Mini 1875: Pine's Death Trap Post Game - Town win!

[Grendel]

I'm disappointed that Gamma can't play...

[Grendel]

@RC

Its kind of surreal playing with you again. Remember, You were in my first game here.

Fortunately I'm not the same mess of sobbing emotional appeals that I used to be.

Anyways, How are you?

[Grendel]

I was stressing pretty hard, but it was still a win, and it probably wouldn't of happened without you.

Victory by accident lol.

[Grendel]

I have no idea what is happening but I guess it's RVS so I'll just vote someone.

VOTE: Akarin

You're very self aware here. Sort of like, "This is what I'm supposed to be doing, right guys?"

You should relax.

Is this your first game here since that newbie I played with you?

Welcome Grendel. You're there aren't you? Come play with us.

VOTE: Grendel

Oh cool!...

what are we playing again?

VOTE: Grendel

I just want out of RVS

hmm, Somebody sounds stressed.

[Grendel]

Because you were the leading wagon then you voted a potential counter wagon. It looked to me like you were trying to get some pressure off yourself.

I find trs easier imo

How strong are you early game town hunting skills?

Are they a strong immediate thing, or like a lean that grows over time?

[Grendel]

hmm, Somebody sounds stressed.

And that's bad because?

Then you agree that he looked stressed from your pov?

[Grendel]

TR no one. not even yourself

But if you can't even trust yourself then how am I supposed to trust you? D:

@Alisae

Because you were the leading wagon then you voted a potential counter wagon. It looked to me like you were trying to get some pressure off yourself.

I responded to Matt directly. Please don't make me repeat the song and dance you we were putting me through in the other game where you kept skipping the things I said. Its really annoying.

B) I was asking if you agreed hence the "?"

C) It could be.

Yup.

So what do you think of the ppl on your wagon?

[Grendel]

Because you were the leading wagon then you voted a potential counter wagon. It looked to me like you were trying to get some pressure off yourself.

I guess I can see where you are coming from. I don't really get stressed when I'm at L-2 much less L-4(when I voted you) in RVS. From my POV, I just wanted to try to do something to get the game moving along.

Hence why RVS is a largely ineffective way to start a game. Experienced players just don't react badly to RVS pressure.

So, have you gotten any interesting observations yet, or are you still waiting for something to happen?

Pre-edit
ugh, pointy things violating my neck reign are like a phobia of mine.

I have a feeling that most these VC's are gonna make me cringe

[Grendel]

Three, and I thought there was more.

I have a couple observations, but I think I'll hold off for a bit. See if anything interesting transpires there first.

Is Gerry around rn?

Pre-edit

That's interesting...

[Grendel]

Happy with my vote on Grendel right now. Call it gut.

I feel like you are sharing highlights for the sake of posting. I don't believe they are genuine concerns / suspicions. Where's your vote right now?

Floating up in the air like an anvil waiting to humorously smash somebodies skull in.

[Grendel]

Is Gerry around rn?

hi

Hey, it get your anti RVS shtick and all, but why did you wait until Matt was wagoned?

I seemed to recall you going off as soon as the votes start coming down in other games.

Why aren't you pushing more people more towards your explicitly-non RVS vote?

[Grendel]

15 pages in less then twenty four hours. Whoa.

There is such a thing as a game getting too bloated guys. -.-

I'm not caught up yet, just wanted to take a break from RC vs Gerry.

I'm probably voting Gerry since I already had a mild suspicion on his slot.

[Grendel]

Actually,

VOTE: Gerryoat

I could vote Viafam too I think

[Grendel]

I don't understand the purpose of my wagon.

For instance I noticed a lack of "Grendel is scum comments".

That'd suggest that my wagon is supposed to be for pressure. Whats off though is that given that there are other players out that that have garnered actual suspicion my wagon just seems like... an excuse? The very same people on my wagon have proclaimed other players as scummy, but opted to pressure vote me instead. So, why are ppl so afraid to vote their scum reads?

I seem to recall Kiser being the only one actually suspicious of my slot. I don't recall the same for the rest. :/

Not to mention that there has been zero resistance to my wagon.

[Grendel]

If I had to put money on it Id say RC is town, I dont wanna lynch Gerry or RC today tho

Why do you not want to lynch Gerry? He seems a perfectly fine lynch option.

I don't really see the Keyser love, but neither do I have an issue with the play from that slot so...I kinda tend to expect him to be town and at least one of the fanboi's to be scum sheeping him.
I see RC as town.
I'd be happy to lynch Gerry.
I also am not overly fond of Alisae or Vifam and would consider them secondary scum reads at this stage.
I don't share the Rauth dislike, he's a clear newb so pointing out a newbtown or newbscum issue with him is a bit like telling me grass is green. IIoA ahoy!

In the spirit of the purpose of this alt;

Vote: Grendel

Gives piece meal statements about Gerry being a good wagon then votes Grendel b/c, " lol, Its my flavor"

Has a null read on Keyser. Which means that Sheep is sheeping a null read, while ignoring a wagon started by a town read (RC) on a slot he thinks is a good lynch (Gerry).

Huh.

[Grendel]

Key is town. Grendel is at like L-1 i think lol. I mean i think he's different rn compared to his town game, but give him time to respond at least we are only 18 pages in

I take up the position that the game state needs.

In games with an unproductive roster I'm much more aggressive. In games with hyper posters I'm more laid back.

Plus I was too tired the other day to do one of my elaborate opening posts w/ reaction test.

My play here has been very different from 1830, and I'm honestly surprised you haven't been pushing that point harder if you were truly scum reading me.

[Grendel]

It is alarming how fast your wagon popped up, I didn't even realize you were at L1

Sheep's vote was the turning point for my wagon's pick up.

Yay/Nay?

[Grendel]

Tbh I just voted for you cuz I felt like sheeping

You felt like sheeping 17 pages into the game but didn't feel like it at that start.

Why?

[Grendel]

The above within the concept that Gerry is scum, naturally.

I really dislike how they keep batting about their potential scum reads, meanwhile voting somebody who isn't even mentioned as a tertiary scum read.

It doesn't make any sense.

[Grendel]

Grendel kinda hit on it in 157. It's very LAMIST. Like you're making sure the town knows that you're just doing what townies are supposed to do.

VOTE: Grendel

fyi I hate it when ppl scratch my chin while still being perfectly happy to vote me.

Its a conflict of tone, and makes your original thoughts look like artificial attempts at buddying from my pov

great opening post from coopsheep

Enlighten me behind the genius of Coopsheep's opening.

[Grendel]

Key is town. Grendel is at like L-1 i think lol. I mean i think he's different rn compared to his town game, but give him time to respond at least we are only 18 pages in

I take up the position that the game state needs.

In games with an unproductive roster I'm much more aggressive. In games with hyper posters I'm more laid back.

Plus I was too tired the other day to do one of my elaborate opening posts w/ reaction test.

My play here has been very different from 1830, and I'm honestly surprised you haven't been pushing that point harder if you were truly scum reading me.

Well, it's because RC has been acting like a manbaby. I did point out that your game was different, but how do you expect me to scumread you very hard. I wanted to give you more time

Gee thanks,

for being so uncharacteristically chivalrous towards your 2nd highest scum read.

It is alarming how fast your wagon popped up, I didn't even realize you were at L1

Sheep's vote was the turning point for my wagon's pick up.

Yay/Nay?

I thought him and jarjar were the only ones voting you

Its probably a good idea to read the game before you vote. Seems somebody of your experience would know that.

You think that jar jar is town yea? What did you think of sheep?

Tbh I just voted for you cuz I felt like sheeping

You felt like sheeping 17 pages into the game but didn't feel like it at that start.

Why?

I figured Rau was town by then and just wanted to apply pressure somewhere else

Was this a spoken read transition?

If it was I don't recall it.

PRE-EDIT

Oh, This wasn't what I expected.

GErry on Viafam, and Viafam on JArjar

[Grendel]

Gee thanks,

for being so uncharacteristically chivalrous towards your 2nd highest scum read.

it's only ~20 pages in? I'm not gonna wanna quick lynch someone over first brush reads

idk I just feel like you are tip toeing around me rn.

I know you're capable of being agro as either alignment, and appeasing as either alignment, but something feels wrong here.

[Grendel]

I think sheep is town

Is there a specific reason, or is it gut?

[Grendel]

@Keyser

That's the reason I'm reading over the game again. I don't know how to handle a claim like that, I'm trying to figure out if I should trust RC's claim or not.

For me the logic breaks down something like this;

1. RC is lying and plans to admit it - that makes the action a reaction test, and alignment neutral, I tend to analyze the claimed reaction scumhunting afterwards.

2. RC is lying and does not plan to admit it - that would make RC scum and a bad player, or just a bad player. I, personally, don't think RC is a bad player.

3. RC is telling the truth, or at least some variant of it - that would make RC town, or that would make RC a scum PR who is accepting on Day 1 that they are not really planning to make it till lylo with their team.

I see option 2 as highly unlikely.
Option 1 should be treated like option 3 until RC plans to reveal - so option 1 is meaningless.
Option 3 tends o suggest that the best move is to not lynch RC, and analyze again tomorrow with more info.

Until I get some other info, I'm going with Option 3 and presuming town.
What are your thoughts on my breakdown and does it differ from your thoughts?

I don't see how the above points would be hard for scum to come to a conclusion too. I don't see the above points putting him in a position that would be sub optimal for scum.

The ability to form a logical argument doesn't equate to town.

What did you see here that standed out as, "Oh this sounds like something town would say", to you?

[Grendel]

tbh there are a lot of players I might need to look at. LIke I haven't checked out most of my null reads.

Keyser Söze, RadiantCowbells,

Alisae, mattblackguy,

Rautherdir, Lil Uzi Vert, Akarin, JarJarDrinks, Transcend,

Vifam, Cooperative Sheep,

gerryoat

I can elaborate on most my reads per request.

Right now I'm feeling like calling it a night on my end.

[Grendel]

I think Transcend might be scum and that scum might have a role cop.

why do you say scum might have a rolecop?

I think he is saying that because if scum had a role cop who copped RC then they know that RC was a power role.

Which would make sense given that Trans is defending RC while simultaneously dismissing him.

@RC

That's what you're saying right?

[Grendel]

It weird, because I did think that RC said it was a reaction test yesterday.

Maybe I read something someone else said

[Grendel]

@Keyser

Even though I won't be joining the wagon I must admit it is the optimum info lynch based on the interactions so far this game.

No early hammer gentlemen.

I'd like to hear some of your conclusions.

You seemed to have some thoughts pending the flip.

[Grendel]

Posting to say a few things:
I can't access a computer right now.
Gerry's reaction to RC's claim now makes sense.
I also now believe RC is town.
Transcend, Vifam, you didn't even let Akarin post. I mean seriously, you could have at least waited a day or so at L-1 to get a claim from Gerry.

I'm narrowing down my lynch pool to Transcend and Vifam today, barring an extremely good argument for lynching RC.

...

Would a Scum!Ruath be so ballzy as to utilize the strategy a scum Grendel employed in his last game with Ruath?

[Grendel]

Now taking out my townreads/leans

1 in:
Akarin
Rautherdir

2 in:
Cooperative Sheep
Keyser Soze
Vifam

Why are you suspicious of Keyser?

[Grendel]

This is old now but I still feel it merits a response.

I can see the Grendel wagon faltering, I tend to feel it's faltering due to his burst of activity, which doesn't fully appease me as I'd like to see him respond to some of my thoughts, and it really was just a quick burst of activity rather than a quick burst of town seeming activity. All he did was pretty much attack the people attacking him, which is alignment null in my opinion, so I'm quite content to leave my own vote there and see if/how he responds to my questions.

Spoiler:

I don't understand the purpose of my wagon.

For instance I noticed a lack of "Grendel is scum comments".

That'd suggest that my wagon is supposed to be for pressure. Whats off though is that given that there are other players out that that have garnered actual suspicion my wagon just seems like... an excuse? The very same people on my wagon have proclaimed other players as scummy, but opted to pressure vote me instead. So, why are ppl so afraid to vote their scum reads?

I seem to recall Kiser being the only one actually suspicious of my slot. I don't recall the same for the rest. :/

Not to mention that there has been zero resistance to my wagon.

The purpose for your wagon would be pressure and to see what happens - also, it's not like I town read you, and I do town read someone voting you. Is it really that strange of a wagon to you? This feels like a very normal strategy and not something surprising or unusual.

I agree there has been very little resistance to your wagon - I'm not sure I care to come all the way along the primrose path you'd like to have laid out in that regard, especially with your choice of the other hot topic wagon option for your vote, but I do agree with the statement.

[/quote]

Calling me garrulous was... gratuitous

I think pressure wagons aren’t all there made out to be. When the majority has no logic and/or reason behind their vote the wagoned person knows they aren’t going to be lynched. Or if they were lynched then it was done in poor taste.

I was originally interested in Gerry before RC vs Gerry occurred. I generally like to have open reasoning out for critiques before voting. Saying that i voted my counter wagon, _just_ because it was my counter wagon is unfair. Also people had reservations about Gerry, and i probably could have done as well pushing Ruath instead.

If I had to put money on it Id say RC is town, I dont wanna lynch Gerry or RC today tho

Why do you not want to lynch Gerry? He seems a perfectly fine lynch option.

I don't really see the Keyser love, but neither do I have an issue with the play from that slot so...I

kinda tend to expect him to be town

and at least one of the fanboi's to be scum sheeping him.
I see RC as town.
I'd be happy to lynch Gerry.
I also am not overly fond of Alisae or Vifam and would consider them secondary scum reads at this stage.
I don't share the Rauth dislike, he's a clear newb so pointing out a newbtown or newbscum issue with him is a bit like telling me grass is green. IIoA ahoy!

In the spirit of the purpose of this alt;

Vote: Grendel

Gives piece meal statements about Gerry being a good wagon then votes Grendel b/c, " lol, Its my flavor"

Has a null read on Keyser. Which means that Sheep is sheeping a null read, while ignoring a wagon started by a town read (RC) on a slot he thinks is a good lynch (Gerry).

Huh.

Bolded something you might have missed - hope that helps.
With the revelation that I stated a town read on Keyser - how does that affect/not affect your stance as softly presented here?

Prefacing it with “I Don’t get the strong town reads”, along with the usage of both “Kinda tend”, made me think the “town read” was weak enough to assume that he was null. You hamming it up to be a strong town read looks like an exaggeration. Did you go on to reference Seyser as more then kinda sorta town read before I made the above posts?

Sheep's vote was the turning point for my wagon's pick up.

Yay/Nay?

Yay - it's not even a question, it was the obvious tip point. Now, from that observation, what conclusion do you draw?

Well you were in my scum reads weren’t you?

I thought you were scum trying move attention away from Gerry!scum. Trying to get a new wagon up before people started viewing Gerry as suspicious and voting him, vs when they were just verbalising that Gerry was sort of scummy.

The above within the concept that Gerry is scum, naturally.

I really dislike how they keep batting about their potential scum reads, meanwhile voting somebody who isn't even mentioned as a tertiary scum read.

It doesn't make any sense.

Why doesn't it make sense? I am unaware of having a pre defined meta of aggro tunnel on Day 1, so exploring other lynch options seems perfectly reasonable.
If I had said 'I suspect Grendel because my strongest town read is voting him, so I'll sheep' would that have abolished your stated issue? (because...well, I kinda did say exactly that) and if it doesn't abolish your issue, why not?

No, you did not make clear that you preferred Keyser over RC. I was sure that RC was the stronger read between the two, and why i thought it was scummy for you to sheep the one that looked like a null read. IF it was clear that you had Keyser as your top town read then I would have not have been as critical of you.

I’m not sure where a stand on you, currently. I can’t help but feel that you have been manipulative. That behind your woolly façade there is some real scum intent. But my biggest reason for suspecting you is defunct with Gerry flipping town. Right now I can’t find enough to substantiate my gut feeling. I don't know if that means you are town, or if there is something I’m missing.

[Grendel]

Ill answer this too

I'm probably voting Gerry since I already had a mild suspicion on his slot.

What do you mean by "already" ? Like you suspected him before RC started to push him? If so, what were u suspicious about?

My initial reasons were that he shut down the Mattblk wagon along with Viafam. He also discouraged people from developing early town reads, which is a scum tell on my home site.

I wanted to engage him and matt, before i voted, becuase i didn’t consider the above reasons to be enough for a serious vote.

Later i thought he was scum because of how he was handling my slot. I thought that he would be pushing me harder as town then he was, as well as how quickly he came to the conclusion i was town. It felt rushed and unnatural when i was a scum read of his for most the game.

[Grendel]

@ALL

I forgot to mention this earlier, but my posting habits are sparser Mon/Thes/Weds/Thursday. I only have about two hours of time I can allot to mafia on those days.

I can post much more Friday, and Saturday. Sundays are iffy.

If a bunch of pages spawn in an 24 hour period during the week I won't be doing much outside of catch up duty.

PSA over

Pre EDIT

@Transend

Quote and elaborate on them plz

[Grendel]

Grendel wagon yesterday sucked and it contained {Keyser, matt, Sheep, JarJar, Vifam}

I bet at least 2 scum were here.

I think that if the wagon was started by a scum Keyser/MattBlk (they wouldn't both be scum) it wouldn't have taken off. Mianly because there was little evidence to be pitted against me, and town would have noticed that. Thus those two are more likely town then scum.

Sheep's vote was what jump started the wagon. JarJar sheeped sheep. Viafam is easily the worst because they weren't paying attention/didn't really care.

Yours wasn't much better then theirs if I recall correctly.

[Grendel]

I don't really want to, he's probably the person I'd run up last in that pool.

If you're hesitant to lynch a scum read then maybe your subcounous is saying that they aren't scum yea?

[Grendel]

VOTE: Viafam

[Grendel]

I'm having a hard time grasping my read on sheep.

Do you have tactile reasons to vote there?

Jarjar is surely town

Why, and to what extent?

[Grendel]

@LUV

You were online and responding to other games earlier, but didn't even drop by to greet me.

Wheres the love LUV?

@Somebody with Previous experience with VIfam

Does Vifam make emotional appeals much as scum?

@RC

I think that Matt is town based off of yesterdays wagon construction (On me).

[Grendel]

Hmm,

you disagree with that point spefically, or is there something else you are looking at?

[Grendel]

Hmm,

you disagree with that point spefically, or is there something else you are looking at?

@RC

[Grendel]

I was originally interested in Gerry before RC vs Gerry occurred. I generally like to have open reasoning out for critiques before voting. Saying that i voted my counter wagon, _just_ because it was my counter wagon is unfair. Also people had reservations about Gerry, and i probably could have done as well pushing Ruath instead.

You didn't make those stances clear at the time, and the vote did look survivalistic to me. Clearly you'd disagree, but from someone splitting hairs about "how townie did Sheep really state Keyser" as a basis to suspect me - I'm curious why you wanted me to presume things you didn't even remotely imply. Double standard?

ehh, I decided to start off subtle this game with my interactions, in hopes of catching my suspects off guard. I had no idea that the next time I get the opportunity to talk it'd be like fifteen pages later with Gerry getting heavily scrutinized.

I think now that I pointed it out it should be clear that I was suspecting Gerry early with my posts, You disagree?

Prefacing it with “I Don’t get the strong town reads”, along with the usage of both “Kinda tend”, made me think the “town read” was weak enough to assume that he was null. You hamming it up to be a strong town read looks like an exaggeration. Did you go on to reference Seyser as more then kinda sorta town read before I made the above posts?

Your previous issue with me was that I didn't sheep a town read but sheeped someone I didn't town read.
Now that you're aware I at least stated Keyser as my second strongest town read - your issue is that I didn't sheep a potentially stronger town read. You also made up that I called it a strong town read, i just said I town read him - which my words support.
Goal posts, they be a movin'.

I guess there isn't much else to say here other then I really think you were making it out to be more of a read then it was.

But in fairness I can't really attack you for it, as he was a town read for you in some facet.

Well you were in my scum reads weren’t you?

Why do you think scum would hop onto the wagon opportunistically *before* it hit a tipping point? To be opportunistic doesn't the hop have to be after the tipping point?

I'm saying that Your vote came at a pivotal moment where Gerry was under pressure, and it looked like you were directing pressure onto me. Granted this point doesn't apply since Gerry it flipped now.

I’m not sure where a stand on you, currently. I can’t help but feel that you have been manipulative.

Why?
I have literally not acheived any of my stated lynch goals yet in this game - what am I manipulating? Unless I manipulated you into voting Gerry somehow...?

I feel like you're trying to do more to prove me dumb rather then prove me scum. If that makes sense.

[Grendel]

When did I make an emotional appeal

Fear of Doc or a status quo kill would be my working theory.
What's yours?

Honestly I think my reads are just probably shit and I fucked up tbh

This is the first time I genuinely feel like I fucked things up in a game Im actually kind of annoyed with myself now that Im actually dealing with this in D2

These looked like emotional appeals while I was reading. I couldn't tell if the frusteration was town or not though.

[Grendel]

I'm annoyed because I was frantically trying to catch up before you hammered and I was paying attention and trying to get reads. But I don't remember all of that now because I never had a chance to post it.

And if I were scum, why would I come in here now and just jump on some random wagon like you're saying I'm doing? Wouldn't I have had like 3 days to plan out some good way to enter the game and not immediately get suspected?

Your argument doesn't make any sense.

The second point is just straight bad, b/c to acknowledge that you would do "x", or "y" as scum rather then "z" means that you are self aware enough to do just that to subvert what you'd do as scum.

The only instance I'd buy that is if what a player did really _would_ hurt their chances to win as scum, or if somebody else came to that conclusion.

Posting earlier then you'd perceive scum!you doing is not that.

[Grendel]

UNVOTE:

I hate to admit it, but I'm struggling to get reads I'm confident with this game.

I should look at some of the players I've been putting off

[Grendel]

I was scumreading you before you hammered. The hammer just seals it.

What were your thoughts on a Scum!Viafam before the hammer?

[Grendel]

@Rautherdir

Can you show me how you've sorted players thus far in the game.

I know you are think that its scum Viafam/Transend. And that you are town reading RC.

What were your other reads?

[Grendel]

I understand what you're saying RC. You're going for the mislynch on me, and night kill on JarJar, so you can easily coast to victory.

Weren't you town reading RC earlier?

It seems like you went into D2 town reading him.

When did that change?

[Grendel]

{Alisae,Grendel}
{RC,Keyser,Sheep}
{Vifam}
{Gerry,JarJar}

I'm fine with a Gerry lynch today, but I don't think 464 should ever come from any non-newbie town player.

VOTE: JarJar

Which is why I'm more confident on my read of you and Grendel than a few others.

Why were you town reading me?

I usually remember when someone town reads me, but for some reason seeing this surprised me.

Also your Jar jar read. You seemed sure he was scum yesterday, but now its like he is the shining hero who is defeating evil RC for you. Like you reads coming into today seem to have flipped completely.

Like why is RC scum instead of town but wrong?

[Grendel]

Why is Keyser a strong townread? I can see him as scum.

Explain this beyond, "He still had his RVS vote out"

Surly there is more to this read then that alone.

[Grendel]

I want to town read Luv. He's kind of reflected some of my unspoken thoughts on the game state thus far this game, and I think that is more likely to come from town then scum.

Hopefully.

[Grendel]

@Keyser

I think one of the things that concerns me about Viafam that keeps me coming back is that anti town behavior has been slowly creeping into site meta. At least from other games I've played in.

I don't feel comfortable dismissing somebody as town for blatant anti-town behavior anymore.

At the moment I think that their self oriented frustration was town looking...

Vifam

Vifam's scummy/anti-town actions made me sick to the core. I wanted Lucille to kiss his skull with her barbed-wire teeth.
Scum do not play like that. I bet the majority of players right now would consider a Vifam policy-lynch as a pro-town move.

As scum you must set yourself up for the long game. If you're going to bury yourself you at least make sure your scum partner is the one who drives the dagger into your back.

In this scenario, everyone has justifiable reason to lynch Vifam.
There is no scum-gain.
No one can win any town-points from his lynch.
Was his purpose only to kill 1 townie for 1 scum?

He wasn't even a mass-scum read so he could have just continued his low-key trajectory and stayed off the grid.

Now he's put a target on his head (inviting both day and night attention).

I do think most this points have ground. Especially the ones I bolded.

I didn't like the move on Vifam by mattblk.

What else... I guess that's all.

preedit
Hello RC, and Viafam.

It was weird having the thread to myself almost the whole evening.

[Grendel]

RC, Your enthusiasm is affecting my voting hand lol.

Evening transend!

You said you were town reading Mattblk, why was that?

[Grendel]

Nah I think Rauth is town still

I'm not very sure. I played with him once as town!Ruath and he seemed much more engaged, and invested in interacting with others.

THis game he comes across as much more guarded, and self centered.

Because i think he's town

I don't articulate myself very well

Sorry

Are you one of those ppl that form all their reads based off personal tells.

Its hard working with ppl like that you kno?

[Grendel]

I don't know what personal tells are but basically i read people's thought processes and attempt to decide if it's genuine or fake.

Personal tell= a tell you made up

I meant like when a player has a read that they don't explain because they fear explaining it will make it less effective in future.

You seemed like that kind of player tbh

Sorta

What's the case on matt tho

Personally I didn't like the shift of his reads going into today, and the short unexplained piecemeal reads. They seemed arbitrary due to the lack of follow up on his part, and how defensive he was when getting called out. Namely Matts view on Kesyer comes to mind.

I also didn't see a reason to town read him beyond where he sat on my wagon D1.

I had some pending thoughts, but wanted to engage him a bit first.

[Grendel]

Four people are coming up on prods in the next eight hour. Let's not slack our activity, folks!

I got overloaded with illustration/graphic design projects for school this week.

I'm gonna be

V/la until the 9th of February.

V/LA noted

[Grendel]

I think now that I pointed it out it should be clear that I was suspecting Gerry early with my posts, You disagree?

Yeah, I do. You offered some general stabs at him in a soft/jokey manner. You did the same to many other people - if you suspected him at best I would be able to create a list of about five or six names you suspected equally. The vote did feel out of nowhere and without support.

I suspected Gerry, and Mattblk that was all.

I questioned Transcend to know how seriously to take his early town reads. Because he was dropping a lot of town reads. If he is a player that takes those reads seriously then I'd have that down in my notes for future ref.

I engaged Ruath, and Alisae due to both of them having presence in other recent games I was in. I also responded to Keyser with a snarky comment b/c I didn't appreciate his assertion that I wasn't raising legit points.

I’m not sure where a stand on you, currently. I can’t help but feel that you have been manipulative.

Why?
I have literally not acheived any of my stated lynch goals yet in this game - what am I manipulating? Unless I manipulated you into voting Gerry somehow...?

I feel like you're trying to do more to prove me dumb rather then prove me scum. If that makes sense.

No, I'm not with you on that - I just asked why you think I'm manipulative. Do you feel I'm trying to manipulate you/make you look dumb by asking why you think I'm manipulative? I think when you make the accusation you ought to be able to talk about it to some degree - or at least tell me it's just a gut vibe or something.

Still owe 38+

[/quote]

Manipulative wasn't the correct word. I was trying to nail down what was bugging me, and I think it is that you are more interested in proving me wrong then proving I'm scum. The later is a reassessment of the first.

I'd sum it up as a gut feeling. I could be wrong, as is the risk of listening to the heart. Eventually when I have time I'll look for examples in our past exchanges. Maybe I can better explain it then.

What is 38+?

[Grendel]

And Grendel, last game I ended up basically being confirmed town day 2. I was also making a complex move to try and catch scum off guard which required me to keep active.

Idk, you don't have to be expressly active to be open with your reads, and thought processes.

reads like these for example:

Reads!

Transcend is scum.

Vifam is null/scum.

LUV is null/slight scum.

Akarin is null.

Keyser is null.

Matt is null.

I(Rautherdir) am not reading myself.

JJD is null.

Grendel is null/slight town.

CoopSheep is null/town.

RC is town PR.


Night Kill Analysis
I don't know about everyone else, but I personally thought Alisae was scum when Night 1 started. The only conclusion I can draw is that scum were trying to find and kill other town PRs.

Matt's wagon. I never really understood how it happened, but after a lookover I came to the conclusion that its possible that he is scum, but I don't see it as likely.

You were releasing reads on every slot on the roster in the last game throughout D1.

I'm pretty sure that this is the first time you've done it this game. As short as yesterday was... you didn't seem that into sorting the rest of the roster.

[Grendel]

I'm annoyed because I was frantically trying to catch up before you hammered and I was paying attention and trying to get reads. But I don't remember all of that now because I never had a chance to post it.

And if I were scum, why would I come in here now and just jump on some random wagon like you're saying I'm doing? Wouldn't I have had like 3 days to plan out some good way to enter the game and not immediately get suspected?

Your argument doesn't make any sense.

The second point is just straight bad, b/c to acknowledge that you would do "x", or "y" as scum rather then "z" means that you are self aware enough to do just that to subvert what you'd do as scum.

The only instance I'd buy that is if what a player did really _would_ hurt their chances to win as scum, or if somebody else came to that conclusion.

Posting earlier then you'd perceive scum!you doing is not that.

That's not at all what I said. I wasn't saying I posted earlier than I would have as scum, I'm saying that if my reasoning is so poorly thought out that it's going to immediately get a wagon on me, why wouldn't I have run that by my scumbuddies during the night instead of coming in with what Vifam is claiming is both poor, lazy reasoning and a plot to get her lynched.

"You'd have known that as town you would come in here and vote for Vifam in such a way that people would want to vote for you, so you did that as scum," isn't very good reasoning. Especially considering the only person I've played with before in this game is Alisae and they're dead.

Well, do you plan out things that well in advance as scum? Why not plan things out in advance as town too?

You're basically throwing shade on your own argument here. Saying that what you said/pushed is too ill-informed, not planed, for scum to do it seems to fall exactly into what I was originally saying. In that you seem perfectly aware that it isn't a great play for scum, therefore you could do it with that intention. So I don't really see pushing Viafam when scum wouldn't push them

because planning

as a convincing argument.

"You'd have known that as town you would come in here and vote for Vifam in such a way that people would want to vote for you, so you did that as scum," isn't very good reasoning.

Um, pretty sure this wasn't what I was saying. I'm refer more to the idea that you wouldn't enter that day x or y way as scum, rends the assertion null. It doesn't mean that you were doing something that you knew would blow up, you might not have expected the reaction you got at all.

[Grendel]

Hopefully I didn't miss anybody lol.

See you in a few!

[Grendel]

Hey guys, I'll be fully up and running tomorrow.

Thankfully it doesn't look like I have a lot of catching up to do.

Though I suppose that's a bit of a two edged sword when I think about it.

[Grendel]

Idk why but this game has been weird.

I think that most the players on the roster have dropped a town tell or two at some point. :/

VOTE: Ruath

He really doesn't look like the Ruath of 1765, not very satisfied with any of his responses to me either.

[Grendel]

Rautherdir

- scum. Just playing the noob card way too hard. So many LAMIST posts.

The slot could newb!scum, but newb!town makes more sense to me because I think scum!Rautherdir would attempt to manufacture more scumreads than he has. The rest could swing either way.

Are you speaking from experience?

I've always found newbie scum more likely to

not

saturate the thread with lots of scum reads. Or well, demonstrate a hesitancy to generate reads on other players in general.

[Grendel]

Can anyone with previous experience with Transcend tell me which alignment he prefers playing as?

I promise this is relevant.

[Grendel]

I want to town read Luv. He's kind of reflected some of my unspoken thoughts on the game state thus far this game, and I think that is more likely to come from town then scum.

Hopefully.

Although I like several points LUV has brought up so far this game, I just noticed how little he has actually posted this game. That is bothersome.

I was expecting/hoping for more from him since the above post, but he really has done much. :/

[Grendel]

Why Rauth?

He called you town/town PR as a fact. Zero paranoia or doubt.

Scum would have less reason to doubt a town power role claiming then town would.

The sureness that Ruath sees RC as a bullet proof town looks scummy to me.

Are you speaking from experience?

I've always found newbie scum more likely to

not

saturate the thread with lots of scum reads. Or well, demonstrate a hesitancy to generate reads on other players in general.

Indirect experience and the word of experience players, yeah. The idea is that they feel nervous about not having scumreads because it might seem like they aren't scumhunting and therefore aren't Town. Hesitancy to generate reads is for sure a part of it, albeit potentially more just a newbie thing than a newb!scum thing?

Depends, I've played with many newb town that aren't hesitant to display their reads, And fewer newb scum can do the same as newb town there.

[Grendel]

@RC

Can anyone with previous experience with Transcend tell me which alignment he prefers playing as?

I promise this is relevant.

[Grendel]

I'm probably voting Gerry since I already had a mild suspicion on his slot.

Don't believe you ever answered JJD asking you why/how you had a mild suspicion on gerry.

I did answer that:

Ill answer this too

I'm probably voting Gerry since I already had a mild suspicion on his slot.

What do you mean by "already" ? Like you suspected him before RC started to push him? If so, what were u suspicious about?

My initial reasons were that he shut down the Mattblk wagon along with Viafam. He also discouraged people from developing early town reads, which is a scum tell on my home site.

I wanted to engage him and matt, before i voted, becuase i didn’t consider the above reasons to be enough for a serious vote.

Later i thought he was scum because of how he was handling my slot. I thought that he would be pushing me harder as town then he was, as well as how quickly he came to the conclusion i was town. It felt rushed and unnatural when i was a scum read of his for most the game.

Would a Scum!Ruath be so ballzy as to utilize the strategy a scum Grendel employed in his last game with Ruath?

What does this mean?

THe first thing I did as scum when I subbed into the game that Ruath was playing in was narrow my lynch pool to the two most popular wagons.

The first thing Ruath did D2 was narrow his lynch pool down to Viafam, and Transcend. The two most scrutinized players going into D2.

Separate from that, but also notably bad was Ruath believing the RC is town, but was willing to lynch RC if the case put against him was "good enough".

I don't see 780 coming from scum.

Why not?

[Grendel]

@RC

Can anyone with previous experience with Transcend tell me which alignment he prefers playing as?

I promise this is relevant.

scum.

Thank you.

This probably means that Transend is town here. He really didn't seemed too concerned, or worked up over the prospect of getting lynched. Not much more then a flippant, "lol I'm getting lynched?". The lack of care at the end is more likely to come from somebody who rolled the less preferred alignment, ei town in this instance.

Unless it turns out that Transend is always like this. I don't really have time to meta other games tho.

[Grendel]

I am gonna pull a Yume and just lurk until people stop pushing on my slot.

Not doing anything more of note until there's no votes on me or I have already been hammered.

Why are you being so immature?

I'm disappointed with how you are perfectly content to trash a game then walk away once you get flack for it.

I mean, I actually came into this game with a pretty high opinion of you...

[Grendel]

Idk it's not just this game I just am having serious difficulties playing this game.

Transcend slot was prob town. You're town. Keyster is town. I'm town. I'm sorry that I fucked up the game with the cop lynch but I was not the one who actually quickhammered the town cop.

Maybe I am overreacting.

I was worried that this was leading to a rage quit on your part. Which could of potienaly killed my investment with the game.

Pre edit

Out of those six?

Vifam

JarJarDrinks
Cooperative Sheep
LUV

Mattblack
Rautheredir

I haven't run any hypothetical scum teams. While I have some strong town reads, most of my other reads are shifting all over the place. Outside of Rauth, and Matt, I'm not really confidant.

[Grendel]

I don't townread the slot but

Either RC is way worse that I thought at playing town (and for someone that sure loves to stroke his ego, and gloat on how great he is I find that hard to believe), or he's scum. Seriously the fact that RC played with me last game yet is calling me scum is laughable if he actually is town.

puts him no longer at the bottom of my scumpile.

Can you explain why this caused you to temporally take Matt out of your lynch pool?

[Grendel]

@JarJar

Spoiler:

Keyser

- Town. Even if I didn't have meta w/ him, I'd say he's playing an incredibly pro-town game. Meta seals it. This is his town play.

Cooperative Sheep

- Town. Doesn't have that many posts but the ones that do are full of good content. Makes alot of good points that I agree w/ and is solidly scumhunting.

mattblackguy

- townlean. He had a good explaination for what I thought was scummy and he's pushing RC.

Nancy

- townlean. Her posts so far have been good enough to negate my bad feelings about transcend.

Lil Uzi Vert

- Null. Need more content. I've had trouble reading Uzi in the past and he hasn't posted nearly enough for me to get any type of real read

Grendel

- null slightly scummy. Grendel doesn't seem to say or do much. There's nothing overtly scummy but I get the impression he's being extra carefull w/ his posts.

Akarin

- slight scumlean. I feel like alot of her questions directed @ me are designed to get me to scumread Matt and/or townread RC. Agree w/ her vif and rauth reads though.

Rautherdir

- scum. Just playing the noob card way too hard. So many LAMIST posts.

Vifam

- Scum. Have already posted about how he tried to imply that one of RC/Gerry was scum and then backtracked. The derphammer is self-explanatorily bad.

RadiantCowbells

- Obvious Scum. Reasons already posted.

How would your reads transition depending on what RC flipped?

Like "If RC is town then x", "If RC scum then y"?

[Grendel]

So you think that you his making a purposely obtuse push?

I think the one think that stuck out to me about JarJar, was that he wasn't backing down. I actually thought that was town like.

Is he usually more open as town?

[Grendel]

But is he usually prone to narrowing everything down to a single thingifer?

Is he usually willing to compromise?

[Grendel]

So like he found something that works and he is promoting it as much a possible. Sounds like something that wouldn't nesssesserly come with scum motives.

Is it his interactions w/ Keyser in conjunction with the bullet points that make it a reason to scum read him?

Preedit

I actually didn't realize he was on trans.

[Grendel]

I think that you're missing my point. I think it's possible that he's just repeating the bullet points because he doesn't actually have a scumread on me.
I think that if he were town his scumread on me would be more elegant and thought out ala Nancy who has a more coherent but still wrong read of my slot.

I think I get what you are saying

I went back to where JarJar moved his vote over to Transend. This was his poir post addressing you.

I promise you you sitting there and pushing one me makes me play a ridiculous amount worse.

this sounds ATE and makes me want to push more.

I'm doing my catchup and am gonna post my thoughts. If by the time I'm all caught up, I don't think there's any real chance you're getting lynched today (which as of 3 pages ago, seems to be the case), I'll resign myself to the fact that you're gonna live @ least 1 more day and will start trying to figure out who my 2nd lynch choice for today is.

He did say that he realized you were no longer viable, and if I were in his position as town I would probably make similar move, ei *compromise compromise compromise*

If I were scum there I think I could have stayed, or left.

Spoiler:

quote="In post 986, JarJarDrinks"]

Still think Transcend is very scummy.

Yeah. Especially how he ignored that post of mine after going on and on about how he wanted someone to case matt:

Sorta

What's the case on matt tho

Is there no actual case on the dude

Unless I'm given a case that could negate my theory then i probably won't waver my read.

[/quote]

Unless I'm given a case that could negate my theory then i probably won't waver my read.

Lol, here's his theory:

I feel it's mostly just gut like i really can't explain this one, but everything about this guy screams "mislynch!"

I do think the fact that it only took a whopping two posts of JarJar quoting Transcend's bad posting before he felt like moving onto that slot was gross though.

I should look back to see how far that read goes.

Interesting side point

I like the cut of your jib.

I think this is a point against Co-opxJarJar team. Usually don't see scum praise a buddy for joining them on a wagon.

[Grendel]

Matt's a mislynch.

WTF how can you be so sure of Matt AND RC??

Like I might agree that matt is a mislynch. But that's cause I scumread RC.

Like @ least RC is voting for matt. Cause if RC actualy is town, it make's complete sense that he's scumreading Matt.

Cause like look @ this first post of the day from Matt:

VOTE: Vifam

RC, why didn't you reveal it was just a reaction test, and you weren't actually the cop yesterday?

It doesn't really make sense that his first reaction to Gerrys flip is that RC was reaction testing. Like shouldn't he have considered that RC was scum that got caught fakeclaiming? Especially considering that he soon starting pushing RC-scum soon after.

RC scum still makes more sense. But Town RC/Town Matt makes no sense.

I didn't recheck much of D1, as his reads shifted a lot going into D2.

This was the only time he addressed Tran's play before deciding RC wasn't viable. It doesn't look so much as a scum read as a "what R U Doin" reaction. I guess that if I read in-between the lines it could be JarJar speculating that its TransxRC scum team.

Pre-edit

Still think Ruath is a better lynch.

[Grendel]

Since the list is paused could tell me why Akarin is such a strong town read for you?

I haven't looked through heir posts in a while, but I never saw anything that bumped her out of null for me.

[Grendel]

One of your reasons for scum reading RC was the premature BP cliam.

Do you really think it makes more sense for scum to (fake) claim earlier then town?

Its no denying it was bad play, but it seems your twisting bad play to be scum there.

[Grendel]

I am gonna pull a Yume and just lurk until people stop pushing on my slot.

Not doing anything more of note until there's no votes on me or I have already been hammered.

also this is obviously ATE bullshit. Evidence by the fact that soon after this post he started doing things of note.

Well I mean, I did pressure him to stay proactive for my benefit.

Were you ignoring what I said?

Pre edit
oh ditto

[Grendel]

Uh in the case of having rolled bulletproof I think getting a fake cop claim out is a very pro-town action because it makes you likely to eat nightkills.

See, I think this makes a lot of sense JarJar.

Like RC's play looks a lot more like botched town play then scum play fmpov.

[Grendel]

UNVOTE:

I wish ppl wouldn't act intentionally scummy when they roll a pr. Its frustrating to think you've cuaght scum only to find out they were a pr scumming it up. :/

Ahhhh well, sorry Ruath.

[Grendel]

Grendel you don't like RC's arguments for JJD being scum?

I had trouble understanding how some of arguments pointed to Jarjar being scum. I'm not the brightest guy.

Outside of RC's thoughts I didn't like the speed that his reads transferred once his saw that RC wasn't viable.

And more recently him calling RC's pick up in activity contradictory to RC's "AtE bs" really rubbed me the wrong way.

At the moment Jar Jar is null-scum.

[Grendel]

@Ruath

I'm narrowing down my lynch pool to Transcend and Vifam today, barring an extremely good argument for lynching RC.

Why did you say this?

[Grendel]

WHo were your other town reads Vifam?

I look forward to JarJar's and RC's next move.

I'm interested in seeing where Nancy goes too.

Hoping to sort you this weekend LUV If anyone has concrete reads on the following 3 players please share:

LUV
Mattblack
JarJar


My JarJar read is a weird one - I feel like he's town as per his town meta but I still don't trust him.

I had put out some reasons for my Mattblk scum read. Tonight I think I'll go back and flesh that out.

Is there a big difference between Town, and scum Jar Jar?

Pre edit
Afternoon Matt.

What exactly is the order of strength in your lynch pool?

PrePre edit
dang ninja sheep

[Grendel]

Grendel actually looks slightly more town over the last few pages, though his 'why do town PR's act scummy!?!' reaction seems awkward, especially if he was one of the ones pushing on Rauth for being too sure about RC's claim. I'm too lazy to go back and look right now, if he wasn't, I'll call him null to me now, if he was he's a pure and clear scum methinks.

Yes, one of the reasons I was pushing Ruath was because he seemed to know the RC was a BP vs thinking he was. Meanwhile how he said he'd support a RC lynch if the case was good enough.

Not sure why you believe that me sighing about intentionally scummy pr play is relevant here.

[Grendel]

@Ruath

I'm narrowing down my lynch pool to Transcend and Vifam today, barring an extremely good argument for lynching RC.

Why did you say this?

To get a reaction. I wanted to see who would lead a wagon on RC, so I decided at that point to make it seem like I could be convinced that RC was scum. As for narrowing down the pool, I learned last game it can be anti-town and I didn't want to appear town...

So were you expecting me to not call you out on that? Or was that what you were hoping for?

I can understand the prospect of reaction testing, but it looked really bad before your claim. Like, don't openly town read somebody you claim to be willing to lynch plz

[Grendel]

@Grendel - the issues is the point of calling Rauth scum for buying into RC's claim yet also immediately buying into Rauth's claim when you, theoretically, suspect him. It's not a bonfire of hypocrisy, but it's at least a flame.

When I looked back over his play I think it lined up pretty well.

The biggest exception being how he opened his D2 post. But he did explain it, and I'm inclined to believe him.

Also, its pretty rare for a new player to fake claim so early as scum. I know enough to know that if a newbie claimed something with low pressure then they are very likely telling the truth.

[Grendel]

UGH. Are you fucking kidding me.

He was NEVER going to be lynched. I was pushing that fucking wagon for reactions. Whatever.

Grendel is scum to me right now. I don't see him genuinely trying to sort alignments in that whole exchange with RC. JJD is scum and one of LUV/matt are scum. Game is pretty much solved imo.

VOTE: JJD

Why do ppl keep saying that I lack sincerity with my questions?

Its an easy way to make me look scummy, meanwhile not something I can actually argue because arguing tone gets abstract really fast.

I also don't understand why you are overlooking that all my potential scum buddies are in my lynch pool. Are you just assuming that I'd be prepared to lynch my whole team? Or are you not taking everything into consideration here?

Pre-edit

I'm happy with Jar Jar or LUV

still think Viafam is town.

[Grendel]

I think I'd start with Jar Jar over LUV. I was gonna check out Luv first to be sure, but I can always check him out later.

VOTE: JarJarDrinks

[Grendel]

Hey, i'm not fully caught up yet.

irl has left me pretty distracted from this game.

I'll try to be more useful in a couple days. :/

[Grendel]

Lol, I've been abysmal at keeping up with this game.

Maybe I should just stick to subbing into games with lurk sack rosters from here on out.

Anycase I'm currently caught up.

NowLetMeSee...

[Grendel]

It was his exchange with RC where he gave me the impression that he didn't care about sorting alignments. His posts could be pretty easily faked imo, he hasn't done much to actually advance the game at all and he's just been blending a lot. He hasn't taken stances. Idk maybe I'm just being pigheaded.

In a situation where all my strongest town reads are heading the game state, meanwhile I’m not super confidant on most of my scum reads... my play becomes much more passive. Why should I be all loud with my opinion if there are several town looking players that want the microphone instead? If I were in a game with inactive posters and no solid town block I’d be much more aggressive.

You can interpret things anyway you like, but the narrative you’re reading into is fiction. I’ve been vocally insecure about my scum reads over a lot of the game. So speaking reasonably, I see no harm in asking a strong tr for reassurance on their read when I’m still figuring out my own. I wasn’t trying to pull RC away from anybody, and if that’s what you got out of that interaction then I suggest rereading.

I'm honestly baffled that this is really the crux of the case. I kept thinking there was something more you elaborated about given the strength of your read. But a repetition of this is all you've offered.

[Grendel]

@Nancy

Why did you maintain me as second in line scum read yesterday, then instead of voting me today you bumped Mattblk up to your primary sr?

I had a strong tr on Transend, but your read progression looks like linkage fmpov, and later it'll look like a back pocket read to everybody else.

The way you keep bouncing between sheeping RC, and Fo99er is gross too. Their at odds with each other, and moving to support one then the other is stretching the contentions between them.

[Grendel]

matt why is Grendel a hard TR for you?

I already said this before... I don't see any scum motivation in his play at all. Almost all of his posts is him townposting. It's all genuine too. Not sure how else I can say this. Can you actually quote some things that make Grendel scum?

Can you quote things that make me town Mattblk?

I'm among your strongest town reads. Yet, your whole case is that "My gut says Grendel is town" with no context. Unless you count something as vague as "town posting" without quotes to be context.

That's not helpful, and looks fake.

[Grendel]

My scum dream team would be:

{JarJar, Mattblk, Sheep}

Unfortunately though I seem to recall them to all be on the same wagon at some point. Depending on context it could hurt this team as a possibility.

[Grendel]

Are your reads always this fluid?

You're also talking to me like you know I'm town. :/

Like, you are making me paranoid nancy.

[Grendel]

I mean I hate being scum read, but I'm not like upset at you or anything.

I don't get why the basis of such a strong scum read comes from something subjective with no hard logic to beef it up.

Especially when you were finding hard reasons to scum read other players. So its not like you've established yourself to be a guts only kinda player.

[Grendel]

My scum dream team would be:

{JarJar, Mattblk, Sheep}

Unfortunately though I seem to recall them to all be on the same wagon at some point. Depending on context it could hurt this team as a possibility.

Eh, they were all on my rvs wagon.

Way to make everything about myself.

I guess it wouldn't have been a big deal if they didn't vote as a block (all three where next to each other on the wagon). Pretty sure scum would spread out, or at least not neighbor each other. idk, maybe it being a rvs wagon would discount this.

JarJar also sheeped the sheep later too. This is not normal behavior. Could be that Sheep intended to do that. Mmm... naw that's a stretch I think.

But if not sheep then who?

[Grendel]

I think that town Fo99er is more likely then scum fro99er.

Subbing into a game because he thought that another player was scum and wanted to wreak them sounds like something I'd do as town. Whereas I wouldn't bother if I subbed into a scum slot.

@anybody who knows

How big a busser is Fro9?

[Grendel]

@RC

If you want to hunt for a scum busser wouldn't it be frugal to evaluate player's previous bussing habits first?

[Grendel]

So Mattblk claims jail keeper? That's actually really interesting!

See the last mini I was in was:

Cop, back up cop,

and a

jail keeper

with

two town aligned ascetics

to soft counter the cop(s). Scum was

two goons

, and a

Neocop

.

This set up:

Cop, Backup cop, jail keeper

, and

BP

.

That sounds too strong. At least for an all goon team.

Scum role blocker doesn't work well with jail keeper in a closed set up due to priority issues.

Scum don't have a strongman because that defeats the whole purpose of town's BP in theory, and in practice RC wouldn't be alive today.

Having trouble thinking of other scum powers that could mesh with jail keeper that aren't contrary to the rest of town's power.

[Grendel]

Actually yeah, some kind of investigative would make sense.

What else do you think about the claim RC?

[Grendel]

Scum role blocker doesn't work well with jail keeper in a closed set up due to priority issues.

Scum roleblocker can stop both jailkeeper protecting, and the cops. I don't understand what you mean by priority issues exactly.

Historically speaking its uncommon for role blockers, and jail keepers being together in mini normals.

By priority I mean who role blocks who if they were to role block each other.

[Grendel]

Fro99er, you've been saying that your lynch would clear LUV right?

Do you mean mechanically, or it is just your opinion?

[Grendel]

Sheep just posted.

Anyway, I'm not interested in lynching you Fro99er.

[Grendel]

I don't think we lynch MBG. can we just lynch LUV or something

So you believe his claim?

[Grendel]

I almost want to gamble and say that he is the scum rb. Since role blocking Ruath as scum makes sense. And the over all distribution of town power also makes the jk claim tough to shallow.

Unless the remaining two scum are buff.

How strong is a full BP considered to be in mini normal?

[Grendel]

can we just lynch LUV or something

No.

Because when he flips town you'll just accuse me of being scum who knew he was town

I can't win either way.

Either I'm scum who knew he was town or I'm his scumbuddy if he flips scum.

Just lynch me

Like if Fro99er is scum he is doing a major disservice to his buddy with this suicidal behavior. I'd like to think a scum Frog wouldn't force himself to be lynched as scum when it'd force another scum to play the rest of the game solo.

Unless his partner is stationed to go deep or something?

BP is an unprovable usually scum claim. And unless it goes to someone dangerous it is usually not a huge deal for scum.

I figured it would be a -meh- role in a closed game.

Hmm

[Grendel]

VOTE: Nancy

I believe this is the right lynch today.

I think you could be right

[Grendel]

I've never bussed in any of my scum games either. It always seemed to work against what is supposed to be a team game. That's not to say that if I thought a bus could win me the game that I wouldn't take it though. But if everybody just "didn't bus", then town would mop up almost every game. Because a scum wagon would clear everybody on it.

Which wouldn't be fair, or fun

[Grendel]

I agree with whoever said Nancy felt like she was egging on Frogger/RC
.
.
.
I have my lynch pool as Grendel, LUV, and Nancy in no particular order I can describe.

@Nancy

The way you keep bouncing between sheeping RC, and Fo99er is gross too. Their at odds with each other, and moving to support one then the other is stretching the contentions between them.

So part of the reason you're scum reading nancy is based off a something your scum read said. The same one you've been scum reading since your opening post this game?

Something tells me that you intentionally "forget" it was me who said that.

[Grendel]

I hate to admit it, but I'm very susceptible to self meta. Most of my Nancy read is gut paranoia and losing faith in my other scum reads. I don't think that's enough to justify voting her.

I think sheep is it?

VOTE: CooperativeSheep

I need to reread some of this roster tbh

pre-edit

Hi RC

[Grendel]

@Nancy

Uh, I just noticed that you said you thought you were at L-1. Does that include when you made the post here?

Anyway I don't have any site meta to back this up but I don't bus. I don't like bussing I think it's a shitty gimmick people use when they don't have the skill to play scum properly and the current bus-heavy meta is something I could really do without.

[Grendel]

RC, and Rautherdir are town

Keyser Söze, Akarin, Fro99er all look town

Mattblk is a uncounterclaimed power role

I don't know what to do with LUV, or nancy

And I haven't seen anything that makes me town read Cooperative Sheep

This is really where I am at rn.

[Grendel]

When I get back later tonight I'll look at Sheep, nancy, and LUV in that order.

Preeidt:

It looked like you were purposely leaving out how you agreed with me.

Because openly agreeing with a scum read could smudge your shiny ethos badge.

Also, if you have us both in the same lynch pool then that would inply your were entertaining the thought right?

[Grendel]

This massclaim is a farce. It's Gredndel/Sheep. Anyone who doesn't see this is blind. I'm on fone will be home in a few hours to post properly.

Okay... then help me bus my buddy?

[Grendel]

@Pine: Could you prod Akarin again?

As to the mass claim: I'm just going to assume that all other town players are VT.

I don't see an especially good reason to lynch anyone right now. MBG, if you are our Jailkeeper you're basically dead. Which means you could try to jail scum instead of me, allowing me to investigate and you to have a chance to survive as well. Although now that I've said that they could just shoot me to see if you didn't protect me. At any rate:

VOTE: No Lynch

But if he does target you then town might get an extra lynch.

With how big the town block is the scum could PoE'd out of existence with an extra lynch at town's disposable.

[Grendel]

(Hey Pine, If I shower you with praise would I get a mention in the flavor that doesn't involve getting maimed?)

on topic

Looking a sheep rn. Its late on my end so that's probably the only one I'm looking at tonight.

[Grendel]

Yeah but like Grendal said on this page it's weird how he points out Grendal made a good point about Rau, but goes on to vote him without a word

What about my direct request that he sheep me onto Grendel - does that make his vote shift more or less suspect? Because since his vote was on RC doing nothing, and his Rau point didn't make him move his vote, we kind of have two possibilities.

1. The one you and Grendel are shopping - that he is scum who is indifferent about where he votes as long as he lynches town.

2. That he is town who doesn't have a strong enough opinion yet to marry himself to a wagon.

Both options seem quite feasible at this stage of the game - why do you classify it as "weird" and thus suspect it is scummy? Like, I never directly explained my scum read on Grendel, and poked at you more than I have Gerry (while calling you a lesser suspect) am I "weird" also? You're calling me town, so that seems like I'm missing something in how you're processing these issues.

The Viafam quote was addressing JarJar. Sheep defends JarJar, then throws suspension back at Viafam/Grendel for bringing up the point in the first place.

@Sheep What's your read on Grendel? I can't tell if you're actually scumreading him or not. I still think his reaction to his wagon yesterday was towny, and nothing he said so far day 2 pinged me as scummy. Kinda feels like you guys are wasting time arguing with each other when I think both of you guys are town

Gun to my head I'd call Grendel a scum read, but it's not a 'this is crystal clear in my head' sort of read. I am finding him kind of evasive by nature, I haven't really liked his votes, a wagon on him was reversed to a town flip very quickly, and his manipulative commentary shifting to 'you're arguing that my case for you being scum is incorrect' feels like a pretty awkward shift.

What was awkward about the shift?

And the transfer was that I came to was that your push didn't feel like you cared well I was scum, or not. It was for the sake of winning an argument. Obviously I was thinking that your case is wroung, but I don't think that was something I specifically said?

I thought it was pretty OB that I was trying to find my words.

I think now that I pointed it out it should be clear that I was suspecting Gerry early with my posts, You disagree?

Yeah, I do. You offered some general stabs at him in a soft/jokey manner. You did the same to many other people - if you suspected him at best I would be able to create a list of about five or six names you suspected equally. The vote did feel out of nowhere and without support.

I’m not sure where a stand on you, currently. I can’t help but feel that you have been manipulative.

Why?
I have literally not acheived any of my stated lynch goals yet in this game - what am I manipulating? Unless I manipulated you into voting Gerry somehow...?

I feel like you're trying to do more to prove me dumb rather then prove me scum. If that makes sense.

No, I'm not with you on that - I just asked why you think I'm manipulative. Do you feel I'm trying to manipulate you/make you look dumb by asking why you think I'm manipulative? I think when you make the accusation you ought to be able to talk about it to some degree - or at least tell me it's just a gut vibe or something.

Still owe 38+

I really disliked this post. I strongly disagree with the assertion that my vote of Gerry was “out of nowhere”. I clearly had interest in that slot that could be differencated from the rest of my early game banter. At least if Sheep actually cared about sorting me vs having enough evidence to make me look scummy.

Then that portion at the end where they take my original observation of Sheep as being “manipulative”, and cramming into their own statements as much as possible. It’s a rhetoric strategy for shutting down arguments. One I wouldn’t nesserly attribute as alignment indicative if it weren’t for the balanced image that Sheep has been displaying. As I think its an attempt to undermine an opponent’s credibility without relying on facts.

I mean, seriously, if I'm scum playing to look right all the time - I gotta be bussing at least one buddy, right?

I think reverse psychology is in play here. He makes the statement that if he was scum this game he’d be bussing right now, then as scum he goes on to do the opposite by staying on trans/Nancy, and town reading jarjar. Sort of like, “I stated I’d do this as scum, so I’d better do the opposite in the thread proper.”

JJD is (yet another townread of mine random blitzed to L-1...) the only one with the balls to even point out how BS sounding her reaction test was.
Like, look at her answer, "I 90% thought RC was town - so I hard pushed him as a test". Serious now? Probably like how she was laser guided to note she was at L-1, but immediately claimed without seeing if she had already claimed, or if people were still voting her - but at least she told us she was on a phone, y'know, to add empty veracity to her made up story.

Though Sheep never references it Sheep's accusations that Nancy's reaction test is bogus mirror JarJar thoughts quite closely.

Also, I don't think I mentioned it yet, but nancy's 1164 "pushing town" gambit could totally come from town. I say that because I did the same thing in another game where I pushed a case against OB town to fish for opportunistic scum votes. I'd perhaps say that its _more_ likely to come to town for the extension into hard work and creativity that scum are less inclined to try out. Though that can depend on the player.

[Grendel]

lol

Its okay Nancy. I thought about it, and you're probably town.

[Grendel]

Home finally. Have time for a quick post then shower and I'll be back.

VOTE: Nancy

I believe this is the right lynch today.

I think you could be right

This rarely comes from Town, not to mention I'm the only slot scumreading Grendel and there is significant scum motivation here to get rid of me.

I've never bussed in any of my scum games either. It always seemed to work against what is supposed to be a team game. That's not to say that if I thought a bus could win me the game that I wouldn't take it though. But if everybody just "didn't bus", then town would mop up almost every game. Because a scum wagon would clear everybody on it.

Which wouldn't be fair, or fun

Unsolicited opinions in the middle of my exchange with RC. This is scum!Grendel trying to distance himself from the idea of being a busser in this bus-heavy scumteam.

I hate to admit it, but I'm very susceptible to self meta. Most of my Nancy read is gut paranoia and losing faith in my other scum reads. I don't think that's enough to justify voting her.

I think sheep is it?

VOTE: CooperativeSheep

I need to reread some of this roster tbh

pre-edit

Hi RC

This is not town!Grendel. Grendel has been reluctant to vote anyone all game and how he's jumping on Sheep. He's also moving me back out of his lynchpool, probably to reduce associatives with Sheep, who still wants me dead for ~reasons~.

Both Grendel and Sheep also have each other in their lynch pools. This is way too fucking convenient.

The last two scum are in {Grendel, LUV, Sheep}.

VOTE: Grendel

pedit can't wait Pine

Uh, yeah, you clearly don't know enough about me to make any of the calls you're making here.

Like the "Grendel is pushing RC away from JarJar", argument was not impossible. I could see myself doing that as scum in some universes.But this is a joke compared to that.

1)The other wagon that I would have voted early in the day (Matt) was already close to being lynched. Compare that to here where Sheep had zero votes.

2)You are not the only one scum reading me. And if there was significant scum motivation in offing you now when the tides were turning why did I choose to back off?

[Grendel]

@Nancy

With the reads you have there's literally no reason cherry pick which lynch you want if we're both flipping scum. So you should get on Sheep.

[Grendel]

In class.

Checking in to avoid prod.

Will be back tonight.

[Grendel]

It looked like you were purposely leaving out how you agreed with me.

Because openly agreeing with a scum read could smudge your shiny ethos badge.

So you're saying my thought process was "Aw man, I simply *must* agreewith Grendel's lovely point, but I can't afford to have people notice that. i know, I'll call out Grendel in this post in a negative light while also agreeing with a point he made and hope he doesn't spot it and bring it up - never mind that I could just simply *not* say I liked the thought and be otherwise fine with everything I'm posting, but I'll try this awkward hide attempt for...no reason at all"

Yeah, I don't think that makes sense.
Shop it if you want.

Personally I could see you thinking that you could soften me by favorably referencing a point I made. But to not draw cross fire you decided against mentioning me by name. I would know what you’re talking about, but odds are nobody else would notice. I’m not saying that this is _what_ you did, but I do think its possible.

I’m noting how you intentionally gave an overtly wordy response with a flare of sarcasm. Sounds like scum offended at an accusation they consider invalid.

Also, if you have us both in the same lynch pool then that would inply your were entertaining the thought right?

Sure. But it's hardly enough of an entertainment to automatically presume everything you say is a lie from scum and not worth being considered.

Lol, I don't think you've been very receptive to the idea of town!Grendel this game. Are you trying to appease a scum read?

What was awkward about the shift?

And the transfer was that I came to was that your push didn't feel like you cared well I was scum, or not. It was for the sake of winning an argument. Obviously I was thinking that your case is wroung, but I don't think that was something I specifically said?

I thought it was pretty OB that I was trying to find my words.

Even in your answer here you're claiming you were "trying to find words" so I would ask you what wasn't awkward with the shift? You kept changing your tune as I questioned you on your motivations - that's awkward at face value. You can argue that it was town motivated awkwardness, but it's silly to suggest it wasn't awkward.

Okay, why don’t you think it was townie awkwardness then?

I also notice that most of your sorting on my slot comes from my responses to your response. How much of my slot have you looked at outside our interactions?
And yes, I do have a purpose in asking this.

[Grendel]

I jailed Keyser night 1, because I felt like he had a decent chance to be killed, and would be a decent person to keep alive.

mattblackguy, explain to me why you jailkeeped me N1, when you came into D2 saying:

Why is Keyser a strong townread? I can see him as scum.

The fact that Keyser didn't make a vote outside of RVS yet was still active is a little concerning.

huh, that’s a good point.

Not only did he switch his reads entering D2, but a negative result should have made you 1/3 less likely to be scum from his pov. Those dance moves aren't very groovy.

Today I think that lynching a claimed pr wouldn't be a good idea.

[Grendel]

Like what are the possibilities here with Rauth getting a No Result and there being no NK? If mbg is Town JK then scum had to have either targeted Rauth or RC or an unclaimed BP. If they targeted Rauth that means they have no RB. If they targeted RC they're happy with their position or potentially Keyser is scum. We have no way of telling which one it was until one of those 3 dies, I think?

If mbg is scum JK then they jailed Rauth and targeted RC or an unclaimed BP. We have no way of telling which until one of the 2 dies.

If mbg is scum goon then they targeted RC or an unclaimed BP but that doesn't explain the No Result. They would have to have a roleblocker or Rauth's claim was fake.

If they had a JK/roleblocker, again, why would they kill RC? That's just a risk you don't take unless you can really afford the consequences should you be wrong.

The only way RC is scum is if Ruath is scum with him.

Which is in my opinion.

[Grendel]

Im not a PR I just know there is an angel watching over me that wont let me be mislynched today

Real.

This bothers me a lot b/c I thought for sure that when Frogger said that his lynch would clear LUV that the two had some funky role like Oracle that would clear another player post death. Or if not that they were neighbors.

It just seems like somebody would make a post like this to validate another player's claim later for roles that involve multiple ppl.

Any case I've been itching over that since the mutual vt claim, so I decided to bring it up.

[Grendel]

I still think Grendel is a scumfuck and your read there is wrong though.

I really want to follow you on this but I can't seem to get there. What are you seeing that the rest of us aren't?

umm, as the player this game with the most prior experience with me... I'd think I'd be pretty OB town to you by the time you made this post.

What reservations are you having?

[Grendel]

So LUV claimed motion detector.

UNVOTE:

We already have two investigative roles with a cop+back up cop. Cop being really strong, and Back up being decently strong.

Unless I'm mistaken I don't see town power requiring any more investigative strength.

[Grendel]

Five claimed power roles...

Really wouldn't have expected scum to fake claim anything with so many roles already out in the open. But

with

so many roles out in the open it guarantees one is scum. And while I'm surprised that a scum Uzi would claim a power role at this stage- his role makes the least sense of the claimed roles.

His behavior has also been off his scum meta by a bit. Though I noticed in another game that his town game had improved, I guess he could have developed his scum skills too over the past several months. At the very least he learned to stop making the wordy catch up posts, and hasn't been working reactively to others questions toward him vs actively making his own observations. I guess I should have checked his recent scum games to see how much he has changed as a player.

I know I said I wouldn't lynch a pr claim today but:

VOTE: LUV

[Grendel]

Gerry - town - Cop
RC - Cleared by Ruath - BP
Ruath - Highl, highly likely town- Back up cop
-/-
Matt- Not super sure but town is in need of a protective role, Matt is only claimed protective with active powers - jailkeeper
-/-
LUV- 3rd investigative that claimed under pressure- Motion detector

Yeah. I'm happy with flipping luv.

[Grendel]

UNVOTE:

mmm, I was thinking about it earlier today, and LUV claiming a pr doesn't make a lot of sense. As a mafia he'd see the four claims on the table and claim vt. It looked a lot more open/shut yesterday.

I'm not too swayed by the points against Ruath. I'm not sure what I could add to what Fro99er already said there, in that Ruath would be playing a very risky gambeit that newb!scum would shy away from. In my previous experience with Ruather he was laid back as town, so I don't see him being balls out as a scum player.

I'm okay with Mattblk. I'm nervous about losing a potential town protective, but I actually hadn't taken in the possibility of a scum jail keeper as a role here. My mind was stuck on a Scum!Matt being an rb/goon fake claiming jk, but jail keeper makes sense here too. The lack of kill last night makes it awkward to judge though.

If we're lynching in the vts I'm more then happy to go back to Sheep.

[Grendel]

Like scum!Ruath intentionally doing things that he saw me doing as scum is really brazen. Idk if he expected me to call him out like I did, but I don't see him taking a risk like that as scum when he absolutely didn't have to. It'd be a really dumb attempt at wifoming me if he were scum.

Meanwhile, it is more understandable from town pr that thinks they _should act scummy_ to avoid getting night killed. It is a bad strategy, but is one that is more likely from my pov.

[Grendel]

I'm tired tonight.

will be proactive tomorrow.

[Grendel]

LITERALLY NO1 IS DEFENDING MBG IF THEY ARE SCUM SOMEONE IS BUSSING

His receding from the thread proper could mean his partner decided to bus.

[Grendel]

I remembered Anakin looking town when I reread her slot the other day.

I think I see where Nancy and others are coming from on Think big though. That LUV vote wasn't good in retrospect.

Lets see

[Grendel]

RadiantCowbells, nancy, Fro99er, Keyser Söze, Rautherdir,

Lil Uzi Vert, ThinkBig,

Cooperative Sheep, mattblackguy

Lynch outside of the town reads until we win?

We have so many town looking people I really don't see us losing lol.

[Grendel]

Welcome back Pine.

Yes, Sheep, I am pushing a counterwagon off one member of my proposed scumteam onto another member. You got me.

I'm not claiming hypocrisy in your theory scumteam, I'm claiming it in relation to your vote, and also attacking someone for doing something that you're also doing.

Sheep keeps citing hypocritical behavior like is a scum tell.

I'm not so inclined to believe that. Much more likely that Sheep is pushing out those kinds of arguments b/c they look like insightful observations.

[Grendel]

@Sheep bussing at this point is suicide..

Does that mean you don't think that Sheep could be bussing Mattblk right now?

Sheep attacking you for not being on Matt's wagon looks like scum maximizing the use of a future buddies flip to their advantage.

Ei bussing scum are gonna hunt outside the wagon.

[Grendel]

UNVOTE:

ThinkBig, I want to believe you are Town so could you please link me to any/all Town games where you push a scumslip?

I'm flat out not voting in PRs today. Also, judging by the lack of reactions to my push on ThinkBig I'm inclined to believe that mbg and ThinkBig share alignments, and I think that alignment is more likely than not Town. If I'm not wrong on this count, I believe Fro99er following me onto ThinkBig is Town-motivated, which solidifies my read on that slot, so I'm not willing to lynch there today and that leaves {Grendel, Sheep}. Pending anything extraordinary from ThinkBig I don't think this stance is likely to move much for the remainder of the day.

Can you elaborate more on these thought processes?

[Grendel]

Sheep keeps citing hypocritical behavior like is a scum tell.

I'm not so inclined to believe that. Much more likely that Sheep is pushing out those kinds of arguments b/c they look like insightful observations.

Because I think it is - if you think something is what scum do, and is a valid tell to find scum, then *by definition* you think it is not something town should do (or you are using really bad logic in your scum tells). That makes it a valid scum tell.

I also "keep" citing it exactly twice, and only once strongly. All repetitions are based on people asking me about it.
Nancy also dismissed my case on her as us 'reading a different game' and then claimed she didn't even understand what hypocrisy I saw - that's not how you sort people.

I used to think that projection of something a player had previously done onto another player was a sign of scum guilt. Though I never got evidence to confirm it to be the case, in fact situations that out right contrasted it, (usually irrational town). Which I think is similar to what you are saying, ei "Pushing somebody for being hypocritical". If this is a legitimate thing you believe in I would like to hear some evidence you have for it in the post game.

Nancy has been playing a pretty open fisted game. While some things don't add up logically with her pushes, I don't think I've see much scumminess from her slot. Even the liquid reads, it seems counter productive to a scum game since jumping from town, scum, town, scum with her slot assessments opens her up to a lot of attack she could have avoided with more static reads.

[Grendel]

Yeah, I want to lynch a vt claim today

VOTE: Sheep

[Grendel]

Ehh, some spacing between thoughts would have been nice Nancy.

Its a lot of "ifs", but I think you have good points there.

What are some of your current thoughts on Sheep?

It sound like you disagree with some of my case there?

[Grendel]

pro-doge, currently busy.

The dynamic of this roster just keeps changing every time I come back to the game.

Like are there more substitutes alive then original players on the roster?

[Grendel]

I was hoping to play it safe today with a Vt lynch. Lynching one of the pr claims sounded like a gamble.

But it doesn't look like the sheep wagon is going anywhere, and I'm too mentally worn out from real life to try and bring Sheep to the forefront.

If it comes down to Mattblk/Ruath today I'm probably voting Mattblk.

I'll check both their posting history again to be sure tho

[Grendel]

Just posting to say I still think Matt is town, and thus will not be voting him.

I know. I'm voting for a No Lynch right now.

Prodge. I seriously want a no lynch today, and I'm not sure anyone else is receptive to that.

Reading these as they happened I didn't think much beyond these other then a off site tell (Pretty sure ToS players default to no lynching a lot). But in retrospect if Ruath is scum he wouldn't want to flip Matt b/c a town jk would condemn Ruath tomorrow.

I also just realized how little Ruath has said/done today. Doesn't look like near confirmed town trying to prove themselves.

[Grendel]

Finished rereading and... I know who I'm voting for now.

VOTE: Fro99er

Asking to be lynched is rather anti-town.

This is such an arbitrary reason to want to lynch somebody?

Ruath didn't even fleshing this read out beyond that. This looks really out of his character.

Pre-edit: Really don't know if you're quoting that b/c you agree or what nancy

[Grendel]

Mattblkis fine too.

Its really a eye for an eye situation imo, which always ends up befitting town.

[Grendel]

THe thing I Can't get over with Ruath is how he decided to clear RC when JarJar dedicated his D2 play to pushing RC.

That had little scum motivation.

[Grendel]

uh

Was that hammer?

[Grendel]

Nancy... plz think things through before you post.

RC!scum doesn't make sense here

[Grendel]

Like you can't pretend that RC didn't favor lynching Ruath until it was apparent that nobody was gonna listen.

[Grendel]

nancy you have been so all over the place that if we were going to lynch in the vts it'd be you

Can you not reflectively scum read people who scum read you?

Nancy is town imo

[Grendel]

Oh yeah, I was trying to read matt/Ruath wasn't I?

Should get back to that.
-/-/-/-/-/-

@RC
I guess stuff happened since, but I seem to recall that I was your VT scum pick. When did Nancy fall below me?

From the surface it looks like you keep getting annoyed at Nancy for being derpy, and wanting to scum read her for it. I mean, if you have legit reason feel free to shake me by the shoulders.

[Grendel]

UNVOTE:

I don't have much time left on my end.

Since we have an extension I'll come back tomorrow to complete my thought processes.

[Grendel]

I am prepared to make a leap of faith that goes against my previously held stances.

VOTE: Ruath

I wrote Ruath off as town for cock blocking JarJar yesterday, but nothing Ruath has done today inspires further reason to town read him. And when a new player starts OB!towning it usually doesn't

stop

overnight. Ruath comparatively has been way too under spoken today for my liking. His votes today were also really bad.

[Grendel]

So its LUV x Fro99er?

God I suck at this game

[Grendel]

@Nancy

I'm not sure what you want me to add to the table here. RC has a guilty on Gin, the last scum can be smoked out. This is auto-win.

Is there something you personally wanted me to address?

[Grendel]

==> Vote Count 2.6 <==

[L-6] Grendel -
[L-6] Akarin -
[L-6] Rautherdir -
[L-1] JarJarDrinks - Akarin, nancy, Grendel, Lil Uzi Vert, Fro99er
[L-3] Lil Uzi Vert - mattblackguy, Keyser Söze, RadiantCowbells
[L-4] nancy - Cooperative Sheep, JarJarDrinks
[L-6] Cooperative Sheep -
[L-6] Keyser Söze -
[L-6] Fro99er -
[L-6] mattblackguy -
[L-6] RadiantCowbells -

Waiting for their DOOM - Rautherdir


This doesn't add up though.

Probably means that Luv/Gin is scum pr of some sort.

If a goon and scum power are both likely lynches you as scum would bus the goon to save the power right?

[Grendel]

Tbh though it's probably more likely Grendel and not Frogger :/

Grendel was nullreading LUV, and JarJar this entire game.

Day 2, he says me and Rauth are his top scumreads, but he never even votes for either of us or tries to push either of us. In the same post that he says me and Rauth are his top scumreads he says Jar is null. He later votes Jar, because "I rather lynch Jar over LUV". Not voting Jar because he thinks he's scum. He's voting him because his only options are his 2 teammates.

I'd say, "that's not my read progression bro", but looking at my own posts that day it would've come across that way. My open read on JarJar was null-scum, and I hadn't bothered to really look at LUV at all.

In truth my read on JarJar

was

my strongest scum read by post 1369.

[Grendel]

RC is conf town. Scum tried to kill Rauth night 2. RC wouldn't try to night kill someone he knew was faking an inno on him if he was scum.

QFT

RC!Scum would've taken Ruath to the endgame (Lylo) and mislynched him there. Not while RC could keep basking in the claim at hand.

[Grendel]

I jailed Frogger last night.

Ahhh, what about ThinkBig?

Fro99er being jailed last night means he is 1/2 as likely to be scum as me or Think Bigly.

[Grendel]

Hmm, would Luv's fake claiming given his slot incentive to preform the night kill?

Or the opposite?

[Grendel]

If I were fake claiming power as scum I'd be wary of preforming the night kill due to the possibility of the jailkeeper in this set up jailing me at night. So I'd want my partner preforming the night kill last night. If the jailkeeper protected defensively, (Which would be reasonable with the opportunity of gleaning an extra lynch for town), their only option would have been Gin since RC was still claiming to be BP at the time.

Anybody know how daring a scum player Gin is?

...I just really want Fro99er to be town after hard town reading him for so long.

[Grendel]

RC, you didn't get an inno on Sheep?

Waitt

You a tracker/Watcher?

[Grendel]

I REALLY don't think sheep and LUV are a team based off LUV's case on sheep. It wasn't a buddy case

Was that the "Why are we masscliaming" thing LUV said?

Or was he considering Sheep before then?

I do agree that LUV x Sheep aren't a likely team. Mainly due to the merit that I don't see LUV being the player scum would want to set up to go deep. Especially if Sheep was his buddy.

[Grendel]

I actually am losing track of the number of contradictions in RC's play even just this Day phase.
He should clean those thoughts up.

Hi coopsheep,

How are you doing?

[Grendel]

Oh my god Fro99er.

I hope you're okay! D:

[Grendel]

despite winning, I honestly feel like I played poorly this game. :/

[Grendel]

For the most part I felt like a non-entity, spectating from the sidelines.

Ahh, At least I can say I didn't directly hinder town's won-con?

Nailing scum would have been more satisfying though.

[Grendel]

RadiantCowbells, nancy, Fro99er, Keyser Söze, Rautherdir,

Lil Uzi Vert, ThinkBig,

Cooperative Sheep, mattblackguy

Lynch outside of the town reads until we win?

We have so many town looking people I really don't see us losing lol.

Wish I hadn't gotten all paranoid of Ruath near EoD on day 3. My town reads were 5/5 right before that misstep.

Also the entire scum stayed in my null/ null-scum reads for most the game. JarJar being nullscum, and Gin/Think big being null.

Actually I town read Anakin day 2 didn't I?

Shoot.

[Grendel]

@CooperativeSheep & Mattblk

Sorry for scum reading ya'll so hard.

[Grendel]

Subject: Hell is other people

Yeah, I think post-endgame is going to turn into an ad hoc theory discussion about Town gambits.

Is this the group discussion you want to have Pine?

[Grendel]

Subject: Hell is other people

Yeah, I think post-endgame is going to turn into an ad hoc theory discussion about Town gambits.

Is this the group discussion you want to have Pine?

Yes. I was going to get some other things done first, but let's get it rolling.

There were an absolute crapton of Town fakeclaim gambits this game. I'm looking at you, Rautherdir and RC.

I don't find them to be helpful or pro-Town. They

repeatedly

almost screwed Town over, to the point where it was sheer dumb luck that they didn't. Rautherdir claimed roleblock at the start of D3, after MBG

just happened

to jailkeep him the night before. If he'd claimed any kind of investigation at all, it would have (and should have) gotten him MLed. He also faked an innocent on RC (I think) which could have been disastrous if it had been wrong and believed.

All of the fakeclaims also completely screwed up your setup speculation. This was a very low-power game, and the Deputy + Motion Detector claims really threw that off its axle.

And that's not even touching all of RC's claims. Yeesh.

I'm not saying Town fakeclaims are always a bad idea, but they were way overboard this time around.

Motion detector was LUV!scum's fake claim. That's a bit different then town fake claiming something

What are some situations you've seen that you'd classify as a town fake claim done right?

[Grendel]

I think Grendel is town. everyone else can die.

RC was I really your strongest endgame town read?

I barely said anything in the past two days lol.

[Grendel]

If Cooperative Sheep wasn't a universal scumread it may have been him too but I didn't feel like fighting crowd sentiment when I was equally certain that you were town.

Idk it's just kind of rattling that I started the JJD wagon, immediately called the associatives with LUV, only to get sidetracked by town fakeclaiming (and if Fro99er wasn't so adamant I'd have still insisted on lynching Uzi that day), then immediately nailed Gin/TB in consecution to read a dead thread of people bitching about my play.

Even if you don't like my gambits I feel like my scumhunting after the Gerryoat fuckup was on point. I am sad.

I thought that Gin/Luv's slot flipping scum made it pretty clear that sheep was town. It seems that Fro99er was the only other player that

really

picked up on that.

I think everything you did post D1's mislynch kept town moving in the right direction RC. You, and Keyser, were pivotal to town's victory imo. Things probably would have turned out differently if you died early/ weren't here for D3-D5.

[Grendel]

What are some situations you've seen that you'd classify as a town fake claim done right?

I can think of a couple of them (even from the same game!), yes.

I actually read some of that Game!

I was reading NachoMama's posts and saw how he caught the GF (Kata-whateverhisnameis) in his death by hiding behind the GF.

I did see your twilight masonizer gambit too. I thought it was pretty awesome move on your part!

[Grendel]

What are some situations you've seen that you'd classify as a town fake claim done right?

It's pretty limited. For starters, they're best used sparingly. I'd go several games between attempts, bare minimum. They are also best when they are exaggerations or minimizations of the truth, such as claiming Doc when you're actually a Bodyguard, or Cop as a Hider. My various waffling about my abilities in Clumsy's Curse of Strahd mini is a good example of a Town lie.

When they're bad is when they're provably or demonstrably falsifiable, or when they're made without a clear-cut and direct agenda. Anything that requires you to produce results that could be found to be wrong is dangerous. Doubling down on investigative roles greatly complicates setup spec. Claiming Tracker would have been just fine as BP, because you might draw the kill onto your shield. But doing so flippantly for a murky reason with a robust investigator already flipped when you've already claimed something else is just unhelpful. The dead thread and I collectively rolled our eyes.

Hm okay. Most of this isn't news to me.

I often underplay my hand as a strong power role to avoid getting night killed. Like saying I'm a weaker variant of a strong role, Neocop vs role cop.

Likewise as a middling power role I over play my hand to draw. Ex claiming full vigilante when I'm actually X-shot.

Which is like you said. Telling the truth, but leaving out a critical component that would otherwise change how scum interacts with your slot.

[Grendel]

There were an absolute crapton of Town fakeclaim gambits this game. I'm looking at you, Rautherdir and RC.

I don't find them to be helpful or pro-Town. They

repeatedly

almost screwed Town over, to the point where it was sheer dumb luck that they didn't. Rautherdir claimed roleblock at the start of D3, after MBG

just happened

to jailkeep him the night before. If he'd claimed any kind of investigation at all, it would have (and should have) gotten him MLed. He also faked an innocent on RC (I think) which could have been disastrous if it had been wrong and believed.

I faked an innocent on RC because I recognized his play as something I would do as town, mostly because what RC did day 1 was a plan I had thought about after my first game, in which I was a 1-shot BP. If JJD hadn't flipped town I would have retracted immediately day 3 and pushed a lynch on RC. I knew the moment I survived that night that I was almost certainly roleblocked. As for why I didn't retract... I was worried about Lynch All Liars. Honestly now that I think about it, Keyser and RC probably would have kept the rest of town from lynching me if I had retracted.

But anyways, enough blatant excuses, Good Game everyone!

pEdit: Yes, Keyser and RC are the most valuable players of this game.

Interestingly enough my strong town read of Nancy came from her making a case against her town read of RC to hunt for opportunistic scum that might jump onto the wagon.

I did the exact same thing in a previous game as town.

Nancy also did other things that heavily paralleled what I was doing in that game. Really weirded me out tbh.

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=68600

[Grendel]

I thought that Gin/Luv's slot flipping scum made it pretty clear that sheep was town.

Why was this?

If Sheep were scum utilizing a masscliam for scums benefit, why would they have encouraged LUV to fake claim what and when he did. Even if LUV was operating on the fly it seems like he would have had some intel from sheep as to what would be good claims for the situation. LUV claiming a

third investigative

was and in a SheepxLUV relationship I don't think LUV would've ran that play.

Plus I don't think there wasn't much scum chemistry between their demeanors, specifically how LUV treated Sheep. Though this point is a bit more abstract/gut.

Also thanks for keeping a cool head Grendel when my read on your slot was basically spasming for 2 Days straight.

I had no idea at what level you were operating at logically, but I definitely didn't see it coming from scum.

Why were you so paranoid of me?