Open 671: Greater Idea - OVER

[-Grey-]

{Vaxkiller, Spade Ace}
{Gamma Emerald}
{Not Mafia, bangthemafia}
{Kop}
{davesaz, alban}

VOTE: alban

Did some reviewing of bang's ISO after his recent posts.

He can live for now.

Edit.

[alban]

My reads so far. More for myself so that I don't have to re-read:
Town
Vax (reasonable, logical), NM (looks like in a tvt with RC)

Null
Bang (mixed reactions on his posts), Dave, Kop & Gamma (no clear reads on them), Grey (illogical, selective blindness towards Spade's scumtells. scumleaning)

Scum
Spade (very opportunistic. especially with buddying and jumping the votes wherever the wagon is going)

VOTE: Spade

Will elaborate in 24 hours.

Pedit: You are an idiot, Grey.

[-Grey-]

Pedit: You are an idiot, Grey.

This implies a townread, which does not mesh with your reads list.

I'm only an idiot if I'm town. If I'm voting you as scum, I'm pushing an agenda.

[alban]

You not analysing the

glaring inconsistencies

in Spade's behaviour is the main reason why I am scumleaning on you right now. Your scumhunt is appearing only selectively 'correct'. You are affronting

selectively

, and letting others go scot-free. The natural response when faced with an aggressive maniac like you is that people become defensive and forget what they were asking you in the first place. You have always escaped (in this game) answering questions by posing a tirade on the questioner, creating melodrama, or ignoring and deflecting it entirely by questioning someone else.

To summarise my case on you (and by association on Spade):
1. On day 1, I asked you a question. You

evaded

it multiple times. You got back to me only after I voted for you. You didn't even bother to answer. You just created drama. Have already mentioned this in 375.

2. 533: Towards the end of day 1, I made a comment of a few lines. Your response?

TL;DR

.

3. On day 2, 559, 619: Bang has already asked you a question multiple times, and you haven't even bothered to answer. You are talking about him to others like Vax, Spade and Gamma, but you

aren't answering

him.

4. 565: You didn't read Bang's posts. But you

voted for Spade

for not reading Bang's post 561. And on top of everything, you are declaring that as if that bravado is something that only a townie can project.

5.

Spade's behaviour

around Charl's wagon and beginning of day 2 doesn't sit right with me. I was gonna elaborate on this tonight. But let's briefly go over it.
- He votes for me in 395. Read his reason. Coz I am suspecting you and I didn't give links to the posts.
- He doesn't say anything for next 90 posts. Resurfaces in 485 in which he votes for Charl. No questions asked, no clarifications sought. Is it a coincidence that this is immediately after your vote on Charl in 484? Another thing. He votes first. And then he asks a question. If he is not sure, he should wait for the answer. If he is sure, he shouldn't feel the need to ask the question. My guess, he is keeping a door open to escape the wagon in case it doesn't reach majority.
- His next post is on day 2, an innocuous question in 549. Directed to you. By this time, this must be clear to you that he is trying desperately to buddy you. You vote for Dave in 540. Spade shheps you in 553.

6. So yeah,

Spade sheeps you multiple times

(votes or contemplating votes on Charl, Dave, Bang, me). When you ask him, he says he trusts you. Knowing Spade in real life, let me tell you this. Spade has a mind of his own. He would not say that he sheeped someone coz he believes their reads. So his behaviour is quite unlike himself.
That's on him. Forget that. If someone sheeps you like that, you should question them back. Why don't you ask him why does he think you are right? You have time to go through my p-edits, but you don't have brains to see through his probable agenda? So yeah, something is appearing more and more

fake in your scumhunting

.

And yet I have put you in the null zone coz I think there's a possibility that

you could be a VI

.

At this point in the game, given your style of play and the way you are tunnelled about certain people including me, I don't think it even matters. You are most likely to say TL;DR and skip this post. On my end, if this continues, I am most likely to vote for you (from the null pile) if it came to that.

[bangthemafia]

Can you just think of and post reasons why you are voting for me. If you dont, I have nothing more to say or defend.

Who is scum? Who is town? Reads list, please.

I'm seeing some effort put in on defending yourself, but I'm not seeing any interest from you on solving the game.

Really? Thats my style. I tend to get focussed on people. I was focussed right now on Spade and I gave my reasons. But what about you? Read your ISO once. You have just given reads list. Not given much reasoning for the reads nor for your frequent vote shifts. SO I dont need a certificate of approval from you for my style.

But still your point taken, mainly coz I keep feeling you are more of a trolling arrogant townie than an aggressive scum.

So here is my list-
Towniest to scummiest
Strong townlean- Alban, Grey, Gamma
Not sure- Not Mafia, Vax , Kop,
Scumlean- Dave < Spade

My only doubt arises from post 589

@alban, what do you think of #589. You think a scum!Spade does that kind of emotional appeal?

[alban]

589 is not that surprising by itself, but just 10 posts after 579, it's definitely surprising. He puts you and me in the same category as scums. And then something happens, and he appeals to you, but not to me. I am wondering what was it? Was it coz you were posting and I was absent since day 2. Dunno. He should explain that though.

I am confused about Spade coz the more I think, the more I think this is not at all how he plays. My overall impression of Spade is this (and this is not necessarily negative): I think he has researched a lot about how to play on mafiascum and his style is also shaped a lot by the games he has played here. I also think he is playing a lot by the book, trying to play more as is expected of a player and less as himself, and has generated a style for himself that is markedly different from the way he used to play with us (which I think was way too effective than the way he is playing now). That means I (and you too I am guessing) have no handle on him. It's possible that that's the reason I am finding him scummy.

On the other hand, there are still many points about him this game that have nothing to do with style, and more to do with the content and intent of his posts. For example, starting with his initial vote on RC (for his self-vote) in 346, trying to implicate me in 353 for suggesting RC could be frustrated, the language of denial of self-voting in 359, and blatantly sheeping Grey throughout. He finding me scummy coz of the reasons he mentions in the earlier posts as well as in 393 and 394 are too simplistic for him. Just as I know him, he knows my game.

This is why I am confused about him. But I am still voting for him coz I would expect more from a player of his level, regardless of whether he is scum or town. For someone to playing a markedly different (and simplistic) game, there's more possibility of him being a scum than town.

[-Grey-]

We have us a dipole, folks.

I am pretty sure that one of Spade/alban is scum, and alban has convinced me to lynch Spade first to resolve it.

VOTE: Spade_Ace

And alban, I'll address your post shortly. For now I'll just point out that not agreeing with somebody's play does not make them a VI. Just because you don't know wtf I'm doing doesn't mean I don't.

[-Grey-]

Your scumhunt is appearing only selectively 'correct'.

Everyone is afflicted by this little thing called 'bias'. Even you. Yes, yes. I know. It can be a shock to learn that one is not born a Vulcan.

I'm not the only one that is 'selectively affronting'. Every single player weighs the actions of others and chooses which ones are worth addressing and which ones aren't.

By your own admission, there are others not questioning me. Are all of them scum, too? So, that is a bullshit reason to scumlean someone.

[-Grey-]

To summarise my case on you (and by association on Spade):

Shit like this is unnecessary and only serves to alienate you in my reads.

Preflip associations are terrible.

[-Grey-]

On day 1, I asked you a question. You evaded it multiple times. You got back to me only after I voted for you. You didn't even bother to answer.

Was the question one I deemed to be stupid? If so, that's probably why.

[-Grey-]

2. 533: Towards the end of day 1, I made a comment of a few lines. Your response? TL;DR.

I summarized your post and pointed out why it looks scummy as hell.

So?

[-Grey-]

3. On day 2, 559, 619: Bang has already asked you a question multiple times, and you haven't even bothered to answer.

Embedding questions to me in walls is an excellent way to ensure that they're ignored.

Wall posts are a bitch to work with on my phone, so 99% of the time I don't bother because it's not worth the hassle and only results in selective quoting and creating a post storm in response. Like this.

[-Grey-]

4. 565: You didn't read Bang's

post

. But you voted for Spade for not reading Bang's post 561. And on top of everything, you are declaring that as if that bravado is something that only a townie can project.

Fixed.

Bang's post was his case on Spade. Spade ignoring a case on himself struck me as scummy, yes.

And I make no assumptions about other people's playstyle. You are simply slinging shade about that.

[-Grey-]

- He votes for me in 395. Read his reason. Coz I am suspecting you and I didn't give links to the posts.

To be perfectly honest, 199 & 212 were a couple streaming piles of shit.

[-Grey-]

- He doesn't say anything for next 90 posts. Resurfaces in 485 in which he votes for Charl. No questions asked, no clarifications sought. Is it a coincidence that this is immediately after your vote on Charl in 484?

Stuff like this is why I changed my mind about Space, FTR.

Once you mentioned this, I checked Spades' history and noticed that he had in fact been active on the site between the two posts, which suggested that he was strategically not participating in the thread.

[-Grey-]

Another thing. He votes first. And then he asks a question. If he is not sure, he should wait for the answer. If he is sure, he shouldn't feel the need to ask the question. My guess, he is keeping a door open to escape the wagon in case it doesn't reach majority.

That's just reaching. Well, mainly the

last

sentence is reaching.

Spade pretty much locked himself in on the wagon when he replied to my response to his question.

[-Grey-]

- His next post is on day 2, an innocuous question in 549. Directed to you.

Why do you consider his question innocuous when he's advocating a lynch on you and your townread?

Do you know what innocuous means? Because your use of the word suggests you don't.

[-Grey-]

By this time, this must be clear to you that he is trying desperately to buddy you. You vote for Dave in 540. Spade shheps you in 553.

Cooperative players are much easier to work with than assholes that sling shade and look for excuses to lynch me.

You don't like me working with Spade? Maybe you should stop making excuses to consider me scum because that sure as hell doesn't make me want to work with you.

[-Grey-]

That's on him. Forget that. If someone sheeps you like that, you should question them back.

I'll work with whomever is willing to work with me when I have players trying to push their own agenda against me.

I will not sit back and be targeted for a mislynch by a scumread.

[-Grey-]

And yet I have put you in the null zone coz I think there's a possibility that you could be a VI.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=69444 - died n1 because I softed cop to draw the NK. I was a VT.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=69550 - took a widely scumread slot and turned it into obvtown for a scum sweep

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=69517 - fake countered a scum fakeclaim and ate the NK, allowing the real cop to get her results.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=69704 - even though I was run up on d1, I caught two scum before I died n2.

So, you can take that VI ad hom and fucking shove it. I'd you want something from me, try a little courtesy. It'll go a hell of a lot farther.

[alban]

Courtesy? Rich coming from you, who refused to engage in a conversation till a few days back. Leaving aside the content of your posts, your language is courteous? You can't make random statements about courtesy to suit your narrative. Everyone knows that I tried it with you, you refused to show it to me, so now idfc. Stop playing the victim here. tbh, it doesn't matter. Get to the game. Let's get the job done.

[Spade_Ace]

- He doesn't say anything for next 90 posts. Resurfaces in 485 in which he votes for Charl. No questions asked, no clarifications sought. Is it a coincidence that this is immediately after your vote on Charl in 484?

Stuff like this is why I changed my mind about Space, FTR.

Once you mentioned this, I checked Spades' history and noticed that he had in fact been active on the site between the two posts, which suggested that he was strategically not participating in the thread.

@grey if you had checked the 'place on the site' where i was active between the two posts, you will realise how much more imp it was that i participated there. At that point that was more imp to me than this game.

@alban and bang let me try to understand your case.

1.

I am playing unusually

: this is my 6th game on MS and am following other games too. Could that have influenced the way i play the game? Possible. Also, I am looking to change my playstyle. I love playing as scum, but being scumread on day1 in most games is no fun. As town, i dont care much about being scumread. So, am i looking to change my meta. Yes.

2.

Sheeping grey

: Why did i vote for charloux?. He was the obvious vote at that time. There was no town motivation in his actions. Why did i vote and then ask a question? I wasnt confused on whether he was a scum or not, i was confused on why he chose RC. The answer seemed obvious once Grey cleared it.

Why did i sheep grey's Dave vote?. I hadnt ISOed Lowell. I asked grey the reason for his vote. And the reason he gave was satisfactory enough to build a wagon.

Would i sheep again? I dont mind sheeping grey and gamma as they are my two townreads. But of course i wouldnt blindly do it.

3.

Reason for scumreading you both

: Could you blame me after our last game? I was defending you both totally even when you two ganged up against me. And in the end you both turned out to be the scum. This game resembles a lot from the last game. Esp the nonsensical questions like, 'would a town!spade do that?', 'would a scum!spade do this'. Truly fed up of that.

Also i end up thinking people who tunnel me when am town are scum. You could say it is omgus. But since am town, i feel people targeting me are trying to get an easy mislynch.

If there are any Content related reason for your scumread on me apart from the once i have explained, let me know. Would be willing to answer. But am not going to reply any more to meta related stuff. That sucks.

[Spade_Ace]

@grey am curious. What was it that alban said, that made you change your read on me, from top townread to top scumread. I dont think their case had much content for such a change.

Also i dont quite agree with some alban's and bang's opinion that buddying up is wrong. It is perfectly fine to try and make a townbloc, so that we can move our sum reads forward.

Anyway. These are my reads so far.

{Gamma, Grey}
{Vax}
{NM, Kop}
{Alban, bang}
{Dave}

And yes the people whom i townread, are the people with whom i have similar reads

[alban]

Mention reasons for your top scum and townreads.

[-Grey-]

@grey if you had checked the 'place on the site' where i was active between the two posts, you will realise how much more imp it was that i participated there.

If this game isn't worth your time, replace out.

Selective activity is scummy.