a big too dramatic (that was when I was depressed and developing a case of insanity, so it seems fairly natural that I'd be over-emotional; Akonas can do a meta on that as well).

---

Now, in terms of how we feel about one another in this game (me & Akonas)...I thought it was kind of interesting how he did the whole paternalistic thing with darkdude, etc., kind of like adopting a pet townie if darkdude's a townie. And for a while he didn't post much, but I know why he didn't post much. So, it's somewhat difficult to build a case against him and I don't really see one. Plus, we both haven't been as into mafia lately as we were before, so I can't hold against him that he isn't putting all of his efforts into it.

This is all based on emotion and "why can't we all just get along?" The game is not about getting along; it's about finding scum and killing them, trying to find the jerks who are trying to kill us, and then running them up and hanging them. The game is inherently mean. Now, I know we've got to be somewhat sivilized ("otherwise we'd be no better than them!"), but seriously,

be meaner

. Oh... and don't forget to vote!

Anything that could potentially help town, darkdude, is a good thing. But if you don't think it'll even potentially help town, no, you shouldn't.

"Potentially"? Who's to know what could potentially help? That's kind of a crappy claim, if you ask me.

I don't want you to die, darkdude.

I will not cave and just vote for someone. The only person there is a strong logical case against is perhaps darkdude. And even then, I'm cautious of that because he's consistently claimed the newbie thing and he doesn't seem very experienced and I truly feel uncomfortable after the mozsuggs lynch

Would you prefer No Lynch?

[Akonas]

Vikingfan: what do you think of that quote from Cephrir? Who do you think is scum?

I don't like the way PP has been acting lately, and there's a possible connection between her and Cephrir. Example provided here, but there are more:

UNVOTE

VOTE CEPHRIR

Just to speed things up. No justification at all, but it would be cool to get a lynch this century.

unvote; vote mozsuggs

the game is only a week old.

Also, it's worth noting that Cephrir voted for VoD first thing, and was voted for by YvonneSeer and darkdude (both dead).

[Akonas]

I think WK's point is valid. Arguing against taking people's comments/votes on Day 1 to mean something is generally counterproductive. Acting on "oh hey that was a bit scummy" starts conversation, gets wagons going, and at worst it's essentially just another random vote. However, my suspicions at this point lie on PP and vikingfan. vikingfan's latest post strikes me as "here guys, I saw some things" so as to avoid being accused of not saying much. Then he yells at us to post despite not having said much... sounds like he's got posting on the brain (sometimes scum post just to make sure it looks like they're posting). Ask me for a better explanation if you don't follow my logic here.

FoS: QF
Almost vote: vikingfan

but I don't quite want to run up a lynch right at this moment.

[Akonas]

Viking after such a long wait for content from you you do not fill me with much hope....I am not happy with your play at all and feel it is time to put the pressure on.

Vote:Vikingfan

You have given a really lame excuse for playing it safe. I feel you have added almost nothing new to the game and thus are most likely IMO to be hiding something.
Using everyone elses arguments is fine as long as you contribute your own to the table and I find you have done very little of this and am not gonna let you off the hook for this.

scummyscummyscummyscummy.

[Akonas]

It feels like VoD just jumped on the wagon, as it were, didn't add anything new ("Using everyone elses arguments is fine as long as you contribute your own to the table"). Kind of a bland yeahleslynchim.

[Akonas]

I really really really want to hear what vikingfan has to say.

[Akonas]

Do you know what he was thinking?

Also, WIFOM. You're criticizing him for trying not to get a townie lynched? I think that maybe he really didn't see any hardcore evidence. You're reaching a bit far. And you've given me no reason to believe you're not scum.

[Akonas]

I don't see how spreading blame without voting is opportunistic; jumping on wagons is what I'd call opportunistic. Discussion is good, even without votes. And although I'd kind of like to vote for darkdude right now, I'm not going to because we may be rather close to LoL. (ha ha hah.)

STOP VOTING FOR QUANTUMFRUIT!!!!!

. We don't want a lynch yet. and

Serious FoS: darkdude.

I'm about to vote you for going to Lynch-1 on an "enh" vote. Actually,

Vote: darkdude

. I've thought you were scum; you're only convincing me more. And it's only the second vote.

[Akonas]

[snip]
This is a pathetic excuse coming from somebody who has made a big deal all game about voting only when she is sure. Now she's playing on gut? And still not voting.

Two problems here:

1. You're discounting gut, which is one of the most important things in the game; indeed, being "sure" comes from gut feelings more often than not.
   
2. You're encouraging QF to vote. This seems like bad play on your part. We're close to LoL, if not in it already. And you're encouraging getting to lynching rather than discussion who we think is scum?

You're starting to look like scum to me.

I'd much rather see QF go than WK, even if he did see (The former)DD as town when the rest of us couldn't. I just don't want to go lynching people for being right that someone is town. I mean, what do you think WK was trying to do? Buddy up to a dead guy? There's no payback for that if you're scum.

vote: QF

Sorry? I didn't quite get this; could you explain it better?

[Akonas]

And in one of your posts, you FOS QF. So why are you so against QF lynch now?

Because FoS =/= Vote.

Actually, I am not discounting gut. I am saying I don't think it makes sense with the rest of her play here. She has insisted about being "sure" about people, and not wanting to make hasty decisions. For someone who wants to be careful, it seems ridiculous to suddenly start relying on gut.

For someone who wants to be careful, you're encouraging her awful much to vote. You're saying both that she should change her playstyle and that changing her playstyle is scummy. You can't have it both ways.

Also, you're votemongering, which is often scum trying to get people to jump on a wagon, especially in a game as slow as this one.

---

I am VERY worried about how Akonas seen to think Blame Spreading isn't scummy... It's a MAJOR scumtell.

Accusing someone without voting is not scummy. Attacking everyone without taking a position can be.

---

Akonas: If you were scum, would you kill QF a) early b) if necessary c) never ?

Well, I think this is a bit of a loaded question considering we're in a game right now. I would try to keep her alive thinking I was town (:D) or kill her if neccesary.

I'm nearly ready to change my vote to Akonas just because QF voted for him.

Why?

[Akonas]

He misread your post, I think (and thought you were implying that she actually was).

[Akonas]

Go town!

[Akonas]

Hunh. Well played.