Mini 554 - Mafia in Vollville - Over!!

[Incognito]

Vote: Oman

Clearly scum.

[Incognito]

vote: pickmegenius

Why? because I said so!

And. Because Adel has too many votes already...

She only has two votes. Is there something wrong with her having more than that?

Unvote; Vote: opie

[Incognito]

Well, I think in our last game I over reacted to your methods a bit. I didn't hear you out. This go round I promise to hear you out.

What was Adel's alignment in this previous game you're citing?

=======================================

Votecount #1

Matt_S - 2 (ChaosOmega, Xylthixlm)

pickemgenius - 2 (opie, TrustGossip)
Erg0 - 2 (Adel, Guardian)
Xylthixlm - 1 (Matt_S)
Oman - 1 (Erg0)
Guardian - 1 (Oman)
Incognito - 1 (Jitsu)
opie - 1 (Incognito)
TrustGossip - 1 (pickemgenius)


Not voting - 0 (nobody)

With 12 alive, it's 7 to lynch.
Deadline for D1: Saturday March 1, 10:55AM GMT+10
=======================================

[Incognito]

I'm wondering the same thing as Jitsu basically.

Xylthixlm, it seems like by asking your question about lynching, you're equating arbitrary daykills with the whole lynching process. Do you consider the process leading up to a lynch or even the lynch itself to be something not based on information gathered from the thread?

[Incognito]

Ew semantics. I think I was thinking the same definition as Jitsu (number 1):

ar·bi·trar·y (är'bĭ-trěr'ē) Pronunciation Key
adj.

1. Determined by chance, whim, or impulse, and not by necessity, reason, or principle: stopped at the first motel we passed, an arbitrary choice.
2. Based on or subject to individual judgment or preference: The diet imposes overall calorie limits, but daily menus are arbitrary.
3. Established by a court or judge rather than by a specific law or statute: an arbitrary penalty.
4. Not limited by law; despotic: the arbitrary rule of a dictator.

[Incognito]

I think these last few posts have been dumb, as is this one.

If you think these last few posts have been dumb, why not take the initiative to discuss something worthwhile? It's not as if there's an absence of issues to discuss within the thread.

And actually now that I look back on your contribution, you're criticizing the last few posts as being dumb but you yourself have only contributed to discussion about your name.

Unvote; Vote: pickemgenius

[Incognito]

we've had two fantastic discussions over two words, and(pickemgenius/arbitrarily,and two "daykills")
good stuff...

You don't know me.

I forgive you.


i'll comment on stuff when stuff becomes relevant.

You don't think Oman's comments where he speculates about a Texas Justice Mafia set-up and his rather serious assertion that he has a daykill are of relevance?

[Incognito]

We haven't had a mod post since, so it's still possible that Oman's telling the truth.

That's true but vollkan has been active on the site since Oman's post, and I'm pretty sure that he is monitoring this thread at least moderately closely.

[Incognito]

Okay, I used the dayvig as a catalyst for discussion. I used Jitsu because we were in a game together (in fact, I protected him one night and stopped a NK that allowed us to win the game). Jitsu did very little.

Usually (I'm sure you're all aware) I use bandwagons to get discussion going. I tried this stunt in Urban Dead Mafia, and it didn't do much. So I've been looking for a place to do it since.

Oman, could you provide links to these previous games you're citing, namely the location of the thread in Urban Dead Mafia where you tried this stunt before? Is citing these previous games actually of relevance to this game?

[Incognito]

Adel, I've read over your case against opie and the only opie-post that I find myself disliking is this one (particularly the underlined):

I guess I just don't understand why Erg0 is being targetted here,

which makes me suspicious of those voting for him

. I will say that looking back Adel's vote for him has was her first only vote thus far, so perhaps I was a bit hasty with my FOS at her, but something about this just doesn't sit right.

Opie: I'll tell you what was wrong with that picture: three townies were on a wagon of another townie without you or any of your scumbuddies being on the same wagon. You got very happy at having the opportunity to "prove" your pro-town credentials, and then you overreached with this post. If you were better at playing scum you would've waited a while longer before attacking the wagon for being baseless, instead to tried to create an early impression in other players that if Erg0 isn't scum, than Guardian or Oman or maybe even I must be.

I think you hit it on the nose when you state that he seems to be overreaching by extending his suspicions from Guardian and then trickling those same suspicions down onto the other two people who were on the wagon. My problem with your argument against opie is it doesn't factor Jitsu into the equation at all. What are your feelings about Jitsu? Do you not feel like Jitsu's reactions to the Erg0 wagon in some way mirrored opie's reactions?

On a quick reread or the relevant posts from Opie's argument, Oman and Guardian don't sound quite as scummy as I had originally thought, but Guardian's reaction to the pressure on him was interesting. Instead of really addressing the points against him or simply stating he was trying to get reactions (the normal response to being called on pushing a random wagon), he retaliated against Opie and I and, and he did seem just a little evasive with his answers. Was it because Guardian is town and thus was justified to suspect Opie and I for attacking him (and holding back to see our reactions), or was it a scum that was a bit flustered for getting caught on something apparently insignificant? I don't know. At this point, my opinion of Guardian is neutral.

As for Opie, I'm not sure what to think. The random wagon on Erg0 did stick around longer than I would have expected. I admit I got a bit confused myself about what was serious and what was not. I think Opie could have made the same mistake. Could Opie be a scum that got caught overreacting? Yes. I'm not ready to place a vote on Opie yet, but I will be watching what happens with his wagon.

Jitsu, I find myself really disliking the above post. Firstly, could you please point out where Guardian finally admitted that the wagon on Erg0 was indeed random? Secondly, I can't help but get the feeling that you're trying to wipe your hands clean of your earlier actions. You seem to be casting some suspicion towards opie for reacting the way he did around the time of the Erg0 mini-wagon but earlier on, it was you who was claiming to agree with opie's initial posts against Guardian:

I like Opie's post above.

@Guardian: Since you're voting for Erg0 and do seem to be making an attempt to push his wagon here, why don't you explain why you think Erg0 is more deserving of a vote than Oman?

Could you please explain these apparent inconsistencies? Did the re-read really make you feel that dramatically different about Guardian?

Guardian, here's what I dislike about the early happenings. I have no problem with you attempting to generate discussion. I even have no problem with random bandwagons. My problem though is it seems pretty evident to me that you were pretty serious with your thoughts about Erg0 especially when you mentioned the following:

Erg0, why do you want Oman to hang? And why are you threatening use of a day vig?

After a re-read, I think Erg0 is definitely the best place for our votes.

Prior to this post, Xylthixlm mentioned the following about Erg0:

This discussion is detracting from the process of lynching... who has the most votes? Erg0? This discussion is detracting from the process of lynching Erg0.

but yet Xylthixlm never followed up said statement with a vote against Erg0. My issue with this is I feel like if you were really interested in trying to find out people's opinions about the Erg0 wagon as seen here:

Xyl, did you mean definition 3b? If not, please explain what you did mean, and why you thought that it should not have been assumed that you meant 3b.

I'd like everyone to examine the Erg0 wagon and comment on it, say if it is the best place for votes or not, and explain why. If you think there is a better place for votes, explain why that is the best place.

you would have questioned Xylthixlm about why his vote also wasn't on the Erg0 wagon despite his comment from post 42. Instead, you questioned Xyl about something completely unrelated to the Erg0 wagon. Could you please explain why you felt Xyl didn't need to explain his lack of a vote against Erg0?

[Incognito]

Incognito, I really am having a hard time understanding your question. If you want an answer, I'll need you to re-explain what you want me to respond about.

Guardian, my issue is this: In the beginning of the game, you seemed intent on having everyone explain their stance about the Erg0 mini-wagon. Xylthixlm made a post seen here which leads me to believe that he was in favor of the Erg0 wagon but he doesn't follow up this statement with a vote on Erg0. After Xyl's statement, you questioned Xyl about which definition of "arbitrary" he was using and then you polled everyone else to try to find out their stance with respect to the wagon: Post 65. When you questioned Xyl about his usage of the word "arbitrary", why did you not question Xylthixlm about his lack of a vote against Erg0 when he seemed to be in favor of the wagon?

Adel

, please respond to my Post 164.

[Incognito]

Incognito: if I understand correctly, the question you are really asking is "why opie but not Jitsu?"
Jitsu seems far less scummy to me.

Any reason why?

Incognito, why should Guardian have questioned me on my post?

Your post seemed to show that you were in favor of the Erg0 wagon but your actions displayed otherwise; you kept your vote on Matt_S. I just feel that if Guardian really wanted to find out people's opinions about the Erg0 wagon, his questioning of you might have been a good place to start. It certainly would have been a better question from him than "which meaning of 'arbitrary' did you mean?"

I'd like an answer to this question from him and then I'll finally post my suspicions.

[Incognito]

Awesome.

Unvote; Vote: Guardian

I think Guardian is scum. Why? Let's have a look at what he's done this game.

1) Xylthixlm mentioned this previously and it's something I noticed also. Guardian has been asking a lot of questions, but I feel like he's asking them just for the sake of asking questions. I don't see any logical progression with 1) his choice of questions and 2) what he does with the answers he receives to his questions. The pattern that I've seen especially pre-Adel's case is Question - answer. Question - answer. Question - answer. I just feel that when a person is town he/she usually asks questions to try and find something and the questioning usually has some order and cohesion. The answers received will usually lead to some kind of resolution that you actually do something with. I think all of this is lacking in Guardian's bout of questions, and I feel like he's waiting for

someone else

to use his questions and the answers he receives to his questions to spur a case against the person he happens to be questioning.

2) I really disliked this post from Guardian: Post 74 and it troubles me that nobody called him out about it. Opie posed a case against Guardian and instead of responding to the case in a way that might serve to decrease the suspicions of both Jitsu and opie, he cast deflective suspicion back at both opie and Jitsu to completely spin the case around and target the both of them. His response is backhanded, and I would go as far as to say that his backhanded response to opie's case is what triggered the heightened suspicion that Adel has spurred to circulate around opie. There is no Adel algorithm to finding scum, people.

3) I already mentioned how Guardian seems to be asking questions for the sake of asking questions. Look at Guardian's posts following his backhanded response to opie:

Opie's post actually heightened my suspicion there -- I'd really like a good explanation from both opie, and Jitsu who categorically "liked opie's post" to explain why everyone voting Erg0 is worthy of suspicion.

Oh really? Where's your vote?

@Incognito: Not really, plus this game I promised myself that I would approach Adel with a clean slate.

Well, I think in our last game I over reacted to your methods a bit. I didn't hear you out. This go round I promise to hear you out.

Why did you make this promise, opie?

Are you gonna vote for him anytime soon?

unvote, vote:opie

obvscum trying to hard to be seen scumhunting.
This vote is good through to his lynch, which should take about six pages.

Could you explain this, possibly with reference to post #s and/or quotes?

Ah, so Adel did the grunt work for you.

Why do you think he was communicating with his scum buddies in his first post of the game? Also, can you re-clarify -- what exactly was he communicating to them?

Come again? You don't think it is a tell, now?

So, Adel, you think it was a tell, as in with that bit you crossed out, but not that he was communicating anything to his buddies?

FoS: opie

From Adel's answers, I think her case makes sense, and seems sincere. Adel is a tricky devil as scum, and in my experience often wrong as town, though :\.

Also, while opie answered my question of him well, I'd like to ask him further:
Why do you want to keep an open mind to Adel's methods, when she was wrong in the only game you were in with her?

I don't want to move my vote to opie quite yet. I want to re-read the full game when I get a chance. There is strong suspicion against opie and I don't want a quick wagon/forced claim -- at least not until I have re-read the game.

Questioning the case and giving an opie an FoS. Trying to make sure the case is bandwagon worthy and that everyone seems to be buying a bit, eh?

I tentatively support Adel's points on opie. I believe that she genuinely believes in them, but that doesn't make opie scum. However, the clarification she made about opie's first post, in addition to the last part about not recognizing things as they were, and instead nailing everyone on Erg0's wagon, make me want to vote him.

I am still very interested in what opie has to say, especially in response to my question in 178.

unvote: Erg0 vote: opie

And finally your vote. But before you vote, you make a few comments that are so meticulously placed that it seems pre-emptive. Are you trying to give yourself an out for if and when opie shows up as town? Oh but then it gets better!:

It seems rather that your 181 followed my 178, not the other way round, no?

You didn't vote in 178, therefor you were not on the wagon. You vote in 183.

Try harder.

You didn't express any suspicion of opie or intent to vote him until after I did.

Try harder.

Oh, but

you

didn't vote for opie until Adel used all of the questions you had been asking and did the actual grunt work until you

finally

decided to follow suit and give opie a vote of your own. Interesting.

4) Guardian responded to my question the way I thought he would but here's the kicker:

The second is that, even if you are unsatisfied with the above, when I read that post of Xyl, I took it to mean that he was joking, so I didn't really see an inconsistency at all. The ellipse (...) and tone of his post made me think he was making a joke that discussion was interrupting lynching someone who he didn't even care enough about lynching to remember their name.

So you were able to determine that Xyl was joking around in his post because he used an ellipsis and a certain tone but the opening posts made by Erg0 in which he includes smilies and chooses to day-vig someone for not knowing the capital of Australia weren't comical enough for you? That makes absolutely no sense to me.

I think Guardian is scum, and I think he is the correct lynch for today because he conveniently took a comical mini-wagon against Erg0 in the beginning and spun the entire thing around to paint opie in a bad light.

[Incognito]

That's not the point of my question.

The point is Incognito asks his question before posting his case on me, and then uses my response to his question in the case. I can't think of any way I could have answered that Incognito wouldn't have started his post with

"Awesome

vote: Guardian"

so again I wonder why he waited for me to respond/how I might have responded that would have changed his mind.

Guardian, it's simple really. I knew that Xyl's comment about the Erg0 wagon was a joke. I also knew that Erg0's opening comments were jokes as well, but for some reason, you decided to really push for responses to those comments which lead me and a few others to believe that you didn't see Erg0's statements as jokes. So I thought to myself: "Well, maybe this Guardian fellow just has a difficult time determining what's humor on the internet and what isn't. I certainly wouldn't want to miscategorize him as scum if he really has a difficult time making that distinction." Interestingly by responding the way you did, you proved without a shadow of a doubt quite the contrary - you're actually quite well-versed at determining the difference between a joke post and a serious one. You broke Xyl's posts down to his very ellipses.

By the way, there was a lot more to my case besides the difference between Erg0's joke post and Xyl's joke post but yet you chose to only respond to the last portion of my case.

I'm not sold on Guardian atm tbh.

I know. It's far too early to bus your buddy. Wait until he gets another vote or two.

[Incognito]

Guardian, you're completely strawmanning my case against you.

When you initially responded to my case against you, the only portion of it that you responded to was point number 4. You're correct in saying that even if you had responded in such a way that led me to believe that you were bad at identifying humor I probably would have still presented my case against you. My issues with your play would have still existed but the difference would have been that the case would have been less lengthy and maybe slightly less substantial. Let's consider point number 4 in which you respond to my question about Xylthixlm to be the icing on the cake.

I'd like others to comment on the case, plz.

[Incognito]

pickemgenius, what are you talking about?

It seems like you're basically getting on Guardian.

It seems like Matt is on Guardian.

just sayin.

pickem, opie has already mentioned that Matt hasn't been on Guardian for some time now. But even if he was currently still on Guardian, is there a reason he shouldn't be?

[Incognito]

Incognito might be a good third, I don't see I straw-man'd him significantly, just pointed out an inconsistency that he didn't refute.

Wow, people. I am now 100% certain Guardian is scum. Guardian, what leads you to believe that I "might be a good third"? Have you seen anything scummy about my play or is it because I chose to target you with a case that you have yet to reply to? Also, I think you really need to reply to Adel's post from before where even

she

points out that your case against Matt_S is completely dependent on opie being scum. Erg0 brought up some excellent points in his summary which explains this quite nicely.

This new post that you've written is what is called the scummy version of OMGUS. And you

did

straw man my case against you. You questioned a single portion of my case, I replied to your question about my case, you point out what you labeled as a contradiction in my reply to your question, and you're now trying to push that because this contradiction exists, my whole case is invalid? That's strawmanning. I can't wait until this game is over so that I can list your strawmanning of my case in the Wiki as one of the premier examples of strawmanning. I really do have to thank you for this.

[Incognito]

Remind me to never play in a game with either of them again.

[Incognito]

*neither!

[Incognito]

Adel and Xylthixlm, did you even read my case against Guardian? Did you even read his response to my case against him? Adel, I've read your case against opie, and I've already mentioned the only portion of your case that I will give you credit for but you refuse to even consider the case that I've presented against Guardian. Stop being so ignorant and thick-headed.

[Incognito]

Stop being so ignorant and thick-headed.

I'd advise against being intentionally insulting if you want to make friends or influence people in the future.

100% bullshit is more like it.

Oh. I guess you're not the insulting type.

P.S. I'm not here to be your "friend". I'm here to play Mafia.

Incognito, which "response to your case" of mine are you referencing?

Guardian, I refuse to answer your questions since you have now deliberately not answered a few of mine.

Yeah Incog, if you are town, you're certainly not winning me over with "is 100% scum". Adel could be convincing tricky scum, she is saying a lot of what I "want" to hear.

Your unwillingness to work with me makes me unlikely to work with you, which is a shame if you're town.

Are you even reading the game and what you're typing? I said that I am 100% certain that

you

are scum. You're suggesting that I need to win you over about your own alignment? I also never even said what I think about Adel's alignment.

Further, you said "she is saying a lot of what I want to hear" but it was

you

who adopted

her

case on opie and agreed with her on Matt_S. How exactly does that work?

[Incognito]

Stop being so ignorant and thick-headed.

I'd advise against being intentionally insulting if you want to make friends or influence people in the future.

100% bullshit is more like it.

Oh. I guess you're not the insulting type.

P.S. I'm not here to be your "friend". I'm here to play Mafia.

I've seen a scum say this like 3 times and never a townie.

WOULD YOU MIND LINKING TO ALL THREE SO WE DON'T HAVE TO TAKE YOU AT YOUR WORD?

Now you sound like Incognito.

I strongly object to this.

[Incognito]

Ah, okay. Carry on then. =)

[Incognito]

vote: opie

ChaosOmega, you gonna explain that vote or what?

[Incognito]

I take it that my case on Jitsu hasn't set anyone's world on fire? Comments would be nice.

Erg0, I actually like your case against Jitsu. It's basically what I was picking up also when I called him out in one of my earlier posts about how he was trying to wipe his hands clean of his earlier actions around your mini-wagon. I'd certainly love to see his response to everything recent also.

As for other people I'm suspicious of, the top 3 would also include Xylthixlm and Incognito.

Can you explain why? It really irks me when people make unsupported statements like this.

[Incognito]

@Incognito: In 99, you ask Oman to provide links to the games he cited in 87. Did you ever look at this meta and draw any conclusions from it?

I did look at this meta. As for conclusions drawn, I think the two instances were somewhat different. In this game, he seemed more confident and sincere about his day-vig abilities whereas in the game he cited, it seemed more clear that he was bluffing about these abilities.

You forgot to provide your reasoning.

I didn't forget. I'm just not going to follow up on it too much yet. Besides, there's more of day 1 for me to watch your actions without me saying what actions of yours I'm watching.

I hope I'm not the only person who finds this scummy.

I didn't like this post either, especially when you couple that with the fact that he completely overlooked my post where I asked him almost the same question.

[Incognito]

Welcome aboard, Patrick.

[Incognito]

Matt_S is so clever that he noticed the trap and fell for it anyways.

qft

Why am I not seeing this?

[Incognito]

I, too, would support a Jitsu lynch as opposed to a Matt_S lynch. I feel like a lot of Matt_S's posts that have been interpreted as scummy could possibly be linked to newbie-tells as opposed to scum-tells.

(kind of supporting a suspicion of someone whilst asking for someone else to make the case -- but if I'm intepretting the accusation wrongly then feel free to point it out).

This is correct. He seemed to be casting some suspicion towards opie but he was unwilling to place a vote on him. The vote only came after the case was fostered by Adel and a few people expressed at least minimal support for the case. If you could point me in the direction of this meta that supports that he does this as town, that would be nice.

[Incognito]

I've read through the Big Love Mafia game, and I think that situation was very different from the one we have here with opie. The Pick Your Poison Mafia scenario, on the other hand, does seem very similar to what has happened in our game though. That addresses at least one point of my case but there's so much more to my case than his lack of backing up his suspicions with a vote (for example, his reaction(s) to my case). I think my vote is still in the right spot for now.

[Incognito]

I didn't read all 110 pages of it. o_O

[Incognito]

I, too, would support a Jitsu lynch as opposed to a Matt_S lynch.

I'm shocked.

Why?

[Incognito]

@oman do you still feel that Jitsu is pro-town? He was so good as town in our last game together, and I buy him as town so far in this game, that I want to defend him. Care to join me?

Eh, missed that.

Well, I would be happy to help you. I feel that Jitsu is flailing a bit, but I do not believe him to be scum / he should not be lynched yet. I should go through looking at the cases on him. I'd be willing to be there is at least 1 or 2 scum on him right now.

Oman, this post is disgusting and it reminds me very strongly of what opie was receiving some flak for in Adel's case when he was casting some suspicion towards Guardian and then trickling that suspicion down onto the other two people on the Erg0 mini-wagon. At the time of this post, Jitsu had accumulated three votes: one from Erg0 (a person who you previously labeled as "seeming very pro-town"), one from Patrick (a person whom you have yet to voice any suspicions about), and one from Guardian (a person whom I believe is scum but who you have yet to comment on especially in relation to my case against him).

So I ask you, which of these three people do you believe fall into this category of "1 or 2 scum"? Also, why do you believe this to be the case?

Huge FoS: Oman

[Incognito]

Oh and P.S. I was beginning my read where I left off last time, and I just finished reading Jitsu's responses to a number of the issues that have been raised against him. I actually found myself liking his responses. He seems level-headed and genuine and doesn't seem to be over-reacting about the spotlight being on him. Some portions of his response I really don't care for (I really despise it when people say stuff to the effect of "trust me, I'm town") but his response seemed very strong and clear.

He's listed who he believes is pro-town so far, but I'd be more interested to see where his current suspicions lie to form a better read on him.

[Incognito]

I still stand by it, except I thought the wagon was bigger than 3. So I must say that 1 scum or maybe none.

So you stand by it, you say, but now it might be 1 scum or none as opposed to the 1 or 2 scum you said had been attacking Jitsu? That still doesn't really answer the question. Which of those people (Patrick, Erg0, or Guardian) do you believe to be the scum and

why

do you think that?

=======================================

Votecount #16

opie - 4 (Adel, Oman, ChaosOmega, pickemgenius)

Jitsu - 3 (Erg0, Patrick, Guardian)
Guardian - 2 (opie, Incognito)
Oman - 1 (Jitsu)
Xyltixlm - 1 (Matt_S)
Matt_S - 1 (Xylthixlm)

Not voting - 0 (nobody)

With 12 alive, it's 7 to lynch.
Deadline for D1: Saturday March 1, 10:55AM GMT+10
=======================================

[Incognito]

I'm glad people are finally seeing the light about Guardian.

Adel, I'm interested in understanding the logic you used to come up with the content from this post. Because your view of me there stands in direct contradiction to your previous view of me seen here.

Oman, please respond to this post here please.

[Incognito]

Okay.

Is it just me or is anyone else getting lurker vibes from Oman?

[Incognito]

I disagree. I've played with him previously in Newbie 506, and he was more than active within that thread while being aligned on the side of the town.

[Incognito]

I still stand by it, except I thought the wagon was bigger than 3. So I must say that 1 scum or maybe none.

So you stand by it, you say, but now it might be 1 scum or none as opposed to the 1 or 2 scum you said had been attacking Jitsu? That still doesn't really answer the question. Which of those people (Patrick, Erg0, or Guardian) do you believe to be the scum and

why

do you think that?

Oman, please respond to this post here please.

Should I pre-emptively quote post 463 too?

[Incognito]

I

really

dislike this opie wagon because it has three people on it who I'm receiving very scummy vibes from (Guardian, ChaosOmega, and Oman). ChaosOmega and Oman both have contributed very little to the game except to poke their heads in every once in awhile and mention who they think is scummy, and I've already outlined my suspicions of Guardian fairly throughly in a number of posts. Oman has even gone so far as to completely ignore my previous questions that I've asked of him. I can't help but get the feeling that opie is an innocent townie who's being rung up for dubious reasons.

If he is the lynch for today and does turn up scum, then obviously I'm going to have to re-read and see how things look with that new knowledge. I just have a hard time believing that these two people in particular (Oman and ChaosOmega) who both seem to not even be reading the thread can come to this conclusion that opie is scum without even weighing in on the other possibilities.

[Incognito]

I just said it...

[Incognito]

Anyone you want to mention besides them?

Not at the moment, no. I'm not going as far as you or Adel had earlier to state that the likeliest scum team is so and so and so because that seems plain old stupid to me, but what I'm stating is that the actions of you, Oman, and ChaosOmega have been the most questionable

thus far

.

For now though, Incognito, do you agree with the case that Jitsu made against Guardian?

I found myself liking the exchange had between Jitsu and Guardian and do think the case Jitsu made against Guardian makes a lot of sense. I'd love to say this politely but for lack of better terms, I feel like Guardian pulled something out of his ass by claiming that Adel had some sort of "role-based information" to determine that he's somehow town. It seems like Guardian was backtracking to me. ChaosOmega's post where he interjects seemed like a "hey, scumbuddy, pick up the slack" kind of post.

Also, I really dislike how Guardian seems to find everyone and anyone scummy just for voicing negative opinion about him. He's gone down the entire list basically: opie, Matt_S, Incognito, Adel, Jitsu... there comes a point where that's clearly too many people to be scum all at once, and if he truly is town, he needs to realize the possibility that perhaps he's playing really badly.

[Incognito]

Where've I said you were scum? Above and beyond that, this is obviously a mis-characterization of my stance at this point: I just made a post with a paragraph describing why I am strongly leaning Adel town right now. And where is Jitsu in my top three scum prospects? And isn't Matt_S supporting lynching opie over me? And I don't find opie scummy for voting me per se, I find him scummy for voting me because the vote seems very outdated, and not supported by... reason.

You've been making quite a bit of sense, but this last part seems... well like you said, seems a bit like you are pulling it out of your ass.

Oh you're really asking for it now aren't ya? Let's look at the thread locations where you've done exactly as I've mentioned above:

First indication:

Opie's post actually heightened my suspicion there -- I'd really like a good explanation from both opie, and Jitsu who categorically "liked opie's post" to explain why everyone voting Erg0 is worthy of suspicion.

Opie and Jitsu suspicions.

Second indication:

I find an opie-Matt_S scum-group not unlikely.

Incognito might be a good third, I don't see I straw-man'd him significantly, just pointed out an inconsistency that he didn't refute.

What's that? Incognito a good third? I guess you

did

label me as scum previously.

Third indication:

I've seen a scum say this like 3 times and never a townie.

That seems rather definitive, no?

Fourth indication:

Thinking about the last page with a clearer mind...

Both Jitsu and Adel still seem very scummy.

And then Jitsu and Adel suddenly become scummy also.

So let's count: 1 - Opie and Jitsu. 2 - Opie and Matt_S with Incognito a third possibility. 3 - Incognito more definitive. 4 - Jitsu and Adel.

That's the five players that I mentioned in my post. I'm not talking about your current stance on players; I'm talking about the stances you've taken on players

after

they've voiced their negative opinions about you.

[Incognito]

I've read up on the recent stuff with respect to Erg0, and I'm puzzled as to why Guardian and Oman seem to think Erg0's comment about lynching him if opie and Matt_S come back as scum is a scummy comment. Erg0 has mentioned that a number of the votes that have piled onto the opie wagon have been wagonny. He's also mentioned that he's not completely sold on the case and mentioned what he thinks the case on opie boils down to:

Again, my point is that saying "we shouldn't have another claim on day 1" is not an excuse for a bad lynch. If I think that someone else is scum then I see no harm in getting a claim from them, regardless of how many players have claimed previously.

Generally, I am concerned that the current arguments in favour of hammering opie seem to boil down to "that wasn't a bad day 1, let's kill the guy with the most votes and get on with things".

Because of these facts, it follows logically to me that Erg0 believes this wagon could be scum-pushed and that opie is likely to be town. His comment seems more like a bet to me than some slip that he knows their alignment: "I'm willing to bet my own life that opie and Matt_S don't come back as scum if lynched". The arguments made by Oman and Guardian as of recent where they both go as far as to include HoS's seem like a complete straw man of Erg0 to me.

There was something that Guardian mentioned earlier though that seems more likely to imply that Guardian has some implied knowledge about opie's alignment than Ergo's comment:

As for putting it back on: opie is my top choice right now,

and I am as responsible as anyone for his lynch

, but there are some lines of discussion people are bringing up I'd like to pan out before a lynch.

To mention that you are "as responsible as anyone for his lynch", it seems to me like you

know

that opie will appear as town once he's lynched and it seems almost like you're paving the way for your Day 2 defense for if/when this occurs.

Aside from that, I found myself liking Patrick's vote on ChaosOmega. I've read up on some of ChaosOmega's past games where he's been scum, and I've noticed that he was just as lurker-ish in them as he has been in this game.

@pickemgenius:

What are your current feelings about ChaosOmega and Oman in this game? What are your current feelings about Guardian in this game?

[Incognito]

This of course assumes opie is town, which I'm not at all sold on. If he is scum, will you find me significantly less suspicious, Incognito?

Not significantly less suspicious but certainly less suspicious. I feel like Adel's case and the subsequent opie-wagon spurred off of your backhanded response to opie's/Jitsu's case against you from way earlier in the game. Your response was too slippery to fall into the realm of busing, in my eyes.

[Incognito]

question: has Guardian had a strong wagon on him yet in this game?

Not strong enough. I think he should be at L-1 right now.

[Incognito]

1. who?
2. Oman is aussie, it's hard to keep track of him, nothing unusual in what i see however.
3. I think Guardian is pretty town as i have said earlier.

Riiiiiiiiight. What the hell does Oman being Aussie have to do with his alignment?

[Incognito]

1. who?
2. Oman is aussie, it's hard to keep track of him, nothing unusual in what i see however.
3. I think Guardian is pretty town as i have said earlier.

Riiiiiiiiight. What the hell does Oman being Aussie have to do with his alignment?

Aussies are backwards.

You obviously missed reading the last part of that sentence.

I read the entire sentence and it made no damn sense. Erg0's an Aussie too. Does that mean it's hard to keep track of him also?

[Incognito]

Something keeps bugging me.

Opie has been the deadline lynch for.. most of the day, has he not? But yet, he still hasn't gotten enough votes to be lynched. In the games I've read, I can't remember seeing a lot of Day 1's going all the way to deadline without a hammer.

There's got to be a clue in that somehow, but I'm still not sure what it means.

Maybe I should do some meta and see if there are any patterns there.

There's only been a single case against opie (Adel's case which was a pretty crappy case on its own, in my opinion). The only additional point that I've seen added to the mix came from Xylthixasdlakndsakd about opie's sig:noise ratio. Aside from that, I just recall seeing a whole bunch of "OMG ur so rite... i wana join da wagon too lololol"'s.

Imo, if opie comes back as scum, then I'd be more willing to believe that the people on the wagon were scum busing their buddy rather than town thinking they had a good case on the guy because the case basically sucked.

@Xylthixlm:

You mentioned that you're voting for opie as opposed to Guardian because you think he's scummier and is therefore the better wagon. Your additional point against opie was that his sig:noise ratio was too low. What do you think of ChaosOmega? Why is he not a better lynch than opie?

[Incognito]

When did Adel mention it?

[Incognito]

When did Adel mention it?

He mentioned the wagon in general, not my specific vote. I think the reason he didn't FoS me was because I brought it up.

I think Adel's a

she

not a he. And the point Adel brought up wasn't entirely similar to the same issue that Erg0 and Oman are discussing. Adel seems to be linking both Erg0 and Patrick with opie. opie has now been linked to practically everyone in the game. On the contrary, Erg0 and Oman are discussing the fact that your vote seemed to follow Erg0's, and they found it interesting that you felt the need to explain or at least comment on your choice to place the vote directly after Erg0.

[Incognito]

orly?

Unvote; Vote: ChaosOmega

I encourage others to join the wagon that brings the lurker-scum down to the gallows until his body hangs limp.

[Incognito]

For all you've posted, so much of it is just useless bullshit. You've posted enough to not be labeled a lurker, but all you've done is go after Matt_S and switch over to opie near deadline to make sure he's lynched. However, I'm not sure what to make of this, because I find all 3 of you suspicious. I didn't like the way you switched over, either. You just went, "Oh, we're close to deadline, let me make sure opie gets lynched." It just looks like bussing to me.

This is hardly a player-by-player summary.

[Incognito]

What about Incognito?

Getting more of a neutral read on him. In the beginning, the way he was arguing with Guardian struck me as scummy, and even later, he's posted things that just look like distancing. However, looking back through his posts, his arguments have been better and I'm less suspicous of him than I was before. If Guardian turns up scum, though, Incognito will be someone to look at more closely.

Question to both ChaosOmega and Matt_S:

What's scummy about the way I attacked Guardian?

I don't see the obsession that you (ChaosOmega) and Adel have to link me with Guardian. I'd hate to get WIFOMy but think about it logically: Guardian was probably one of the least suspicious people at the time that I brought up my massive case against him (Jitsu backed his suspicions down against Guardian and opie was receiving much more attention). Would it make sense for me to suddenly renew suspicions against Guardian if he and I were scum with one another? And I shouldn't just say renew - my case against Guardian was far more elaborate than the initial case raised by both opie and Jitsu. As Killah Nine would say: ah wanted dat Guardian nigga dead.

Btw, stop being so wishy-washy. It'll help reduce the obviousness of you being scum.

[Incognito]

Xyl, what's that?

What about Incognito?

Patrick, what was the point of this question anyway?

[Incognito]

@Patrick:

I don't see where specifically ChaosOmega mentions that I'm one of the three people he's suspicious of. He does mention "three people" but it seemed unclear (to me at least) which three people he was talking about. I was under the impression he was talking about the last three people to join the opie wagon; not the ChaosOmega wagon.

I find his response just plain strange. It seems like he feels like the explanation of his vote on opie is more justified than a lot of the other people's votes on opie when people (namely Erg0) have mentioned just how wagony CO's vote actually was.

[Incognito]

Ah. I forgot about that post. Makes sense now.

[Incognito]

^ that's not the post of scum. That's the post of a townie being taken advantage of.

opie, who are you most suspicious of and why? Give us a top three or something.

[Incognito]

Second, I'm suprised that I haven't been hammered yet. I also suprises me that there was some waffling as to whether or not the town should find another lynch, rather than make the case I am the best lynch.

^^^ This.

The people who have been trumpeting opie's lynch have been timidly hopping on and off the wagon instead of really pushing forward and solidifying why the case against opie makes perfect sense. The wagony voters have done just that - wagoned and have not provided further explanation OR input about their feelings on anyone else in the game. All I've seen is a bunch of this person is probably scum with this person and this person is probably scum with this person. That's not fucking scum-hunting; that's a shitty excuse to post and get the day over with.

[Incognito]

...Plus, I wanted to see (if ChaosOmega is scum) if any of his buddies would bus him

This makes no sense though. Are you saying that you've been holding off your vote from ChaosOmega because you want to see if any of his buddies would bus him?

That requires a few conditions:

1) ChaosOmega is definitely scum.
2) You know with great certainty who ChaosOmega's scum buddies are.

I really don't like these series of posts, Jitsu.

[Incognito]

Jitsu, I'll be lynched regardless of your vote. I should have came on earlier to claim. I'm the cop. Was trying to stay in the background so I wouldn't get nightkilled.

Wtf? Why would you claim when you're not even the one who would be lynched in this case?!

[Incognito]

This is retarded.

Unvote; Vote: Guardian

I'm not willing to risk it.

[Incognito]

Wait, when the hell did Guardian switch his vote to CO?

Can we lynch Guardian please? OBVSCUM all day.

[Incognito]

I too would rather wait and see the result of his "investigation" before deciding on what to do with my vote.

[Incognito]

Reading is tech.

Vote: ChaosOmega

[Incognito]

Reading is tech.

What exactly do you mean by that?

Guardian,

Watcher

, was shot Night 1

I'm assuming you're an SK.

======================================================

Votecount #29

ChaosOmega - 3 (Erg0, Adel, Incognito)

Not voting - 6 (Matt_S, Oman, ChaosOmega, Xylthixlm, Patrick, Jitsu)

With 9 alive, it's 5 to lynch.
Deadline for D2: Friday April 5, 11:30AM GMT+10
================================================

[Incognito]

A sanity challenged cop in a mini-game?

[Incognito]

In addition to what Erg0 said, why not just come out and say something like - "I got a guilty on Guardian but since he turned up town, obviously I'm sanity challenged"? When you say it after I called you out about it, it basically looks like you're backtracking.

[Incognito]

A little hasty there...

Unvote

Not yet.

[Incognito]

Me neither (obviously), but I thought it was interesting that both of the players that I opposed lynching yesterday are now dead. Obviously opie was a communal decision, but I doubt that it was a coincidence that Guardian was killed last night (unless he was giving off power role tells that I missed).

I don't understand why you feel this way, Erg0. It's not like you were the only one who was opposed to lynching Guardian yesterday. Why do you feel like this night-kill of Guardian was somehow used to set you and only you up?

[Incognito]

I have a few things to add here.

Oman, I still really, really,

really

dislike your play from Day 1. Aside from your question avoidance (btw, you

still

never answered my questions that I repeatedly copied over and over) there were other things about your play that struck me as scummy. You can give yourself a pat on the back for being the third vote on opie. I don't have an issue with this. But let's have a look at your vote:

Unvote Vote Opie

Adel has convinced me with a majority of her arguments (I feel some are incorrect, but confirmation bias explains those).

In conclusion: TrustGossip must stop posting. Opie must stop breathing.

You placed your vote on opie despite the fact that you conceded that Adel's case on opie wasn't water-tight. Then on February 25th after mentioning that you approve of the opie wagon, you made it a point to mention the following:

I'm the first.

No lip from you or I won't "happy scumday" you tomorrow.

which is an interesting post to me. Yes, you became "the first" vote on opie because both Adel and Xylthixlm (the two people who voted for opie prior to you) had unvoted but the fact that you would even

mention

that seems odd. I'm trying really, really, really hard not to read this post as: "Yes, I know opie will come up as town but since I was the first vote, I obviously can't be scum. First voters aren't scum."

Then your actions following your vote got even weirder and more anti-town to me. There were plenty of other things that happened after you placed your vote on opie that you probably could have and

should have

talked about if you were town but you chose not to. All we got from you were statements like this:

Adel, how about Big Love mafia?

Eww. Please don't mention that game.

Getting a strong town read off Adel.

I approve of the Opie wagon.

It could've been someone else, I didn't check.

which really don't amount to anything at all. In my opinion, if you were town, even if you felt like your vote on opie was completely warranted (which, by the way, I find it hard to believe since you even conceded that Adel's case wasn't water-tight) you probably should have commented on the other developments that were going on. In fact, you even promised that you would comment on these developments but instead you never did:

Xyl and ChaosOmega have already been allowed to get away with majorly wagonny votes on opie

I will review these.

And by the time the deadline drew to a close, it was too late.

So now my questions:

1) Can you please review these "wagonny votes" mentioned previously by Erg0 and provide your thoughts about them?

2) Can you please finally respond to my question that I only asked what three or four times in the thread?

3) Can you please explain why you agreed with a case that wasn't water-tight and why you didn't feel the need to comment on everything else that was going on in the thread throughout Day 1?

More later~

[Incognito]

if you were town, even if you felt like your vote on opie was completely warranted you probably should have commented on the other developments that were going on.

I can't believe you thought you'd get away with that. You didn't quote my erg0 situation or anything, you just quoted my 1 liners.

Ah, but I already gave my opinion about your Erg0 situation in this post. It seemed like a straw man of Erg0 to me and therefore it, too, didn't really amount to much in my opinion.

[Incognito]

Matt_S, so basically what your analysis boils down to is if you're nice, you're pro-town and if you're mean, you're anti-town? Rofl.

And now you can't recall me doing anything scummy from yesterday but you yourself mentioned yesterday that my reluctance to answer the questions Guardian posed for me was scummy?

[Incognito]

Why does this come as a surprise to everyone? She pretty much admitted that the case against opie was pure bullshit here:

I didn't even remember his first post, but when I saw it his post history when I was collecting those quotes for you I figured I could fit it in pretty nicely. A good way to start or maybe not?
What I was writing was true, but it didn't really answer your question. I spent some time writing it so I didn't want to just throw it away when I examined why I was dodging the question. I don't think he was trying to "communicate" anything with his first post. My bad.

This is why the opie wagon looked even shadier to me at the end of the day than when it began. Hence, Oman is likely scum as is ChaosOmega (and maybe even Adel).

@Incognito: Is your most recent post referring to my suspicions today or my suspicions yesterday? At first I thought it was the latter, but I'm not sure. Because I'm suspicious of more nice people than mean people today.

Yeah, I just reread it. It doesn't matter whether you find the nicer people or the meaner people to be scummy. Your view of what's scummy and what isn't seems very simplistic. The meanest person in the world could sometimes be aligned on the side of the town. My point is if you're just going to be judging people's play based on their demeanor, then how do you expect to actually find scum?

[Incognito]

Vote: Oman

======================================================

Votecount #32

ChaosOmega - 1 (Erg0)

Xylthixlm - 1 (Adel)
Oman - 1 (Incognito)

Not voting - 6 (Matt_S, ChaosOmega, Xylthixlm, Patrick, Jitsu, Oman)

With 9 alive, it's 5 to lynch.
Deadline for D2: Friday April 5, 11:30AM GMT+10
================================================

[Incognito]

Adel, in that link that you provided where you were the Vig, did you strangle someone?

[Incognito]

I am voting for Oman because of the points I've mentioned in my previous posts about him. You can do a post history of me here to see why I think Oman's play has been extremely questionable. This recent post is yet another post that just doesn't sit well with me:

@Oman, Xylthixlm, ChaosOmega: Adel alleges that the Opie wagon was random and designed to draw out scum. What are your responses to this?

I was getting town reads off Adel, so I trusted her.

I don't think he's "blaming adel for his actions" as he mentioned in Post 802. My problem is if Oman's town, his duty and obligation is to the town. No matter what kind of read he's receiving off of someone it would still be his job to critique any arguments against someone to determine the validity of said argument. To fully trust someone (as he mentions above) is strongly anti-town.

Couple this statement with his past actions and bingo, I think Oman is scum. I'm just not receiving any sense of urgency or any sense of forcing the issue that I would expect from Oman-town. He's responding to comments within thread that are only directed to him instead of examining the actions of others (lack of scum-hunting).

ChaosOmega will likely be today's lynch. My vote just marks my belief about where we should press forward from after Day 2, ceteris paribus.

[Incognito]

Is that an unfamiliar phrase to you?

[Incognito]

Yeah, sorry, I was an Econ minor, and I've never really been able to use that phrase outside of the classroom (until now). Plus I thought it sounded cool and hoped it would help me sound smarter so that we could bring Oman to L-1.

fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt?

[Incognito]

Plus I thought it sounded cool and hoped it would help me sound smarter so that we could bring Oman to L-1.

Tell me, do you want me at -1 or lynched?

Both.

I liked Patrick's post above. Patrick, are we sharing the same brain?

[Incognito]

Adel, your list of priorities has changed:

1. get scum lynched

2. stay alive.

3. have fun

3. I want to draw the NK (suck that scum, ha ha!)

[Incognito]

If you're town, you wanting to draw the NK earlier would suggest that you felt that opie's scum buddies would be so frustrated by your abilities, they would want to kill you off for being a good scum hunter. I don't see how that correlates with what you've just said now about wanting to stay alive. I'll need to think about this further.

======================================================

Votecount #33

Oman - 2 (Incognito, Adel)

ChaosOmega - 1 (Erg0)

Not voting - 6 (Matt_S, ChaosOmega, Xylthixlm, Patrick, Jitsu, Oman)

With 9 alive, it's 5 to lynch.
Deadline for D2: Friday April 5, 11:30AM GMT+10
================================================

[Incognito]

Just to state the obvious, this was ChaosOmega's post explaining his lack of participation:

Jitsu, I'll be lynched regardless of your vote. I should have came on earlier to claim. I'm the cop. Was trying to stay in the background so I wouldn't get nightkilled.

Now that he's "role-claimed", I think he has no excuse to stay in the background anymore.

[Incognito]

I think the fact that Adel is gunning for Oman is a point in Oman's favor.

Why?

By making this statement, you're now in effect making judgments about Oman's alignment based on Adel's actions towards Oman and you're not basing your opinion about Oman's play in complete isolation separate from Adel's gunning.

The question was - what do you think of Oman? In addition, do you think Adel is scum?

[Incognito]

i think the fact that erg0 was gunning for Xyl is a point in Xyl's favour.

Same applies to you.

[Incognito]

By making this statement, you're now in effect making judgments about Oman's alignment based on Adel's actions towards Oman and you're not basing your opinion about Oman's play in complete isolation separate from Adel's gunning.

Whats wrong with this?

I have not really read Xyl. I should. I will.

Do you really not see what's wrong with it? Xyl's comment is completely based on the assumption that Adel is

definitely

scum and it didn't really answer Patrick's question. Post 841 was more along the lines of an answer to Patrick's question.

[Incognito]

I'm leaning towards Adel being scum - his explanation for the opie wagon sounds like an excuse rather than a reason. If he really thought that the best day 1 play is to lynch randomly, then he wouldn't have vote hopped to Guardian and back.

I don't think you have any real understanding of my playstyle.

Don't make me drag out "lynch all liars".

following lynch all liars usually results in my death.

lol

[Incognito]

This is somewhat off-topic:

Adel, you played with Jitsu previously in Mini 518. Did you notice if he often spent a lot of time kinda hovering around the Little Italy forum in that game?

[Incognito]

No as in you haven't noticed or no as in he didn't do that?

Where am I going with this?

[Incognito]

Adel, could you explain how you think Oman could slip away? I think I know what you meant, and I

think

I know how you think it could possibly happen but I'd like to hear it from you first before saying.

[Incognito]

BLAH.

Interestingly I somewhat agree with your FoS.

[Incognito]

So...you think CO and I are mutually exclusive scum now?

P.S. For the record, I do think that you and CO are mutually exclusive (unlike the opie/Matt_S arguments brought up earlier in the day).

[Incognito]

Good posting by Jitsu.

======================================================

Votecount #35

Oman - 2 (Incognito, Adel)

ChaosOmega - 1 (Erg0)

Not voting - 6 (Matt_S, ChaosOmega, Xylthixlm, Patrick, Jitsu, Oman)

With 9 alive, it's 5 to lynch.
Deadline for D2: Friday April 5, 11:30AM GMT+10
================================================

[Incognito]

So...you think CO and I are mutually exclusive scum now?

P.S. For the record, I do think that you and CO are mutually exclusive (unlike the opie/Matt_S arguments brought up earlier in the day).

Why do you think they are mutually exclusive?

Because in my opinion, Oman being scum isn't dependent on ChaosOmega being lynched and turning up scum. It seems like in Day 1 people were linking opie with Matt_S suggesting that if opie turns up scum then Matt_S would also likely or even definitely be scum. People (except for Patrick who did suggest that he could see Matt_S being scum independent of opie's alignment) couldn't read Matt_S as scummy on his own; the case against Matt_S was completely dependent on opie's alignment.

[Incognito]

Mutually exclusive means, "if one of them is scum, the other one cannot be". It would be equivalent to say "they cannot both be scum". However, that doesn't really sound like what you are saying here. Is that correct?

Oh right. I thought mutually exclusive meant something else. Nevermind what I said in Post 873.

[Incognito]

Non-sane cop is a very weak claim, I can't see an SK taking that as their first option.

Eh? What are you people talking about? I was under the impression that a cop wouldn't know his/her own sanity until after an investigation took place. Role PMs don't indicate your sanity most of the time, do they?

[Incognito]

I know that. ASDFGHJKL;

My point is ChaosOmega claimed yesterday (Day 1). Erg0 seems to be implying that ChaosOmega would have known even when he claimed yesterday whether or not he was sane or insane. I'm of the same opinion as Adel; his non-sane cop claim was more a result of circumstance, i.e. we learned on Day 2 that we had both a Tracker and a Watcher so to think that we also had a Sane Cop would be unbelievable so he fakes a guilty result on Guardian to make his cop claim more believable.

[Incognito]

Second time lucky Incog

LOL! I told you guys Guardian was scum!

I'll give him a chance to read and provide some thoughts before deciding what to do with my vote.

[Incognito]

The only people I would consider lynching today are Oman and Guardian^2. Adel's a possibility also because of this: This thread.

It's really messing with my mind.

[Incognito]

Did you know that I've claimed scum as town before?

And that's the only thing that's preventing me from declaring you as scum. Do you remember that I was in the very

game

with you when you claimed scum as town before? You claimed I was your scum buddy and you were town while I was scum. I found it kinda hilarious.

[Incognito]

I'm not sold on the case against Matt_S. I've read over Matt_S's posts in isolation and maybe I'm being naive here but I would have expected Matt_S to react differently at around the time pickemgenius questioned him pretty harshly about his viewpoints with respect to bandwagoning. I would have expected Matt_S to possibly back down or buddy up to pickemgenius to explain his own views about bandwagoning but Matt_S did neither; he defended his views and his own votes despite the fact that he was being questioned closely by someone we now know is town (pickemgenius). The interplay between Matt_S (alignment unknown) and pickemgenius-town doesn't read the way I would expect it to read if it was pickemgenius-town versus Matt_S-newb scum.

The case against Adel has intrigued me, and I've certainly been thinking about the possibility of her being scum more closely. I don't think she's today's lynch though.

Oman or Guardian^2 is today's lynch.

Adel, I'll fifth the motion for you to explain your reasoning for finding Matt_S to be scum. It shouldn't have to be begged out of you though; stop being an attention whore and just say the damn thing already.

[Incognito]

because guardian is voting for him, silly, I am as well :p

That's the most retarded reason ever.

[Incognito]

Unvote; Vote: Adel

You need a damn vote for that one.

[Incognito]

lol @ incog.

This vote is the beginning of the sound of

your

death march.

[Incognito]

Is that a song?

[Incognito]

I guess we may as well lynch the obvscum then before he toys around with our heads even more.

Unvote; Vote: Guardian

[Incognito]

This is turning into a semantics argument.

Your question was "Who isn't going to be a lynch candidate today?"

Adel said: "Everyone [isn't going to be a lynch candidate] except Guardian and Oman".

There.

[Incognito]

I think Guardian's at L-1 now, yes?

[Incognito]

First,

unvote

, while we discuss.

Likewise, no one has commented substantively about my cases on Adel or Oman. Some have said "looks good" "looks bad" or whatever, but no real thought is going into this.

This is bogus. I had already considered the possibility of Oman being scum many posts ago and outlined my suspicions very thoroughly. I certainly didn't say anything like "looks good" or "looks bad"; I gave pretty clear reasons for why I felt Oman is scum, and I had my vote on him for the majority of Day 2. Look through my posting history to read through the case I outlined against him and you'll notice that quite contrary to what you've said, I gave pretty substantial reason for voting for Oman, as did Patrick.

I believe I'm at -2 now (though everyone else is saying -1, so I am a bit worried), and there really hasn't been much discussion at all of the defense and arguments I've presented, and few have tried to interact with me to get a read on me or allow me to explain what I believe more clearly. I'm very disappointed in that.

No offense, Guardian, but you're replacing a guy who claimed Cop right at the end of Day 1 and lurked during Day 2. He reasoned that his lurking during Day 1 was due to the fact that he was the cop and even after that information got out into the open he STILL lurked. It's kinda hard to trust someone who does that especially since he's active on the site still. You yourself even mentioned from your very opening post "why aren't they lynching the obvobvobv scum". For you to now mention everything you're mentioning seems like a huge appeal to emotion, and I can't help but contemplate the fact that you may be attempting some confusion tactic to help out your new alignment (although I do agree with your Oman suspicions).

Incognito, why is the lynch today me? Why not address my defense and cases, instead of taking the easy route and calling me 'obvscum'? You vote Adel, then switch back. Why?

I addressed your case against Matt_S, and I mentioned my feelings about it. I wasn't lazy like you claim; I

did

look at his posts in isolation and just didn't get the same feeling you did.

And I didn't switch back. If you were paying attention, you'd realize that my vote was on Oman for the whole of Day 2. I voted for CO initially but then began to feel like Oman might be the better lynch. Then CO went lurky... it's kinda hard to accept a replacement's posts under those circumstances.

Anyway, I'm fairly confident that Oman is scum, and I could go for his lynch (as I've mentioned numerous times). We might be able to test out Guardian's cop claim tomorrow if anything, assuming we lynch correctly today or some type of cross-kill thing happens tonight. Therefore I'll go back to my original vote.

Vote: Oman

[Incognito]

I'll respond to Guardian tomorrow. A bit sleepy right now considering it's midnight.

Incognito: How do you propose that we test out Guardian's claim tomorrow?

Good question. Even if Guardian really is the cop and did investigate someone Night 2 and survived to present his results tomorrow, I guess it would still be a "that person's word against Guardian's" scenario and it would still be hard to accept Guardian's word as the truth. So now that I think about it, it would be very difficult to test his claim.

I guess what's really drawn me away from my Guardian vote now is the fact that Oman jumped on Chaos_Omega's wagon so quickly at the start of Day 2. I know we've reasoned the possibility of CO being an SK but I

really

don't trust Oman, I feel like he's definitely scum, and his jump on that bandwagon really made me reconsider my vote, yet again. And then Adel's mentioning that this could have been the work of a vig also got me thinking especially considering the NK choices. I dunno. I need time to think right now and there's still plenty of day left so I feel like there's no need to rush.

[Incognito]

But then BAH, a tracker, watcher, cop, AND a vig? UGH. This game is confusing the hell out of me. Good night.

[Incognito]

Therefore I'll go back to my original vote.

Vote: Oman

Could you explain in a bit more detail why you're not getting the vibe from Matt_S and are from Oman? I'll definitely go back and re-read your and Patrick's posts; as of now I haven't read them particularly carefully, I've only read Matt_S, Oman, Adel with an extremely peeled back eye.

Before I respond to this, I do have a request for Matt_S.

@Matt_S:

You haven't completed any games here on MS so I really have no way of meta-ing you. Can you link to at least one game from another site possibly where you've been town and one game where you've been scum? Thanks, if you can.

[Incognito]

Ugh. It might be awhile before I post in here again. I'm trying to provide some final thoughts in Mini 539 about the remaining suspects in that game. x_x Hopefully tomorrow I'll provide some more input.

[Incognito]

Incognito, what do you think of Xlythixlm?

It's funny that you ask me about him because he's somebody I was planning on covering very soon. Now that you've asked though, I'll provide some analysis of him.

Xylthixlm has read as somewhat of a mystery to me. I think there were a few noteworthy things about his play:

• 1) His early spat with TrustGossip (your predecessor) was really strange. I still don't even understand the meaning of it. I've read through it a number of times, and I still don't understand what they were even going back and forth about. It just seemed completely out of context from everything else that was going on at the time and it seemed like it wasn't receiving any attention from anyone else either. If it wasn't for the fact that you (someone I've been reading as fairly pro-town) had replaced TrustGossip shortly after, I might have chalked it up as some pseudo-argument between two scum partners.
  
  2) After removing his TrustGossip vote and removing his Matt_S vote, he places his vote on opie because nobody saw what he saw about Matt_S, but I don't remember him really going out on a limb to sell his case to anyone either. Then he claims he's voting Guardian in an effort to prevent him from being lynched because he had a "neutral to scummy read" on opie but a pro-town read on Guardian. What bothers me is his removal of his vote on opie and quick switch to ChaosOmega after citing that he agreed with my view about opie's very last post. I never found opie to be scummy to begin with so naturally it would make sense for me to read his last post before death as that of a defeated townie but for someone who had a "neutral to scummy read" on opie and who thought starting a ChaosOmega-lurker wagon was cutting too close to deadline, this shift in votes makes me rather uneasy. It's the same thing that made me believe Guardian was even more obvscum than ever (although I was wrong about him =/).
  
  3) Something else bothers me about Xylthixlm. I'm actually shocked that nobody called me out about this apparent contradiction. Previously I mentioned the following:
  

  The case against Adel has intrigued me, and I've certainly been thinking about the possibility of her being scum more closely. I don't think she's today's lynch though.
  
  Oman or Guardian^2 is today's lynch.

  but about two posts later I placed a vote on Adel over something that was actually rather trivial. I did this for a few reasons:
  
  a) A number of people seemed to criticize Adel for her actions (particularly Xylthixlm during Day 2) but prior to my vote, Adel had yet to receive a serious vote
  for the whole game
  .
  
  b) I wanted to gauge reactions. The reactions I received were interesting: Matt_S followed suit out of nowhere with a vote on Adel and then probably more importantly
  Xylthixlm (a person who was giving Adel flak for most of Day 2) finally decided to place a vote on Adel as well!
  Why did he wait so long? Why did he have to wait until after two people voted to finally place a vote on a person he had such strong feelings against?

In short, I think Oman and Guardian^2 are scum. The scum partner of one of these two is a little less obvious but judging from some of Xylthixlm's reactions, I could see him being a possibility. And tbh, Matt_S's vote on Adel taints him a bit too. I might need to do another reread of him to see if I still receive the same feelings about him.

[Incognito]

Hi. Prodded. I'll try to post something more substantial later.

[Incognito]

Guardian^2, you haven't done a bad job at defending yourself and presenting your suspicions but it's simply very difficult to ignore the play that came from Chaos_Omega. The guy lurked through D1, he claimed a role that seems unlikely to exist in this set-up (including claiming in an extremely shady kind of way), he presented a guilty investigation on Guardian^1 which seems to have been done to make the claim more believable, and then lurked during the beginning of Day 2 while picking up his prod but choosing to never post again. If you really are the cop, then obviously Chaos_Omega owes the town a huge apology for acting and playing the way he did. Barring some

really

strange turn of events, you are today's lynch, period. There's really no way around it.

I've been evaluating your Adel suspicions and should be able to put something together about her soon.

[Incognito]

vote: Incognito

lolz.

[Incognito]

1. making the bed. Scum players pretending to be scum hunting often broadcast their move before they make it. No sudden moves. the idea is to be consistent and to have a prior reason for placing a vote. Predictable voting behavior is the goal.

Ah but you don't even know what my opinion will be of you. What makes you think that I will suddenly lean in favor of believing you are scum? I mentioned that I've been evaluating your play through this game and will provide my thoughts when I get a chance to. I didn't state that I would lean towards the scummy end of the scale after I was done with my analysis. I still strongly believe that Guardian and Oman are scum.

2. Pushing the Guardian and Oman wagons, but not hard enough to stand out. Scum like to fit in with the majority opinion.

Good try, really. I presented my case on Oman awhile back when it was far from the majority opinion and have adamantly supported a lynch of either player. I wanted to lynch Chaos_Omega at the end of Day 1 until the point that he cop claimed, and my vote was on him at the start of Day 2 until I noticed the wagon progressing a bit too quickly for my tastes. I felt like more discussion was necessary before moving into Day 3.

Try again.

[Incognito]

orly? I'd like for you to go back through the thread and cite specific instances where I have not pushed for either one of their lynches. Look over my case on Oman and tell me how that exactly fits in with the masses. My vote was on Chaos_Omega at the start of Day 2 but the wagon obviously progressed too quickly. I felt more was meant to be discussed before progressing into Day 3. You should really stop making shit up.

[Incognito]

He claimed to target me last night because he did. Bastard.

He targeted you how? He was the one who killed Guardian^1?

[Incognito]

See I was under the impression that he just didn't read the thread before entering, killed pickemgenius and not you, claimed to have investigated you since he figured you were still alive, and got kinda snagged when I pointed out to him that you were dead. But now you're suggesting that he was the one who killed you.

[Incognito]

If Guardian is telling the truth, I feel like there's a part of me that actually wants to keep him alive at least for another day especially in light of the best case scenario presented above by Erg0 if we assume a three-player mafia set-up. I mean, if I was in a similar situation where I was NK-ed as an initially town-aligned player and then allowed to replace in as a third party killing role, I'd feel more obligated to help out my original faction than my new faction especially considering the poor amount of effort put into this game by Chaos_Omega. I don't know if Guardian is the same way or if he's even telling the truth, but I'm just throwing that thought out there.

[Incognito]

Actually, now that I think about it, Guardian, if you're truly the Serial Killer, why did you lie from the start? Why didn't you just enter the game and claim Serial Killer instead of continuing to try and deceive us with Chaos_Omega's false cop-claim if you truly wanted to place the town's best intentions ahead of your own?

[Incognito]

Incognito, try harder.

Explain?

[Incognito]

EJ was pretty obvious scum in that game though and Killah Nine basically screwed himself over by mentioning he wasn't "sold on the case against EJ". That was a pretty easy read for Guardian who replaced in and quickly hammered EJ.

[Incognito]

You're only looking at the best case. If we go 1 and 1 on the lynch and kill then we're in LyLo anyway and we may have an SK running around that we can't afford to lynch. At that point Guardian may not need to follow our direction on kills any more.

I think this alone basically forces us to lynch Guardian today. If we could get the best case scenario to happen, then that would be awesome but it's not guaranteed. What

is

guaranteed though is the lynching of scum today, and we really shouldn't pass that up. Obviously we'll have an uphill battle from here but it's certainly not impossible.

Unvote; Vote: Guardian

[Incognito]

Actually, I'm not voting you, and don't want you lynched immediately. I am holding off, because Incognito mentioned some analysis of Adel he wants to post, and if you're at lynch-1, you could conceivably self hammer. So I'm waiting for that. It is true that I do want you lynched today.

Actually this is true. I'll

Unvote

for now before someone gets tempted to hammer before I get to present my Adel analysis.

@Guardian:

I've given it more thought and I came to the realization that if you're the SK, it's actually in your best interest to not hit scum tonight and to instead hit town. I think that you

know

this but are choosing to try and present the best case scenario anyway. My thought is scum will not likely target you tonight since there is the possibility of you being un-nightkillable. So if we assume a three scum set-up and do happen to lynch scum today and you hit town tonight, we'll be left with the scenario that Erg0 had written:

If he hits town we're at 3/1/2, which is probable LyLo.

which pretty much guarantees your survival. You've already mentioned that you're assuming the role of SK and gunning for your own survival to win for your own faction so I'm sorry but I can't buy your "If you let me live, I promise to hit scum tonight" claim.

And I can think of legitimate reasons for mafia to claim SK at this juncture as well.

Adel analysis will likely come tonight when I'm back home.

[Incognito]

Legitimate point. Counter: If I don't do exactly what town tells me to do tonight, promise to lynch me. Promise to lynch me even if it means a town loss. This is something you guys should do and need to do, and I'm presenting it, because only if you do it should you keep me alive.

No, I can't just do that, Guardian. My obligation is to the town while your obligation is to yourself and yourself alone. I refuse to just allow the town to lose because of the highly likely possibility where you refused to listen to the choice of the town. Further, you're acting like this "town" is one single person. Obviously this town is made up of mafia members who will also be vouching for certain people as well. I'd rather have you lynched and then have to deal with the mafia square on even if it means constant LyLo situations.

Anyway, I'd like to say a few words about Adel. The stuff about her gambit and lying to town has been covered already. I tend to regard all of that as a null-tell with respect to her alignment because as we all know, Adel has a tendency to perform gambits and typically lies to the town no matter her alignment. There are a few things though aside from the gambits and lies that I dislike about Adel's play in this game

First, I think it's not a coincidence that her main targets within this game also happen to be the players that are relatively inexperienced. Her main target in D1 was opie, a player whose join date is relatively recent and who seemed a bit preoccupied with real life stuff to properly defend himself (he ended up getting lynched and turning up town). Her main target in D2 has been Matt_S, again another player who is obviously new to the game of Mafia but whose alignment is unknown. There was a quote that I found during a reread of Adel during D1 that looks particularly damning considering the evidence we now have about opie's alignment:

At this point can anyone see Mat_S being scum independant of opie?


hmmm....

The above quote came shortly after this other quote from Adel:

I like how Matt_S put a fos on his scumbuddy but still hasn't decided to buss him.

It seems almost like Adel

knew

opie would turn up town but she realized the obvious dilemma with linking Matt_S with opie: once opie came up town the opie/Matt_S link would become less apparent so by asking for evidence to support for Matt_S being scum independent of opie, she could have a chance at setting up another lynch on D2.

Adel even went as far to mention the following theory during D1:

theory two

If

opie is scum

then

Matt_S is scum
and

if

Matt_S is scum

then

Incognito is scum

but then immediately switched the theory around during D2 to again, favor her position of pushing for a Matt_S lynch:

Like I said earlier, if opie isn't scum then matt_s must be.

vote:matt_S

No, Adel. You

didn't

say if opie isn't scum then Matt_S must be; you said quite the opposite.

Adel has also been doing something that I simply can't find in any previous game she's played as scum before. She seems to be attempting to confirm herself as town by performing extremely scummy actions but then meta-gaming herself doing something similar as town in one of her previous games to really attempt to drill in the position that she is also town here. Couple this with her two instances of WIFOM within the game:

I win games as town. Besides, i will probably draw a nk soon enough that you won't have to worry about determining my alignment, the mod will do it for you.

3. I want to draw the NK (suck that scum, ha ha!)

and it becomes absolutely disgusting.

My theories: If Guardian is the SK, then Adel, Oman, and Xylthixlm are likely scum (consider that little "scuffle" between Xylthixlm and Adel to be a piss poor attempt at distancing).

If Guardian is mafia, then Adel and Xylthixlm are likely to be mutually exclusive scum and Oman is the third scum buddy.

So, either I'm some lying vig who fake claimed cop, or I'm SK.

Or you're mafia attempting to draw out a counterclaim from the real vig in an attempt to have him/her night-killed.

In any case, back to where I was.

Vote: Guardian

[Incognito]

Idiocy was yesterday's opie lynch.

[Incognito]

How about your push on Guardian^1 all day yesterday Incog? That was brilliant, too, eh?

"LYNCH GUARDIAN OBVVV SCUMZ"

If I didn't know better I'd think you were a vig. I was like 90% sure you were a dumb vig who killed me until I replaced in.

All you had to do was respond to my case and perhaps I would have dropped the accusation sooner. Strawmanning the case only made matters worse and your flip-flopping from opie to Jitsu back to opie and then to Chaos_Omega just made you look even worse.

Anyway, this is more post-game discussion than now discussion.

[Incognito]

In my eyes since ChaosOmega/Guardian^2 came up mafia, I'm inclined to believe that Patrick and Erg0 are town. They led the charge against ChaosOmega near the end of Day 1 when two competing wagons on townies existed (Guardian's wagon and opie's wagon). Also the fact that both Erg0 and Patrick, like me, both contemplated the possibility of Guardian being mafia attempting to draw a counterclaim from a possible vig is more evidence to me that they are probably town. The same D1 reasoning probably extends to Matt_S also since he essentially cross-posted with Erg0 while voting against ChaosOmega. My top two suspicions are still firmly planted on Oman and Xylthixlm so I'll go with this:

Vote: Oman

[Incognito]

Even after like 20 rereads of Xylthixlm's opening post here, I still can't understand what he's saying.

[Incognito]

My top two suspicions are still firmly planted on Oman and Xylthixlm so I'll go with this:

Nice...you know that I was on the guardian wagon, which is what you said Erg0 was town for?

The situations are quite different, Oman. Let me break it down:

During Day 1 there were two separate wagons at one point on two townies: opie and Guardian1. Now while Erg0 did mention that he didn't think the case on opie was very solid, he did mention that he actually liked the case on Guardian1. Despite that, he still decided to place the second vote on ChaosOmega when, if Erg0 was scum, he would have had

no incentive

to bus his buddy at that time. He didn't just place his vote and quickly remove it either - his vote would have been good through ChaosOmega's lynch had he not claimed cop. That's what makes me believe that ChaosOmega/Guardian2 and Erg0 are not scum with one another. This reasoning also applies to Patrick who placed the first vote on ChaosOmega during D1 and Matt_S who cross-posted with Erg0 to place the third vote on ChaosOmega.

Compare that with Day 2 where you, Oman, placed the fourth vote on ChaosOmega, and while we discussed the possibility of Guardian2 being a serial killer, you laid low only to appear once in awhile to either confirm your vote on Guardian2 or change your vote to Xylthixlm, and then confirm your vote on Guardian2. You had plenty of incentive at that point to bus ChaosOmega/Guardian2 because he was so obvscum. That's why the same Erg0 has to be a townie reasoning doesn't apply to you, Oman.

So why aren't you voting Oman?

Because for my theory Omanscum follows from Xylthixlmscum, not the other way.

Matt_S, could you explain this? Why does Omanscum only follow Xylthixlmscum?

Day 1:

opie

- 5 (Oman,

ChaosOmega

,

pickemgenius

,

Adel

,

Guardian^1

)
Day 2:

Guardian^2

- 5 (Erg0, Oman, Incognito,

Adel

, Patrick)

Does anyone else find it odd that almost everyone on the D1 lynch is now dead?

Xylthixlm, this pretty much confirms my read on you. Now you're trying to interpret the night-time WIFOM to somehow suggest that Oman could be innocent?

If Oman is scum, the scum would be dumb to kill the townies he could hide behind. Although I can sort of see why he'd want to kill Adel.

If Oman isn't scum, it seems most likely that a vig killed Adel and the scum kill was blocked.

No, I still believe that the "shooting" deaths were performed by the mafia and now that no second kill happened during Night 2, either a kill was blocked or perhaps we have a single-kill nighttime vigilante who used his single-kill during Night 1. Or maybe something completely different.

[Incognito]

They found handcuffs in her pocket, but since this was Adel they decided that they probably weren't there for law enforcement.

This made me lol.

[Incognito]

Nothing Guardian^2 said is useful, because I can guarantee you that he was fully expecting to be lynched yesterday and played accordingly. He said himself that he replaced in expecting to do some distancing and then take the lynch, and I think that demonstrates his frame of mind from that point forward. As such, I'll accept no arguments that are based on anything that he did after that point.

That's true but one of the three people he listed as scum was NK-ed last night as town (Adel). His top choice was Matt_S and his third choice was Oman. Could the order of his scum choices been suggestive of anything?

[Incognito]

The debate between me and Xyl on this subject today probably doesn't seem that interesting to outsiders, but the reason I've been pushing it is I really feel like he used craplogic to defend Guardian yesterday. As a short version, his, "I doubt Guardian would be ballsy enough to claim SK as mafia" just didn't hold up at all, and I have trouble believing he couldn't see that.

Quite the contrary. I think the debate is kinda interesting. =P

[Incognito]

I didn't think I had to respond to Xylthixlm's 1291 since he refuted both of his own theories but thanks, Jitsu, for doing it for me.

[Incognito]

Oman, did you ever get a chance to do this:

I have not really read Xyl. I should. I will.

What are your conclusions?

[Incognito]

Who do you think is Matt_S's buddy?

[Incognito]

^^^ that was my next question.

[Incognito]

You missed a question or two... or three... or four.

[Incognito]

I'm starting to think that the way he plays townie would not be the way I or MS.net plays townie.

Matt_S' buddy. He and Erg0 looked bad yesterday.

Matt_S just makes scummy votes, scummy words. Looks scummy.

In order to believe this, you would also have to believe that both Erg0 and Matt_S decided to bus their own scum buddy (ChaosOmega-scum) during Day 1 at the exact same time. Do you find this to be likely?

[Incognito]

It has bothered me also. I haven't bothered to comment on it because it really hasn't wavered my opinion about him

or

Oman.

Basically here's what he said his initial theory was on D1:

Adel is SK.
Guardian2 is mafia.

Guardian2 then claims to be SK who targeted Guardian1 and this claim flattened his initial theory.

This statement:

I was pretty well convinced that Adel was an SK, and Guardian^2 mafia. Guardian's SK claim blows that theory out of the water. If Guardian is mafia, claiming SK is an extremely gutsy move; his claim would be flattened if someone else claimed the Guardian^1 kill. I'm inclined to think he's telling the truth.

could be read in two different ways, I believe.

1) If Guardian1 was the mafia kill and if Xylthixlm is mafia, then Xylthixlm would have known that nobody else would have claimed the killing of Guardian1 because that kill was performed by the mafia. Therefore it seems like Xylthixlm may have been using this logic as a last ditch attempt to save a scum buddy.

2) If Guardian1 was an SK/vig kill and Xylthixlm is mafia, then Xylthixlm would have known that the mafia targeted pickemgenius, and he also would have known that his scum buddy Guardian was making an extremely risky move by claiming to kill the person that

wasn't

targeted by the mafia.

The problem with reasoning number 2 though is Adel's cause of death matches Guardian1's cause of death. So if you believe reasoning number 2, then you'd have to believe that the mafia didn't kill last night and that Adel's death was caused by another force.

His additional explanations don't really do much to waver my opinion away from him being scum.

[Incognito]

EBWOP: That should read "his initial theory was on

D2

; not D1.

[Incognito]

And because a triple post is cool, I have an issue that I've been pondering.

We only had one kill last night while on night 1 we had two kills. We've contemplated the possibility of there being an SK, a vig, a one-shot vig, and I think Adel even suggested a Quack Doctor. If one of the kills during Night 1 was performed by a one-shot vig, does anyone think that the one-shot vig should role claim now? My reasoning is the one-shot vig would essentially be a vanilla townie now since he's used up his one shot and it might help us to figure out the set-up and our current situation further if he claimed.

[Incognito]

I agree with Patrick about the opening flavor suggesting only a Mafia versus Town kind of set-up.

I disagree with the idea of having a complete mass claim. I think only if we have a one-shot vig, he should claim. It's possible that we have some sort of protective role on the side of the town that could have been responsible for preventing a death last night. Or we could have a regular vig who targeted an unnightkillable Godfather last night or who was blocked by a Mafia-aligned roleblocker. I don't think possibly outing that protective role or that vig by way of a mass claim is the way to go especially since I feel pretty good about my suspicions.

[Incognito]

I agree with Patrick about the opening flavor suggesting only a Mafia versus Town kind of set-up.

Read my previous post and tell me what you think.

Your previous post makes sense; the flavor text could be intentionally ambiguous. The problem though is vollkan mentions something about a "powerful crime organisation" that has been going about pillaging other villages and has finally reached the town of Vollville. I, too, don't know how often the flavor matches the actual game set-up since I don't have much experience with this site either but I've had Patrick review a game set-up for me for my future mini normal and according to him, the flavor should be written carefully to not deceive the players in the game.

Something just occurred to me when I reread your post. If I'm right, then well done.

There are several ways to explain the lack of a second kill last night, but we

do

have a second killer. So you think it is a Vig or a Quack, then?

I think if we have a vig or a quack, then we don't have an SK. If we have an SK, then I think we have a protective role. If the flavor text is indicative of anything, then I think the pro-town power roles are more likely than the third-party killing role.

[Incognito]

Hmm didn't know it was on the first page, thats a cool addition. I thought I was going to have to wade.

The answer then, is yes, I do believe it!

Btw, Oman, whether or not it is on the first page shouldn't make that much of a difference. If you would recall, Erg0's and Matt_S's votes were actually a hot topic at one point that you and maybe one or two others actually discussed in some detail as possibly being scum tells. Erg0 voted for ChaosOmega, Matt_S seemed to cross-post with Erg0, and then he said something like "Lol. Hello there. Didn't see ya" while quoting Erg0's vote. I can understand things being able to slip from someone's mind but not something like that which you yourself used as pretty substantial evidence at one point to implicate the possibility of a Matt_S/Erg0 scum pairing.

[Incognito]

You know what? I've thought of another possibility that I think is even more likely than any other possibility mentioned yet.

If we take the flavor text into account, then I think right now our status might be 5-0-2. We've talked about the possibility of an SK, a vig, a quack... we're either thinking that the role is either a town-aligned killing role or a third-party killing role. But what if it's neither? What if instead we have a mafia-aligned vig/assassin role that has some sort of kill restriction (able to kill once every other night or something)? I think that actually makes more sense than anything else mentioned. It would fit in with the flavor text, it would explain the second death on D1, and it would explain why no second death happened on D2. I don't know if this role is typical here on mafiascum but in my previous site, we used to have an Assassin role that had this kill restriction that I've mentioned.

Another thing that's struck me as interesting is all of our choices for who we think is mafia.

Patrick thinks Oman/Xylthixlm.
Erg0 thinks Oman/Xylthixlm.
Matt_S thinks Oman/Xylthixlm.
Jitsu thinks Oman/Xylthixlm.
I think Oman/Xythixlm.
Xylthixlm thinks Oman/Patrick or Incognito.
Oman thinks Erg0/Matt_S.

All of us who think each other are town all have narrowed down our suspicions to the same two people and the people we think are scum think completely differently. Xylthixlm breaks the pattern though; if he's scum with Oman, then he's attempting to bus his buddy at this point. Could this be indicative that maybe Oman is just a Goon while Xylthixlm might be the Assassin that I mentioned above?

Any thoughts about anything I mentioned would be appreciated. =)

[Incognito]

I realize that they're rare but it seems like everyone's completely clueless about who the other killer is and why a second body didn't go down last night. I would think that if a member of the town had this information (especially if that member of the town was a one-shot vig) he would come forward with this information to help shed some light on the situation. Since nobody has come forward though, it leads me to believe that the mafia have this information and that an extra mafia kill may have been performed on Night 1. Perhaps it's even the reason why we had both a tracker and a watcher in our set-up. I would think that games would normally have only one investigative role instead of a pair.

[Incognito]

That's all I needed to hear.

Unvote; Vote: Xylthixlm

L-1.

Btw, I think Adel was targeted as the Mafia kill because of this post: Post 788. I thought she might have been the vig because of that post too.

Patrick, if you're targeted by the mafia tonight, does your kill still go through?

[Incognito]

I think they're both lying scum for obvious reasons. We lynch Xylthixlm today and Patrick pwns the crap out of Oman tonight.

======================================================

Page 56 Votecount

Xylthixlm - 2 (Matt_S, Incognito)

Matt_S- 1 (Oman)

Not voting - 4 (Erg0, Xylthixlm, Jitsu, Patrick)

With 7 alive, it's 4 to lynch.
Deadline for D3: Tuesday April 22, 11:11AM GMT+10
================================================

[Incognito]

I'm a tracker, got a target from Xyl. Now I took that to mean there was a doc here (as I said), scum would know there was a doc.

P.S. This makes no sense even aside from the fact that we already had a tracker in this game. If you were a tracker, why would you target Xylthixlm of all people when I honestly can't remember you ever voicing any suspicion about him? Wouldn't you choose to target

Erg0

or even

Matt_S

?

[Incognito]

I said the second quote.

[Incognito]

Wow! This game finished!

I have to say, this was one of

the

most enjoyable games I've ever been in. I love the fact that practically everyone stayed in it until the end (only two replacements used and both were pretty early). It was also awesome how this game was pretty much entirely based on scum hunting. With both of our town investigative roles killed off during N1, the town consisted of a bunch of highly analytical vanilla townies with our extra firepower coming from our town vig. It was amazing how during D3, we were all on pretty much the same wavelength with our suspicions (though we were completely wrong about Oman =P).

I must say that I'm kinda glad I was NK-ed when I was. If I was placed in Patrick's shoes trying to decide between Jitsu and Matt_S, I would have been pretty torn. I was sold on Erg0 being town pretty much the whole game but Jitsu and Matt_S gave me mixed feelings. So very well done job by the end-game crew of Patrick, Erg0, and Jitsu of analyzing the entire thread and making a good logical decision. I also have to admit that even though Adel's play was somewhat loopy, she really was a good dose of comical relief. When she was NK-ed as town, I laughed so hard at some of the stuff she said during D2 about the opie wagon. Question for the scum: Why was Adel chosen as the NK when she was? Did you guys think she was the vig? Also, why was I chosen as the NK instead of Patrick? Did you think I was a protective role?

In response to vollkan:

I have a few questions, for anybody who wouldn't mind answering:
1) Was the setup balanced? Or, rather, would it have been balanced if the tracker and watcher didn't die before doing anything ?

I thought the setup was fairly balanced. Maybe the addition of a one-shot roleblocker or something along those lines may have made it a bit more balanced. I think the game

seemed

more town-balanced after D2 but that was more because of the circumstances that happened in the game (i.e. CO claiming Cop and our Tracker and Watcher dying when they did). The Cop claim would have been far more believable even if just

one

of those roles died during N1 but since both did, that really pushed the game in our favor.

2) I basically came up with my nightkill MOs on a whim. As in, there was nothing systematic about them; it was just me trying to have fun with the deaths. Was that appropriate?

I thought that was perfectly fine. As you could see, we were all pretty much confused and trying to piece things together during mid-game. I think Patrick and the scum had a greater advantage at figuring things out though because they knew the

real

cause of deaths. Us vanillas were pretty clueless.

3) Vote-counts. Did my system of having the top-of-page counts and the first page collection work well?

Vote-counts were awesome. It was nice to have that handy reference right at the top of each page.

4) Anything else?

I think you did an excellent job modding. It was pretty clear to me that you were on top of things and making sure things were updated in a timely manner. I just played in another mini which finished about two or three weeks ago that was terribly modded. So seeing the difference between that game and this one was a breath of fresh air.

Anyway, definitely had a good time playing this one, and I'd love to play with any of you again. This was definitely a fun group.

[Incognito]

@Incognito: I admire your tenacity in investigating suspects and not being afraid to stand so firmly behind your cases. What you did, you did with gusto. I aspire to integrate some elements of your playstyle and Vollkan's into my own.

Thanks for these comments.

I did get really frustrated several times when my honest attempts to be a good townie were misinterpreted, and in several cases, my inexperience almost hurt the town. But being that this was only my second game ever, I guess I shouldn't be too hard on myself. I don't think I did quite as well here as in Underground Mafia, but this game was more difficult for me in a number of ways. I'm just glad that I was able to play well enough to avoid being lynched.

I don't think you played poorly here at all, Jitsu. I could see how a lot of the early stuff with opie might have been confusing, and I think the only thing that made me somewhat nervous about you was that shift in position with respect to opie. Aside from that, I think your play here was very solid and logical. I think there were moments where I was thinking "hmmm, Jitsu's seeming a little

too

townie", and there were moments where I began thinking that your play may have been a ruse but that was probably just paranoia creeping in.