OPEN 663: STACK THE DECK (GAME OVER)

[Desperado]

zzz

The only way you could do that is with a mod post after you're dead, so if that happens you can read who my 3rd scum would be from the dead thread.

[Desperado]

Contrary to ThinkBig's broken record, I don't just sling random shit at people and hope something sticks.

[Desperado]

@Desperado - I'd like you to sell me on ThingBig being mafia in the best way you can. The logic you presented yesterday still doesn't do anywhere near enough for me alone and I actually find your comments re; your stance on Kop very disingenuous today, you're massively over-exaggerating it.

No I'm not. I tried to explain to you more than once why Kop's actions were consistent (and that even if you didn't buy that, that inconsistency didn't necessarily make him scum). You didn't agree with me, and that's fine, but don't sugarcoat what happened.

At this point I don't care if you think my case wasn't good. Nothing has changed, ThinkBig hasn't done ANYTHING except sheep you once you took him off the table. He's just fucking scum, dude.

[Desperado]

And desperado is tunneling someone I believe to be town and also won't reconsider his reads and won't give reads on the rest of living players - also there's just something off in general about him... I think he could rather easily be scum (as in, that's an easy read for me to make)

This isn't true. I've given reads on every single player alive.

[Desperado]

I've just been consistently ignored since about the time regfan replaced in.

[Desperado]

@Dunnstral - The point about Supers read on Dave is a solid one and I'd like for him to explain his read there too. I think Desperados tunnel on ThingBig makes some sense as both alignments; As town wanting to go back to his original scum read upon a town flip or as scum wanting to find an easy avenue to push that doesn't create new enemies. It's his attitude while doing such and his comments (and lack thereof) about other players while doing it which I find highly concerning so I agree with you there.

Seriously Reg, I know you're reading my posts so why are you just making this shit up??? I have made substantial comments on every slot. I have good reasons for town and scum reading everyone alive. I told you guys Kop was real yesterday, and then the other claimed PR got shot. Literally nothing has changed from the middle of D2.

[Desperado]

Interesting night kill.

but yeah im onto something i think so

if im not here to remind yall about kop in the morning please revisit his last few posts of the day

, completely unacceptable imo. If Kop/AH are both town I think

Gamma/Dave/Alisae

This is damming. Why would ssbm be targeted by the mafia over the innocent child?

HOS on Kop and Gamma. I really don't like how AH derailed gamma's wagon. I'm willing to vote for either kop or gamma.

Ya, Think is scum framing Kop with the SSBM kill.

Kop only?
FoS Desperado

...did you read what he said?

He thinks you're scum because AH derailed your wagon. He thinks Kop is scum because SSBM is dead.

So yes, just Kop.

Unvote
Vote: Kop

@ Reg: I think it was the former and I think Hans has been snowing me all day

Can you run me through your vote placement on Kop over Hans in that case? I mean I certainly don't mind it, I just want to hear your thought process behind it since it's not walked through inside your ISO. Also did you ever take a quick look at TB's meta (If so before or after I replaced in)? Would also like your read on Dunn & Alisea so we can discuss the similarities/differences between our reads there when I'm done reading them.

I'm not ready to flip my interpretation of the game state completely and I don't want to vote dave or Ali. I think they're town, I think scum really thought I was the traitor, and that's why a wagon never materialized on me despite all of the traitor talk d1.

I didn't look at his meta and haven't since you replaced in, no. I'm taking your word for it.

For Ali, see above. For Dunn, I can't really point to anything specific, I just feel town emanating from his posts and have all game.

Why did I select Kop over any else? Let's see...

Gamma - PR claim
Ali - Traitor push
Dave - Ditto
Dunn - Town
Real - Town
ThinkBig - Not happening today

That leaves Kop and Superhans. Don't really think I need to explain why I would make that choice.

Yeh, but I don't think the scum case on ThinkBig is bollocks, just I feel more confident lynching Kop today. Your latest scumpush on TB is not compelling.

You still feel confident lynching a claimed roleblocker?

@regfan. Good points. I looked through his ISO and not once did he mention SRing ssbm. He did, however, vote for and SR Gamma. Why would he RB ssbm over Gamma?

I don't want to lynch Realeo

I want to lynch realeo. He's used doctor and cop emojis already, I think he's trying to setup fakeclaim crumbs and needs rope

also if maf didn't recruit the traitor he could be making obvious PR crumbs to try to get his team to shoot him and recruit him if he's the traitor

These are baseless accusations. They hold no truth or any argument that can hold any water, using them emojis doesn't exactly have a warrant to lynch him, based on that.

As for your second point, that's wrong. If I'm recalling correctly, if they shoot the traitor, he dies. I once had the traitor role and mafia shot me, and I died. I didn't join them.

I'd choose to push a lynch between you, or Superhans right now.

AH what's your opinion on Gamma's vote on Desperado, and Desperado's sudden swap from voting Gamma to you?

Desperado, you switched from voting Gamma to voting the player defending Gamma pretty abruptly, can you further explain both of those votes because right now it looks like you're getting onto easy wagons

VOTE: Desperado

@Desperado - Yeah, looked like really bad reasoning to me which is why I'm asking him questions. Didn't see anything specific about Thinkbig that would have made AH pick him off the Gamma wagon which makes me think his motivation there was to derail the Gamma wagon, rather than to find scum on it. I guess your vote makes sense, and I was going to vote AH when I read his TB case and looked into the votes on Gamma, but then I saw you vote AH and that steadies my hand a bit because your vote was naked and had just swapped from the leading (but losing traction) Gamma wagon onto the rapidly growing AH wagon. Anyways, as I write this post I realize there's better reason to vote for him being scummy than there is to not vote him because his wagon is moving fast.

VOTE: Antihuman

Why does Desperados vote steady your hand because it was naked?

You mentioned before about getting onto easy wagons, haven't you done the same?

I still think Kop is real but any cache I had in this game evaporated a while ago so w/e

Not taking at least one of daytalk, recruitment, or the JOAT is just bizarre to me. You can do without the BP and the Role Cop if you aren't taking a lot of power, and I can understand either doing both recruitment and daytalk or neither, but the JOAT deals with every power role the town can potentially get and is extremely powerful.

I think Kop's claim makes sense, I understand why he chose SSBM over Gamma, and I also don't think claiming roleblocked on a living player is nearly as dangerous as you've been suggesting, especially with Gamma having already outed; that leaves only one role left (tracker) that could counterclaim Kop's roleblock. If anything, I think Kop as scum would understand that claiming a block on the dead is going to look suspicious and, already at L-1, it would be optimal to take the 1/7 chance that he claims to have blocked a tracker with a result by accident.

@Desp - I personally consider the JOAT very weak in this setup, it's only 2 1-shot abilities and using them optimally is difficult to do. In regards to Kop claiming to roleblock SSBM I think at the moment it's less fear of what other claims there might have been (Because if he's scum he knows there's no other) but the fact that he genuinely

couldn't

claim a roleblock on a living player; he would have to explain why he never voted or stated a scum read on the player coming into D2 where he voted Gamma.

AH flipped traitor and everything changed.

I had them as town but I got paranoid over night so I wanted to make sure.

Etc. etc. etc.

Do you often find it difficult to explain night actions as scum?

And if Kop is real as I suspect then nothing is confirmed, which is why I would have rathered lynching outside of the claims.

[Desperado]

When I voted Kop, Hans was one of my strongest townreads. After Kop's claim and Hans did his about face on ThinkBig, that changed. I consistently defended Kop, said multiple times he was real, and that his actions were consistent.

[Desperado]

You have made no mention of Nydus today and minimal mention of him yesterday.
You have made no real mention of Realeo today at all.
You have very little thoughts on Dunn out in the thread at the moment.
You have limited thoughts on Dave.

The only people I can agree you've elaborated somewhat into today is ThingBig & SuperHans.

Nydus is Alisae and I am the originator of "Alisae wouldn't call me out and push me as traitor as scum."
Realeo has been town the entire game. I haven't wavered on this.
Dunn has been town the entire game. I haven't wavered on this.
Dave is town for the same reason Alisae is.

?????????????????????

[Desperado]

I voted him, he claimed, I continuously defended him until he was lynched.

^This is 100% fact.

[Desperado]

I'd already resigned myself to his lynch in 1544 and I STILL made another post defending him.

[Desperado]

Even though, as scum, I would have chosen one power

specifically for that situation

.

[Desperado]

Then lynch me! I've been 100% transparent with my reads all game. I have consistently pushed my viewpoint and tried to get my scum reads lynched. I don't care if you don't like it.

[Desperado]

The bolded is a big exaggeration; you had 4-5 posts where you disagreed with some of the reasoning presented for him being scum via his role claim and had a singular post where you called him town, that's the extent of your "defending him". And what you would/wouldn't have done as scum re; picks this setup is irrelevant given you replaced in thus would have had no decision on the matter. The problem I have here is that your play today looks like an attempt to grab town-cred from the Kop flip by defending him when the majority of the time you were defending him via him being a PR/ not buying the PRscumcase rather than actually town reading him.

You'll never see it that way but that was a serious townslip on my part.

[Desperado]

Reg, what you see is what you get.

Also, I missed this earlier, but when you say things like "I've seen scum post things like this before, it reads like unnatural confidence" it's almost like we've never even played before.

[Desperado]

I'll get to my thoughts about the last 11 pages later, I'm gonna go to bed actually pretty soon.
But yeah, I'm just gonna leave this here
VOTE: Desperado
Obvious Traitor

I'll get to my thoughts about the last 11 pages later, I'm gonna go to bed actually pretty soon.
But yeah, I'm just gonna leave this here
VOTE: Desperado
Obvious Traitor

So do you still think Antihuman is scum?

Ye.

I'll get to my thoughts about the last 11 pages later, I'm gonna go to bed actually pretty soon.
But yeah, I'm just gonna leave this here
VOTE: Desperado
Obvious Traitor

Desperado obv Traitor, maybe...

But Desperado + MariaR -> traitor... I don'k think so.

What are you talking about

What does MariaR have to do with it

Oh no I'm found scum in 155 posts
...so scary

This. I basicly saw this and thought traitor. Yes it's probably mocking TB, but Traitors want to make it very obvious to their scumteam that they are the traitor. You seriously have no idea how obvious they will be just to show that they are the traitor.

Just realized I've been reading but not posting.
In retrospect I think MariaR did indeed crumb traitor. Too late at night to dig further but I can vote at least.
VOTE: Desperado

The strength of the push is irrelevant.

Just realized I've been reading but not posting.
In retrospect I think MariaR did indeed crumb traitor. Too late at night to dig further but I can vote at least.
VOTE: Desperado

This post does not come from scum.

[Desperado]

Alisae brings it up, Dave is like "Ya, great catch!" and votes it. That's town through and through.

[Desperado]

1) It makes a lot more sense for him and Ali to be town who think they found a scumslip
2) Other players reacted to them pushing me as traitor in ways that I consider more likely to be scum.

[Desperado]

Since British people are poetic and poem are enemy of foreign speaker, your point is?

His point was that I didn't defend Kop hard enough; he just ignored (oh no, playing the victim again!) the other posts where I did explain with clarity why I believed Kop was real when no one else offered even token resistance.

But no, I'm scummy because I'm trying to take too much credit. Great job, good effort.

[Desperado]

Like, both of my scumreads sheep the IC on a bad PR lynch and I'm supposed to sit here and pretend like I need to reevaluate or present a case? No.

[Desperado]

Link them m8 I must have missed them

seriously, bro?

seriously?

[Desperado]

how many times do i need to quote the same fucking posts

[Desperado]

did you just ignore the entire back and forth reg and I had on it?

i seriously doubt it

considering you probably pulled that 1544 quote from the string of posts in 2008 that you are now asking me to quote yet again

[Desperado]

Kop claims in 1311. I catch up and unvote/vote back to ThinkBig in 1327. Then Hans and I get in to an extended argument, I vote him, he says he's still fine lynching Kop and in 1376 I question this.

Then Reg says there's a serious flaw in his claim in 1384, we talk about it, and 1397 and 1399 are both attempts to defend Kop. Then we mass claim which takes a couple pages and regfan basically reiterates 1384 in 1453, to which I quote 1397 and 1399; Regfan says my points were "fairly worthless." Kop is at three votes now, then Hans and ThinkBig vote in consecutive posts to put him back to L-1, which is what I see when I come back and post 1544. Despite all of this, I try

one more time

in 1557 and 1570 to stop the lynch and Reg shoots it down again.

I went above and beyond what would have been necessary to gain whatever towncred Reg thinks I was trying to get here rather than, you know, NOT being the only dissenting voice (and getting scumread for that the following day anyway!).

[Desperado]

just sitting here

waiting to lynch scum

[Desperado]

@ Hans: I probably ignored it because I'm done quoting myself in this game. And your insistence on "if X, then Y" and "minus X and Y, Z" questions is scummy.

[Desperado]

Desperado you have nothing to quote. Answer the question for the first time.

[Desperado]

1) I have stated

multiple times

what my reads are and why.
2) I'm not going to play your dumb game of "who is the top town outside of your real top town?" because all that does is benefit scum.

[Desperado]

You have definitely not mentioned who you think town is.

[Desperado]

You basically have two options. You can ISO me and ctrl+f "town" and then just see what you find. Or you can ctrl+f the player list individually and find my read on them that way.

Your call.

[Desperado]

If you aren't gonna reveal cos it helps scum, y have u already revealed your top Town reads multiple times already?

Wrong. I have stated who I think is town multiple times.

[Desperado]

Like, I even said

in that sentence

what I had stated multiple times: my reads.

[Desperado]

Better get comfy then

[Desperado]

Read what Reg said again. I haven't talked about those players

today

, because absolutely nothing has changed for me from yesterday. We lynched a town PR over my objections with both of my scumreads on his wagon and then the other town PR got shot.

[Desperado]

Ya, insult me as a player. That's a surefire way to motivate me!





















ohwait

[Desperado]

Because they aren't basic questions. They are you asking me to repeat myself, again.

I have made it abundantly clear what my read is on every player in the game. You asking me to break that into further tiers is scum motivated. I am not going to do it.

[Desperado]

The

only reason

you would need to know who my top town are outside of my top town is to help inform your nightkills.

[Desperado]

cool then we're done here

[Desperado]

They are. You are asking me to go beyond saying who is town and give you my TOP town.

[Desperado]

*falls asleep*

[Desperado]

Yes, Hans and Think can be a team.

[Desperado]

Can you note or remember anything they said about eachother that was odd? Any instances of hard buddying or ignoring eachother?

- Hans spends the first half of D2 cheerleading my Think case
- Regfan replaces in and ThinkBig is no longer viable
- Suddenly my case is shit, Reg's case is way better, but ThinkBig still isn't town??
- Now ThinkBig is scum again, based on his D3 content, but he's voting me, even tho he's on record as Think and I not being a team

[Desperado]

You're both keeping your options open and using me as a crutch to clear the other.

[Desperado]

ThinkBig is convinced that me or Hans but not both is scum

Superhans is convinced that me or ThinkBig is scum but not both

Am I really the only person who can see this?

[Desperado]

My current impression is that Desperado is having a protest action. "You townread ThinkBig for ignoring question? I'm going to ignore question as well. If you scumread me for ignoring question, you have to scumread me for ignoring TB as well."

Who is the You in this?

[Desperado]

Are you saying I said that or...?

[Desperado]

oh ok

[Desperado]

From zero to close, about a -3.

[Desperado]

Don't know of a favorite open setup, though I've come to dislike double scum setups. I think I'm 4 for 4 getting nightkilled as third party/scum in those

For roles... I'd like to be an innocent child once, but the type that gets to choose when they reveal, or one that reveals late. Getting revealed at the start is pretty lame and kind of drives people to not contribute

Town or Scum... I dunno. I always feel like I play

really

well as scum but as town it's fun to find someone I connect with and figure out that they're town

I thought the RQS was actually pretty important and it set the stage for a lot of my reads. This was one of the townier responses, particularly the last part.

Dunn - I can't read this shit. Gun to my head town?

First things first: I'm voting desperado and if your theory has any validity and he's the traitor I'd have caught on as scum and not been voting him. Granted, I don't know much of your theory anyway.

Second: You realize scum can recruit their traitor: in 491 it seems like you're assuming there's a traitor for sure. Why is that?

This is the other side of the Ali/Dave reads--I don't think Dunnscum would respond this way.

So tb is likely town because the traitor would know who the scum team is and he went rather hard - unless he was bussing but that's pretty risky

Who were the ones saying desperado was a traitor again?

He consistently pushes this narrative the entire day and it informs a lot of his understanding of the gamestate. It reads genuine.

I don't know why people think Ah was bussing TB?

I thought he had good points there and went hard and I wouldn't be surprised if it had led to TB'S lynch. Though I still don't understand why everyone turned on AH

Like here

By the way, nobody can answer who's scum in tb is town. Nobody is even attempting to find scum. Even if tb is scum there's still another one you know

And here

I'm glad regfan is getting people off of TB

And here

The kop thing to me looks less about a dumbtell and more like he was trying to back out of his read that didn't make sense (after getting called out). Also, I think last time I saw him lurking/doing nothing like this he was scum. With that said, he got wagoned super fast/hard so that's a little suspicious, but there's only 2 mafia so it's not cause for concern I guess

I noted that while he was throwing shade on TB there, he's

still

voting gamma which itself isn't a good look as he doesn't seem to care to move his vote to who he's talking about either

I think TB is town, albeit awkward, I think there is scum pushing him; I think Alisae looks bad but I can see that's not happening, davesaz looks worse, and kop looks bad. Desperado's recent posting has me tilting my head and I feel like I should consider superhans more closely for scum

So pretty much everyone is scummy or in my sights

Even though I didn't agree with his conclusions I connected with this post because if I could understand how, if I thought TB was town, everyone looked scummy at this point.

To be honest, I'm not sure how much I buy kop's claim, this is also the second time today my lynch target has claimed a power role to avoid being lynched so I'm a bit more skeptical

Still, I guess night kills will resolve this as well? So:

VOTE: Davesaz

This is not how I would expect scum to react to Kop's claim.

@ Dunn: That would depend on how much power the scum took. You seem to be assuming that they didn't take away; why is that?

I was responding to what regfan was saying, wasn't assuming what scum would take

You serious desperado? I say for there to be 3 town prs scum would have had at LEAST 1 power of their own (which is what kop would have been assuming there)

The likely to only be 2 prs was responding to what regfan had said

If Kop is scum he doesn't need to assume anything.

No, I was talking about if he was town there - seeing gamma as goon cop shouldn't cause him concern because the only situation where he 100% can't be goon cop from his point of view is if scum didn't take any powers - which he can't assume. Scum would only need to take 1 power for that to not be a couunterclaim, which isn't unreasonable to assume

This exchange with me felt really town at the time and looks even more so on a reread.

Actually, I've got thoughts now:

VOTE: Kop

Think gamma having claimed first so not being able to say he blocked there is a pretty good theory, this looks more like scum fakeclaiming with a lowish amount of prs

VOTE: Davesaz

I don't think Dunstrall is scum on my wagon, regfan is confirmed town, if I had to choose scum on that wagon, Davesaz, Desperado or Superhans, it's within those 3.

Not sure where these thoughts come from, looks like trying to confuse people with his iso rather than figuring things out...

@Kop why don't you think I'd be scum on your wagon? Why is it between Davesaz, Desperado, Superhans?

Of the people who unvoted Kop because of the claim and then revoted because of your arguments in favor of his lynch, this was the least scummy.

[Desperado]

Reg, I think we just read this game in fundamentally different ways.

How on earth does ThinkBig voting Dunnstral for bullshit while maintaining Antihuman as his #1 scum read point to them not being buddies? It was clear that he never believed in that Dunn vote and never planned on seeing it through anywhere. He even leaves Dunnstral out of his next post, a full reads list, and assigns his "scummy behavior" to me instead.

And before you say anything, I still think Dunnstral is town, I just think you have been making errors in your analysis all game and you aren't adjusting. This is two days in a row you've removed one of my scumreads from your scum pool entirely and I don't get.

[Desperado]

you could at least try and not lie

[Desperado]

Reg, you're fucking it up again. Dunnstral is town.

[Desperado]

lol

[Desperado]

good job, great effort

[Desperado]

real hard hitting shit there thinkbig

[Desperado]

I mean, it makes sense when you consider that he was the only one to defend TB before you replaced in, he has been consistently defending TB as town, and TB's play has been the same literally the entire game so it doesn't make any sense to be scumreading him now if he was townreading him before.

[Desperado]

sigh, whatever

you'll be doing it without my vote (again)

godspeed

[Desperado]

thanks reg

[Desperado]

at least dusher's agreeableness with dunn has a trajectory.

even if thinkbig really does have a scumread on dunn, which i don't believe, i would still expect town-him to push back on his lynch given what he's said re: hans and I

btw ima leave these two quotes here:

Updated read list with explanations. I re-read the the game and a ISO'd several people to really make sure I didn't miss anything. Here's where I am.

Regfan

Gamma Emerald

Realeo

Dunnestral

Dave

Alisae

Kop

Superhans

Desperado

Spoiler: Key

Conftown

Town

LeanTown

NullTown

Null - {N}

NullScum

LeanScum

Scum

ConfScum

Spoiler: Gamma

I really wish Gamma would post more. However, from what I have seen, I am comfortable putting him in my town column. He claimed goon cop and no-one has yet to CC him. I do wish he would be more active.

I think Dunnestral is town. He comes across as genuinely trying to solve the game. I like how he is not quick to jump on easy wagons. However, his response to my wagon comes across as possible buddying. Gun to my head, I think this slot is town.

Spoiler: Alisae

This slot is still very null to me. Until we get a replacement and a claim, it will remain null.

Spoiler: Dave

Not entirely sure what to think of this slot. Gun to my head, I put him as more likely to be town than scum. I like 1424

Spoiler: Kop

Kop claimed roleblocker and claimed to have roleblocked ssbm. I am still very skeptical of his claim for the reasons I have mentioned and the reasons that regfan has mentioned. However, I do not believe he's the best lynch for the moment. Would scum!Kop have made such an obvious slip or claimed something that could obviously be pointed to as a scummy safe claim? I'm not entirely sold on the case against Kop, but I do wish he would come back and actually contribute to the game.

Just as a side note, during my V/LA and periods of low activity, even I was contributing more to the game than he was! .

Spoiler: Desperado/Superhans

I honestly think the best lynch today is either desperado or superhans. While I do not think they are scum together, I'm confident that there is at least one scum between them. Desperado's case against me was pretty much all shade throwing and trying to somehow connect me to antihuman (which I still do not understand).

Hans, on the other hand, took his arguments and sheeped it and cheerleaded his arguments. I find myself agreeing with Desperado that Hans sudden shift on me did not come from a town mindset. Yet the flip side of that, I really

really

do not like 1357.

Not once has Dunnestral given reads or explained why he reads people as town or scum.

[Desperado]

shitty ate does not work on me, thinkbig stopped trying to pretend like weeks ago IRL

[Desperado]

INTENT TO HAMMER

lmfao

[Desperado]

Nobody, except regfan and Dunnstral, addressed my fucking concern about ThinkBig is active in other game

there's nothing to address realeo

thinkbig clearly checked out of this game quite some time ago

[Desperado]

i don't understand your question about me re: thinkbig

[Desperado]

looks like it's PoE

dusher had a 5 man town bloc from the word go, basically

everything he's done has been under the assumption that reg/realeo/dusher/dave/thinkbig are all town

[Desperado]

We call this lining up lynches, and it's a 100% scum tactic.

normally ya

except the fucking IC is doing it too so

[Desperado]

U sulking Desperado?

I think concerned would be a more appropriate way to describe it.

[Desperado]

What is there to address? Reg hasn't listened to a word I've said all game. My thoughts have been "worthless," "shallow," and a variety of other things.

Of course I'm not going to be OK with his position that Dunn is scum and if he is it's with me, and if he's town then I'm basically confirmed town. I don't think that's something that I need to say out loud.

It's a lose lose situation for me. Either Dunn flips scum and I'm the next mislynch or Dunn flips town and reg's idea that I'm now confirmed town is bunk because he'd have been wrong about literally everything and then died.

[Desperado]

Reg, I don't SEE the problems you see. I've said that already.

Him being sticky with his TB townread is no different from me being sticky with my TB scumread; we interpreted the world differently entering D2 and

nothing has happened to change anything since then[/b]. You strongarmed a PR lynch and then the other PR died overnight. And now we're here.

[Desperado]

And I know you're going to say something about ThinkBig's D3 play eroding your townread and why isn't it doing the same for Dunn but the fact is ThinkBig has been playing the same way since D2 started.

[Desperado]

Reg wasn't even here D1

And I'm not discrediting everything he says

not even gonna bother with 2418 because we've been there done that

[Desperado]

well when you tell me that i should have been more persuasive d2

and i can quote multiple posts of yours where you were shoving my thinkbig case in people's faces and daring them to prove it wrong

it's like, why bother?

[Desperado]

Because when you were pushing that case down everyone's throat I had you as hard town and I don't think I was the only one; bussing at that moment would have been optimal for you.

When Reg replaced in and put the Think wagon to bed you flipped your script lickety split and all the sudden my case wasn't good enough anymore...but Think still wasn't town to you. Then he was. Then he wasn't. Then he was again, and now apparently he isn't.

[Desperado]

You think I'm scum with TB? Or is TB out of the picture for now?

My read on you is independent of my read on ThinkBig. He could be scum that you were bussing and now you see a way out with reg in the picture; he could be town that you were riding my coat tails to mislynch and now that reg won't let it happen you've reversing course with nothing to support it.

Either way, your progression does not come from town.

hey look this is me explaining all of that

in real time

[Desperado]

like hans is literally saying that

but doesn't want to lynch thinkbig anymore

??????????????

[Desperado]

Lynching Dunns will clear up if.u r town, and if ur town TB is scum.

no it wont

[Desperado]

and even if it WERE, it would work in reverse as well

[Desperado]

so you think tb is scum whether dunn flips town or scum

but we lynched dunn first

makes sense

[Desperado]

really looking forward to mylo with no clears!

[Desperado]

i mean that was obviously fmpov but the fact remains that you have TB as likely scum regardless of what Dunn flips

[Desperado]

I just don't understand how you've arrived here. Hans makes soooooo much more sense as TB's partner and you've pretty much ignored everything I've said about him.

[Desperado]

@ Reg: I meant everything I've said w/r/t Hans being ThinkBig's partner.

[Desperado]

lmao there was nothing obvious about a dunn lynch

[Desperado]

in fact it wasn't even a possibility until reg started pushing it

[Desperado]

and whaddaya know

both of my scum reads sheeped reg's read

again

huh

[Desperado]

I disagree. I think other than TB being a potential lynch for people, dunstraal and you were pretty high on the table.

then you aren't reading very closely

[Desperado]

I know that I have a town read on Dunnstral (subject to change if I find Regfan's argument compelling) and I know that Desperado also has a town read on Dunnstral.

I don't know about D3 content, but from how Dunnstral played D1, D2, I don't see it being particularly scum.

@Realeo - I don't agree with your SH hesitation in Post 2298 and think it's your fever talking. I do agree with TB ignoring the questions and just throwing a vote down in Post 2296 being a concern though. I really think Dunnstral is the correct lynch here and given todays my last day would appreciate you either voting with me or discussing this read with me in some more detail, happy to wait until you're better though (Get well soon!).

I thought about this more while I was out but lynching Dunnstral almost tells us Desperados alignment as well regardless of flip nearly.

Follow along;

Realeo is just always town here, this is a read that'll never change; (Cop report, his play etc.)
Alisea was Nyduss predecessor and she was the person that pushed (Quite strongly) on Desperado D1 in a way that scum wouldn't to a partner. Nydus-Desp = No.
Dave also pushed on Desperado D1 and there were some interactions between the two of them that point towards not being partners. Dave-Desp = No.
SuperHans & Desperado are just very very clearly non-aligned, everyone has also stated and agreed with this already pretty much. SH-Desp = No.
ThingBig has been pushed on throughout D1/D2/D3 by Desp in a way that scum can't afford to do so. TB-Desp = No.

That means the only scenario that Desperado can ever be scum in is with Dunnstral. Lynching Dunnstral either leads to a scum flip (Which I'm expecting and we'd want) or leads towards Desperado becoming as near as cleared as well upon a town flip in the worst case scenario.

Why are you scumreading Dunn and hard townreading nydus...when they are townreading ThinkBig...for the same reason?

Lots of different reasons? I don't consider their play all that similar at all & Nydus isn't entirely ruling out TB to the degree that Dunn is.

@Dunnstral RE; Post 2301 I think I am being very fair with the analysis; the reasoning behind TB being scum has changed throughout the game, sure others may have maintained the point about AH leading TB to be scum but they

did

provide other reasons which you never considered or addressed, that's where my issue with your read on him stems from. I don't buy the "I don't use activity is an indicator" in Post 2302 at all.

Buy this.
Will.vote Dunnstral

Count this post as my commitment to voting for him.

I
AM
ON THE
DUNNSTRAGON
PEOPLE

Not voting rn cos I'm on my phone and I dont want to accidentally lynch.

[Desperado]

look at it

just fucking look at it

thinkbig's trajectory on dunn is even more sparse

they aren't even trying to hide anymore

[Desperado]

but hey the ic said he's scum so who the fuck are we, right?

right?









right...????

[Desperado]

lmao hans i quoted your trajectory right there

you thought his play D1 and D2 were not likely scum but left room to be "convinced" by reg's case

then reg posted his case

and you were ~magically convinced~

and then you just omgused

[Desperado]

dafuq

[Desperado]

Vote: davesaz

scumDunn being that sticky with his townThink read makes absolutely no sense if they are partners

I also don't think Hans busses in that situation.

[Desperado]

especially when it's dunn's flip that actually confirms realeo as town

[Desperado]

at no point have i said anything remotely like "why listen to the ic?" so just stop it with that

[Desperado]

what turnaround?

Dunn had TB as town from the word go and did not waver on that until it was too late

[Desperado]

He constantly states he has ThingBig as town and that he doesn't want to lynch him, then look at the reasoning that's attached to it; it's solely and 100% based around AH's push on TB and then stating "Scum are pushing TB", none of it at all has anything to do with TB's play.

My read doesn't come from his play. It comes from the dead traitor. This is true, but you seem to think I have to be looking at thinkbig's play (he hasn't done anything of note, but lurking out definitely doesn't always mean scum)

I'm reconsidering that read now though, after seeing him hop on to me. I'm probably ok with lynching TB...?

this is the closest dunn comes to turning his read on tb around

[Desperado]

my point was that dunn flipping yesterday was the absolute worst case scenario for the scum team, if he and think were partners it makes absolutely no sense to be sticky with his think townread when it means he gets lynched instead

[Desperado]

finally, please explain how cutting off the guy i've been trying to mislynch all game when i would finally be able to ram it through is a scum thought process

[Desperado]

cuz it kinda sounds like you're saying i'm scum for evolving my reads

[Desperado]

thinkbig's vote dunn > self vote > vote dunn trajectory does not make sense if they're partners

dunn's thinkbig townread is seriously insane if they are partners. before you replaced in he was the only person defending Think in any meaningful way. when D2 began Dunn had just finished PR hunting instead of killing the IC--he was very, very clearly townreading Think for the towncred after his flip

[Desperado]

also, ~wifom~ but if you think i kill realeo over you there after everything that went down yesterday...i mean jesus dude

[Desperado]

i think you're now ascribing a lot of things to thinkbig's play that are not there

which does not track with the way you presented your experience with thinkbig d2

does thinkbig strike you as the kind of player to make a low risk high reward distancing vote on his role cop partner?

[Desperado]

cuz i don't get the impression he's even thinking about the current move he's making, let alone three steps ahead

[Desperado]

and theres also one OOG reason that i think is very compelling but it's even sketchier than talking about his activity in other games and is better left for end game

needless to say i had been interpreting his play as scum who had checked out because even the best scum can only defend themselves from constant accusations for so long, but i now believe him to have just been frustrated town who didn't know how/wasnt capable of defending himself

[Desperado]

given how differently we appear to be reading partnerships that isn't surprising

my analysis on dave pretty much starts and ends with him not doing anything all game but acting indignant when anyone even looks at him the wrong way. i could go back and quote all the times he does this but we both know i dont need to do that.

it felt genuine for a while and i think you've touched on that in some of your previous analysis on him, and i was willing to believe it was genuine because i had much stronger reads elsewhere, but dunn flipping scum was the wake up call i was begging for pretty much the entirety of yesterday. nothing had happened to alter my D2 reads and i was hurting the town as a result; dave's limp wristed play yesterday makes a lotttttttt more sense to me as paralyzed scum who doesn't want to buss Dunn for obvious reasons.

[Desperado]

mafia is such a weird game sometimes

if you two were dunnstral and thinkbig and you were both scum, does your play even

remotely

resemble what occurred?

[Desperado]

like, it's N2

you've outed both prs, lynched one just as you planned when you took just the rolecop, and killed the other

thinkbig is taking heat from everywhere and really hasn't been able to play the game for quite some time now, at least halfway through D2 and maybe before

why do you as dunn stick to your guns when your flip is literally the worst case scenario?

[Desperado]

i mean that if dunnstral and thinkbig were both scum, then they should have been doing everything possible to ensure Dunn survived D3 AND looked favorable doing so

which means a slow erosion of his traitor based townread, which would have been entirely justified given thinkbig's almost complete absence and lack of content when he was here

but that isn't what happened, at all. he stuck to his guns on think being town because the traitor pushed him and only started turning that read around after the damage had already been done

[Desperado]

Because lynching ThingBig and TB flipping scum clears a lot of townies, it's never a great move for scum to intentionally aim for. TB's flip hard clears you, pretty much hard clears Realeo and certainly hardclears Aliseas slot holder Nydus. It also provides a mine of information for town to hunt in.

/shrug

i may have argued that it would, but it would not have hard cleared me

it definitely does not hard clear realeo and actually does the opposite, flipping thinkbig d3 is the only thing that keeps realeo even remotely lynchable

and i have no clue how thinkscum would clear dusher

[Desperado]

but the main reason you turned on dunnstral was his sticky thinkbig read...

[Desperado]

and my entire point is that dunnstral as scum had no reason to continue being sticky on that read with both PRs dead whether he thought he was in danger of being lynched or not...as you said, thinkbig was not making it to endgame no matter what happened.

[Desperado]

give me my thinkbig lynch, kill you, use me to mislynch hans, kill realeo, 4-way MYLO with me/dunn/dusher/dave

i mean, that sounds WAY better than what actually happened

[Desperado]

i didn't say it was that alone

i said it was the main thing that began to turn your read on him

is that a mischaracterization?

[Desperado]

reg, those players would have looked better TO YOU

but you'd be dead

realeo literally became confirmed town on dunn's flip--any other outcome would have been better for the scum team than that.

[Desperado]

it doesn't even matter what realeo would have looked after a thinkscum flip, you're talking about "hard clearing" based on reads and i'm talking about hard clearing based on role mechanics

[Desperado]

give me my thinkbig lynch, kill you, use me to mislynch hans, kill realeo, 4-way MYLO with me/dunn/dusher/dave

i mean, that sounds WAY better than what actually happened

you can call me illogical or whatever you want man

but this was 100% in play yesterday

and dunn threw it away because bussing would have made too many town players look good???

[Desperado]

keeping in mind that

he is now dead, the IC is still alive because a VT became confirmed town on dunn's flip, and you are still pushing his partner today anyway

[Desperado]

last thing before i go to bed, reg:

why are you alive and not realeo?

[Desperado]

shit, it doesn't make a lick of sense for thinkbig OR me to leave you alive

[Desperado]

almost like the scum was banking on you mislynching one of us, then killing you and trying to lynch the other in MYLO

[Desperado]

Dunn couldn't have thought he was genuinely in threat of being lynched going into yesterday therefore he's not making moves that are based on self-preservation for himself.

it's not about surviving D3, it's about surviving the rest of the game

[Desperado]

...Yeah I'm done interacting with you, you have no sense of logical thought process in you at all and I'm somewhat actually praying that you're scum faking this level of stupidity but don't really think that's the case right here.

wow

[Desperado]

For those that prefer reading quotes rather than links I've spoiled two of the major interactions between Dun/Dave that make me think it's not S/S.

Spoiler: Interaction #1

^Ah i messed up, Dunnstral doesn't vote Dave, but calls him scummy with no explanation,
Change question to:
@Dunnstral why did you scum read Dave?

Because he made a scummy post.

Which post and why do you think it's scummy?

It's about intent. Get off of me. I'm not getting lynched. Vote Gamma.

Next thing you know I'll be l-5 followed by l-4

I find these two posts to be an over reaction and I'm not liking post 103.

To play devil's advocate for myself, not sure why I'd make such a big deal of it as scum

In order to wifom once people call you on it.

@Dunnstral,
Why are you voting Gamma?
Would you want to convince other players to do the same?

He's not engaging in anything while being here, very odd for him.


MARIA is also trying to be as scummy as possible it would seem

I can get behind a pressure wagon.
VOTE: Gamma Emerald

Pressure is more useful if the target doesn't know you're voting merely for pressure.
Also note to myself to see if the quoted post becomes relevant later.

These ones. I thought they were scummy at the time. I didin't vote you and you can stop acting like you didn't do anything

These ones. I thought they were scummy at the time. I didin't vote you and you can stop acting like you didn't do anything

I'm not sure what you mean by "acting like I didn't do anything". Am I trying to disclaim posts or something?

The question is why you thought they were scummy. Do you not want to answer that question?

They're scummy because I felt like they were. If I wanted to make a case it wouldn't be off of those two posts.

They're scummy because I felt like they were. If I wanted to make a case it wouldn't be off of those two posts.

That's not going to help sort your motive, but whatever you like...

Spoiler: Interaction #2

I also don't see what you guys are seeing about dave

I'd be a lot more comfortable reading you if I could be confident you understand the concept of honest posting and could recognize it when you see it.

I also don't see what you guys are seeing about dave

I'd be a lot more comfortable reading you if I could be confident you understand the concept of honest posting and could recognize it when you see it.

huh?

I also don't see what you guys are seeing about dave

I'd be a lot more comfortable reading you if I could be confident you understand the concept of honest posting and could recognize it when you see it.

huh?

What do you actually think about me, and why?

I think you're mafia. Posts like this:

VT/

Dunn might be scum who realized I've got his partner dead in my sights.

While talking about kop when it didn't make sense (and we know he was town now)

along with the defensiveness that followed that

Do I need to go over your iso for you to understand why you're scummy?

Despite my otherwise head on playstyle, I do occasionally make tongue in cheek comments and employ sarcasm.

I fail to understand why people scumread it. My town play is so obvious it borders on being illegal.
All you have to do is accept that (aside from rare jokes and the occasional reaction test) I honestly believe everything I type.
I'm never afraid to be wrong, I'm never afraid to not know the right answer (more often, not have an answer at all).

You (and that's personally you) lose games (specifically ones where you scumread me) because you expect people to act evasively so much that you can't recognize when they are not being evasive.
There is no conceivable scum motivation in anything I've posted this game. Of course not given I'm town, but any attempt to force read this as scummy has to come from either stupidity or scumminess.
I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt instead of power lynching you. I suggest you use that opportunity to up your game.

you have got to be fucking kidding me

[Desperado]

every single one of those posts

screams

scum theater

[Desperado]

it's all bluster and posturing that

literally goes nowhere

[Desperado]

It's not a case of "bussing or not", it's a case of they're interacting with each other in a way that comes very much across as them not actually being aligned together. I don't think Dave as scum ever does the level of emotional manipulation that the following post would require to a scum partner;

You (and that's personally you) lose games (specifically ones where you scumread me) because you expect people to act evasively so much that you can't recognize when they are not being evasive.
There is no conceivable scum motivation in anything I've posted this game. Of course not given I'm town, but any attempt to force read this as scummy has to come from either stupidity or scumminess.
I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt instead of power lynching you. I suggest you use that opportunity to up your game.

this isnt even emotionally manipulative!

especially if they're scum together!!!!

[Desperado]

Sounds good. I'll do so later. Also, I should say this. I tracked superhans last night. He went nowhere which means he has to be town.

what the fuck mate

[Desperado]

VOTE: ThinkBig

I concede the game. Gg. I absolutely hate playing scum and when AH tried to hard bus me, my entire game plans fell apart. I wish we had day chat

what the fuckkkkkkkkkkkkkkk

vote: thinkbig

[Desperado]

desperado falling into the same trap of "didn't realize game was over"

lmfao

[Desperado]

hey reg:

if you'd just rode with me on my thinkbig lynch D2 literally everything that's happened in this game could have been avoided

i still love you tho!

[Desperado]

also, don't ever call me stupid again

TIA

[Desperado]

first game back...immediately catch the traitor and one of his partners on D1

i'll take it!

[Desperado]

TB, I didn't bus you, it's astonishing you still don't get it.
I pushed you from the getgo in such an obvious way even a blind man would notice

I knew your alignment

. Seriously, it didn't make you wonder that I nitpicked on

every single thing

you said? I think Dunn has recognized me as a traitor and you could've done too but instead you panicked and created a counter-push that got me lynched. I planned on unvoting you when you finally recognized me as a partner and I was very close to do that anyway when I saw it was all in vain but you re-voted me and it was all too far gone. I'm still baffled people picked me over you when your only defense was "throwing shades" the whole game, rotfl. If you got lynched instead, I would've prolly rode on towncred for a good while.
All of this could've been of course avoided if only you recruited me. Oh well. Sorry for how it turned out, I didn't wanna play it safe and boring.

hi reg

no apology necessary it's all good bro

[Desperado]

weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

[Desperado]

jesus

no, no you didn't

[Desperado]

now wouldn't that have been something!

[Desperado]

i thought picking one power was pretty brilliant tbh

it got them a free PR mislynch

[Desperado]

we aren't authorized for either one yet fyi

[Desperado]

proud to call this my first game back

well done everyone!

[Desperado]

you two woefully misplayed your hand d3

[Desperado]

I was following this. it is nice to see that the charm I placed on Regfan a while back had such a huge effect in this game!

also I'm excited to see Desp again; it's too bad my availability is as limited as it is cuz I'd love to play with you again. :<

Hi pie!