Mini 1875: Pine's Death Trap Post Game - Town win!

[RadiantCowbells]

I am asking you, if you had to make your best guess, what alignment is MattBlackGuy in this game?

[Grendel]

@LUV

You were online and responding to other games earlier, but didn't even drop by to greet me.

Wheres the love LUV?

@Somebody with Previous experience with VIfam

Does Vifam make emotional appeals much as scum?

@RC

I think that Matt is town based off of yesterdays wagon construction (On me).

[RadiantCowbells]

Well I disagree.

VOTE: MattBlackGuy

[Vifam]

The fact that Keyser didn't make a vote outside of RVS yet was still active is a little concerning.

idk the day ended pretty quick and not everyone drops their vote every other post

[Grendel]

Hmm,

you disagree with that point spefically, or is there something else you are looking at?

[Grendel]

Hmm,

you disagree with that point spefically, or is there something else you are looking at?

@RC

[Vifam]

When did I make an emotional appeal

[RadiantCowbells]

No matter how hard I try you're never satisfied.
This is not a home I think I'm better off alone.
You always disappear even when you're here.
This is not my home I think I'm better off alone.

[Keyser Söze]

There are 3 players I will NOT be voting today:

RadiantCowbells
Vifam
Transcend

I refuse to believe they are obv-scum.

Their anti-town/scummy actions on D1 made me want to replace out.
People must remember this a team game. I do not respect selfish players.
I could spend all of D2 attacking their play but it's too easy work (however, I will express my position on all three players before moving on).
My only interactions with them today will be to find scum in the remaining pool (Grendel, Akarin, Rautherdir, JarJarDrinks, Lil Uzi Vert, Cooperative Sheep, mattblackguy).

[Keyser Söze]

RadiantCowbells

Spoiler: List of observations I made D1 I still remain unchanged on

1) RC was miss-repping gerryoat's reason for scum-reading him.
2) I do not like RC's overreaction to gerryoat's vote on him. RC miss-implied that gerryoat was scum reading everyone for the same reason.
3) RC refused to see what I was trying to explain, and refuse to acknowledge gerryoat's reason for scum-reading him
4) I felt RC's vote on gerryoat was OMGUS-fueled and tactically futile
5) claiming a cop role did not make his D1 reads any more accurate or trustworthy
6) RC claiming a cop role ensured he wouldn't be lynched D1
7) RC did not convince me of scum-gerryoats. RC claiming a cop role did not change that fact
8) RC's cop role claim was short-sighted (as town). I felt it insured his safe passage to N1/D2.
9) I did not believe the validity of RC's roleclaim. I thought fakeclaming a cop role in a small game was tactical suicide (as town) because a real cop would more likely counter. In this game, it was gerryoat's reaction (the real cop) to RC's claim that got him miss-lynched.
10) I did not see any long-term motivation in RC's play, because I thought he was unlikely to last the whole game now. WIFOM makes me town-lean that behaviour
11) I think his play is selfish and anti-town.
12) I felt RC's attempt to scare me on to the gerryoat wagon was pathetic and weak.
13) I town-leaned RC's behaviour of taking pride in his own scum-game, and viewing someone's critique of their game as a personal attack of their skill. I thus concluded RC vs gerryoat was TvT.
14) RC bringing up games where he had a great game as town was laughable. I was not going to blindly sheep RC into a wagon I did not believe in.

New thoughts:

RC spent the latter part of D1 forming association-reads off his main scum-read (gerryoats). Thus, basically anyone defending gerry, hedging on the gerry-wagon, or opposing the gerry-lynch were gerryoat's scum partners.

[All this paranoid/drawing-up-lines-together scum theory I would usually associate with a townie who has a very strong scum read of a player. Thus, he was stuck in confirmation-bias. Does scum-RC have the ability to replicate this behaviour? Yes - but in this game his name is fucked now. He played a large role in a misslynch and the indirect outing/death of the cop. His play just attracts an investigation / vig kill / reflex wagon. WIFOM: where is the scum-motivation in that?]

RC has now roleclaimed bulletproof townie - something you should never claim unless you are L-1/intent on you. RC has now ensured the only way he is getting out of this game is through a day lynch.

WIFOM dictates RadiantCowbells is town

who had sincere town-motivation to solve the game through his fake-claim gambit. His methods proved hurtful and disastrous. He's probably only got a couple more miss-lynches in him until someone pushes a policy lynch. I will not be voting for him unless night-actions prove he is scum. We must now work with him.

[Keyser Söze]

Vifam

That's weird I tend to keep all my thoughts to myself

Playing with Vifam, this rings very true.

I do not expect Vifam to present an exhaustive 2 page scum-case or detailed 10 bullet-point dossier on his scum reads.

On D1, Vifam kept repeating:

"I dont wanna lynch Gerry or RC today tho"
"I like Gerry"
"I just like having Gerry in the game he's entertaining"
"RC didn't really sell me with her argument on Gerry being scum"
"I don't think he's done anything scummy yet"
"Plus I just like him"
"I don't have a strong read on Gerry so I don't really feel like lynching him right now."
"I never said I was interested in lynching either of you"
"never said I was interested in lynching him or thought he was scum"

^^^Now if that isn't fucking clear enough I don't know what is.^^^

Then this happened:

Im gonna hammer it

VOTE: Gerry

- quickhammer with no roleclaim
- hammering a player that you did not scum read
- quickhammering before half the player list had caught up
- ending Day 1 prematurely

Yet another WIFOM argument:

Vifam's scummy/anti-town actions made me sick to the core. I wanted Lucille to kiss his skull with her barbed-wire teeth.
Scum do not play like that. I bet the majority of players right now would consider a Vifam policy-lynch as a pro-town move.
As scum you must set yourself up for the long game. If you're going to bury yourself you at least make sure your scum partner is the one who drives the dagger into your back.
In this scenario, everyone has justifiable reason to lynch Vifam.
There is no scum-gain.
No one can win any town-points from his lynch.
Was his purpose only to kill 1 townie for 1 scum?
He wasn't even a mass-scum read so he could have just continued his low-key trajectory and stayed off the grid.
Now he's put a target on his head (inviting both day and night attention).

Scum-motivation?
So players like Keyser can town-read him using WIFOM? I don't buy that.

I won't be voting Vifam.

[Keyser Söze]

Transcend

I still stand by what I told Transcend on Day 1:

Nvm 622 was scummy as fuck

Not scummy, it's me clearly saying how I will approach your playstyle.

Basically you're saying 'leave me alone let me do my own thing'. I respect that.

I accept I can't change the way you have been playing. If you're contributing to lynching scum you won't be an immediate concern of mine (but still wouldn't be a town read, as in the case of a Gerry scum flip).

But if you are lynching town and not giving the whys/who's/when/how's to what you're doing I want to revisit your slot with heightened scrutiny.

Now I don't give a fuck who you think you are, but you are now sharing the reasons why you are town-reading / null-reading / scum-reading players.

On Day 1 I said I would allow you room to do whatever you think you're doing, but your actions contributed to a miss-lynch.

1) I did not respect or understand your reads Day 1.

This needs to change for Day 2.

2) I did not like your interactions around the Gerry-lynch.

It was scummy as fuck and opportunistic but I will not push your lynch for it.

3) I did not like you goading Vifam to quickhammer Gerry.

It was sickening but I will not push your lynch for it. More likely two townies being selfish and fucking up.

4) You said my "posts feel overdone and ingenuine".

That is your subjective opinion so I must respect that, but I hope you make your contributions more 'done' and 'genuine' for the benefit of this game.

I do not know what is in Transcend's head. I do not know his motivations. All I see so far are the results of his actions.

I am unlikely to vote for Transcend today.

[Keyser Söze]

@Keyser

Even though I won't be joining the wagon I must admit it is the optimum info lynch based on the interactions so far this game.

No early hammer gentlemen.

I'd like to hear some of your conclusions.

You seemed to have some thoughts pending the flip.

Yes, I will want to discuss these interactions next.

It all stems from my paranoia on D1:

People keep saying gerryoat is scum but then they vote someone else...

Is it because:
1) you have a stronger scum read?
2) you think it is an inevitable lynch so you're going to jump on later?
3) are you waiting for your town reads to vote for him?
4) do you want to gain more information on other players then would gladly hammer?

gerryoat is one of the most active players so you should vote for him and ascertain if he really is scum NOW. People are labeling him scum but leaving it at that. Many agree with RC's reasoning that gerryoat's reaction to his PR-claim is categorically scum-indicative.

I will first look at Cooperative Sheep, Rautherdir and JarJarDrinks.

[Keyser Söze]

I may look at mattblackguy first actually:

The fact that Keyser didn't make a vote outside of RVS yet was still active is a little concerning.

Either you did not fully read Day 1 or you are scum.

VOTE: mattblackguy

You can start by deconstructing your read of JarJarDrinks from Day 1 through to Day 2 (from scum-read to town-read)

GO!

[Cooperative Sheep]

Grendel wagon yesterday sucked and it contained {Keyser, matt, Sheep, JarJar, Vifam}

I bet at least 2 scum were here.

By what logic do you conclude one scum on a known town PR flip and 2 scum on an unknown flip that you're not even overly confident is town?

What's your take on Transcend's contributions to the game thus far?

I think they suck.

Why do you not apply a scum alignment to him with that as your opinion of his play?

I was originally interested in Gerry before RC vs Gerry occurred. I generally like to have open reasoning out for critiques before voting. Saying that i voted my counter wagon, _just_ because it was my counter wagon is unfair. Also people had reservations about Gerry, and i probably could have done as well pushing Ruath instead.

You didn't make those stances clear at the time, and the vote did look survivalistic to me. Clearly you'd disagree, but from someone splitting hairs about "how townie did Sheep really state Keyser" as a basis to suspect me - I'm curious why you wanted me to presume things you didn't even remotely imply. Double standard?

Prefacing it with “I Don’t get the strong town reads”, along with the usage of both “Kinda tend”, made me think the “town read” was weak enough to assume that he was null. You hamming it up to be a strong town read looks like an exaggeration. Did you go on to reference Seyser as more then kinda sorta town read before I made the above posts?

Your previous issue with me was that I didn't sheep a town read but sheeped someone I didn't town read.
Now that you're aware I at least stated Keyser as my second strongest town read - your issue is that I didn't sheep a potentially stronger town read. You also made up that I called it a strong town read, i just said I town read him - which my words support.
Goal posts, they be a movin'.

Well you were in my scum reads weren’t you?

Why do you think scum would hop onto the wagon opportunistically *before* it hit a tipping point? To be opportunistic doesn't the hop have to be after the tipping point?

I’m not sure where a stand on you, currently. I can’t help but feel that you have been manipulative.

Why?
I have literally not acheived any of my stated lynch goals yet in this game - what am I manipulating? Unless I manipulated you into voting Gerry somehow...?

Hey you smurfs what are all of your Matt reads?

Null to town.

The fact that Keyser didn't make a vote outside of RVS yet was still active is a little concerning.

You don't think the day ending a bit suddenly might have something to do with that? I don't even think he was on between the fall of the Grendel and the hammer of the Gerry wagon until right at the end when he complained about it.

When did I make an emotional appeal

The obvious one would have been with the "Aw man, I screwed up, I feel bad" post - which is arguably an emotional appeal to make us go "yes, i too remember times I've screwed up in games and felt bad" in an attempt to get sympathy and avoid a lynch.

I do not know what is in Transcend's head. I do not know his motivations. All I see so far are the results of his actions.

I am unlikely to vote for Transcend today.

You explained the other two (which I agree with) you did not explain this one. Could you? I have Transcend tunneled right now.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

I have no idea what is happening but I guess it's RVS so I'll just vote someone.

VOTE: Akarin

Scummy post

No, your reply is the actually definition of scummy. Where's your vote?

I pointed out his post was scummy. That doesn't mean I automatically vote him. I pointed out other scummy posts as well.

Where are the attempts to dig?

What else can I really say about that post? I explained to him why I thought it was scummy.

Do you not care why he thinks Gerry is scum and RC is town?

Sure I care.

Well my thing is, why? Just saying it's scummy without backing it up is pointless and arguably will help him in the long run if he's scum. He'll know that whatever he did, said, or how he said something isn't ok and possibly will be able to adjust and blend in better.

I really don't like last part of this reply. Does it sound sarcastic to anyone else?

I just don't understand why you associate engaging with upset. I think him being himself has been enough so far.

"Engaging" does not = "upsetting". But it is one part of interactions I like to look at.

Part of my concern I am sure you should be able to relate to. You personally asked Rautherdir: "Are you usually this cautious?".

There is one type of mafia playing style I have encountered that Rautherdir has exhibited. Thus, I want to drill down on what he actually is posting (does he believe any of it? is he willing to broadcast those beliefs to everyone? is he willing to cause conflict in order to push his scum-reads?).

"I think him being himself has been enough so far."

- it sounds like you currenty town-read Rautherdir so I'd expect for that to be your default position. Do you have a problem with me wanting more from Rautherdir in order to 'enhance' my read of him?

Yes I currently town read him and I think I do. I'm not completely sure yet because I haven't had a chance to mull it over deeply but from your original request, it seems like you want him to purposely go out of character.

Point accepted. Please continue.

I'll come back to your slot if you lynch town.

Huh?

[Lil Uzi Vert]

Nvm 622 was scummy as fuck

Not scummy, it's me clearly saying how I will approach your playstyle.

Basically you're saying 'leave me alone let me do my own thing'. I respect that.

I accept I can't change the way you have been playing. If you're contributing to lynching scum you won't be an immediate concern of mine (but still wouldn't be a town read, as in the case of a Gerry scum flip).

But if you are lynching town and not giving the whys/who's/when/how's to what you're doing I want to revisit your slot with heightened scrutiny.

Why not ask him to show you what he's doing or show you how he does what he's doing so you can feel better at ease? You sound a bit reluctant to approach his play style this way.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

Im not a PR I just know there is an angel watching over me that wont let me be mislynched today

Real.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

@LUV

You were online and responding to other games earlier, but didn't even drop by to greet me.

Wheres the love LUV?

@Somebody with Previous experience with VIfam

Does Vifam make emotional appeals much as scum?

@RC

I think that Matt is town based off of yesterdays wagon construction (On me).

I was going to get to this game but honestly I just fell asleep.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

Vifam probably isn't scum sadly.

--

VOTE: Matt

[Cooperative Sheep]

I really don't like last part of this reply. Does it sound sarcastic to anyone else?

Hard to tell in text - if he had said "Suuuuuuure I care" then, yeah, sarcastic, if he had said "Sure I care" then, no. Can't tell without tonal inflections.

Vifam probably isn't scum sadly.

--

VOTE: Matt

Could you tell me whyI should sheep onto Matt and also why you didn't sheep onto Transcend?

[Transcend]

Matt's a mislynch.

Also, if you thought it was my birthday today, i mixed up the date.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

I really don't like last part of this reply. Does it sound sarcastic to anyone else?

Hard to tell in text - if he had said "Suuuuuuure I care" then, yeah, sarcastic, if he had said "Sure I care" then, no. Can't tell without tonal inflections.

Vifam probably isn't scum sadly.

--

VOTE: Matt

Could you tell me whyI should sheep onto Matt and also why you didn't sheep onto Transcend?

I don't really do cases, just reasons:

His joking around with Gerry earlier felt forced.
His vote for Grendel also felt forced. It read to me like he sensed he needed to do a strong town motivated play at the time to discourage any suspicion.
I didn't like how he just sort of shrugged of the chance to get a better idea of RC's alignment who he claims he's wary of.
I don't like how he opened today, feels like he should be voting for RC or Keyser.

--

As to why I didn't sheep you on to Transcend is because I don't really have a read on your slot and from what I remember of D1, Transcend didn't come off as scummy.

[Vifam]

The obvious one would have been with the "Aw man, I screwed up, I feel bad" post - which is arguably an emotional appeal to make us go "yes, i too remember times I've screwed up in games and felt bad" in an attempt to get sympathy and avoid a lynch.

Oh yeah I can see that

[Vifam]

Matt's a mislynch.

Also, if you thought it was my birthday today, i mixed up the date.

Why is Matt a mislynch