Open 674: Duck Duck Goose [Game Over]

[BlackVoid]

Like he townreads Hapa....and lock scums me, but I've been constantly saying how I doubt Hapa's lynch a bit. If one scum-reads me, then they should also think "holy shit, maybe Aubrey is busing his partner while trying to disband it at the same time." And he's basically town reading him similar to all the points I raised, commented, and asked.

lol I. Can't. Even. What's worse he could actually pull this off maybe.

Why should I be thinking specific things that you want me to be thinking? That's not what I got from your posts. I could see you and Hap distancing mildly while not pushing suspicion of each other. But I independently townread Hap after looking over his posts. If Hap flips scum, I still think you are his most likely partner but I doubt he will.

[cassielle]

Posts like this are the reason I'm very hesitant to lynch anyone that's a voice of reason among the town. With you and KidAmn both being town posting like you have been, and outoforder barely even caught up, I'm at least hoping that once Hap has time to play, he picks up his game tomorrow.

Ten minutes of looking over my two scumgames and a sample of my towngames will tell you that this is blatantly my towngame. I don't think I've ever driven games as scum.

i do not put any stock in meta, esp not self-meta, with only VERY rare exceptions (like creature breaking his meta is extremely unlikely for example -- he has no real control of it and its very subtle statistical stuff anyhow)

if /you/ put stock in meta, feel free to check, my position on meta is clear in every game ive been in on site

this post is meaningless to me, equivalent to "but im town" <--- NAI, anyone can and would say that

[Aubrey]

i still think he could be town Cass. Severely misguided, but possibly town. You are probably my strongest townread. Keep your eyes open. I almost welcome death as much as yourself,

[BlackVoid]

To whichever four of Fitz, Creature, Rels, Kop, Hawk, doomfeathers are actually town (which I'll figure out when I wake up tomorrow): think about why Hap is even a lynch candidate in the first place:

Creature's vote I don't understand because Creature never gives reasons. If you are town here, trust me, Aubrey is scum. You expected me to solve the game when I replaced in. Well, I've solved about half of it. Aubrey is for-sure scum no question about it and KidAmn, Cass, Hap, and outoforder are town. You should get off of town and vote someone actually scummy.

Hawk intends to vote Hap because of my case. Re-reading I don't feel the same way at all.

Kop still is voting Rels. I have no idea what Doomfeathers is thinking. I'll know what Fitz and Rels thinking tomorrow.

Here's how I know Hap will flip town: his complete frustration at being voted for non-reasons mirrors how I'm feeling as far as my strong townreads are concerned. I don't understand a thing KidAmn posts. Cass has just been screaming "Hap is scum, BV is scum" and KidAmn has been buying that. Outoforder suspects me because I didn't share his suspicion of Fitz. It's just dealing with this made me realize how Hap must have felt in this town.

Outoforder and Rels, if you are not sure about Hap, you should be working with me to secure a lynch we can all live with so we have more time to sort Hap tomorrow. I'm town. Look at my wiki at ANY of my games. It's so obvious I'm town it's not funny. And work with me here.

Aubrey's posting in the last page is so scummy anyone not seeing it needs their scumdar examined.

[cassielle]

Aubrey's posting in the last page is so scummy anyone not seeing it needs their scumdar examined.

and yet hes posting near identically to how i have ever since you began your misbegotten mislynch crap push
remind me why you townread me again?

oh RIGHT: its basically pre-flip associative (my rels case isnt, though it can appear that way) + "oops missed that post that i actually made a big post about"
you assume aubrey is scum on the basis of how our slots interact (so -- pre-flip associative 1, see 1091) and then that im town on the basis of ... how our slots interact. (pre-flip associative 2, see 1101)

whos townreading this scumslot, show of hands here, come on now

his case on aubrey is a literal tautology -- circular reasoning all day long here

[BlackVoid]

Aubrey's entire play has revolved around setting people up. He critiques Hap's KidAmn case and accuses Hap of exploiting a newbie. Then says that if KidAmn and Fitz both are town, he'd be suspicious of Hap.

He claims that if Rels is scum and Hap is town, he'd be suspicious of me.

He claims that only one of Hap and Fitz are scum which subtly serves to separate them so that one of them flipping town isn't a detriment to continue lynching the other.

He's not actively trying to sort players or read them. He's hanging back setting people up.

The things that are scumreading me for and the things you are townreading him for are the very things you should reverse when you are scumhunting. I've been aggressively pushing players for answers. You keep screaming misrep because you disagree with my arguments. Did you notice how Aubrey pretty much agreed with me that your post on Hap/Rels was weird? But he didn't call you scum. He was rather careful not to do that and piss you off. He skirted around the edges, agreeing with me, stroking your ego a little (mighty Cass), tried to buddy me but never really attacked you or did anything to upset what was going on. That's what scumplay looks like.

[cassielle]

Aubrey's entire play has revolved around setting people up. He critiques Hap's KidAmn case and accuses Hap of exploiting a newbie. Then says that if KidAmn and Fitz both are town, he'd be suspicious of Hap.

He claims that if Rels is scum and Hap is town, he'd be suspicious of me.

He claims that only one of Hap and Fitz are scum which subtly serves to separate them so that one of them flipping town isn't a detriment to continue lynching the other.

He's not actively trying to sort players or read them. He's hanging back setting people up.

The things that are scumreading me for and the things you are townreading him for are the very things you should reverse when you are scumhunting. I've been aggressively pushing players for answers. You keep screaming misrep because you disagree with my arguments. Did you notice how Aubrey pretty much agreed with me that your post on Hap/Rels was weird? But he didn't call you scum. He was rather careful not to do that and piss you off. He skirted around the edges, agreeing with me, stroking your ego a little (mighty Cass), tried to buddy me but never really attacked you or did anything to upset what was going on. That's what scumplay looks like.

im townreading him because in general when he talks it makes sense to me. im scumreading you because youre doing the opposite of good d1 play, trying to push town onto a last-minute compromise wagon (which is nigh guaranteed to be a ML) instead of stickingwith the program? i mean like even if hapas a ML theres so much TALK around it that not getting the flip means most of D1 is effectively garbage

plus theres the misrep and incoherence. lets talk about that incoherence a sec:
im suspicious of buddying, but what aubrey said about me (what you refer to as stroking my ego) didnt ping me that way. it pinged me as sarcasm, a light joke at my expense. btw, why arent you scumreading kidamn for doing the exact same thing when i pushed the rels wagon? that seems hypocritical or incoherent

and the misrep -- im not sure if youre so confbiased youre incapable of seeing it or if youre doing it on purpose but you were doing crazy mental gymnastics to contort pretty clear-cut statements of mine into byzantine fucking warrens of conspiracy
and ftr whatever you say is the case there is p much meaningless because if youre doing it on purpose youve got as much reason to lie as you do to talk straight about it, it's like claiming a non 3rd party alignment (except i guess in a multiball), its meaningless

now i admit, yeah, aubrey is a bit cautious in his reads. but ive seen town do that quite a bit on d1 too, hedging a bit
on d1 its not a scumtell, essentially. its NAI. if it continues into d2+, then yeah, scum -- but that means you dont push them d1 about it? because then they will realize they are in the spotlight and start to cover their tracks? and youll have a harder time convincing town of it later, when its actually alignment indicative, because you were pushing on it when it didnt matter and now its all hidden so you look confbiased to the point of uselessness if you point it out later?

if youre town youre setting yourself up to be gaslit by scum basically

[BlackVoid]

I could see the "mighty Cass" comment as sarcasm. But the context of it was still that you are such a strong town player that no scum would go after you (which is what he was calling me town for). There was a serious ego-stroke behind it even though that particular phrase might have been sarcasm if you follow what I mean.

Whatever you said about Hap in the post you voted Rels was something I attacked you on. You said I misrepped you. Aubrey agreed with what I was saying in essence what you thought was a misrep. But unlike me, he didn't attack you over it. He held back because he didn't want to get his hands dirty.

I didn't like KidAmn buddying you either but it was done differently (he pretty much said he'll sheep you. There was no strategic holding back and tiptoeing around the way Aubrey is doing.) I also had other good strong reasons to townread KidAmn. Stuff we agree on like his ATE.

I don't agree with the distinction you are drawing between cautiousness being a scumtell only from D2 onwards. I'm going to push for scum lynches once I feel confident about them. I'm not going to wait an arbitrary number of days before I do that, nor do I care that it "looks like conf-bias."

I don't think Hap's townflip will solve anything which is why I don't want to lynch him. Aubrey's scumflip will get us much closer to solving the game.

[BlackVoid]

What I mean is, if I see scummy behavior from Aubrey, I'm not going to hold back until D2 and mislynch a townie on D1 just so that I don't appear conf-biased on him when I eventually push him. That's scrub play.

[Creature]

Did hapa do something to change your mind?

[Creature]

And I don't answer questions I don't feel like answering.

[havingfitz]

@Fitz, if you are here, can we discuss Aubrey?

Here...catching up. If this request still applies...go for it.

[BlackVoid]

Did hapa do something to change your mind?

Well, he didn't post. If you mean what posts of his changed my mind, basically where he lashed out at the town for suspecting him and got really frustrated at the lack of a case. At first glance, I dismissed it as scum just annoyed at being voted for the "wrong reasons" but realized as I engaged with townies like Cass and KidAmn that his frustration was mostly legitimate.

Look at Aubrey's posts last night. They are all intended to discredit and try to make it look like he and Cass have to suffer. He's indulging Cass because Cass is complaining about me. That's scum manipulation at its finest.

[BlackVoid]

@Fitz, if you are here, can we discuss Aubrey?

Here...catching up. If this request still applies...go for it.

Well, I was hoping for your thoughts. I've been posting about Aubrey all night. Basically I think he's scum. Let's lynch him.

[Creature]

Well, we have 17 hours left and I'm not really sure on scum.

[Creature]

Not sure how much I'll oppose Aubrey.

[BlackVoid]

Regarding Hap, there's also little stuff like "you wish it were that easy, didn't you" to outoforder backing off of him that really read genuine. But most importantly, his cases are a lot better than I initially thought they were - the KidAmn case I still think is wrong but I like where he elaborates on how KidAmn was saying Creature's playstyle was non-alignment indicative but voting him anyways. I still think his Fitz suspicion was based on the walls is not very good but outoforder did the same thing this morning which tells me it's more of a playstyle thing among that social group rather than a scum-Hap making a terrible argument because he can't come up with better ones. His arguments on Cass I initially thought were bussing but after interacting with Cass, I felt like his emotions reflected how I felt at several points and if he was town and had Cass bring those points up against him, he'd react the way he did "you can't possibly think this!"

[BlackVoid]

Aubrey's posting even before has been scummy but it's when he started egging Cass on that I knew for sure that he was scum. Cass was mad at me for -I don't know- because I suspected and apparently misrepped her. It's when he started making these little "I know right, BV is terrible" style of posting that I figured he was scum. It reminded me so much of how when I was tunelling Rask in Mini 18whatever and Rask was lashing out at me. Then MariaR jumped in and started doing the same thing which read as really disingenuous.

If you make Aubrey a viable wagon, we'll gain a ton of info after his scumflip as to who was willing to vote him and who wasn't.

[Aubrey]

i expect a wall of an apology after all of the walls I had to read from you when I flip green.

Anything I say is just going to get twisted to meet your scum ideals.

[BlackVoid]

Look at the entirety of Aubrey's contribution to the game: it's always taking background stances to what's going on. He makes good points at times but that's something that comes from good scum. He never gets involved or gets his hands dirty. When Hap made this giant push on KidAmn, he accused Hap of "exploiting a newbie" in a very generic way and suggested subtly that if KidAmn and Fitz were both town, Hap would be #1 on his list of suspects. He never said "that case in BS, Hap is scum and push Hap." It took a very long time and lots of persuasion to finally vote Hap.

When I questioned Cass and Hawk about their "Hap is scum but vote Rels" stances, Aubrey just stayed in the background throughout this and later registered his agreement with me. He never took any sort of stance on what this said about Cass's or Hawk's alignments. That's not town genuinely hunting for scum. That's scum having reads that he thinks are plausible and believable. He never cares about trying to sort alignments, just posts what he thinks sounds reasonable.

I've gone over his lack of interest in the lynch today which is exclusive to this game for reasons unknown.

[BlackVoid]

i expect a wall of an apology after all of the walls I had to read from you when I flip green.

Anything I say is just going to get twisted to meet your scum ideals.

He was calling me town just a few posts ago and now suddenly I'm scum. He can't decide between calling me bad and calling me scum

[havingfitz]

Your major concern with Hap was how he jumped on your wagon after Aubrey, right? Well, I have a hard time seeing him post the way he did towards the end of the day and I'm super-confident Aubrey is scum so I think you're looking at scum who voted you with weak reasoning and town wagoning right after as opposed to the other way around. If you have misgivings about Hap, you're right. The way Aubrey was taking on an almost consulting role where he just pops in and offers comments while never taking stances or pushing anyone has transparent scum motivation. We don't need everyone to vote Hap anyways. Join me here and we'll see how the VC turns out in the end.

Correct...that was my major concern and I think it was compounded by the little meta bias I had built up in my head from two players that know him well (I assume) finding him suspect. Which with that suspicion/bias removed after further consideration is less of an indictment on hapa. I didn't like Aubrey's case/push on me early game, so hapa hopping on...and then seeming to retract the bit pertaining to my early game questions (which iirc was the main point of Aubrey's suspicions to begin with) and throwing in some bs about the irony of me giving OoO shit about wallposting in a wallpost. lol.....

I do have misgivings about hapa since my early suspicions were raised but I'd rather see him lynched that a no lynch. I'll admit some of his defensiveness felt town; and I think ,while some might not agree with what he's saying he at least says it very well and his content as the game progresses would make him more transparent then one liner bursts (Creature) or no/low posting at all (Kop). Though the same advantage to lots of content could be said of Aubrey and cass too I think (and you).

We essentially have this entire day (EST at least) to vote and I'm not sure a move to someone else is doable. And the other alternatives are all players I'm not interested in lynching today (Rels.............KidAdm/Kop).

I have not really considered Aubrey as a wagon for two reasons...I did not think his wagon would get any support as he is generally being townread (iirc) and for a bit there I thought his posting had improved. Without thinking Aubrey was a legitimate D1 lynch option here is what my impression of him has been during this game:

Early on...suspected due to weak/lingering pinging sensation suspicions towards me. We went back and forth and back again until I got tired of the ~"no it's not" "yes it is". Then I don't know if it was because of some of my v/LAs or if he went awol a bit but he seemed to fall off my radar a bit. Yesterday I did not like his unwillingness to give his reads (which he ended up providing anyway)....but he did at least provide them. I like your points about the "consulting role" but he has at least been voting people. Probably the person I would like to see voted most would be Creature but for some reason beyond me...he is being generally townread too I think.

I'd vote any of my suspects (Creature, hapa, OoO) to include Aubrey over a D1 NL if they get the traction required. I left out cass because I actually would not want to see her lynched today despite niggling suspicions towards her.

[havingfitz]

i expect a wall of an apology after all of the walls I had to read from you when I flip green.

Anything I say is just going to get twisted to meet your scum ideals.

He was calling me town just a few posts ago and now suddenly I'm scum. He can't decide between calling me bad and calling me scum

I think he means your ideas on who is scum...not that you are scum.

[Aubrey]

i expect a wall of an apology after all of the walls I had to read from you when I flip green.

Anything I say is just going to get twisted to meet your scum ideals.

He was calling me town just a few posts ago and now suddenly I'm scum. He can't decide between calling me bad and calling me scum

The fuck? I never said you were scum here. I'm saying you see me in a light and nothing I do is going to change that cause you will warp anything I say or do to fit your expectation of my alignment.

[BlackVoid]

@Fitz - as far as Aubrey's posting goes, he did eventually post a readslist but nothing in that list has taken into consideration his earlier concerns with Cass and Hawk that he agreed with when I raised them. Look at his posting before he posted the list (saying that people voting Rels for associatives was a concern) but when he does post a readslist, he says nothing about these concerns which shows me it's all just for show and not something he's been genuinely considering or gamesolving.

Vote Aubrey with me and we'll see who joins. I feel more confident about this lynch than I've felt about anyone all game. We don't have to all vote Hap. If we can build a counterwagon, it's going to give people a choice. Aubrey is a legitimate D1 option if you help me make it so since I'm active enough to drive it home. If your only concern is that we may not have the numbers, just vote him and leave it to me.

(I seem to have misread the previous post so ignore that)