Mini 1877: Spyro the Dragon (Game Over)

[Infinity 324]

Gin, I've been giving reads all throughout my catchup. Only reason I haven't given one since is because I'm trying to sort people. But sure...

{eager}
{spammers, leon}
{massive, aella, flubber, cakez}
Null: {n_m}
{lane}

Trying to sort: you, MoI, RC

[Infinity 324]

But I don't understand what was a tossup about them since you kept pointing out town things about them and not scum things

scum things and not town things*

[Infinity 324]

Infinity, I'd like to make the comment that I notice a trend in you making an accusation when discussing things but like to trail off at the end saying "although it could mean blah blah."

Would you say that's a baseless accusation?

No, but I would say it's not a particularly alignment-indicative observation.

[Infinity 324]

We really don't need to get, it just lets scum know who to roleblock and who to kill.

[Infinity 324]

Not necessarily.

[Infinity 324]

So like, I'm a vig so I'm definitely getting blocked/redirected

And then a town role cop is usually a high priority kill

Town 1-shot rolecop is very low priority in a role madness.

It's not unlikely that we have 1-2 very powerful roles we want to keep hidden.

[Infinity 324]

How is an optional role negative utility 0_0

Nothing town or scum about aella's catchup

[Infinity 324]

I guess I'm saying that if its negative utility when you use the role, you can just no use it and then it's not negative utility.

But w/e

[Infinity 324]

You're wrong

[Infinity 324]

You're wrong that being against massclaim is only scum-motivated because I am against massclaim. The vote isn't bad, the reasoning is.

[Infinity 324]

I'll respond to magna and after that ISO gin in an hour or so. In the meantime magna: Why didn't you respond to my accusation that it was bad logic to base such a large part of your read on me on such a small sample of meta?

[Infinity 324]

So eager, what happens if there is a Mafia Doctor? What then?

I highly doubt that's something we should be worrying about and this question pings me pretty hard tbh

Why

[Infinity 324]

Eager. Massclaiming d1 is dumb and gives way too much info to scum.

[Infinity 324]

I don't think there's any reason to believe the mafia doc comment was not just an example to prove a point regardless of gin's alignment

[Infinity 324]

I'm taking strongman as a full on scum claim. There is no way I tell you why your theory is shit in a role madness and you use that as a reason to out that you're a strongman.

VOTE: eager

...no

Eager is still basically conf town. There are reasons for saying he's a strongman, some of which involve him being a strongman and some don't. Unvote.

[Infinity 324]

Gin, he claimed a

confirmable role

on

page 11

under basically no pressure.

[Infinity 324]

Gin. Think about it from his perspective. He thinks you may have slipped there's a mafia doc.

[Infinity 324]

It's very unlikely that eager is in fact a strongman. He was fakeclaiming to up the pressure. Now unvote.

[Infinity 324]

Gin, why the fuck does scum strongman claim strongman? Your theory makes zero sense.

[Infinity 324]

Gins rxn is shit

Why

[Infinity 324]

Gin, why the fuck does scum strongman claim strongman? Your theory makes zero sense.

He's going under the guise of being "Vig"

And?

Unless he claims to shoot someone a town doc would protect, there's no way of knowing he's really a strongman

You still haven't explained why scum would claim a confirmable role on page 11 when he really didn't have to

[Infinity 324]

I am not unvoting until you prove to me that Strongman is town aligned

There's no reason why it can't be.

[Infinity 324]

I'm not getting that gin is scum out of this interaction, quite the opposite actually

[Infinity 324]

HE'S CLAIMING TO SHOOT ANYONE THAT FUCKING DISAGREES WITH HIM. HOW THE FUCK IS THAT TOWN MOTIVATED

It's dumb motivated

[Infinity 324]

Gin, you're taking him too literally

I don't understand why you're getting so upset about a threat. Eager threatened to kill a lot of people. So what. He's using it to get reactions.

I'm not so sure this is town anymore

[Infinity 324]

There are two factions in this game. Loyal to Spyro (Town, 10 players) and Forces of Evil (Scum, 3 players).

[Infinity 324]

Hmmmm

[Infinity 324]

Bye gin, sorry

[Infinity 324]

Yes lane, but you shouldn't have claimed

I still need to ISO gin

[Infinity 324]

...in what way?

You demonstrated in that game you’d push a player (FAQ and Fire as Town, Shadow as scum) then find a way to back off later if it wasn't solidly received by Town. In this case the momentum on RC was pretty dead and you suddenly 180ed for bad reasons.

I don't remember backing off faq, and I definitely didn't back off shadow or fire...

Those were the two common games that came to mind. But this prompted me to looks at your games history and was reminded of The Purge Mafia where you were scum as well. So going to look at it later today also.

I meant in princess bride, I'm gonna check for myself

This is classic fence sit that appears to be looking to see what popular opinion on my analysis is … which is scum motivated play.

Nah, it's more like "this is different but still probably scum"

It absolutely has to do with lack of any engagement in the post you make.

I can't exactly get very engaged.

[Infinity 324]

Like what was the point of this question besides an attempt to discredit? If there is a mafia doctor, then they're going to claim doctor obvc. They're going to eventually claim that anyway, so them claiming it now rather than later makes what difference except they will be locked into that claim?

No he has a point. Maf doc means less info for town right now and makes massclaim less likely to be worth the risks

But I understand your concerns given that you're a strongman

The question is what's the point of the doc if there's a strongman anyway. Another vig?

[Infinity 324]

That's another thing I'm trying to figure out, Infinity. Maybe they have a bulletproof? Hmm IDK that's why I wanted a mass claim

Just be patient. This stuff doesn't have to get sorted out yet.

[Infinity 324]

Lane being town makes RC more likely to be scum

[Infinity 324]

His history of correctly reading RC

[Infinity 324]

Bussing gin??

[Infinity 324]

Mmmm

[Infinity 324]

The bussing didn't cross my mind tbh, it's definitely something to think about

[Infinity 324]

honestly gin's play isn't really looking like strong scum play. It looks towny but he doesn't seem to have a plan or anything. He votes people and pisses before off for no apparent benefit

[Infinity 324]

I think gin tends to vote people who piss him off, and you pissed him off by threatening to vig him. This is true regardless of gin's alignment, but I think he's more likely to go off the handle and do rash things (like voting the vig) as town. I don't think role necessarily isn't correlated with alignment, and gin could've believe that role does = alignment.

Massive's vote...was pretty bad, I admit. He still looks like he's gamesolving to me though in general

[Infinity 324]

For example I like massive's questioning of my n_m read

[Infinity 324]

I think if gin flips town you 1000% vig RC

[Infinity 324]

Yeah town can make "opportunistic" votes too though.

[Infinity 324]

For example I like massive's questioning of my n_m read

What exactly did you like about it because I've been questioning N_M reads all game

The way he went about it was genuine and it was a good point if you hadn't read the spoilers in depth

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: Infinity

we should lynch this first.

I thought gin was your super confident scumread

[Infinity 324]

I do think RC is town. The inclusion of Not_Mafia is WIFOMy at best and I kinda expected Infinity to call me on it.

Ok so he didn’t and I did. What does that say given Infinity is Town reading you?

I think the contents of the list are less likely to be closely scrutinized if he has a townread on me, and more likely to be closely scrutinized by someone still trying to sort me. That being said, even if he believes RC is town, N_M is definitely the "wha huh" on that list.

And while I was trying to figure this out, I thought "so what DOES Infinity think about N_M?" and he goes from light-town (1088) to light-scum (1102) to light-town (1452) with really on this as an explanation:

n_m is n_m

and some mod-related reason which doesn't appear to have anything actually to do with N_M.

Infinity can you explain the flow of the N_M read?

[Infinity 324]

Yeah...I'm going to already take us out of RVS, I'm reading this is a cheeky page 1 scum claim but doing only so because it's "RVS"

VOTE: Elsa

Other head is scum please help me bus thanks.

~Anna

I couldn't find it so because spammer has obviously seen RC do this before, I ask for where that was.

Theres way more info about elsa's alignement to be found by the content they produced than stupid rvs meta
-CK

Basically I caught a wiff of white knighting in this post where he says the reason I'm voting Elsa is "stupid rvs meta."

It's the fact that he used the word "stupid."

Using Ad hom to discredit my accusations on another player.

Hmm

Why does the vig soft completely fly over scum!gin's head

[Infinity 324]

Ignore the quotes

[Infinity 324]

Cool, double voters are town or scum, role !=AI.

EBWOP

hrmmm

[Infinity 324]

Maybe he's just saying that particular role isn't AI? idk

[Infinity 324]

you're an enigma

[Infinity 324]

Gin is town

VOTE: RC

trust your first instict

[Infinity 324]

Also I really want to point out that 'you're an enigma' really doesn't sound like something that town say to a scumread there. It makes perfect sense for scum to say to town though.

Lol, being confused about someone's play indicates nothing about their alignment

[Infinity 324]

I'm in the place where when you saids that you were going to vig me I had a replace request written but then unwrote it because you said that you were joking.

This is complete aids. If I am going to play in a playerlist where everyone is advocating policy lynches and vigs on me simply because of my name and avatar I'd rather get lynched day 1 tbh.

This is bullshit, no one is advocating a policy lynch on you

I think you're scum

[Infinity 324]

Lane's vote on me essentially boils down to policy since he has outright said he has no strong reason to scumread me. Magna hard advocated that I be lynched if I live to LyLo. So no.

"You're suspicious but I'm not super confident you're scum" is not policy by any stretch of the imagination. The lylo thing is fair though.

[Infinity 324]

One of them I can handle

You say this, but your reaction to me voting you earlier says something very different...

[Infinity 324]

The same kind of “Well maybe this maybe not” posting that has been previously pointed out by multiple players here.

I do this as both alignments

Look – a bunch of Townreads on people leading to his scum reads. Very familiar.

I do this all the time as both alignments

Mainly because your accusation is junk. Small sample size is a statistical measure not a measure of playstyle. You are trying to use it here to pretend that the large differences I have first hand observed in your Town and Scum games are aberrations. They aren’t. There was significant gaps in how you approached your reads in your Town and your scum games.

No, your meta analysis is shit because your sample size is too small. You're pointing out things in my scumgames that, if you saw more of my towngames, you'd know I do them all the time. Princess bride may be somewhat of an anomaly with respect to what you're looking at here, but the conclusions you're coming to about my meta are just wrong.

[Infinity 324]

I dont want to read everything, you guys can figure it out but i plan on being active d2
-CK

-_-

[Infinity 324]

Another reason I am voting you. Eager has proven nothing to this point. He is “Sort after N1” not confirmed Town. Odds of him being scum fake-claiming on Page 11? Small. But still possible.

And I'd say they're insignificantly small. But we both know this is pretty much irrelevant.

[Infinity 324]

It does bug me in general but nowhere near as much as I represented it in this game. I am fine in general with the current state of things; I mean despite paranoia I am probably one of the most difficult people to lynch on this site. It was entirely tactical in this game.

(wrt people suspecting him because of who he is)

hmmmmmm

[Infinity 324]

I explicitly said that it does bug me in general and this game has actually been an assload of it whereas in that game there was only one situation it actually happened and then a bunch of us claiming that it was policy.

In that game most slots treated you guys differently because of who you were

But this is still kind of a stretch.

Realize that the main reason I re-voted you is because you're so confident gin is scum and I'm so confident he's town.

[Infinity 324]

Super confident scum gin doesn't replace out under pressure because someone threatened to vig him.

He replaced out because he was frustrated with a townie's play.

[Infinity 324]

That was thinkbig not gin...

[Infinity 324]

No

[Infinity 324]

Ok so at this point it's just a matter of finding which of my townreads are wrong. The play of most of my nulltowns is relatively in the range of most scumgames so I just have to interact with them more. RC is probably scum because it's unlikely he's wrong about his top 2 scumreads and I have a really hard time seeing gin as scum. Also the other issues I had with his play are still there minus the AtE which I realized is NAI...MoI I find scummy but I still don't really know how to distinguish between his town and scum games so I could be wrong there. The rest are likely in {aella, n_m, cakez, massive}

[Infinity 324]

I don't like that gin vote from cakez

[Infinity 324]

This burden of proficiency argument is getting old quick mind you. It holds no water.

RC himself said to vig him if gin flips town...

[Infinity 324]

That readslist from Infinity gives me the heebie-jeebies.

Why?

What do you think about RC v gin?

[Infinity 324]

I disagree

[Infinity 324]

are able to confidently determine RC!scum at the drop of a hat.

I never said this. That is why I reconsidered, but ultimately I decided you're more likely scum than not.

[Infinity 324]

Again, the tells I noticed are a small part of the reason I'm voting you right now.

[Infinity 324]

The people who are qualified to make this decision would say that I'm either obviously or heavily leaning town because I'm sorta obviously town here.

Who would those people be? Not lane obviously, the guy who has the history of correctly reading you...

[Infinity 324]

Oh, "would say"

ok

I can't take your word for this shit lol

[Infinity 324]

RC, I don't want to play these games. I vote who I think is scum, and that's the end of that. If you don't like it, too bad. If that scenario happens, oh well it's part of the game.

[Infinity 324]

It's part of the game, that's what I said. It's not ducking responsibility to vote who I think is scum. I hope I can do a good enough job of proving I'm town to avoid getting lynched or vigged if you flip town, but it's possible I won't. However, I'm not going to give extra weight to your threats. Anyone I vote carries a risk of them being town, that doesn't mean I shouldn't vote.

This is a dumb conversation

[Infinity 324]

Gin's 1501 explains why this would be a bad reason to scumread someone, but my issue with your post is that it feels like a premature backtrack. You're townreading him and said that he'd have to be "god scum" this game, yet you felt the need to state conditions under which you would change your read. There's no reason for town to foreshadow how their reads might change, since town play is inherently reactive, but I can see why scum might feel the need to have a backdoor in their ISO, just in case. Commenting on LYLO reads D1 just seems too forward-thinking for town.

Having recently finished a game in which 2 scum I had strong townreads on both lived to endgame, I may be thinking about things a little differently than you expect.

[Infinity 324]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=70181

PEdit: it seems opportunistic and out of nowhere. But now that you ask, let's talk about it. Why does scum!gin who's so confident in his scum game, replace out under pressure? Why can't town!gin be frustrated and not thinking clearly?

[Infinity 324]

It could be "this guy so bad and he's going to catch me? fuck that" as scum but I find it more likely that it's "this idiot is going to shoot me? fuck that" or "this guy is so bad and I have to work with him? fuck that" from town

And I didn't realize you were scumreading gin before, fair

[Infinity 324]

Occam's razor says it's a silly town play rather than a weird scum gambit. There's a lot more on the line for scum if they do a play like that.

Also it would take more thinking through as scum...don't you think they would be more likely think through that it's a dumb play?

Also I don't think scum would even out it if no one noticed anyway.

[Infinity 324]

Fair on both

[Infinity 324]

Deadline: (expired on 2017-02-20 01:23:53).[/color][/font][/size]

[Infinity 324]

Deadline: (expired on 2017-02-20 01:23:53).[/color][/font][/size]

Wrong. It's in 4 hours

wtf? That's a countdown

[Infinity 324]

Infinity, of course scum would out it. Once they realized how idiotic it was. None of it makes sense coming from town. None of it. You can make a case for why scum would counter claim someone, even if it's a bad idea

And what's that case exactly?

Just like scum can do dumb stuff, town can do dumb stuff too. But I think I explained why it's more likely for it to be dumb town than dumb scum.

I guess it makes sense for scum to out it so no one catches them with it later. But if scum wanted the counterclaim to be noticed it would be noticed. Waiting until d2 to backtrack is just too dumb for anyone to attempt imo.

Again, there's a lot more incentive for scum to think things through carefully in this case than town.

[Infinity 324]

lol, the 9 day deadline is a countdown so it's still accurate. we got time

[Infinity 324]

lol, the 9 day deadline is a countdown so it's still accurate. we got time

...you actually don't get it, do you?

No I don't

Also lane, standard play with counterclaims is to outright claim and not soft. So I'm pretty sure if someone noticed they'd be suspicious. There's no way someone notices that and eager dies but they survive, and anyone who thought it through enough not to outright claim would think it through enough to realize the whole idea of it is dumb.

It makes sense as town to do something that seems like a good idea in their head and is fun/cutesy but is dumb in practice

[Infinity 324]

RC is not a friendly neighbor, he is a messenger.

[Infinity 324]

the rest of role pm describes "frinedly neighbour" who can send an anonymous message to someone else over night.

Apparently it's in their role pm

[Infinity 324]

Because despite saying you need to figure out which of your town reads is wrong, you list six scumreads and don't seem concerned about that end of the equation.

I am concerned about it, but I haven't seen anything particular indication that any of my townreads are wrong--that's why they're still townreads, after all. You, cakez, and aella haven't been the most active, so I need to interact with you guys going forward instead of looking back pretty much.

PEdit: that votecount is terrible. I'd be surprised if anyone being voted other than RC is scum.

massive, vote someone else?

[Infinity 324]

The aws hydra

?

[Infinity 324]

Yeah it is magna but the question is whether he would use it as town too

I was thinking yes at first but then I remembered that quote from post game where RC said he was fine with the current state of things, and I think that is the key part

RC's explanation was unconvincing

[Infinity 324]

Also the fact that he stopped AtE'ing after a while, he also did that in hydra blitz. It's not like someone can just stop being pissed off, and he didn't just give up...

Everything just makes more sense with RC scum

[Infinity 324]

So since Lane has been confirmed Innocent Child I’m reversing my stance and saying finish the Mass claim. Anyone now object?

We don't want scum to know their n2 or n3 kills/roleblocks, so yes I do object. D2 maybe.

VOTE: Gin

RC I am sorely tempted to vote but Gin flipping Town means he’s Vigged or lynched tomorrow.

...yeah he's trying to save his buddy and get an extra mislynch in or hope RC squirms his way out of it as usual.

Oh how quaint … “No U!” responding. Nevermind that in both these cases you didn’t these noticeably in Princess Bride as Town but did do them noticeably in both Poker and Purge as scum. And that you aren’t providing actual support to show these aren’t just fluff.

Typical scum response – just call things bullshit and foist empty claims “If you saw my Town game you would see I do this scummy, scummy things as Town also” with no proof to go with it. If those examples were as common as you are claiming I’d have expected you to refute with actual games as proof instead of just empty “I do it as Town” statements and faulty “small sample size” arguments.

...

I provided 3 recent towngames in this thread, including oots which you modded. I don't remember specifics very clearly, but I'm sure any of them would prove my point.

[Infinity 324]

MoI advocating massclaim d1 is so out of character for him

And the flip from RC to gin just because of gin's eager vote is just grossss

[Infinity 324]

@MoI: How closely were you following oots?

[Infinity 324]

MoI, your request for me to give counterexamples is not unreasonable but I still maintain that judging someone's playstyle based only on 1 town game and 2 scum games is.

[Infinity 324]

Gin and n_m have 1-shot rolecops

[Infinity 324]

Yeah I took a spin through OOTS. Looks absolutely nothing like you here or your confirmed Scum games. I don’t see you having too many Townreadsthat game. And very, very few “This person is Town” for completely shallow reasons. A completely different level of inquiry and engagement. The fact that you present it as a rebuttal is bad.

Actually it had pretty much everything you accused me of expect for the too many townreads part:

Spoiler: oots

wisdom, what do you think about Tammy, nacho, and bulbazwk?

That's what changed, he made that post lol

What I'm curious about is why you didn't respond to grey's reaction to tour presumed reaction test. He didn't seem to consider you were faking a reaction test (or town for that matter). What do you think

How's it going tammy

What's your opinion on wraith? bulba? wisdom?

Ok. Who is your top pick for some outside of your main reads

Why town leans on bulba and cakez

asking other people's opinions on stuff

VOTE: wisdom

I don't like how much fluff this guy has

UNVOTE:

re: the unvote, it was a combination of not being sure that the off-topic-ish things are scummy and liking wisdom's reaction

Voting and then backtracking after it was unpopular (nacho and wisdom were grilling me for this vote in between here)

No shit it's a quick turnaround, it's page 19 and I don't have any strong scumreads.

I do not have a scumread besides wraith at this point.

I don't know who scum is, but that's ok I guess.

Not having many scumreads

(yes I'm POEing this early deal with it, I have a ton of townreads)

I like this line

I think there's ammo that farside could've used against me that she didn't and it's weirding me out. I won't say what it is just yet, but I will say that it makes her more likely to be town since the most likely scenario is that she doesn't consider it ammo. Whereas a scum tunneler would use everything and anything to justify their case.

He started at least trying to look like he's scumhunting and gave me the immediate vibes of "so bad it's town", like he wasn't trying to look good. So I guess that made up for his earlier stuff in my mind.

Correct.

Why? He was as defensive in the previous ones too. What's different now?

He was a little defensive about a small issue, now he's showing a level of concern and a level of words dedicated to defending himself that wasn't there before. The issue isn't defending himself, townies can defend themselves, it's the overreaction to his wagon. Town would probably approach it like "I'm suspicious that 4 people just jumped on a lurker wagon" or "Can you guys explain why you scumread me" not what he did.

My reaction was due to a mix of stress and genuine frustration and powerlessness that I was facing a large wagon when I hadn't even read the game yet. But defending my defensiveness is just going to be an endless cycle, focusing on scumhunting now.

I actually like this response

Infinity 324 (1) - farside22
PeregrineV (1) - shaddowez
Nachomamma8 (3) - Kagami, Wisdom, Tammy
kraska77 (1) - Leonshade
Wisdom (2) - SirCakez, Wraith
SirCakez (1) - PeregrineV
Wraith (1) - Infinity 324

farfar what do u think of kagami
shaddow, kagami, wisdom, tammy hey guys who are u reading as scum
leonshade hey bud explain that weird vote
pere why are u still voting cakeman
inifinity why are you voting wraith?
bulbzak show up pls

This post reads town to me

I don't know why people have a town read on cakes, so I'd love it if someone explained it to me. Preferably something better than he's town.

He's scumhunting but not trying to look like he's scumhunting.

i didn't really like her response to my questions but i'm also not sure if she knows any better

The pronoun mixup makes nacho more likely to be town, don't think he'd fake that

Townreading people for "weak" reasons

The only thing I didn't do here was have too many townreads. I'd be happy to provide towngames of mine where that occured if you'd like me to.

[Infinity 324]

The first sentence is empty posting. Of course it is out of character for me. Most Mini Closed Themes we don’t have half the playerbase claiming before a Day 1 lynch and a Mod confirmed Innocent Child. Your attempt to suggest it is scummy while not taking into account the very real game-state is scum posting 101 – finding things you think you can frame as scummy as opposed to actually looking for scummy play.

The second sentence is scummy as it is completely factually incorrect. I was not voting RC before I voted Gin … I was voting you. And before that I was voting SirCakez.

First of all, it's true that this is a special case, but I'd still expect you to err on the side of less info to scum. Again, we don't want the scum to know who to kill/rb on n2.

Second, it's true that you weren't voting RC but you were scumreading him not long ago and now you want to lynch his top suspect over him because of a dumb vote? I don't buy it.

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: RC

Aella's hammer was bad but I'm not sure if it was scummy.

[Infinity 324]

Ali can we talk about your scumread on me? I just thought

[Infinity 324]

Ali can we talk about your scumread on me? I just thought gin was pretty obviously town and that's where my certainty came from.

[Infinity 324]

Why couldn't I have been town who just had a townread on him? I think I pointed out a lot of specifics which contributed to my read...

I will say that aella has dropped below null because of the magna kill and the associations as well as the hammer

[Infinity 324]

Cakez's read on spammers looks like S/T

[Infinity 324]

Scum don't usually have certain townreads on their scumbuddies

I think it's possible we should massclaim today given that lane is still alive and the n_m presumably has a result, what do you guys think

[Infinity 324]

massive wagon should be massive rn

What's the reasoning for this beyond lurking? (which is massive 101)

This could be S/S

I mean we basically know nothing about what YOU think. Give some content.

Does this look like Town talking to a scum read to you? Sir Cakez’s vote was on Aella at this point. Looks very much like “Be more Town” to a partner.

I can see where your other parts of your read on me come from but this is bogus. I have literally never seen scum perform a "psst psst be more town" kind of post in thread and I'm pretty sure that means you haven't either. It's just a bogus scumtell, like AtE.

You know, I actually think magna had a point here. In poker mafia I pushed for my partner to give reads, and I think this might be something similar. I definitely agree it doesn't look like town talking to a scumread, or l even scum talking to a townie.

Despite all that, I think RC is the best lynch today. I don't think town!RC tunnels a universal townread until they get lynched, and RC will probably squirm out of a lynch later if we don't lynch him today.

[Infinity 324]

Scum don't usually have certain townreads on their scumbuddies

[Infinity 324]

Actually I misread one of cakez's posts

[Infinity 324]

TheRealGin-N-Tonic [7] - eagerSnake, Not_Mafia, SirCakez, MagnaofIllusion, RagingSpammers, RadiantCowbells, Ælla Was Spine

It's very likely there are 3 scum here. Only one I would look at off the wagon is massive.

@massive: Why did you keep your vote on eager after you realized there couldn't be an SK?

[Infinity 324]

massive, I'd also like to know where you are with reads at the moment and why you've focused in the places you've focused up to this point (which, iirc, has been mainly me)

[Infinity 324]

Both, I think gin was likely towny enough that the wagon needed 3 scum including RC as well as the vig pushing it.

[Infinity 324]

It's not even like I didn't consider gin being scum. I started with a townread on gin, re-evaluated, then came to the townread again.

[Infinity 324]

Not many people were suspecting him either though...

I think MoI was killed to protect one or more members of the scumteam

[Infinity 324]

And you.

[Infinity 324]

RC I am sorely tempted to vote but Gin flipping Town means he’s Vigged or lynched tomorrow. And while the people on Raging’s wagon look overall better than the make-up of RC or Gin’s wagon I have yet to see anyone posit that the Ali head lurks as scum.

Not to mention he jumped on your wagon at one point as well.

Also he scumread cakez so yeah, MoI kill makes sense even though not a lot of people explicitly townread him.

[Infinity 324]

I really don't care how confident you are. If I'm getting lynched anyway I want N_M to either get nightkilled by scum or brought to endgame. non negotiable.

You power lynched the most Townie player we had. Self voted 3 (4?) times. Continuously give no case for anything. Beg to be lynched, and you think you have some sort of authority here? Lol

Who did you send a message to? I'm 90% sure massive is town. And if NM is saying their scum, I want to know why you think nm is town

Why is massive town?

RC deathtunneled Gin with a strongman vig in the game and brought endless attention to himself in the process, either he was

really

confident that people wouldn't vig/lynch him despite a Gin town flip, or he's town. Gin 1v1 would not have been in scum's favor.

RC does that kind of shit cause he knows he can get away with it. E&A proposed a 1v1 on a townie in hydra blitz as scum

[Infinity 324]

I didn't send a message because I thought that I was getting vig killed.

o_O

O_o

[Infinity 324]

Infinity unvote me because you're hammering me.

Supersaint?

Eh ok

UNVOTE:

[Infinity 324]

Whoever is alive between RC and aella

[Infinity 324]

He made a scumpartner-esqe push on aella and a less scumpartner-esqe push on leon iirc

[Infinity 324]

like did he ever act confident like "omg this is scum" and continue to shittily push that slot

I don't think so, I'm checking his ISO I'll get back to you

[Infinity 324]

Because his game has still been scummy and the only thing that kept him from being lynched was the vig claim?

Why not wait til d2 though

When did I focus on you?

You did direct quite a few questions to me yesterday, but that makes sense since I'm in your scumpool

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: RC

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: aella

This should die now

[Infinity 324]

@n_m Result?

[Infinity 324]

What's your read on aella RS

[Infinity 324]

Vote them while we wait for lane to explain his massive read?

[Infinity 324]

RC flipping town makes MoI kill make even less sense if aella is town

It's probably not a WIFOM kill either since MoI's top scumread was cakez and he had a lot of scumreads

[Infinity 324]

Anyone who townreads aella should explain why they think MoI died

I'm tempted to trust RC's read on n_m. I guess n_m doesn't have to out anyone's role if he doesn't want to but I want to hear from lane about his massive vote. Also because massive would be my strongest suspect for the last scum.

I also want to hear from flubber about whether we should still wait to massclaim from his perspective. If so we should do that.

[Infinity 324]

Ok

[Infinity 324]

Vote them while we wait for lane to explain his massive read?

SirCakez gave me his tracker

Interesting...are you willing to claim your result? Why do yo think he did that?

[Infinity 324]

But you're pushing this idea that Magna was killed because of his reads. Who would you have killed N1? Snake and lane would've been the two obvious shots, but lane said he'd JK Snake, and scum might have chosen to play around a town protective by not shooting lane. Or maybe they thought Magna was softing some PR. Instead you seem convinced that it was because of Magna's reads. Why?

Because I don't think scum would've expected a second town protective, and I doubt scum thought he was softing anything. But sure, those are possibilities.

I'm an odd night roleblocker, I targeted no one n1 because I thought the risk of blocking town was higher than the possible benefit

[Infinity 324]

Sgt. James byrd

[Infinity 324]

Exactly where I'm at. Except you just have to trust me massive is town and flubber is most likely town

If this is true I'd look at n_m, but I want to trust RC. But then again RC had terrible other reads so...

Popcorn flubber I guess

[Infinity 324]

Wait popcorn aella duh

[Infinity 324]

Yeah I guess he was probably gonna claim that later

[Infinity 324]

Aella popcorn someone (flubber or massive I think)

[Infinity 324]

jk, odd-night rb, even-night rb, and doc giver is a shitton of protective power. But then again flubber is claiming that there's 2 strongmen...seems kinda unlikely

Honestly the setup would make the most sense if massive and flubber were both scum, but lol

Massive's role doesn't make a lot of sense for scum

It's likely they're just both town

[Infinity 324]

He gave you a doc, SirCakez visited me. Scum can only use one power role and 1 kill. Therefore, massive town

How about the third scum?

[Infinity 324]

He gave you a doc, SirCakez visited me. Scum can only use one power role and 1 kill. Therefore, massive town

How about the third scum?

What do you mean what about the third scum? We still haven't found the second...

Cakez used the tracker
Massive could've been scum with his ability

And the third scum could've made the kill. Massive definitely isn't conf town

If JK is fake that makes the protective situation make more sense, though aella is still probably scum. odd-night rb + even-night rb + doc giver is reasonable.

For investigatives, we have the rolecops + watcher + leon + IC (kinda). One of these is likely the last scum

[Infinity 324]

For flubber to be town, we still need scum to have 2 strongmen remember....

I think it's aella + flubber

PEdit: yes watcher is investigative

[Infinity 324]

Flubber claimed to have docced and watched I think. Which is also kinda sus...

VOTE: flubber

[Infinity 324]

@Mod: Can players use more than one action per night?

[Infinity 324]

Flubber could've docced and watched, have to wait for the mod answer.

In any case he should claim his second watch.

[Infinity 324]

but it's unlikely scum have 2 strongmen. I think doc giver caught scum lol

[Infinity 324]

Think the scum fell for Snake's bluff? Maybe the doc was used on a buddy just in case Snake had a second shot.

Hmm...why wouldn't flubber just not use the shot in that case if he was scum? Maybe in case there was a voyeur since tracker screws him anyway?

Snake was a strongman

[Infinity 324]

True, maybe scum don't have protectives so they didn't believe the vig was strongman.

I was thinking there wasn't a downside to playing around voyeur, but in that case flubber would be vulnerable to tracker. In any case, he may have believed it was worth it to protect his buddy in case eager was multiple-shot and not strongman.

[Infinity 324]

Actually, flubber would have no excuse not to use the doc. So tracker/watcher would've burned him anyway.

Yeah there's no reason scum!flubber wouldn't use a doc

[Infinity 324]

Hmm...why wouldn't flubber just not use the shot in that case if he was scum?

Responding to this question, I've determined that flubber would use the doc shot as scum. So he's probably scum

[Infinity 324]

Watcher is an investigative

[Infinity 324]

Unless there are 2 scum strongmen, yes

[Infinity 324]

But I wouldn't vote until we get a vc

[Infinity 324]

Or my role, or magna's role

[Infinity 324]

The question is, why would scum!flubber not just claim to have protected lane?

[Infinity 324]

Got it, but that just seems unlikely.

[Infinity 324]

You guys are really trying to say an x-day strongman is a counter to several roleblockers and an unlimited shot doc inventor?

Giving scum power to counter all the town power is not how you balance games...

If they had 2 strongmen all 3 of those roles would be relatively useless

[Infinity 324]

I doubt TTH put in town protective roles just to force scum to play worse into the watcher. That assumes the stronger players have the strongman (or else the same players would make the kill) and thathe watcher actually catches scum.

The amount of power is fine imo if scum have 3 decent PRs and town doesn't have a watcher.

[Infinity 324]

Lane, why couldn't scumwatcher!flubber have used the watch shot and the doc shot? Why do you think there are 2 strongmen?

[Infinity 324]

If we're not lynching flubber, we should be lynching in aella and me today because it's very unlikely town has odd- and even-night rbs, conditional BP, doc giver, and commuter

I still find it very unlikely scum have 2 strongmen, but aella is scummiest by play anyway.

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: aella

[Infinity 324]

I blocked RS, I thought flubber was scum but I didn't think he'd be making the kill

And I didn't want to block n_m's rolecop

My reads have been shit this game I'm sorry

[Infinity 324]

Thoughts on lynch vs no lynch? If N_M hasn't used the rolecop I say we definitely no lynch.

We should no lynch, maybe if I'm still alive n5 I can block someone

[Infinity 324]

I think scum is probably n_m + flubber

[Infinity 324]

I wanna see what massive says.

[Infinity 324]

I blocked RS, I thought flubber was scum but I didn't think he'd be making the kill

And I didn't want to block n_m's rolecop

My reads have been shit this game I'm sorry

[Infinity 324]

Leon I still don't get how you think scum have another strongman

Why didn't they just kill lane if they did

[Infinity 324]

N2 I mean

[Infinity 324]

With someone giving out doctors like a pinata I wouldn't be surprised if scum had multiple 1-shot strongmen.
-Ali

And then so many town roles would be nearly useless.

Why did eager die n2 and not lane

@leon Honestly I townread rs strongly enough that I'd rather you go after me first, I think I can defend myself better than I can defend them

[Infinity 324]

Scum wouldn't play around watcher anyway, I think they thought jk IC was too powerful to exist

[Infinity 324]

Because they figured out lane was BP trying to bait the kill

[Infinity 324]

We again see people thinking that making roles useless in a ROLE MADNESS game doesn't make sense

When it's 4 roles, then yeah

[Infinity 324]

-_-

If spammers is town I guess we lose

[Infinity 324]

Actually it doesn't matter whether we lynch today or tomorrow

[Infinity 324]

I guess there's a question of why spammers haven't been lynched yet given how many people scumread them

But then again, who could've been the buddy defending them? Flubber and n_m were inactive while leon was pushing them

(Inb4 "you were!!")

It's got to be flubber+n_m

Anyway VOTE: no lynch

[Infinity 324]

We're gonna have to nl anyway, doesn't matter when we do it. We might get some wine out of it this way.

[Infinity 324]

But we can't win unless we do some serious gamesolving. I'm not that motivated for this game right now but maybe later this week or this weekend I will be.

[Infinity 324]

If I block someone and a kill goes through, that at least helps us narrow it down for lylo. Assuming scum don't have another strongman left

[Infinity 324]

I find it odd that more people aren't suspecting flubber because by setup spec he makes the most sense for scum but wine I guess

[Infinity 324]

If I claim to roleblock someone then that narrow it down even if I'm scum

[Infinity 324]

I just wonder why scum aren't jumping on him

[Infinity 324]

No he didn't

[Infinity 324]

Well if there are competing wagons on town scum usually don't care and would like to stay out of the way, so that would make sense. The fact that both wagons are on town actually indicates both the wagonees are town to me, since scum would probably be voting you to cw.

The 5 man wagon is an ok point but sometimes that just happens

[Infinity 324]

Man I'm pretty sure flubber is scum with n_m cause I'm not seeing spammers and I'm not seeing leon but my other reads this game have all been shit...

What can I do to convince you guys.

[Infinity 324]

No.

[Infinity 324]

Ali can you explain your scumread on me more?

[Infinity 324]

Flubber was inactive too, so if we agree that all the scum were inactive VCA is pretty much irrelevant. 5 town aren't that much more likely to be right than they are wrong really on d1

[Infinity 324]

Ali can you explain your scumread on me more?

PoE and how you treated Gin.
-Ali

Cause I had a strong townread on him I couldn't explain and I was right? -_-

[Infinity 324]

[Infinity 324]

I'm not so sure spammers are town

[Infinity 324]

There's ongoing-related stuff going on here

[Infinity 324]

Ali you are infuriating and should not have said that

[Infinity 324]

Flubber was inactive too, so if we agree that all the scum were inactive VCA is pretty much irrelevant. 5 town aren't that much more likely to be right than they are wrong really on d1

The points isn't that town are right or wrong. The point is, in a game with 10 town, you cannot expect me to believe that the first two wagons involve nine of them and zero scum. Cakez and whichever of the random one-off votes comes from scum make MUCH more sense when the primary wagon is on scum.

What I'm saying is that if cakez could join a main wagon on town, why couldn't he join a counterwagon if the main wagon was on scum?

[Infinity 324]

FUCK ALI MAKES NO SENSE AND I WANNA IGNORE IT BUT I CANT NOW THAT HE BROUGHT IT UP

[Infinity 324]

Ali you were the one that started it but fine. I won't bring it up again

[Infinity 324]

Yes and you saw who massive gave the shot for n3 to, on n2

[Infinity 324]

I have a theory about NM and Leon being the scumteam, and I feel really good about it.
Anyone wanna hear it out?
-Ali

Ok...

@massive Just because flubber' sorry makes sense doesn't mean he's town...his play makes just as much sense as scum watcher.

Also, we're going to no lynch eventually so we might as well do it now...

[Infinity 324]

Too bad, I'm talking about it anyways.
Why Leon is scum: Why does town need a GLOBAL Voyeur again? Like, I don't see why the GLOBAL part is needed at all. If anything it's scum!utlitly. Not to mention he's going after the easy mislynch, which is, well, me, and that's scummy becasue if I get mislynched, scum basicly wins the game.
Why NM is scum with Leon: For some reason he decided to confirm Leon > Me. It's easy to confirm your scumbuddy, right? Plus scum!NM could probably get away with it easily.
Also when I bring up the neighborhood arguement, Leon attacks me for it immediately. This is basicly a chainsaw defense. NM is likely to be the other Strongman that we're talking about.
-Ali

And this is enough to drop your scumread on me completely??

ffs ali. If you're town calm down, do some rereading, and come to a conclusion.

[Infinity 324]

Also, we're going to no lynch eventually so we might as well do it now...

I really don't see why we should when Massive is just going to die and we're going to get no infromation from massive's death.
I also don't see why when we can just lynch scum today and win, but hey, that's just my opinion.
-Ali

It doesn't. Matter. Whether. We. No lynch. Today or later on.

Also we don't win if we lynch scum today -_-

[Infinity 324]

And this is enough to drop your scumread on me completely??

ffs ali. If you're town calm down, do some rereading, and come to a conclusion.

Yes.
And bruh this is litterally textbook Ali catching scum late game.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=69849
Like I did in here.
-Ali

Ok fine. Town needs the global part to catch people who are fakeclaiming. Scum!n_m targeted leon because he didn't want to clear anyone that was a top suspect.

WHY IS FLUBBER TOWN

[Infinity 324]

Also, we're going to no lynch eventually so we might as well do it now...

I really don't see why we should when Massive is just going to die and we're going to get no infromation from massive's death.
I also don't see why when we can just lynch scum today and win, but hey, that's just my opinion.
-Ali

It doesn't. Matter. Whether. We. No lynch. Today or later on.

Also we don't win if we lynch scum today -_-

We win if we lynch both scum.
This is what I mean, you know this inf.
Now you're just argueing semantics.
-Ali

Scum have to NK 2 people before lylo. Currently, everyone in the game except massive is suspected by someone. It will give us info and it will give us another roleblock which also gives info even if I'm scum. But as long as you agree we no lynch eventually, it doesn't matter...

[Infinity 324]

This is irrevelant. No lynch is objectively the correct play in mylo and I don't even believe that you're 100% town at this point.

[Infinity 324]

Well a scum watcher is not that weak and I think town not having watcher is enough of a nerf to town. Also I think global voyeur is more useful to town than scum because it doesn't help scum who to kill, where town can use it to find fakeclaims.

PEdit: you won't be NKed lol