Civilization Mafia [GAME OVER]

[Spiffeh]

@mod If Arts is chosen, will a vote/lynch mechanic still be available during MYLO/LYLO?

[Spiffeh]

Suggestion: We publicly agree on who builds which wonder, so that everyone else can submit no build request and get a higher priority during the next era. Then those player agree on which wonders to build while everyone else sits it out, and so on.

Also, I say Sciences on the resolution.

I am strongly against this plan

This would be like only having a few power roles and all of them outing themselves immediately

Scum then know who they have to worry about and can neutralize the role that's most threatening to them

[Spiffeh]

VOTE: None

This should be the vote today

Sciences allows scum to plan ahead and know whether to save themselves to contest town for a certain ability in the future. They already have a numbers disadvantage so we shouldn't allow them any more information about roles than they get right now. I don't really see a benefit for town.

As for Arts, the only role I can think of that would have a significant impact on the game would be a lynchproof which only benefits scum. Things such as double votes could screw us over in LYLO/MYLO situations (though I'd hope Nahdia would design the game in a way where that couldn't happen).

[Spiffeh]

@Titus I refuse to go another game coordinating night actions unnecessarily after The Thing Mafia. The Thing was different in that everyone's role was public knowledge so it made sense to coordinate night actions and even then, scum had a pretty easy time slipping through the cracks because of every night action being public.

What you're suggesting gives scum a roadmap as to how to proceed during the night JUST like it did in that game.

[Spiffeh]

@mod If Arts is chosen, will a vote/lynch mechanic still be available during MYLO/LYLO?

Why does it seem like you're thinking so far ahead?

I'd like to know if picking Arts could fuck us over if scum end up getting like a double vote on a day with LYLO effect.

Like I said though, I don't think Nahdia would design a game where a decision this early would basically lose us the game in the end.

[Spiffeh]

I fully expect Gerry to want to take any wonder that has kill in the name....I may not stop him (B
Anyone who is voting art you're insane that's a pro scum choice and science is already explained on why it's trash now we gonna take 10 pages explaining this?
~Maria

What do you think of Titus' case for Sciences?

[Spiffeh]

The fact that Titus is not acknowledging the concerns for Sciences that a few of us have raised and keeps harping on "but we could do this with these roles!!!" is concerning.

[Spiffeh]

In other news uhh I did read what the two resolutions do and i'ma stick with science. Giving us the ability to better plan ahead for wonders > possibly giving scum more vote power

Did you see that there is an option to vote for neither?

Did you read the concerns brought up by a few players as to why Sciences is the best option for scum?

[Spiffeh]

Peregrine, Arts isn't happening so I suggest you vote None.

I want this phase over with as soon as possible.

[Spiffeh]

Take it from a group of people who did all the planning they needed for a scum win
And take it from the people who had to deal with it on the town side aswell town lost both times a ton of planning was put into something along these lines
(Pick your power and the thing)
This is a no go
~Maria

We are the true victims of the Thing endgame

No one else will ever understand

[Spiffeh]

beeboy why are all the things you are saying so aggressively wrong

[Spiffeh]

Ok vote for None to help speed up the process

[Spiffeh]

I just think we will get more powers if our day 1 powers are an investigative, doctor and a redirecting BP

I don't think you understand the mechanics

[Spiffeh]

Can we hammer a vote on None before Science actually becomes a plausible please

[Spiffeh]

Spiffeh you're better than this. Titus is absurdly good with information and if people will let her do her thing. Throwing shade on her for doing exactly what one would expect her to do as town ... not so good.

I've never known Titus to be like some scumhunting God as her information grows

She's a fine player but this has never been one of her identifiers as far as I've known.

In The Thing we all had all the information out on the table and she didn't do anything special with it that everyone else didn't figure out themselves. So I am definitely not giving scum a significant advantage in knowing what roles to cash in on or wait for because" Titus can do things with information!!!".

Your "closing the information gap" argument doesn't resonate with me. It is much easier for scum to plan things out. There are less bodies to fuck things up and they will have a PT (because they will likely get the daychat ability) solely to plan out their actions. And if the plan is for each role to go to an assigned person and force them to target what a "town-bloc contingent" decides, I will be replacing out. A public plan was exactly how the scum team in the Thing won the game and I don't have it in me to go through all the bullshit that comes with a Night Action Plan again.

[Spiffeh]

I think the point is we just pick the role we like without actually talking about it.

This is what should be done

And no one should be claiming whether they got a power or not

This way scum don't know who holds the power roles and don't have an easy nightkill mapped out for them. If we try to plan things out scum get an even greater information advantage than they already have.

[Spiffeh]

I'm realizing that my biggest issue is with Science + Role Claiming + Night Action Planning

Going Science without the other two isn't as bad as it doesn't give scum the roadmap that will allow them to optimize their actions and kills.

Science by itself still gives scum an advantage imo as they have an easier way to plan which roles to take and maximizing their priority.

I also wouldn't be surprised if scum had some role that allowed them to mess with priorities but that is just speculation atm

[Spiffeh]

Bottom line: None is still the best choice

[Spiffeh]

Titus, the only reason it made sense to go with the Night Action Plan in the Thing is because literally every role was out on the table and everyone knew who had it.

There are too many variables in this game for it to be successful again.

We don't know what other roles scum could possess that can fuck things up. If we give them a night action roadmap a la The Thing, they are able to optimally use whatever they have to their highest advantage which can lead us on the wrong track during the Day.

[Spiffeh]

Creature if you don't want this game to end up like The Thing, vote for None.

[Spiffeh]

Creature if you don't want this game to end up like The Thing, vote for None.

Do you only have an appeal to fear to work with?

Seriously?

Did you not read literally every other post I've made today that outlines exactly why I feel None is the best option?

[Spiffeh]

I wanna know why are you against wonder planning in public, Vecna. It lowers the possibility of two players picking the same wonder imo

Who cares?

People can go with what they want and if they don't get it then they don't get it. It's just like if power roles were being randomized at the beginning of the game, except with this draft we just state our preference.

PEdit: No Peregrine, everyone should pick what they want to pick.

[Spiffeh]

I have to go now, still haven't finished reading.

I have a few loose town reads but it's tough to be solid on those when the entire discussion has been about setup and little scum hunting has taken place.

[Spiffeh]

VOTE: Nero Cain

[Spiffeh]

Frog: How or where do you get the notion of responding with "this is my obvtown game". Is it like... am I supposed to know your meta so you're self-metaing at me?

SPIFFEH

I don't know if you're asking me to corroborate that this is your town meta

But I don't see anything that you've done so far that couldn't come from scum!Frog

[Spiffeh]

Actually Frog I'm curious as to why you wrote me off as town so quickly?

[Spiffeh]

VOTE: Spiffeh

Yup.
Felt some of his arguments came across a little disingenuous, didn't like some of his passive-aggressive scumreads and didn't like his fear mongering because of how a town lost a previous game. Felt off
Random vote on Nero doesn't help

Which posts did you feel came across disingenuous?

I don't know what you mean by "passive-aggressive scumreads" as I haven't really made public any scum reads. I barely even have any to begin with. The only person I really expressed suspicion of at any point was Titus for wanting to pick Science.

Also, you don't think previous experience with a similar mechanic isn't something I should draw from when deciding how to proceed? You can call it fear mongering, but I think it's weird to jump to a buzzword rather than look at my actual arguments and see if they're plausible.

[Spiffeh]

I voted for Nero because his posts during the Resolution Phase looked like he posted them just to seem like he was participating in the discussion.

I don't really want to do none. Like its safe and doesn't change anything. I feel like Arts, eventhough I realize that it could backfire on town, could really help too.

if you don't know what any of them do why is one better than the other?

The first of these posts amounts to no conclusion either way. Particularly the "arts could backfire but could also really help" doesn't really show depth in thinking, so I don't really see the need to post it if no real conclusion was drawn?
The second is basically a throw away question (you can check the context yourself).

[Spiffeh]

PeregrineV is my number one town read and I doubt that will ever change.

I got town vibes from Titus, Drixx, Vecna, Akane and Nebby, probably some others I'm forgetting

I don't really have any scum reads other than Nero. A bulk of the players significantly engaging with the Resolution decision seemed pretty town to me.

[Spiffeh]

Spiffeh, going by that, wouldn't it be better for scum!Nero to not post at all?
Like, some people DID get away with that.

With that said I do agree with you and I also like the fact that you're poking Nero right now.

-Nebby

It's very unlikely that all scum would just avoid the phase altogether. Nero had what I feel is the scummiest contribution so far.

[Spiffeh]

I'm null on Nero. I really liked his 453.

What about that post did you like?

[Spiffeh]

I'm not asking you to corroborate it's my town meta.

I guess it's been too long...look at what Yuri did.

Still don't know what you're talking about

[Spiffeh]

Oh now I see

I don't really think that's a scum tell. I self meta a lot and town have called me out on it before.

[Spiffeh]

See 615.

I just liked that he asked him about it.

I don't really think town would be more likely to ask that than scum.

I'd even argue that scum would be more likely to engage with a question like that because it's pretty low risk and makes it seem like they're contributing.

[Spiffeh]

The Deo what is your read progression on my slot?

Ew

[Spiffeh]

Also, you don't think previous experience with a similar mechanic isn't something I should draw from when deciding how to proceed? You can call it fear mongering,

but I think it's weird to jump to a buzzword rather than look at my actual arguments and see if they're plausible.

literally your entire "argument" was don't give scum a roadmap to kills because it imploded in the Thing game.
so what am i supposed to be debating?
IMO, you over-played it

as for the passive-aggressive stuff

Spoiler:

The fact that Titus is not acknowledging the concerns for Sciences that a few of us have raised and keeps harping on "but we could do this with these roles!!!" is concerning.

beeboy why are all the things you are saying so aggressively wrong

felt like they were overly non-comittal potshots at people.

What's your issue with this reasoning? What do you mean by "overplaying"? Yes I said it multiple times and tried to convince people to vote my way. That's what I do when I feel strongly about something.

I don't know how you could view what I said about Titus as "non-committal". I was very much calling her out on why I felt her reasoning for wanting Science was concerning.

The beeboy thing was basically a douchier way of saying I disagreed with pretty much everything he was saying.

[Spiffeh]

Creature is probably town

[Spiffeh]

Micky be my mason partner I promise I aren't no magna
~Maria

pls I have no reason to town read you so we can't be mason partners

[Spiffeh]

plausible i suppose. i don't want to tunnel here.

can you explain the Titus read?..how it looked to me is:

Titus: Let's co-ordiante night actions
Spiffeh: No we lost the last time we did that
Titus: Yeah but we might not this time
Spiffeh: ur scum

i mean, Titus wanting to game night actions is something she does all the time anyway, so why the scumread?

Like Titus mentioned, the huge part you're skipping over is where I gave my reasons why Science benefits scum more and she was seemingly ignoring them. So you either interpreted it incorrectly or you're omitting it on purpose to justify your scum read.

You still haven't answered why basing my argument on a similar game was bad and what you meant by "overplaying" which makes me think you're just throwing out buzz words to make your read sound reasonable.

[Spiffeh]

What do you think of him scumreading me for scumreading Creature?

Are you talking about me?

Because that's not why I'm scum reading you.

[Spiffeh]

Btw reminder not to give any indication of whether you're going for a role today and which role you'd choose.

And when the roles are distributed, don't give any indication of whether you got one or not.

The less scum know about the location of the power roles, the less successful they'll be at neutralizing them.

[Spiffeh]

Creature is probably town

Why?

Granted he's only a town lean. His early posts trying to figure out how the game work seemed genuine and it's my understanding that scum!Creature is more of a lurker and doesn't really offer up any insight unless it's expected of him. I feel that he's been pretty candid in this game so far.

[Spiffeh]

Because people are still talking about what roles they want to choose when they shouldn't be

[Spiffeh]

Spif should prob talk about why he SOLELY scum reading me for that but ignoring Max.

Max's posts didn't really ping me like yours did. I got the vibe he was just uninterested with the Resolution phase which isn't alignment indicative. I do believe his push on me is crap.

Are you scum reading him?

[Spiffeh]

Spif should prob talk about why he SOLELY scum reading me for that but ignoring Max.

Max's posts didn't really ping me like yours did. I got the vibe he was just uninterested with the Resolution phase which isn't alignment indicative. I do believe his push on me is crap.

Are you scum reading him?

Ignore this, I see you are.

[Spiffeh]

I'm more sure on Uzi!town than Vecna!town.

Vecna basically meta cleared Uzi, which really only happens if they are scum together, town together, or if Vecna is scum and Uzi is town. I don't see a world in which Vecna is town legitimately meta clearing Uzi, and Uzi is pulling off this amazing scum game fooling Vecna.

So 2 of the 3 scenarios paint Uzi town, 1 of the 3 paint Vecna town. But of course town is more likely in general. So probabilistically I really like Uzi for town. Plus some of the posts I quoted from Uzi scream town to me, so it's not just a probability-based argument.

[Spiffeh]

Nero's recent posts look better.

VOTE: Maxous

[Spiffeh]

Froggy

I explained why I'm scum reading Maxous now. The post you quoted was in reference to what Max contributed during the draft phase.

Also, I'm not going to drop a scum read because someone I'm suspicious of is also on the wagon. I'm not aiming to catch the whole scum team Day 1 and am well aware at how impossible that would be.

Even then, you've done a few things that make me uncertain so I haven't yet cemented a read on you. So I don't get why you expect me to be discouraged from voting Max.

[Spiffeh]

I'm more sure on Uzi!town than Vecna!town.

Vecna basically meta cleared Uzi, which really only happens if they are scum together, town together, or if Vecna is scum and Uzi is town. I don't see a world in which Vecna is town legitimately meta clearing Uzi, and Uzi is pulling off this amazing scum game fooling Vecna.

So 2 of the 3 scenarios paint Uzi town, 1 of the 3 paint Vecna town. But of course town is more likely in general. So probabilistically I really like Uzi for town. Plus some of the posts I quoted from Uzi scream town to me, so it's not just a probability-based argument.

And please explain to me what is wrong with this

I think it's an unreliable way to get a read. Taking someone's word on someone else's meta isn't something I'm willing to do.

I know you said you liked some of Uzi's posts too but this reasoning doesn't make sense to me coming from you.

[Spiffeh]

My Max read has nothing to do with what Nero thought of him lol

You can go back to my response to Max's initial push to see that I obviously wasn't content with what he had to say.

[Spiffeh]

Why don't you like the Max wagon Uzi?

[Spiffeh]

"Spi" is really not a nickname conducive to my username

[Spiffeh]

gerryoat's insistence that Titus contradicted herself and desire for everyone to comment on it comes across as extremely town to me

Titus I do not buy what you're selling there

I also don't think Maria buddying me or "shading" others is particularly scummy

Literally the whole point of the game is to "shade" people and get them lynched, and I know from the The Thing that she buddies people pretty hard as town (Firebringer, EP, etc.)

[Spiffeh]

A shade is any comment that puts a player in a negative light, doubly so when unwarranted. You've been trying to get me, Spiffeh, Drixx, Creature and A and N to turn on each other for awhile now.

Titus what the fuck

Where did you get this impression

[Spiffeh]

The "turn on each other" part I mean

[Spiffeh]

Still content with my vote on Spiffeh. His Titus read is not good and the vote on me is lol.

HEY MAXOUS:

You still haven't answered why basing my argument on a similar game was bad and what you meant by "overplaying" which makes me think you're just throwing out buzz words to make your read sound reasonable.

^ This was to you, please do this.

Can people town reading Maxous please explain why because I'm about to engage hyper-tunnel-douchebag mode

[Spiffeh]

I think beeboy has a decent chance of being scum.

[Spiffeh]

beeboy is underwhelming me this game so far, nothing specific really

[Spiffeh]

Haha ok, creature rolled town this game for sure

[Spiffeh]

I don't understand what you're asking me here.
Just because role management doesn't work in one game doesn't automatically mean it won't work in every game.
You scumread Titus for this apparently.

Once again, That's not why I scum read her.

The fact that Titus is not acknowledging the concerns for Sciences that a few of us have raised and keeps harping on "but we could do this with these roles!!!" is concerning.

I was concerned by her because she wasn't acknowledging the valid arguments that people had raised against Science.

I don't know how you keep misinterpreting what happened

[Spiffeh]

People in this game need to be more willing to wagon people

VOTE: beeboy

Let's start one here

[Spiffeh]

It's likely that any wagon that gains traction will probably contain someone you're not comfortable with

That doesn't mean you shouldn't take the opportunity to pressure someone that's contributed shit

[Spiffeh]

beeboy is underwhelming me this game so far, nothing specific really

Do you expect great things from beeboy?

I've never played with him so I don't know what the expectations are.

And could you answer this?

In my experience beeboy has never been this laid back as town at least from I remember, but it has been awhile since I've played with him. Musical Mafia is a good example of what I've come to expect from town!beeboy (link: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=65809)

I don't like 1105 where he comes in to respond to something about him without contributing anything else of value. 1169 also gives me scum vibes. Never have I seen town!beeboy hesitate to vote someone. If you look at Musical Mafia he is hyper aggressive and there is an extremely noticeable lack of that drive here.

[Spiffeh]

Frogger instead of positing ridiculous theories why don't you check out Musical Mafia and see if you notice any differences with beeboy's play here

Because you will

[Spiffeh]

I think this is normal beeboy as in like it doesn't seem out of character for him. I've opted to ignore him for now.

Where did you get the impression that this was normal for beeboy? Have you played with him before?

[Spiffeh]

I'd vote A&N but I was waiting on Nero before I actually continued with that.

I cannot emphasize this enough, never have I seen town!beeboy not contribute a vote to a wagon of their scum reads because he was "waiting" on someone else?

His Musical Mafia ISO is littered with calling wagons on his scum reads (namely Friendless Seniors)

This really does not look like his town game.

[Spiffeh]

I'd vote A&N but I was waiting on Nero before I actually continued with that.

MORE MORE MORE MORE MORE

[Spiffeh]

That quote shouldn't be there but I guess it isn't entirely out of place

[Spiffeh]

The wagon that fell apart when as soon as frog!town stopped pushing it.
2 sheeping scum minimum on that wagon

Oh you mean your wagon of 5 people?

Who are those sheeping scum?

[Spiffeh]

@Max I see you are scum reading A&N

I feel they are transparently town

Can you elaborate more on that read?

[Spiffeh]

I think it's an unreliable way to get a read. Taking someone's word on someone else's meta isn't something I'm willing to do.

Spiffeh, you want me to take your word on beeboy's meta?

No actually I gave you a concrete example and asked you to look at it yourself so in no way was I expecting anyone to just take my word for it

[Spiffeh]

Dude, it's noise tunneling. I invented it years ago.

I get you disagree but it doesn't help town in the slightest.

The point is to solve the game, not shade randomly and never resolve anything.

I don't think it makes Maria scum

[Spiffeh]

VOTE: Uzi
~Maria

Can you explain your Uzi scumread here? Because for me the difference between his play here and in PYP was night and day

@Spiff How is this not a concrete example?

I missed this I guess

[Spiffeh]

@Frog What are you trying to get at here anyway?

Yeah I guess I'm being a little hypocritical. I didn't look at PYP to verify Vecna's meta, whereas I KNOW the differences I've cited in beeboy's play exist. So I want people to pay attention to my meta arguments over someone else's.

Even if you feel I contradicted myself here, do you think that makes me more likely to be scum?

PEdit: Oh ok

I'm a hypocritical ass that values my own reads/thoughts over others

There I said it

[Spiffeh]

People I currently don't want to lynch today: Peregrine V, The DEO, A&N, Creature, Sondam, Froggy, Drixx, Vecna, Lil Uzi Vert

I don't really have too many solid scum reads. beeboy and Maxous are pretty much it

Everyone else is null so far so maybe I'll ISO dive a few of them and see where it takes me

[Spiffeh]

Frog why is Yuri scum?

[Spiffeh]

I think Akane still wants Mausoleum.

-Nebby

STOP

[Spiffeh]

No it's not just WIFOM

Role selection discussion just narrows down for scum where the power roles are and where the next batch of roles could likely land

So people need to shut up about their role preferences

[Spiffeh]

I wanted you to vote A&N with me because I am pretty sure I can't achieve a lynch on my own right now.

Everyone needs to know how unlikely it is that this comes from town!beeboy

beeboy is well aware that voting for someone has advantages beyond getting them lynched. He was a strong advocate for wagoning his scum reads to pressure them in the game I linked earlier, Musical Mafia, where he was town. He is well aware that casting votes

So the fact that he doesn't vote a scum read here because "he can't get a lynch on his own" is appalling.

beeboy is NOT town here.

[Spiffeh]

Ok now all of you stop talking about what you're talking about and vote for beeboy

[Spiffeh]

How long ago was Musical Mafia?

Last year

Why?

[Spiffeh]

Frog I see some of your points but beeboy is way more of a slam dunk as far as I'm concerned

[Spiffeh]

The "stop what you're talking about" thing was a joke relax

I read your case, I see your points, but I think beeboy has a better chance of flipping scum so that is who I will be pushing.

[Spiffeh]

@Frogger I am hand waving it

A lot of the things you put in there I'd have to check for myself and I don't feel like doing that right now.

You are welcome to continue pushing Yuri. Competing wagons are extremely helpful early on, especially when one of wagons is on scum. I want people to acknowledge that I am fairly certain that several posts from beeboy would definitely not come from town!him.

So yeah maybe I'll type up a "proper" response to your case later.

[Spiffeh]

To be fair, this is very much a towntell for Titus I think (at least something I know for sure she does as town)

Not acknowledging the arguments of others is a town tell for her?

Why couldn't she do this as scum?

[Spiffeh]

I understand your points about beeboy I'm just asking how long was that game you played with him.

And I said it was last year.

Why do you ask?

[Spiffeh]

To be fair, this is very much a towntell for Titus I think (at least something I know for sure she does as town)

Not acknowledging the arguments of others is a town tell for her?

Why couldn't she do this as scum?

Why is this still a question? I was typing addressing your concerns as you typed that.

Titus I get it, this isn't about you. I'm wondering why Vecna considers this a town tell of yours rather than something that you could do as either alignment.

[Spiffeh]

Just curious as to why you haven't asked him if it might've changed.

Because I'm not giving him the benefit of the doubt.

[Spiffeh]

Uzi how are you reading beeboy?

Because you seem really concerned with how a lot of people are perceiving him. Earlier you said you thought he might be a VI, what gave you that impression?

[Spiffeh]

Not interested in a Bee or Yuri lynch so I'll join the AN wagon unless a Creature one pops up.

Your reads are ass backwards

[Spiffeh]

I agree with Drixx that ooba's only post in the thread was useless Resolution phase shit (after it was already over) and complete crap.

[Spiffeh]

Yuri what are your thoughts on beeboy?

[Spiffeh]

I'd like you to elaborate on which opinions of his you liked.

[Spiffeh]

@Maxous

The wagon that fell apart when as soon as frog!town stopped pushing it.
2 sheeping scum minimum on that wagon

Oh you mean your wagon of 5 people?

Who are those sheeping scum?

@Max I see you are scum reading A&N

I feel they are transparently town

Can you elaborate more on that read?

[Spiffeh]

Scum reads on A&N make literally no sense to me and I don't get why so many people are suspicious of them

[Spiffeh]

Don't have a problem with you attacking lurkers, I have a problem with you wanting to attack lurkers you view as mislynch bait.

How are you able to make the difference?

Like what have they done that makes you think they're going after mislynch bait rather than just pressuring people that aren't posting?

[Spiffeh]

@ssbm_Kyouko who are your scum reads at this moment?

[Spiffeh]

You said 2 sheeping scum

Who is the other

[Spiffeh]

The A&N wagon is awful

Nero Cain'a reads are awful

The fact that beeboy doesn't have the most votes is awful

[Spiffeh]

Which head of Caesar Wills It is posting?

[Spiffeh]

This is sorta how I feel right now.

Yuri

(5):

Lil Uzi Vert

,

The DEO, Akane and Nebby, Vecna

,

Fro99er

Akane and Nebby

(5):

Yuri, Maxous, beeboy, Nero Cain, Albert B. Rampage

beeboy

(4):

ssbm_Kyouko, PeregrineV

,

Spiffeh, Creature

NoticeMeSenpa

i (1):

Elbirn

The DEO

(1):

Sondam

Fro99er

(1):

Leonshade

Sondam

(1):

Drixx

Not Voting (3):

Caesar Wills It, ooba, NoticeMeSenpa

I am townreading literally every player you have colored red.

And I like how everyone on the wagon you're supporting is colored green. Beeboy and ABR have done absolutely nothing worthy of being town read. So explain why you have them in green.

[Spiffeh]

Can we settle on a creature vote? i'm pretty sure everyone has been skeptical of him but no one really trying to wagon him

This is extremely false.

[Spiffeh]

Titus contradicting herself and having foot in mouth moments doesn't really surprise me.

I can see her just get too caught up in pressuring you and making points that conflict with each other.

[Spiffeh]

Nero Cain town reading everyone that agrees with him and scum reading anyone that has directly opposed his suspicions is laughable

[Spiffeh]

I don't understand what you're asking.

[Spiffeh]

If I'm scum reading someone super hard sometimes I can get caught up in the moment and mention things that don't necessarily make sense together

It's fine to raise an eyebrow but it's stupid to disregard how obviously town they've been otherwise

[Spiffeh]

You have scumread 10 people in Day 1 by my count.
You just said you wanted to flash wagon three people who are lurking after less than 2 days(!)
Your fingers are in too many pies and it means you can wagon anybody whenever you want, which is what you have been doing

None of these things are bad early on Day 1

[Spiffeh]

Yeah I feel the same way after reading his interaction with Vecna

[Spiffeh]

Also lol Elbrin.
Beeboy really looks like a mislynch to me tbh

-Nebby

Why?

[Spiffeh]

People are writing beeboy off like he's a VI that doesn't know what he's doing.

READ MUSICAL MAFIA. Here's the game: viewtopic.php?f=56&t=65809

It will take no more than a minute to notice the difference.

He's not a noob. He knows how to pressure people as town and engage them. He's doing none of that here.

Stop giving him the benefit of the doubt.

[Spiffeh]

If beeboy wants to get in here and do anything remotely town I welcome him too.

[Spiffeh]

to*

That typo is unforgivable sorry

[Spiffeh]

Instead of crapping on the meta read, give me reasons why you're town reading him outside of meta

Beyond "my scum reads are voting him"

What did he do that makes you think he's town?

[Spiffeh]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=69868

I mean compared to my most recent game were I straight up refused to participate and got lynched idk I feel like my play isn't something new.
And it's not like I ever play like this as scum and am perfectly fine being literally like half the posts as scum.

It's not your activity that I have a problem with.

I'd vote A&N but I was waiting on Nero before I actually continued with that.

I have trouble reconciling the fact that you have to wait on someone before pressuring a scum read with what I've known from town!beeboy. Could you elaborate on why you wanted to wait for Nero before voting A&N?

[Spiffeh]

which is why I am still pretty sure he is town despite wanting to ml me here.

Who are you referring to here?

[Spiffeh]

I have trouble reconciling the fact that you have to wait on someone before pressuring a scum read with what I've known from town!beeboy. Could you elaborate on why you wanted to wait for Nero before voting A&N?

Cause every time I do that it either leads to me tunneling or me degrading the thread so I just decided it would be better for me to back off until I was either more confident in my reads or could actually get a Lynch through without derailing the game (like I did to day 1 in musical mafia)

I don't think simply casting a vote for a scum read would lead to either of these things.

[Spiffeh]

@beeboy do you have any scum reads other than A&N?

[Spiffeh]

VOTE: ssbm_Kyouko

[Spiffeh]

^ no

[Spiffeh]

The no was at beeboy

What is the advantage of the tree stump claiming?

[Spiffeh]

It takes all town utility of having a tree stump in the first place.

[Spiffeh]

VOTE: ssbm_Kyouko

Why not Yuri here?

Math is yelling beeboy is town at me, yet I am not sold either way. Math says I should TR beeboy after his readwall due to matching reads.

Yuri is being sufficiently pressured whereas I ssbm_Kyouko is being largely overlooked.

And I am still not town reading beeboy.

[Spiffeh]

Although Yuri is trying to lerk out her wagon now :<

This is bullshit

It's been less than 24 hours since they last posted and the thread's been open for three days. They have almost 100 posts last I checked. This statement is sketchy af and looks like you're trying to make vague justification for hopping to a Yuri wagon later on.

[Spiffeh]

beeboy town reads are still unacceptable

[Spiffeh]

Spiff why are you ignoring Yuri stuff

Yuri is being pressured enough, there are other people that deserve more scrutiny than them that are being overlooked.

Like ssbm_Kyouko

Idk why you're putting so much focus on this, let me do my thing

[Spiffeh]

We could just lynch Spiffy, maybe it might clear Yuri?

LOL

[Spiffeh]

Yes I've ignored Yuri so far

I still haven't checked Fro99er's case, I'm sure that will upset him. Reading Yuri's posts independent of that case doesn't really make me feel any type of way so I'm focusing my effort on people that I think are scummy that aren't really in the lime light (like beeboy).

This shouldn't be news to anyone that this is how I play.

I am extremely tempted to continue ignoring Yuri out of spite.

[Spiffeh]

Not really opposed to Kyouko wagon.

We should be lynching in the top 3 current wagons imo.

There is still plenty of Day left so idk why you want us to limit our options already.

[Spiffeh]

People read your beeboy case and I discussed it with Mathblade and even tried a poorly executed reaction test to support solving things, yet you cannot even be bothered to engage your townread Frogger? What happened to the guy who thought it was an issue that we didn't address your concerns while we were typing them out?

Fair enough

I will get to it eventually

[Spiffeh]

Thought we were friends. Now you're just being an ass.

We are friends

I am more likely to act like an ass to my friends than people I don't care about

[Spiffeh]

Dropping me as a town read for not talking about Yuri is stupid and you should feel bad

[Spiffeh]

I voted ssbm_Kyouko because a lot of their posts comment on fringe shit that doesn't matter and don't really walk away with any worthwhile conclusions. One such post that stuck out to me was this one:

The impression I got from reading that conversation is you bullied him into a corner and it was really not cool but if you're convinced on your meta read I guess that's fine. I'm really uncomfortable with how easily Vecna and frogger shifted onto yuri and how they both gave their reasons as bussing to antagonize The DEO hydra. I think Frogger had a real case earlier about Yuri appeasing Titus or something and I guess Vecna said he liked that case though.

He devotes a lot of words and ultimately walks away with a non-opinion.

I also have an issue with how he has been parked on beeboy all day. Not in the read itself, but the fact that he's done no pressuring or trying to convince people to vote his way. Even when I went hard after beeboy, ssbm didn't say a thing and continued to make irrelevant posts that don't even look like he's trying to develop reads.

[Spiffeh]

OK FROG I'LL LOOK AT IT NOW

[Spiffeh]

3) In 931 Yuri wants to placate Titus, and it appears he doesn't want to ruffle titus' feathers. It's super appeasing type stuff like scum not wanting to stand out. Yuri says in 940 that yes he is trying to placate Titus because Titus is probtown pushing them. However, later on in 1248 Yuri sorts Uzi as town and Yuri says he doesn't care about Uzi's push on him. It's a contradiction, so Yuri needs to explain why Titus push did matter but Uzi push didn't.

This is a good point. I can see scum!Yuri noticing that Titus is an influential, obvtown player that would be good to get on his soon and agree that he looks overly apologetic and really worried about stepping on her toes.

[Spiffeh]

5) Yuri says they have issues with A+N in 952 and when pressed on what the issue is by A+N in 953 it turns out that it's the same prior issue from 941 and 943. Reading those two posts, we see it's because Yuri doesn't like A+N is pressing Sondam about whether Sondam thought titus slipped or contradicted herself. That's perfectly legitimate reason to pressure Sondam, to find out if they meant contradict or slip (or both, as it turns out). Because contradict and slip can have different meanings. It's a bullshit issue to have with A+N. (to read more about it, read my 1275 which explains it better than I just did here)

I don't think it's that weird for Yuri to have an issue with this. What I think is more compelling is the fact that earlier on, Yuri has a town read on A&N yet once they arguing the read morphs into a scum read.

[Spiffeh]

The most compelling point in the case to me is that Yuri ends up voting A&N who was once one of his town reads for pretty shitty reasons, without really engaging with people he was supposedly scum reading like Creature or Maxous when there was a wealth of discussion about both of them.

And yeah there's a considerable lack of gamesolving and pretty much all of Yuri's content is the back and forth with A&N or defending themselves.

[Spiffeh]

I still feel that beeboy is a superior lynch atm and there's plenty of Day left so

[Spiffeh]

I am not here for Caesar's posting style and would really appreciate if they would post normally

Big words are hard

[Spiffeh]

Also if Aeronaut lurks the game out it's a scum claim and I will be tunneling that slot with reckless abandon.

[Spiffeh]

Drixx is taking the treestump.
There is no reason for anyone else to take it

Drixx has done jack shit so no he is not entitled to the treestump.

[Spiffeh]

The tree stump should claim so they can be investigated o3o

This is a huge fucking waste of potential town resources.

A big draw of treestump is that scum basically waste a kill on them. So outing the treestump makes it pretty useless in that regard.

Any cop-like ability should cop whoever they want to. I am really not concerned with having the treestump be confirmed town, their play will make that clear eventually.

Treestump should play to draw a nightkill and cop should play to find scum.

[Spiffeh]

We could just lynch Spiffy, maybe it might clear Yuri?

Why do you bring this up when you haven't really mentioned me all day.

Are you scum reading me?

[Spiffeh]

Pushing someone because of them misreading is a he-said she-said that is fruitless to base an entire read off.

[Spiffeh]

if anybody but Drixx takes the treestump then i will personally grab a vig later and shoot them

is that a good enough reason for everybody?

Drixx is one of the last people I would want to have as a treestump given his activity in this game so far.

Bullying others who may have wanted that role out of it is ridiculous given what Drixx has provided.

[Spiffeh]

I now decree Maxous town reads to be unacceptable

And so it shall be

[Spiffeh]

Then you should probably reevaluate.

[Spiffeh]

Or maybe

Just maybe

I view other people as scum being overlooked and want them to be pressured?

Attack the points I'm making if you think I'm making other counter wagons just to save Yuri, don't just discredit everything I do with that stupid assumption.

That's shit play

[Spiffeh]

The DEO Can you guys talk to each other outside of the thread please

This game is long enough already

[Spiffeh]

This is why hydrae need to not be a thing

[Spiffeh]

Or we could just lynch Spiffy.

I asked you earlier if you were scum reading me and you ignored me. Now I see that you are.

Please elaborate.

[Spiffeh]

@The DEO There's no reason you shouldn't be able to get in sync in a hydra PT that doesn't clog up the thread.

Even if you are positive Yuri is scum, there are still more. I am NOT positive that Yuri is scum and am engaging/pressuring other people in an effort to get reads on them. And it's immensely frustrating that you, among others, are writing off my scum reads just because I haven't focused entirely on Yuri.

The game has been going on for three days and like 90% of the posts in the game have come from the same 8-10 people. There's no reason to not be more expansive with scumhunting.

[Spiffeh]

@The DEO There's no reason you shouldn't be able to get in sync in a hydra PT that doesn't clog up the thread.

Even if you are positive Yuri is scum, there are still more. I am NOT positive that Yuri is scum and am engaging/pressuring other people in an effort to get reads on them. And it's immensely frustrating that you, among others, are writing off my scum reads just because I haven't focused entirely on Yuri.

The game has been going on for three days and like 90% of the posts in the game have come from the same 8-10 people. There's no reason to not be more expansive with scumhunting.

[Spiffeh]

We could just lynch Spiffy, maybe it might clear Yuri?

Why do you bring this up when you haven't really mentioned me all day.

Are you scum reading me?

Why would I've had to mention you to want to lynch you?

That's not what I was fucking saying.

Lynching me as a means to clear Yuri is one of the most idiotic things I've read in the game so far (as Frogger pointed out) so this coming from someone who hasn't mentioned me at all doesn't make any sense.

Now explain why you're scum reading me.

[Spiffeh]

We could just lynch Spiffy, maybe it might clear Yuri?

Why do you bring this up when you haven't really mentioned me all day.

Are you scum reading me?

Why would I've had to mention you to want to lynch you?

That's not what I was fucking saying.

Lynching me as a means to clear Yuri is one of the most idiotic things I've read in the game so far (as Frogger pointed out) so this coming from someone who hasn't mentioned me at all doesn't make any sense.

Now explain why you're scum reading me.

It's not idiotic when you take into account that your read on Bee is mostly based off of meta and the other ones you have had have been pretty bad as well.

So you seem overly concerned with the thought of me scum reading you.

There are several points I have made about beeboy that have nothing to do with meta. Which other reads do you think are "bad"?

And please get off your high horse. I am asking you to elaborate on a read that come out of nowhere and you had yet to justify. It being on me doesn't make a difference.

[Spiffeh]

I'm just gonna stop caring as much that will make me feel better

[Spiffeh]

But it all stems from that meta read to be honest. Max and Kyouko push were pretty bad.

And I'm asking you why are you so concerned. You don't seem to be sweating everyone else as hard who has shown doubt about you.

The fact that my read "stems" from meta doesn't really matter. Why is that "bad"? What about my pushes on Max and Kyouko were bad? I want specifics.

I am giving you a hard time because your post about flipping me to clear Yuri was absolute shit and I'm trying to figure out if it's scum capitalizing on the general anti-Spiffy attitude or a genuine read.

[Spiffeh]

At the moment I'm inclined to believe you're just misguided town because nothing else from your ISO really stands out to me but if you keep saying shit like "Oh let's just lynch Spiffy" without justifying it we're gonna have issues

[Spiffeh]

VOTE: Yuri

As much as I want to be stubborn and contrarian I'm town reading everyone on the wagon to at least some degree and Yuri does have some real problems.

I still think people should stop giving people the benefit of the doubt (namely beeboy)

It's really weird to me that so many people spoke out against my beeboy push either by saying I was pushing a counter wagon to scum or saying my meta reasons don't hold. Beeboy still has a lot wrong with his play and even if you just disagree with my reasons, nothing he has done so far looks town.

[Spiffeh]

And on some dimension the issues I have with beeboy are hard to articulate and more in my gut than anything else.

I feel like he's just going through the motions. He notices that I'm pushing a wagon hardcore and hops in the thread to say some town-sounding things and leaves again. There's no level of engagement with town reads or effort to convince people like Titus or myself or anyone else that A&N is scum. In my experience town!beeboy is all over his scum reads and makes an effort to get his town reads to see what he's saying.

Maybe that's outdated meta but it doesn't sit right with me and nothing he's contributed so far makes me think that's the case.

[Spiffeh]

Wrong. An unkillable IC is a huge gain for a one shot cop role.

Town plus town

It forces scum to either a)kill the treestump freeing the cop or b) kill the stonehenge and leave an unkillable IC.

Town cop, scum pyramids

The comments of the pyramids yield a lot and if scum pyramids is not Drixx, we basically clear Drixx.

Either setup scum gooned themselves for wifom and could get wrecked on balance.

Scum henge

Scum have to confirm the treestump, or confirm a living player. Neither setup is good. Doubly so if they derp and confirm Zeus.

I think a wasted scum kill + a cop result on someone else is more valuable than an IC who can post but is still dead. Especially since if the game isn't multiball and the treestump is nk'd it's safe to assume they are town. And a scum!treestump trying to manipulate us is really not something I'm concerned about since scum will try to avoid dying anyway and I think a scum!treestump would be easy to see through.

[Spiffeh]

A treestump is good in the right hands. I was a strong advocate for Tammy to get it in The Thing because having her around the whole game would have kept me grounded and I recognized that.

Not only is there not a "Tammy" in this game, it's different here because we have to expend more resources (Stonehenge) to get the dead treestump confirmed, where I think that role could be better utilized to clear someone who is a question mark or if we're lucky clear someone later in the game when there are less places for scum to hide.

[Spiffeh]

Yeah well I don't really feel the same way (no offense to Drixx intended).

[Spiffeh]

Those inquiring after the health of my good and righteous Co-Emperor need not worry, He is well. Julius, occasionally and crudely called Aeronaut by irreverent fools, has elected to remain secluded and permit Me to take the lead in treating with this uncouth assemblage for now. Though the palace couriers have been bringing the minutes of the Senate's proceedings to His chamber door, they tell Me that they appear unopened. Worry not, for My Divine Wisdom is all you require to prosper. Julius will make an appearance on His schedule, not at the whim of His lessers.

I am literally going to assume you are scum until Aeronaut towns it up and proves me otherwise

[Spiffeh]

Like Spiffy was going hard for Bee and basically was screaming for everyone to join him and end the day early and now he wants us to take our foot off the gas.

Lol this is just blatantly untrue

Yes I wanted people to look at what I was seeing and wagon in him

That doesn't mean I wanted the day to end early

[Spiffeh]

Why is notice not voting alongside us if he's so certain im bussing Yuri here?

X

[Spiffeh]

Part of me hopes Yuri flips town so MathBlade gets a reality check

[Spiffeh]

Also Maria I have a pretty strong town read on A&N. Can you explain why you're scum reading them?

[Spiffeh]

Mathblade

If we're talking about counter wagons to Yuri then look no further than the A&N wagon which has slowly burned into a viable wagon despite there being no valid reason given to suspect them.

[Spiffeh]

I also have an extremely hard time seeing how it's not Vecna/LUV/Frogger/Spiffeh/Yuri.

Literally never post again

[Spiffeh]

I also have an extremely hard time seeing how it's not Vecna/LUV/Frogger/Spiffeh/Yuri.

Literally never post again

This whole post is hot garbage

You go into it assuming that these five players are scum and try to fit every action they take into that narrative

[Spiffeh]

Nice of you all to finally notice

[Spiffeh]

Uh oh Mathblade our scum team is hard pushing a wagon on obvtown!beeboy what are you gonna do about it!?!?!?

[Spiffeh]

MUAHAHAHAHAHAHA MY EVIL PLAN IS COMING TO FRUITION

[Spiffeh]

whoops wrong thread mb

[Spiffeh]

Tbh I kinda don't like Yuri jumping on the most convenient counter wagon to himself and suddenly being convinced beeboy is scum despite town reading him early on.

What changed?

Also I need to wait a bit so my jump away from bussing my buddy doesn't look TOOOOOO sketchy, right guys?

[Spiffeh]

I appreciate people finally considering scum!beeboy as a possiblity now

Even if it doesn't happen today I'm glad the seed has been planted

[Spiffeh]

If Yuri flips scum you guys are fucking morons if you lynch me solely based on me "ignoring" them while pushing others I thought were scum.

I hope he/she flips town solely so I don't have to deal with that bullshit

[Spiffeh]

One way for everyone to achieve that goal is to stop pushing bullshit arguments and connections you're assuming exist just because I didn't bend to your will and acknowledge Yuri and vote them IMMEDIATELY.

[Spiffeh]

I realize I'm being insufferable and a little toxic but the universal assumption that I'm scumbuddies with Yuri is so fucking ridiculous and it's been belabored over and over again to the point where people are just taking it as fact and ignoring how obviously town I've been outside of that.

@Titus what post

[Spiffeh]

There's probably at least 2 scum within the lurkers

That is {ABR, Leonshade, Caesar Wills It, ooba, ssbm_Kyouko}

Aeroaut not posting in Caesar Wills It is a huge red flag and they need to be taken care of very soon if he continues not participating.

Still think Maxous could be scum, I don't really see a reason why people are town reading that slot. beeboy too obviously. I already know what biting quips I will say tomorrow in the event that Yuri flips town but all things considered I do believe he has a decent chance of flipping scum.

[Spiffeh]

As for town reads, extremely strong on The DEO, Peregrine, Creature, and Fro99er. Drixx, A&N, Sondam, and Uzi seem pretty town too but not as strong.

Vecna I was town reading pretty hard from their attitude in the Resolution Phase but nothing after that gave me extreme town vibes so I'm only leaning town there. Same with Nero Cain, and NoticeMeSenpai because their frustration for being pushed for some bullshit reason (dw I can relate) reads as genuine. Elbirn sounds tonally town but I haven't read his posts close enough to really commit there one way or another.

I think that's everyone?

I realize I did this before reading the last 15 pages thoroughly but oh well

[Spiffeh]

Hey, I am going to try something new ish to have you reach me. I think you know where I am at. Do you care to try guided questions to steer me toward where you are?

I guess if you want?

[Spiffeh]

Who are you scum reading and why?

[Spiffeh]

Shush Creature is town

[Spiffeh]

@davesaz what games have you misread me in?

[Spiffeh]

VOTE: beeboy

Guys this is a good point to cite in the "Yuri Spiffeh connection case"

I just made the beeboy wagon viable again in an effort to save my scumbuddy Yuri

Go nuts

[Spiffeh]

Yuri's recent posts look town to me and anyone that isn't acknowledging that is just too committed to their tunnel

[Spiffeh]

@davesaz what games have you misread me in?

[Spiffeh]

Yuri's recent posts look town to me and anyone that isn't acknowledging that is just too committed to their tunnel

Several of their posts give me the impression that they know they're being mislynched and they want to make sure their scum reads don't go overlooked (i.e Vecna).

beeboy's hop to Yuri was so fucking bad that Yuri voting for them in return doesn't really bother me.

[Spiffeh]

Spiff I thought you wanted to pressure ssbm

As far as I know ssbm hasn't posted since my "case" on them and it's useless to pressure a slot that is completely absent

What is this even supposed to mean anyway? From your eyes I wasn't pressuring ssbm while parked on the Yuri wagon so why is this something you're only bringing up now?

[Spiffeh]

Frog are you really still scum reading Yuri after their recent posts?

Like I can understand "no change" but I think it's weird that people are still trying to pass off their recent content as scummy (AHEM BEEBOY).

[Spiffeh]

beeboy is my largest scum read and I want him lynched

That is why

[Spiffeh]

Spiffy probably isn't town.

You probably need to stop posting.

[Spiffeh]

You know why LUV suspects you? You are putting your own opinion above your townreads rather than picking a mutual read.

You were in The Thing, Titus.

Welcome to my town game. This shouldn't be a surprise to you.

And either way, I resent that. I listened to the Yuri case and agreed with some of the points. I understand the suspicion there. But Yuri's recent posts come across as pretty town to me and beeboy has always been my preference so I'm voting there instead.

Don't try and guilt trip me because I don't have the utmost faith in my town reads. I never do. I don't care if that makes me a selfish player, it's just how I am.

[Spiffeh]

I see all these "null reads" on Kyouko.
But there's not enough information to read him!
Complete rubbish.
these "null reads" are first on my list for scum buddies.

Yo I see a bunch of complaining but not enough of the doing things.
Doing thing with it.

-Nebby

Stop posting shit like this.

You've posted nothing productive in recent memory so you have no room to talk.

[Spiffeh]

I didn't make a town bloc

I never agreed to one

I've been endgamed many times by players in a town bloc I had created so there's no way I'm committing to one on Day 1.

[Spiffeh]

Because after expressing multiple scum reads and basically having the post amount to "fuck it I'll do anything" is just really weird to me. Like in the current state of the game I just don't understand why you would ever consider something like that unless you were scum seeking survivability especially when the A&N Lynch was actually really viable (and a scum read of Yuri's) starting some random af vanity wagon just seems so out of place for a town mind set.

This doesn't make sense to me.

If Yuri was just looking to survive then I find it way more likely that they would keep their vote on the viable A&N wagon instead of vanity wagoning Vecna. Yuri looks like town who doesn't want his scum reads getting away after he's mislynched.

[Spiffeh]

And to be clear, beeboy voting Yuri isn't scummy

What's scummy is the bullshit and blanket justification he attaches to the vote that made no sense when he explained further.

[Spiffeh]

Not doing that.

We can deal with lurkers Day 2.

[Spiffeh]

Not doing that.

We can deal with lurkers Day 2.

Says the guy who wanted to deal with a lurker in ssbm

I pressured them when they weren't lurking

Ever since I voted them they fell off the face of the Earth

So stop