Open 669 - Nightless Vengeful Mayhem [Game Over]

[Ultimate Despair]

...

Your post was nonsense, I acknowledged it as such. I also justified why I saw it that way. Do you think just handwaving it away as "just throwing insults" helps you? It doesn't...

Yawn … I mean just repeating insults over and over doesn’t make them true. Appeal to Repitition is a logical fallacy scum use for a reason but it is easy to identify.

And just repeating that I'm wrong over and over again doesn't make yourself correct either.

Actually I was pointing out that scum-reading me for it was dumb. "The town motivation is obvious" means that there very obviously was potentially town motivation. Maybe I did do it for the WIFOM as scum. Maybe there was some other benefit that hasn't been discussed or isn't obvious. You're stretching here, especially since LITERALLY IN THE SAME PARAGRAPH (that you chose to cut off for whatever reason) I was making the point that fitz's argument was dumb, NOT the point that it made me obvtown.

But again – there really wasn’t Towm motivation. Or more correctly Town motivation that makes a lick of sense. Having’s points were not by any means off the wall. Supposed Town you should have no reason to say “Hey that was a stupid hammer must be scum motivated” since Town you should not know Moz was flipping Town. Given all you’ve said about how you were Town who Derp-hammered Day 1 there are realms of possibility where Town Hans derp hammers Moz scum there. Yet you didn’t given that a second thought and immediately went on the attack.

Except that...

Vote Count 2.7

Mozamis

(3):

Superhans

, MagnaofIllusion, Ultimate Despair, havingfitz

Ultimate Despair

(3): lucca261,

mozamis

, revan, mozamis

Superhans

(1):

Revan

,

mozamis

, doomfeathers

Revan

(1): superhans,

mozamis

Not Voting

(1): Nahdia_Superfan,

superhans

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Nahdia_Superfan replaces wgeurts.

Deadline has been extended.

(expired on 2017-02-08 09:00:01) until deadline.

Wow MOI is on a wagon I should vote there.

VOTE: Mozamis

VOTE: Moz

K switching to Moz, agree that her reads seem fake, and Rev doesn't seem likely today.

Moz is on L1 btw.

K nm she is L0

Given that these were all on the same page, can you explain how you failed to realize that your vote was hammer?
-M

Especially given that a hammer screwup had already happened this game, and had been discussed?
-M

You don't need a flip to look at that and think it's sketchy and want to push on it.

can you explain how you failed to realize that your vote was hammer

Is a QUESTION, and an entirely appropriate question to ask in the wake of a derp hammer (FWIW, a question like that asked to Junko after the day 1 hammer would ALSO have been appropriate, and I fail to see why questioning Hans on this is somehow hypocritical of me).
"Explain how you missed this seemigly super obvious fact" is something that, to anyone paying attention, should have been an OBVIOUS question to ask. That's not a "well gee you're obvscum" or "you couldn't possibly have had town motivation there" that's a demand for an explanation.

I called the HAMMER into question. Did you see me give a "oh no moz was town oh woe is me" spiel? Did you see anything OTHER THAN my calling the hammer into question there? If so please demonstrate.
Or please demonstrate how a twilight questioning of the hammerer is only useful given a town flip. If Moz flipped scum, would questioning that hammer somehow be meaningless?

And now you are back-tracking. As I just said above – again you really didn’t have any reason to question the hammer before the flip as Town. Post flip? At least then you can logically scum-hunt knowing it was a hammer on Town.

And as I just explained above, it's a perfectly reasonable thing to question regardless of flip. He represented a derp that is not particularly reasonable to have had. Maybe it was an intentional townslip attempt. Maybe he wanted to get in a hammer while the getting was good. Maybe it was an actual derp. Getting an answer on his process quickly would have been helpful. Waiting for a flip in order to do anything useful would not have been helpful.
You're representing the idea that somehow ONLY given a townflip was that questioning reasonable or useful, and that's simply not true.

How? You SAY it's suspect but your reasons are bogus. It looked like a potential scum-hammer (whether or not it was on a buddy), so I went after it. I don't need to wait for the mod to tell me the flip to be useful.

Nope. Your stance is predicated on a flip Town you should not have known. No way around that. Again repeating that my logic is bad doesn’t make it so. Sorry for you on that.

Repeating that my questioning is only valid given a town flip, or that said questioning necessarily presumes a town flip, is not logic that through repetition becomes true. Sorry for you on that.

That's pretty much bullshit though. I QUESTION his hammer under the assumption that it is UNLIKELY that he as town made that mistake given that it already happened, AND that there was another vote on Moz (and a sketchy looking vote at that) immediately before his vote. Please explain where I imply, much less state, that it is somehow an impossible town process. The paragraph that you cite below is COMPLETELY consistent with the reasoning as I explain it. No assumption that it is impossible as town exists.

Nope. Your thought process that Hans was scummy before hypo-Town you could know it was a bad hammer combined with the fact that you refuse to acknowledge his “crime” is exactly the same as yours but his isn’t likely to come from Town while yours totally did means you are just playing “Nah nah nah nah nah your are stupid” games at this point.

Town!UD thinks (NOT knows) that it's a bad hammer just by looking at it because no shit it looks like a bad hammer. It's a sketchy looking hammer just on the surface of it, and I don't need karnos to tell me moz's flip in order to realize that it's a sketchy looking hammer or act on my knowledge that it's a sketchy looking hammer.

The one good thing about this exchange is that I probably can rule out you and Hans as being partners. So that’s helpful.

Well at least you've gotten one piece of accurate info from the exchange.

[Ultimate Despair]

^
-M (as if that wasn't obvious)

[doomfeathers]

UD's reference for the emotion tell specifically said that anger doesn't count. I'm not really seeing any emotion other than anger from them, yet they're trying to use that as evidence of townishness.

FOS Ultimate Despair

[Superhans]

UD i explained why I accidentally voted and its in my ISO.

[Ultimate Despair]

UD's reference for the emotion tell specifically said that anger doesn't count. I'm not really seeing any emotion other than anger from them, yet they're trying to use that as evidence of townishness.

FOS Ultimate Despair

Probably inherent in that is "I'm better than you", which, for the record, is a fairly obvious and common town tell.

I'm not seeing the reasoning here. Could you explain it? I've read a lot on the wiki, and I've never come across anything like that.

So literally in that discussion was explicit evidence of arrogance, which, if real, is a generally a villagery emotion. Do you not see evidence of that? Do you disagree with the assessment? It seems exceptionally strange to me that, on the heels of a discussion that you yourself participated in about an emotion other than anger, you have chosen to interpret my posts (my whole ISO? only my last couple of posts?) as having been devoid of all emotion other than anger.

Why are you missing this point?

-M

[doomfeathers]

I guess there could well be arrogance in there as well. I don't really see that one being hard to fake as scum. I'm not seeing anything that would be.

[Ultimate Despair]

UD i explained why I accidentally voted and its in my ISO.

Basic AF excuse but I didn't actually realise I was quick hammering
I glanced at the VC at the top of the page and voted.

You offered an explanation, sure (not sure why you'd presume it's necessarily going to be believed). Over 15 minutes after you were asked. Why did it take you that long to offer up what easily could have been a quick one-off response?

Also

K nm she is L0

seems to be a particularly blah response to your realization that it was an accidental hammer. Do you normally offer up posts essentially devoid of emotion after you screw up? Can you point to any similar examples, either in this or other games of yours?

-M

[Superhans]

well I thought she would flip scum, tbh.

[Ultimate Despair]

I guess there could well be arrogance in there as well. I don't really see that one being hard to fake as scum. I'm not seeing anything that would be.

So did you forget about the discussion about arrogance when you made your "there's only anger" bit? It's weird that you'd be explicitly involved in a discussion on the topic and then discuss it as if it hadn't even happened. Are you generally forgetful about things that you're involved in? Should I just presume this is normal behavior for you and not worry that you're simply offering up a lazy excuse for a tactical vote?

-M

[Superhans]

so i didnt realise how badly id fucked up.

[Ultimate Despair]

well I thought she would flip scum, tbh.

So essentially you were so sure of Moz flipping scum that you didn't worry about a sketchy-looking sheep vote cast right before your own?

-M

[doomfeathers]

I guess there could well be arrogance in there as well. I don't really see that one being hard to fake as scum. I'm not seeing anything that would be.

So did you forget about the discussion about arrogance when you made your "there's only anger" bit? It's weird that you'd be explicitly involved in a discussion on the topic and then discuss it as if it hadn't even happened. Are you generally forgetful about things that you're involved in? Should I just presume this is normal behavior for you and not worry that you're simply offering up a lazy excuse for a tactical vote?

-M

It's pretty angry arrogance, that's for sure. I took into account what I'd read, then applied my best guess at what emotions would be difficult to fake as scum. Your attitude would be pretty easy, in my opinion.

[Ultimate Despair]

It's pretty angry arrogance, that's for sure. I took into account what I'd read, then applied my best guess at what emotions would be difficult to fake as scum. Your attitude would be pretty easy, in my opinion.

It looks like you've been in five completed games, correct? Can you cite an example of this being faked easily or effectively?
-M

[Ultimate Despair]

It's pretty angry arrogance, that's for sure. I took into account what I'd read, then applied my best guess at what emotions would be difficult to fake as scum. Your attitude would be pretty easy, in my opinion.

Also, please provide specific examples of what you consider "angry arrogance" from my posting, as opposed to "contemptuous arrogance", "regular arrogance", etc (and by specific examples I mean quotes, preferably with explanations of what you're seeing). You've represented that you've done enough work to tone-read me, this shouldn't be difficult for you to provide.
-M

[Superhans]

well I thought she would flip scum, tbh.

So essentially you were so sure of Moz flipping scum that you didn't worry about a sketchy-looking sheep vote cast right before your own?

-M

i didnt' see the vote, i thought i made myself clear that it was an accident i immediately regretted.

[Superhans]

also you show zero emotion after mishammering FC, you don't even apologise for it in the following post.

[Superhans]

seems hypocritical to say the least.

[Superhans]

It's pretty angry arrogance, that's for sure. I took into account what I'd read, then applied my best guess at what emotions would be difficult to fake as scum. Your attitude would be pretty easy, in my opinion.

Also, please provide specific examples of what you consider "angry arrogance" from my posting, as opposed to "contemptuous arrogance", "regular arrogance", etc (and by specific examples I mean quotes, preferably with explanations of what you're seeing). You've represented that you've done enough work to tone-read me, this shouldn't be difficult for you to provide.
-M

this is effectively an impossible task, to find alternative situations to apply to this scenario. usually importing alternate game situations convulates the situation.

i don't think it is reasonable to excpect Doom to dredge through threads trying to find an example, especially, as you pointed out, he is a newer player.

[Superhans]

@Revan,
You've been playing in your other game, y not this one?

[Ultimate Despair]

i didnt' see the vote, i thought i made myself clear that it was an accident i immediately regretted.

Maybe. You do understand why skepticism is reasonable here correct?

also you show zero emotion after mishammering FC, you don't even apologise for it in the following post.

1) It was Junko who did it, so it's not like it's my fuckup
2) It was multiple days afterward, since the thread was locked
3) Why do you equate emotion and apologizing? And for that matter, what were your feelings and mindset after you realized that you'd accidentally hammered?

K nm she is L0

and then nothing. Did you go out and take a break? Anxiously await the flip? Wait and see what everyone else had to say?

this is effectively an impossible task, to find alternative situations to apply to this scenario. usually importing alternate game situations convulates the situation.

i don't think it is reasonable to excpect Doom to dredge through threads trying to find an example, especially, as you pointed out, he is a newer player.

I asked him to find examples of this tone from MY posting. He clearly represented that such examples exist. It should not be difficult for him to provide said examples with explanations of what he's seen from me that explicitly fits into that paradigm he described.

I also asked him to find ONE example of this being easily or effectively faked by scum. He said that it was easy for scum to do, this is either a nothing statement (because there's no evidence behind it and it's an intellectually lazy "well I think it'd be easy") or he's seen it before at least once and can cite.

-M

[doomfeathers]

It's pretty angry arrogance, that's for sure. I took into account what I'd read, then applied my best guess at what emotions would be difficult to fake as scum. Your attitude would be pretty easy, in my opinion.

It looks like you've been in five completed games, correct? Can you cite an example of this being faked easily or effectively?
-M

It's pretty angry arrogance, that's for sure. I took into account what I'd read, then applied my best guess at what emotions would be difficult to fake as scum. Your attitude would be pretty easy, in my opinion.

Also, please provide specific examples of what you consider "angry arrogance" from my posting, as opposed to "contemptuous arrogance", "regular arrogance", etc (and by specific examples I mean quotes, preferably with explanations of what you're seeing). You've represented that you've done enough work to tone-read me, this shouldn't be difficult for you to provide.
-M

Can you possibly be serious? You've posted nothing that wasn't antagonizing. Are you seriously asking me to hunt down posts so you can nitpick about whether it was anger, contempt, or arrogance? What difference could it possibly make? It's SCUMMY. DEAL WITH IT.

That's in response to 987.

[doomfeathers]

But yeah, I don't see what difference it makes. Generally, being antagonistic is not something you have to fake as scum.

[lucca261]

I'm here, guys. reading.

[Ultimate Despair]

Can you possibly be serious? You've posted nothing that wasn't antagonizing. Are you seriously asking me to hunt down posts so you can nitpick about whether it was anger, contempt, or arrogance? What difference could it possibly make? It's SCUMMY. DEAL WITH IT.

So you're saying you can't? I mean, you've represented that you are capable of tonally reading me, and then when asked to provide examples of what you claim to be seeing, you decide that you can't be bothered?

As far as "nitpicking" about it, congratulations, you have discovered how to play mafia. People challenge each others' assumptions, demand evidence, challenge how they're interpreting evidence, etc.

Here's how things have gone down between us from MY perspective, in terms of your last 9 posts (which for the most part have been to and/or about me):

1) Thread consensus seems to be top suspects inside (Hans, me, revan). You sheep that consensus in 942, while at the same time expressing basically zero interest in WHICH of those three is actual scum (which is super weird given that we're in MYLO)

2) I push on that and you state the obvious in 955

it's still important that we pick the right lynch.

while at the same time not especially doing anything to pick that correct lynch

3) In 958 you question my tonal tell data relating to arrogance, and dispute that you'd acknowledged that my read of your question (i.e. that you wanted me to hunt down those posts) was reasonable

4) In 965 you acknowledge that my point was in fact reasonable (unless "oops, misread" was ALSO empty)

5) In 977 you state that you failed to see any emotion from me other than anger and FOS me (you also state that I'm trying to use anger as evidence of townishness, which isn't really correct, and even if it was, would be pretty NAI, unless you think that town players can't or won't try to demonstrate that are town for reasons that THEY think are accurate even if you disagree)

6) In 980 you acknowledge that in fact there could be arrogance, and declare that this isn't hard to fake as scum (without evidence supporting this btw)

7) In 985 you declare that the only arrogance I've shown is angry arrogance. You continue declaring that this is easy to fake as scum, again without any evidence.

8) In 995 you simplify our conversation by redirecting it to the statement that I've only been antagonistic (which isn't true), and use that as an excuse to not bother providing evidence to support your assertions, especially notable given your earlier

@UD: Whatever. I still think that's a lot of fuss to avoid a short summary.

to me

9) In 996 you declare that antagonism is natural as scum, which is again not actually the case (most scum tend to be more accommodating, passive, and UTR, though obviously there are exceptions).


This is not a set of posts that inspires confidence that you are making an actual effort to figure out my alignment. Instead, it makes me believe that you are choosing to be lazy about it and (if town) just decide to believe what you WANT to believe, and (if scum) hide behind pretending to do this. Do you understand why I see things this way? Have I misinterpreted you? Have I treated your postings to/about me unfairly? If not, then maybe you should bother doing some of the legwork that would demonstrate that this is a real read of yours and not BS that you're using excuses to avoid really getting into the weeds of.

-M

[Superhans]

"Junko did it, its not my fuckup", this is such a bad excuse it may actaully be a town tell. idc

who

hammered, it was one of you from within that hydra.
my mindset after the hammer was, as iv said, regret, as presumably you two felt if you are town.

[...]

this is effectively an impossible task, to find alternative situations to apply to this scenario. usually importing alternate game situations convulates the situation.

i don't think it is reasonable to excpect Doom to dredge through threads trying to find an example, especially, as you pointed out, he is a newer player.

I asked him to find examples of this tone from MY posting. He clearly represented that such examples exist. It should not be difficult for him to provide said examples with explanations of what he's seen from me that explicitly fits into that paradigm he described.

I also asked him to find ONE example of this being easily or effectively faked by scum. He said that it was easy for scum to do, this is either a nothing statement (because there's no evidence behind it and it's an intellectually lazy "well I think it'd be easy") or he's seen it before at least once and can cite.

-M

the quote of me (in orange) is removing the quote that you made:

It's pretty angry arrogance, that's for sure. I took into account what I'd read, then applied my best guess at what emotions would be difficult to fake as scum. Your attitude would be pretty easy, in my opinion.

Also, please provide specific examples of what you consider "angry arrogance" from my posting, as opposed to "contemptuous arrogance", "regular arrogance", etc (and by specific examples I mean quotes, preferably with explanations of what you're seeing). You've represented that you've done enough work to tone-read me, this shouldn't be difficult for you to provide.

-M

this is effectively an impossible task, to find alternative situations to apply to this scenario. usually importing alternate game situations convulates the situation.

i don't think it is reasonable to excpect Doom to dredge through threads trying to find an example, especially, as you pointed out, he is a newer player.

that specifically contradicts what you say in 994:

you say in 994 that you want an example of 'this' (sounding like you just wanted an example of anger emotion), but you actually said that you wanted very specific and objective definitions of anger: 'angry arrogance', 'contemptuous arrogance' and my favourite of all 'regular arrogance' (?) and you have the cheek to suggest that "it shouldn't be difficult for you to provide"

i certainly wouldn't be able to come up with your 50 shades of arrogance, and equally i don't think it would help this game at all, you're choosing a route of debate that will convulate this thread and be inherently non-fruitful.

Can

YOU

provide an example of these different types of arrogance? no. probably not. you probably can't even define a suitable definition for them either.