Mini #534 - Vegetable Mafia (Game Over!)

[destructor]

That said, I have no night actions myself, so regardless of the weird flavour of my role, I'm essentially a vanilla townie.

She already answered that

I don't understand why Oman's death means that we won't get a 2nd kill tonight if we no lynch?

I missed this last time around.

I guess she has, but can Boo still be vanilla in light of the post restriction?

About the 2nd night kill, I didn't say anything specifically in relation to No Lynching. Assuming two scum left, if we lynch town today and there are two night kills, both being town, scum will win. So, in a situation where a second night kill could lose the game for the town, the best thing for the second killer to do is not kill. In my simulations, I assumed scum would kill every night without fail but also factored in the possibilities of a second kill, most of which are worse for the town.

And about Oman, I just don't, or at least didn't, think that scum would have targeted Oman given the fact that he was somewhat suspicious. In my mind, soup or Phate would seem the more logical targets.

Also, why didn't you vote tdp instead of FOSing?

Even though Oman was heavily hinting/blatantly saying he had a unique role which may have threatened both mafia and an SK?

Was he? Where? I noticed the unique role thing, but then we all have unique roles.

gorckat, if Boo's town, who would your next suspect be?

Oh, and Phate, apologies for being snappy. I was just irritated by what looked to me like a anti-town contribution to the game. You've expressed a fleeting suspicion of me throughout the game without ever really outlining a case. If you're going to vote for me, you could at least give us a good reason.

To be honest, I think you've been going under the radar mostly because of the lettuce/safe claim thing. What I mean to say is that being confirmed isn't a reason to be

less

pro-town but it almost seems like that's what you've been for a while now and you're lucky to be getting away with it.


Again, I'll say more about the simulation when we hear more others. If Phate wants to give No Lynching a bit more thought, some more from him would be good too.

[destructor]

EBWOP: *unique role names

[Patrick]

Votecount

destructor (2) -- thedragonsprincess, Phate
thedragonsprincess (1) -- Bookitty
Bookitty (1) -- gorckat

Not voting: Crub, soupfly, destructor
7 alive, 4 to lynch.

[gorckat]

Even though Oman was heavily hinting/blatantly saying he had a unique role which may have threatened both mafia and an SK?

Was he? Where? I noticed the unique role thing, but then we all have unique roles.

There were two places I saw it, clearly in re-reading after his death (I was looking to see if he name dropped who he might have looked at N1, which I didn't see so clearly).

A popcorn nameclaim? We haven't seen a single double up of names yet. We have phate as lettuce and TDP as cucumber. I know why name doesn't double.

I thought otherwise, and mostly due to speculation on the setup, as (you'll find later) my rolename is unique.

gorckat, if Boo's town, who would your next suspect be?

tdp and you. I speculated earlier that tdp could have been scum cashing her safe claim in right away when Phate claimed and your half claim was the next most suspect thing in the game.

[destructor]

Have you actually found anything linking tdp and myself? How conditional is my scumminess to hers and vice versa?

Assuming I'm not scum, where would you look next?

[gorckat]

Have you actually found anything linking tdp and myself? How conditional is my scumminess to hers and vice versa?

I don't think you're scum together; tdp has been clearly against you with the half claim.

Assuming I'm not scum, where would you look next?

If you and Kitty came up town, I'd be looking at tdp and Crub. I'd be surprised if Phate were scum and soup has a solid claim.

[Bookitty]

I gave my reasoning for thinking there was a thedragonsprincess/destructor scumteam here.

I said closer attention should be paid to Phate and Crub because Phate is flying under the radar and his angry comments back and forth with ryan seemed a little overblown and could be distancing. Crub, because he's being very easy-going and accommodating, which does not fit my meta of him as town.

In my own defense I would ask you to look at this post, which led to ryan voting himself and being outed as the godfather. I think scum would have stayed silent then, or claimed a reread was needed, rather than add a vote to an investigation-proof scum.

If you have questions, please ask. I will try to answer them all at once.

[gorckat]

I think scum would have stayed silent then, or claimed a reread was needed, rather than add a vote to an investigation-proof scum.

I believe that's WIFOM. ryan looked like he was going down, so you could have jumped on to try and get as far away as possible.

I think I expressed my suspicions of thedragonsprincess before, due to her comments which seemed to be seeking a counterclaim to destructor's half-claim. I guess there could be a destructor/thedragonsprincess scumteam. My only other suspect is Phate, due to his weird claim for no apparent reason, and scumminess surrounding the ryan lynch, but I don’t see him as a possible scumpartner for thedragonsprincess, so that makes that theory less likely.

Why did you ignore the possibility of Phate/destructor? You think Phate could be scum with one, but not the other?

I think if anyone else has questions, they should get them in before you post again, to maximize your next post.

[gorckat]

Hang on tight- this game is rollin

[Bookitty]

Okay. I'm just going to answer this now.

It's possible that Phate and destructor are linked. I just didn't see any evidence for that. I thought destructor half-claiming cop and then thedragonsprincess half-asking for a counterclaim looked like a rolefishing scumgambit.

Case against Destructor: here


Link between Destructor and thedragonsprincess:
here
and
here

Case against Phate:
here

Point in favour of Phate: here


I think the connection between tdp and Destructor is much better.

[gorckat]

Link between Destructor and thedragonsprincess:
here
and
here

I'd read that as them being opposed. Would make sense for you to link them if you're scum with either (for distancing, obv).

[Crub]

Link between Destructor and thedragonsprincess:
here
and
here

I'd read that as them being opposed. Would make sense for you to link them if you're scum with either (for distancing, obv).

I didn't read it either way, to me the counter-claim thing just gave tdp negative townie points and the half-claim gave destructor eye-rolling points.

vote: thedragonsprincess

tdp makes sense the most ways.

[destructor]

Have you actually found anything linking tdp and myself? How conditional is my scumminess to hers and vice versa?

I don't think you're scum together; tdp has been clearly against you with the half claim.

If tdp is scum, who do you think the other scum is? Likewise, If I am scum, who do you think the other scum is?

Bookitty, assuming tdp and I aren't scum together, I'd like you to answer the same questions. Also, I'd like you to tell us what you expect your role would come up as if you were killed.

Crub, I guess I want to ask you the same questions too, given your vote for tdp.


I've thought about the No Lynching scenario and realised the even though we'd be MUCH better off going that way than lynching town today, we'd be in much the same position that we are right now, just with one less townie. We need to lynch scum today or else risk the game.

Mod:

I get a feeling tdp may have left ms since she's replaced out of her other game on the site, but I wouldn't mind a prod on her in any case. Dunno if it's too early to be asking for a Prod on Phate as well, but he's only posted once so far this day.

[gorckat]

If tdp is scum, who do you think the other scum is? Likewise, If I am scum, who do you think the other scum is?

If tdp is scum, then its Kitty or Crub.

If you are scum, my money is on Kitty with Crub being the next choice.

Kitty hits both ways for me and I don't buy her role explanations. I think she's a better lynch than you or tdp.

[Patrick]

Both Phate and tdp have been prodded.

[destructor]

Given the fact that a mislynch will, at the least, put us into lylo, I would have thought you'd be putting more thought into who you put your vote on.

Your suspicions seem to be based on individual incidents as opposed to any significant connections between suspects. You've said that if Bookitty is town, you'd look at either tdp or myself, but at the same time she's the most likely scum buddy for both of us. Taking into account that you've not shown us any connections between Boo and either tdp or me I wonder how sincere your suspicions actually are. Similarly, you seem to have thrown Crub onto the end of those lists, giving no indication of what would make you feel that way.

Since you believe Phate and soup are town and that only one of me or tdp can be scum, according to what you've told us, if Boo comes up town you'd be looking at a Crub-tdp/destructor scum pair. So, it should follow that you'd be looking at Crub more intently, since you've essentially said that if Boo is town Crub is scum. But you haven't been.

Yes, I find this all very scummy.

Vote: gorckat

[gorckat]

Your suspicions seem to be based on individual incidents as opposed to any significant connections between suspects.

And I'm scum with...?

Taking into account that you've not shown us any connections between Boo and either tdp or me

I've said I think you and tdp are not scum together. Why would I show links there? You're linking to Kitty now by defending this way. Given her "post restriction" and tdp's lack of posts, its hard to see how people react to her being attacked, which is a good chunk of what I'd use to guide me.

Similarly, you seem to have thrown Crub onto the end of those lists, giving no indication of what would make you feel that way

Process of elimination leaving him out of me, soup and Phate. I don't recall him doing anything suspect so far, so he falls to the bottom of the list.

[thedragonsprincess]

I am here I've just been waiting for a response from bookitty and didnt realize she had answered. my bad. I still don't understand why me asking for someone else to counter claim destructor's half-claim..... He hinted that he was a cop, and I was asking if anyone could speak up to prove that he was lying and fake-claimed. I don't see any problem with that.

[Crub]

Because he hadn't fully claimed and knowing the identity of the cop would have been of no benefit to us, and a huge benefit to scum.

Anyway my state of play and hopefully answers to destructor's questions. Firstly obviously soup is clean. Secondly I think kitty is also probably town, it makes no sense to have a Post Restriction like that as scum and even less sense for her to make it up. Everyone else I could go either way. I can see scenario's where any of tdp/destructor/gorckat/Phate in any combination are scum together. tdp, just "fits" for me in more ways. Having said that I haven't read through the thread in it's entirety for a long while so I'm probably missing interactions that rule some combo's out.

[Phate]

Unvote

After a reread, I don't think ryan would run screaming at destructor's lynch like he did if destructor was one of ryan's scumbuddies.

At the same time, though, I don't really like any of the wagons taking form.

Tentative T3PS:
Crub
Bookitty
TDP

[gorckat]

After a reread, I don't think ryan would run screaming at destructor's lynch like he did if destructor was one of ryan's scumbuddies.

Good point. destructor is not as likely scum as I'd thought. I hadn't re-read ryan since early Day 2, iirc. I'd been working on the last two days interactions.

ryan could have been counting on investigative immunity, assuming he had it, given people were starting to back off destructor (that is, ryan was hoping to get looked at on purpose by going after someone seen as pro-town in order to clear himself), but that has too many moving pieces to be forethought that deep that early, imo.

I rank everyone (most to least scummy):

Kitty (not buying her post restriction or investigation proof claim)

(one of these two is Kitty's partner)
tdp (could have burned her safe claim to confirm herself by jumoing in after Phate)
Crub (has slid under the radar, but hasn't done anything notably scummy)


destructor (now seeming not likely scum, given way ryan went after him)

Phate (likely town due to clumsy claim)
soup (mason)

[destructor]

The beef of my concerns with gorckat's suspicions just occurred to me.

...according to what you've told us, if Boo comes up town you'd be looking at a Crub-tdp/destructor scum pair...

Crub is the common ground here, being the obvious target if Boo is mislynched. But here's what he actually said when I asked who he'd look at if she did come up town:

tdp and you.

gorckat, why would you choose to look at us if Boo's town when, according to your own statements, Crub would then essentially be confirmed scum?

This is inconsistent and makes me think that you aren't being sincere about your suspicious, that is, fabricating them, as scum are required to do.

On top of this, as I said before, you've not demonstrated any real attempt to get a better read of Crub, instead just noting that he hasn't done anything scummy. You seem content to risk the mislynch of Bookitty while dropping cursory comments about a player, who

should

be your next suspect, flying under the radar while continuing to let it happen anyway.

Why would you do this? You say Boo hits it both ways for you, but then so does Crub, the only difference being that you've managed to find something more questionable about Boo then Crub. But, again, with the leniency you've shown Crub, this shouldn't be surprising.

To your question about who your scum-buddy would be, honestly, I'm not certain. Crub is a good candidate given you attitude towards him. tdp is another possibility and one I'd be more likely to persue. I've also been considering the more adventurous possibility that you are actually bussing Bookitty, which would actually be a smart scum-move given the loss of our Cop. If you are scum with Boo, it could easily have taken you to end-game and almost guaranteed a scum win.

The same could be equally said of Bookitty and tdp since they're both voting for each other. Bussing at this point of the game would actually be a good idea for scum.

Also, a reread is handy, I think.

At the same time, though, I don't really like any of the wagons taking form.

Tentative T3PS:
Crub
Bookitty
TDP

What does T3PS mean? Also, why don't you like any of the wagons?

[Phate]

Top Three Possible Scum.

I'm really not feeling a major scumvibe from any of the people being considered as lynch candidates. Yes, I realise that's ~the entire town. I'm wondering whether Omancop thinking that Crub is town is the result of an investigation or just scumhunting.

[Patrick]

I've prodded soupfly. If you guys don't pick up the pace then the game will be deadlined.

[gorckat]

WhoMe is a pick, and my mind has changed on Crub to put him on the possiblescumlist too.

@Phate: No. It looks like Crub hadn't been looked at.