Micro 676: Bill Wurtz Mafia (Game Over)

[Stormcloud]

I don't need to convince you.
I need to convince the rest of the town. They seem to already be fairly close to agreeing though. That's why I asked what their concerns are.
I don't think I'm going to convince you that Syr is town, any more than you can convince me that you're town.
Is that true? Is there anything I could possibly tell you about my thoughts regarding Syryana that are going to suddenly change your very confident read on her? I don't think there are so I don't want to waste my breath.

[Stormcloud]

So far I've learned from readable posts that Stormcloud is town, and I want to say Syr is likely town for having a similar thought process to mine.

I'm reading Tweet as town, and although this was pretty early in the game she's echoing my thoughts on Syryana. I think Syry's thought processes and switches of focus have been genuine and natural. She was never keen on the implosion lynch, she perked up once Transcend was on the the table. Her switch to Parama (I think, I might have to go back and check) came before I expressed any strong Parama suspicions (I had them for a while before I said anything, so I don't think she was sheeping me there).
She has been a little bit too friendly at times with the "dearie" in one post. Don't love that and it's not like she's locktown never ever gonna vote her or anything.
But nothing about her seems off to me like it clearly does to you. I've read her ISO and the relevant sections of the implo and Transcend pushes a dozen times and nothing there is majorly bothering me.

[Stormcloud]

Alright, went back and checked. Syry's switch to Parama is more suspicious than I initially thought, but I think I believed that he was gone (as in, not lurking but rather not online at all) during the time between post 506 and post 599 where he votes for Parama and follows me. Obviously the Transcend wagon was dissolved at this point and the confirmed town is voting for Syry's other main scumread (apart from Gamma who's gone). If Syry had not been suspicious of Parama before and suddenly voted for him out of nowhere, that would be pretty scummy, but he's always had Parama in his lynchpool so the move makes total sense to me.
Also he tries to explain the Parama scumread way back in 171 and it's a hilariously bad explanation. That screams town to me - scum would have made up some reason related to the game and tried to make it look like a legit read.
Not saying it couldn't be faked, but why give a gut scumread with basically no logic, admit it's a terrible explanation, just so that you can later join that wagon and have it not look opportunistic? I don't buy it. Syryana has been very consistent thought process wise and I love post 171.

[Stormcloud]

My main issue with Parama is the switch between wanting Transcend's blood REALLY AGGRESSIVELY, and then suddenly switching to Syry and now he's working with Transcend with no suspicion of him at all, it seems.
I'll see if I can show you any posts that really bother me in particular.

I actually liked Parama early in the game, it's only after the whole Transcend wagon that I started to get a scumread on him.

[Stormcloud]

no, it's not, Storm come and hammer

no no no transcend's "i'm dead and i was town" post is so fake, he was the same person who tried to reaction test implosion like literally a few hours ago, he knew full well he wasn't hammered and wanted to act like he was

Transcend as much as I wanna use that "twilight" post as a towntell, you're an experienced player. I think you knew it wasn't a hammer.

YES HE DID KNOW IT'S SO FAKE AAUGH

i trust it less after the crumb than before the crumb, but i still want to lynch transcend first

i'd be up for lynching syr

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Syrana

we can make the dream happen

Parama claims that in between 425 and 448 Transcend's frustration seemed town to him, so that's why he left the wagon. I guess I'm just not buying that explanation.
I mean, my read on Transcend also changed during that time, but it was very very slowly and I'm still fairly suspicious of him. I didn't go from wanting his blood to suddenly agreeing with his alternative lynch suggestion.

[Stormcloud]

Tweet, yes I have. It's not a crazy explanation by any means, there's just something going on here that I don't like. I'm finding it hard to explain though.

[Stormcloud]

Because there's a decent chance neither is scum and then we're really in a bad spot.
But the bigger reason is, you don't line up lynches. When someone flips, town gains information. Most of the time on day 2, you'll have two flips and maybe even a PR with a result if you're lucky. You never just blindly lynch the other person in the pair without taking all that information into account. It might be that they still look like the next scummiest, but you never decide that ahead of time.
Putting the idea into town's head that, oh if Parama flips green it must be Syryana! is really good...if you're scum and they're both town.

[Stormcloud]

I also don't like how you're fencesitting between the two wagons and won't take a side here. I understand it's a tough decision but not having any opinion at all on why either of them might be scum or town is weird.

[Stormcloud]

I'm convinced by a certain thing in that post. I don't think it was what you intended at all, but I'm seeing a tiny little towntell in there and that's enough for me.
The only unfortunate thing is that I still don't see scum Syry.
Right now I'm leaning towards Kain but I think lots of people are still townreading him.

[Stormcloud]

I've explained several times why I think Syry is town, I'm not gonna do it again. Clearly you don't think my reasons are correct/good enough.

Pedit yes I agree I didn't love that explanation, scum could very easily make that post after the claim. But I think it's equally possible he's town and picked up on my softing - it wasn't like I hid it overly well, it was really obvious.

[Stormcloud]

Spoiler:

So far I've learned from readable posts that Stormcloud is town, and I want to say Syr is likely town for having a similar thought process to mine.

I'm reading Tweet as town, and although this was pretty early in the game she's echoing my thoughts on Syryana. I think Syry's thought processes and switches of focus have been genuine and natural. She was never keen on the implosion lynch, she perked up once Transcend was on the the table. Her switch to Parama (I think, I might have to go back and check) came before I expressed any strong Parama suspicions (I had them for a while before I said anything, so I don't think she was sheeping me there).
She has been a little bit too friendly at times with the "dearie" in one post. Don't love that and it's not like she's locktown never ever gonna vote her or anything.
But nothing about her seems off to me like it clearly does to you. I've read her ISO and the relevant sections of the implo and Transcend pushes a dozen times and nothing there is majorly bothering me.

Alright, went back and checked. Syry's switch to Parama is more suspicious than I initially thought, but I think I believed that he was gone (as in, not lurking but rather not online at all) during the time between post 506 and post 599 where he votes for Parama and follows me. Obviously the Transcend wagon was dissolved at this point and the confirmed town is voting for Syry's other main scumread (apart from Gamma who's gone). If Syry had not been suspicious of Parama before and suddenly voted for him out of nowhere, that would be pretty scummy, but he's always had Parama in his lynchpool so the move makes total sense to me.
Also he tries to explain the Parama scumread way back in 171 and it's a hilariously bad explanation. That screams town to me - scum would have made up some reason related to the game and tried to make it look like a legit read.
Not saying it couldn't be faked, but why give a gut scumread with basically no logic, admit it's a terrible explanation, just so that you can later join that wagon and have it not look opportunistic? I don't buy it. Syryana has been very consistent thought process wise and I love post 171.

This is my tldr as to why im reading syry town.

[Stormcloud]

Storm, there's one thing you've failed to do up to this point.

Why does my switch from Transcend to Syr make sense if I'm scum and Syr is town? The only reason I can think of is that you think I'm scum with Transcend. Which... doesn't make much sense if you read through the game.

Until you can justify that you don't really have a basis for an argument against me, since you said yourself you townread me until I switched to Syr.

Scum can switch their scumreads/pushes to appear town. It's Day 1, so scum can't push one mislynch and win. You need to appear town for future days too. If you push on Transcend, then change your mind and move to Syry as if you were convinced by him, that looks very town. But now I'm remembering what people said about the most obvious motivation usually being correct, which means this is just a paranoid conspiracy theory.
If everyone's most obvious motivations are correct it looks to me like we're all town. Because whoever the scum are, I think they are very skilled and will therefore do things that look town to me as a less experienced player. So my best option looks like sheeping the confirmed town and my strong townreads rather than following my own original thoughts.

In my real life games my gut reads are often pretty accurate. I don't love being wrong, but I really hate when I'm right and someone manages to talk me out of voting for my correct scumread.
That's why I'm being so stubborn here. I don't want to ignore my gut and regret it later. I'd rather lose to a clever scum I never suspected than push on the scum all game and let them talk me out of the lynch.

[Stormcloud]

UNVOTE: Stormcloud perhaps i may be misunderstanding you at points. let me look at your posts again

for the record this sequence of posts on this page is the main reason i townread kain

on top of that kain's play is just really all over the place and i feel like it'd be a little more controlled if they were scum

I loved that Kain interaction, it was super town.
It's his latest series of posts that are bothering me. I've called out several for being even more odd than usual KT.

[Stormcloud]

I agree on Gamma but I'm not lynching someone that isn't here. It's lazy. Either we lynch someone else or we wait for Tuesday.

[Stormcloud]

I'm scared of you, Parama, because I think you're very persuasive and very capable of persuading me.
I'm also scared of Syry - I'm scared I'm being pocketed and am now biased.
I don't have the bluster and confidence I usually feel in mafia. Perhaps it's the much longer days that make second guessing oneself so much more likely.

[Stormcloud]

Tweet you popped in to ask a couple questions...any ideas?

[Stormcloud]

I can't figure out what the heck is going on with its face tbh

[Stormcloud]

I realize I won't have much support on this, but it's between you and Syr.

If you know you won't have support and you know a single vote isn't going to provide much pressure, and your other scumread has an active wagon going on, why vote for Tweet?

[Stormcloud]

Why would you voting Syry, who you just said was a scumread, make him more likely to be town?
He's either town or scum, and you either townread him or scumread him, but you voting for him isn't going to change his alignment.

Might be too late as in, Tweet might die overnight?
Cause if she dies, then we obviously learn her alignment. I'd love to hear more from her as well but I don't think one vote is gonna magically make her talk a whole bunch more. She knows she's being townread by most people and isn't on the table for today.
If she's alive tomorrow then it's definitely not too late, just because people townread her now doesn't mean they always will. A lot can change in a night.

[Stormcloud]

"I'll push a wagon on her to L1 if I have to"
And where is this wagon gonna come from?
Transcend isn't voting her today. I don't think I am, even for pressure reasons.
I think Syry isn't either. Gamma's gone. KT said his vote is final (but who knows really).
Where is this L1 wagon that makes Tweet feel so pressured that she has to talk going to come from?

[Stormcloud]

Syry put his vote on you after your conversation with implosion, where Syry said (still not sure I believe this but for the moment lets assume) that he saw my softing and thought implosion was town. Then Syry removed his vote on you because he didn't trust Kain not to do something silly. Then, Parama removes his vote, I remove mine, wagon dissolves. You even said something like, if you don't want me to die you better unvote before Syry gets back, and sure enough Parama did just that when he started to read you as town.
Syry specifically said he only wanted to lynch you if the game was stalling, which it never really did, so he didn't. You and I and Parama were having a great discussion and I don't find it odd at all that he didn't hammer. I think the motivation there is more town than scum.
His swap to Parama still makes total sense to me - his other scumread now has a vote from a confirmed town, while his first choice is now getting townread by a couple people. Why wouldn't he vote for Parama there as town?

I do agree that Syry's Tweet vote is bizarre and I don't like it. I think at this point Tweet knows that even if she gets to L-1 there's a lot of people here not willing to hammer her so I really don't think a couple of votes are gonna pressure her much at all. I want her to talk more too but I'm doubtful that this plan will do that.

[Stormcloud]

Nah I agree on the Tweet wagon being weird af but the other votes all made sense to me.
Why is the Parama vote bad? Is it the timing?
If you're correct here I really want to know what it is that tipped you off.

[Stormcloud]

Yeah, Syry wanted you dead and then switched to another player without a ton of explanation. But are you forgetting that Parama did the same thing, and everyone accepted his explanation, that he started townreading you, as perfectly fine?
It seems to me like they did pretty much the same thing - both didn't like you and wanted you dead, then both started to townread you and moved away towards pushing each other instead.
What's the difference between how Parama left your wagon for Syry and how Syry left your wagon for Parama?

[Stormcloud]

Alright, if that's true I definitely wasn't picking up on that. I'm gonna go back through and make a timeline of significant events and see if Syry's vote changes seem suspicious at all to me. I wasn't looking that far back in the game recently.

[Stormcloud]

Spoiler: My readthrough of major events

VC in 295, before the mason claim
[4] implosion (CommKnight, Transcend, KainTepes, Parama)
[2] Transcend (Gamma Emerald, implosion)
[1] CommKnight (Stormcloud)
[1] Gamma Emerald (Morning Tweet)

[1] Not Voting (Syryana)

Syryana declares intent to declare intent if the game goes nowhere.
Transcend and implosion have a big exchange where implosion really doesn't like anything Transcend says. implosion invites opinions.
Syryana then votes for Transcend rather than hammering implosion.
I claim a little bit harder. Parama says he believes me, votes Transcend, and asks for a hammer.
Post claim VC
[4] Transcend (Gamma Emerald, implosion, Syryana, Parama)
[3] implosion (CommKnight, Transcend, KainTepes)
[1] CommKnight (Stormcloud)
[1] Gamma Emerald (Morning Tweet)

I give intent to hammer. Syry makes some odd posts about my attempted soft. Rereading this, it makes total sense that he picked up on my soft and that was the real reason he didn't hammer implosion. That doesn't make him town, but it does make me think he was telling the truth about that.
KT then unvotes implosion after the claim and also gives intent to hammer Transcend.
Syryana unvotes Transcend because he doesn't trust Kain.
Transcend unvotes implo as well after the full claim. He claims VT.
I vote Transcend, faking a hammer.

VC
[4] Transcend (Gamma Emerald, implosion, Parama, Stormcloud)
[1] implosion (CommKnight)
[1] Gamma Emerald (Morning Tweet)

[3] Not Voting (KainTepes, Syryana, Transcend)

I am very unsure of myself and unvote, putting Transcend back at L-2.
Parama expresses doubt that Transcend's twilight post was real.
Transcend admits it was fake and is frustrated.
I vote for Transcend again. (L-1)
Transcend votes for Syr, he and I have a little conversation.
Parama says he's willing to lynch Syr instead. He does not unvote. (Still L-1)
Syryana comes back into the thread and asks what if Transcend townflips.
He has the chance to hammer Transcend and shut down the wagon on himself, and does not do so. Granted, only 4 minutes pass between Syry's post and Parama's unvote, but he did have the opportunity.
Parama swaps to Syry and implosion also unvotes.

At this point in my readthrough, every single person seems town. Implosion I know is town. Transcend seems very town. Parama's vote switch makes sense to me.

This readthrough is making me suspect Kain quite a lot.
The major things I don't like about Syryana are: posts are very short apart from a couple of initial walls. He doesn't explain much about why he's switching votes. Huge tone shift from the start of the game. I think he is buddying up to me quite a bit. So is KT.

Tweet likes Syry, Transcend trusts Tweet "more than himself" in his own words, yet he SRs Syryana HARD. This is really interesting.

Why is there such a wagon on Syryana over Kain when so many people have expressed suspicion of him? I'd much rather lynch Kain today I think.

At the end of my readthrough, I think it's Kain or Syryana. Possibly both. Would highly prefer a Kain lynch today.
I have another reason why Kain just took a jump on my scum radar but I'm not gonna say yet.
VOTE: Kain Tepes

[Stormcloud]

Transcend I'll admit I think I was blaming the timing of Syryana's votes on him being busy (he admits to it at one point). If I knew for a fact he was here 24/7, then yes his timing is suspicious. I didn't check whether he was online at certain times though, and even if he was he could hide that status so there's no way to know whether it's just him being busy or it really is suspicious. But at least I think I understand that angle now.

[Stormcloud]

Funnily enough, I'm actually reading Syryana's switch to Tweet as town because I think scum would be really self conscious there, especially as he was already being called out and voted on for doing lots of suspiciously timed vote switches. Easily fakeable by scum of course but I honestly kinda like the brazenness.

Tweet's vote still being on Gamma is a little weird. It's been there like all game. He hasn't joined any of the major wagons. Not sure what that means though.

[Stormcloud]

Things I like about Tweet: Great questions, pushed on me early and felt like she was genuinely trying to read me.
Things I don't like about Tweet: Has given some reads, but hasn't changed her vote or really pushed on anyone in particular. If it is something like her and Gamma, she could just be watching as town chases each other's tails right now. But I feel like the more likely motivation is that she really just isn't sure yet.

Transcend's confidence that she is town and his constant praise of her is really weird. I don't see a scum motivation for making sure town listens to a good player later on - she's liable to figure it all out.
Tweet also asked Transcend to stop saying good stuff about her - I think that's a town motivated post as well because scum would love it if the town listened to them later - especially if Transcend later flips town, his posts will be confirmed to be coming from a town standpoint and people will be even more likely to listen to her. So I think asking him to stop is more likely to be town motivated - perhaps she sees it as buddying or isn't very confident in her own reads. If she was scum she could have just totally ignored him and hoped a few town believed his read on her and listened to her on later days.

I agree there are possible scum motivations for Tweet's actions, I just see the town ones as more likely right now.

I also think her not being around much could be just as easily her being busy as her being scummy. This game is very active (...sorry about that lol) and not everyone has the time to post all the time. Like you for instance! But at least you have actually voted

[Stormcloud]

Sorry about your RL stuff and that the game didn't match up with how much available time you had.
I hope to see you again sometime, it was fun

[Stormcloud]

This might actually be good if the replacement is nice and active. I wanted to get a better read on Tweet's slot and the new player might have a good perspective on the events so far.

[Stormcloud]

So we all just gonna wait on Tweet's replacement and Gamma to liven things up then?
I'm okay with that. I don't have anything to say that I haven't said before.

[Stormcloud]

Kain went from a pretty strong town read for me on the basis of his early interaction with CK and myself, to my strongest scumread. Changing his vote a lot I believe is something he does as either alignment but right now that plus something else is really bugging me about him.

[Stormcloud]

I don't like that Parama suggested a quicklynch on Gamma - not sure if he was serious and thought there was a good reason to lynch an inactive slot, or if it was a joke, but I think it's scummy to try and push a player who isn't present to defend themselves.
I agree with him that Gamma being scum makes sense for a number of reasons, but I don't agree with actually pushing on a player that isn't present - you can't get any info out of them and you're wasting time not getting info out of other players.

[Stormcloud]

Agreed - it looks like Gamma was back last night but hasn't had the chance to post here yet. Hopefully he can join us soon and we can pick back up!

[Stormcloud]

I was really disliking Tweet for seeming disconnected but CloudKicker seems alright so far. I think it was just RL stuff getting to her, not scum lurking. Slot's basically null for me atm.

[Stormcloud]

I am okay with a Syr lynch if we must, but I see no reason we can't wait for Gamma to return. We've waited this long already, another 24 hours is okay with me.
I guess I'm a much more patient player than most, though.

Is no one else okay with Kain as today's lynch instead? I feel like if I was bossy enough there's so much scummy behavior there that a skilled player in my position could absolutely get him lynched. I'm just too fucking bad at the game to manage it.

[Stormcloud]

nah, you're scum and i'm being strung along here. I'll sit in the dead thread for the rest of the days annoyed that I didn't just kill you when I had the chance.

can't hold on to regrets though, it's all a learning experience and hopefully I'll do better next game

[Stormcloud]

CommKnight is not currently voting for anyone, I believe.
Syry is at L-2 right now with CloudKicker, Transcend and Kain Tepes voting for him.
Parama unvoted to ensure no lolhammers and wait for Gamma or a replacement.

[Stormcloud]

CommKnight, you said yourself that the masons are "safer than ever" tonight. You're being pretty widely townread. What if you die in the night and aren't alive to lynch Gamma?

[Stormcloud]

Yeah I realized pretty quickly that I have to stop saying CK...

[Stormcloud]

I'm so sad that right as the game picks up again I'm gonna be low access

@mod V/LA from the 19th to the 24th.

I'll try and remember to put a banner on myself on Thursday. I will check in at least once during the weekend and I'll get notified if the day ends by my phone so I'll be able to check the flip and chat with implo a little bit. I'll be back before deadline but I don't see it dragging out that long.

[Stormcloud]

Why do you think there's always one scum in Comm/Kain?
It does seem very likely that they aren't scum together to me, but I could see their early exchange being TvT. Maybe not super likely, but possible. What stuck out to you that made that impossible?

[Stormcloud]

I keep going back and forth on him.
I don't love that he was so bloodthirsty towards Transcend and then was convinced by Transcend's frustration and now seems to accept him as full town. I also backed off of Transcend, but I was reluctant and unsure and I'm still not sure on him.

On both the Transcend and Syryana wagons Parama seemed extremely sure of himself and confident.

Maybe he's always like this and it's NAI, but I don't like how early he was pushing for a hammer on day 1 and the mind switch to agreeing with Transcend's push pinged me as odd.

I didn't like him at all earlier in the game I believe. Had him as second scummiest at some point, after Transcend?

[Stormcloud]

I don't like how much he wanted an early lynch and I don't like how sure he seems of all his reads. But perhaps some people play the game with far more confidence than I do even as town. It seems like a pretty noob scum mistake to be too confident - it would be easy for him to fake paranoia if he wanted to to seem towny.

[Stormcloud]

Oh he also asked for a hammer on implosion lol, I forgot that too.
But obviously that wagon disappeared after the claim anyway so him switching to Transcend there makes total sense.

[Stormcloud]

Would you like me to chat about why I don't like KT recently? Or should I keep that to myself a while longer?

[Stormcloud]

Early game he was great. Interaction with me where he got super mad and then realized his mistake was very town imo. I liked his reads and his tone seemed pretty town. His votes were opportunistic but he made fun of that and I think that's fairly normal for him.

Then, two posts stuck out to me. Unfortunately I'm having a tough time finding them, so I'll paraphrase:
Parama posted telling him to stop posting the Bill Wurtz video lyrics.
Syryana said he'd like to lynch Kain for some peace and quiet, but ultimately voted for Parama.

After this point Kain stopped posting lyrics and got MUCH quieter, at least relative to other players.
He also said at one point that he'd vote for anyone that wasn't a mason, then said he'd vote between Parama and Syryana, then said his vote was on Syry and it was final.

From what I've read of KT's play, I don't think he normally bends to pressure to be quieter or more "normal", unless he's being so disruptive that the mod gets involved. His writing style is a little weird but his early posts were very sensible and had good thoughts and questions in them. I'm not seeing that now. I find it odd that he got quieter when he did and stopped providing reasoning - most of his recent votes have been pretty naked I think.

[Stormcloud]

I feel like the mason reveal caused a lot of players to play very differently, which makes sense. It's just hard to get a solid read when that happens because people I liked before are now acting differently and people I didn't like are also acting differently. It feels like everyone got a brand new role PM halfway through the day at times.

[Stormcloud]

Well it's not possible that literally everyone is scum buddying me. Both town and scum would want to try and work with confirmed town - I just have to try and tell between the two.

[Stormcloud]

Actually, Parama and Transcend did the reverse. They're both pushing on someone I was townreading and don't seem to care that implosion and I are not on board at all. Their attempts to convince me were not at all convincing.
Not sure what that says about their alignments, but it's interesting.

[Stormcloud]

For once in this game, Transcend, I 100% agree with you on Robster.
Syry wtf are you even doing lol. Vote this late into the day with no explanation? I know you read him as scum a little earlier but you could at least put some amount of effort in to convince others of what you're thinking.
I'm not convinced you're scum but I don't like your current play.

[Stormcloud]

Rotten's lynchbait I feel (as does implo in the night chat in case anyone cares)
I dont love him either but id prefer some more talk or a lynch on someone with more interactions.

Still on vacation so dont expect very frequent updates.

Nightkill analysis probably not worth attempting lolol.

[Stormcloud]

Yeah and town goes along with it like yesterday because I cant push for shit and its another mislynch and then you guys win in lylo. Yay.

[Stormcloud]

I'm back from my trip!
Might take me a day or two to catch back up to my old activity level.
I still want to lynch Parama. I agree with Transcend about the no one jumping on the Robster train thing.

Aj, you're saying Tweet/CK is scummy for unvoting in RVS? Sorry if that's incorrect, trying to follow your thoughts here with all the replacement names.

[Stormcloud]

I'm around, I just don't see much to comment on :/
I'd be okay with Parama or Kain today. The replacements are difficult to figure out at the moment. None seem all that towny, but it's so easy for scum to push on a replacement in this situation.

[Stormcloud]

I'd prefer Kain first personally, but I think if you're town, we lynch in that order and just win.

Why the strong tr on Cloud?

[Stormcloud]

This day is going slow as HECK
VOTE: Kain
Kain if you're not going to actually contribute to the game at all I feel this is the best place my vote can be.
I honestly can't believe there's no discussion of yesterday's wagons at all though. What do people think of Transcend? Of Parama? Of Kain (before he stopped giving content)? Was the push on Syryana all misguided town? Was it driven by scum? Did the scum just hop on near the end?
The timing of the replacements was rough but put in some effort guys. If you're town and lurking you are not helping us.

[Stormcloud]

Not sure what you mean by the wagon growing too fast. Lots of people have expressed annoyance and doubt about him, but only two people are actually voting for him right now, and one of them is me. I do agree that if there's no opposition to that lynch that would make me nervous, but right now there is some and the wagon isn't exactly taking off. That's actually what I was hoping to encourage with my vote - some opinions on Kain if not some actual content from Kain himself.

I think Transcend said he thought there was one scum on and one scum off the wagon, so something like
Golden-Kain
Golden-Kicker
Golden-Parama
Golden-Comm
(if we assume Transcend is town for a moment)
There's obviously at least one scum on the wagon as Syry, implosion and myself are all now confirmed town. Could be two.

Can you explain why you like Parama? I'm with you on Transcend but I'm suspicious of Parama and I want to know what you like about him.

[Stormcloud]

I guess I can't explain it that well - it's largely gut really.
I don't honestly like the AJ lynch for today. But unfortunately that's also gut without any real explanation, so I don't think I can really contribute much here. I agree him and Robster look scummy, but there's just something that's bothering me about it.

[Stormcloud]

Ok, did a little reread.
Transcend, you said a little while back that you put a vote on Robster and no one followed, unlike the Syryana wagon. Does that make him more likely scum to you? Just trying to follow that logic.
I feel like if at least one, maybe two scum are within the more active players right now, both Kain and AJ are easy mislynches.
Comm is obvtown to me right now.
Transcend is just below that with Kicker.
Then AJ and Parama - both are pinging me in weird ways
I still dislike Kain a lot but I see the easy mislynch argument if he's town.

[Stormcloud]

Not sure I'm allowed to quote but here's a quick summary:
-We chatted about Parama saying he wouldn't believe the mason claim unless he already read me as town. I thought a bit about what motivation Parama would have to make that post at all. Seems irrelevant really given that he did read me town and therefore believed the claim, so that post was just kinda weird.
-He had Parama as gut town.
-Said Robster/AJ is an easy mislynch if town
-Said he's not really convinced on Transcend - says he's scumtold more than most people.

[Stormcloud]

@Comm I'm townreading Kicker over Parama right now. That said, my feelings on Parama are mostly gut and might be somewhat playstyle based. implosion did have a gut town read on him and seemed to think his confidence is normal and NAI.
If we aren't lynching Kain and AJ due to fear of them being easy mislynches, then I'm not actually sure who we are lynching. I'm not sure there's anyone else we all agree on.
Transcend and I both like Kicker and Comm, so those seem unlikely.
Don't see any kind of real support for a Parama lynch, although he is in Transcend's pool.
Kain is super obvious mislynch bait unless he's doing this on purpose, but that gets WIFOMy real fast.
AJ just hasn't done anything yet and neither did Robster really. Pretty useless slot, but again easy for scum to push on.

[Stormcloud]

@AJ yes, it's very normal. At the start of the game I'd say he was being downright helpful and lovely. His arguments with Comm and myself were super town. He seemed happy to be in the game and generally eager to scumhunt.
I can't explain the sudden shift. If he's town, he needs to come back and stop being mislynch bait and contribute like on day 1. If he's scum, this is the weirdest sudden playstyle shift I've ever seen.
I'm actually considering that maybe he has RL stuff going on and his long absences and contentless posts might be NAI, but I have no proof of that ofc.

[Stormcloud]

uhhhhhhhhhh
have you read the entire game yet AJ?
it's a normal, normals can't have scum masons
implosion has flipped and he confirmed I was the other mason yesterday
you said you were doing a silent reread, so I thought you were at least like halfway through at this point

[Stormcloud]

And yes, AJ I didn't move my vote for a very long time - I just didn't feel enough confidence to. I also ended up changing my read on Syry later on. I'm pretty sure you've probably noticed this by now in your reread but I'm new to the site and fairly new to the game so my actions may not always be 100% what's expected from a "normal" player.
CK, scum have no inherent daytalk - they could have an encryptor though. I'm not gonna take that as a tslip from you since I'm guessing you're aware of both of those facts.

[Stormcloud]

The plan for me and implosion (we got to chat in pregame) was that we'd try not to reveal day 1 unless necessary (i.e. it looks like one of us is the likely lynch target). So, I didn't want to inexplicably townread him early on - I tried to give a reasonably honest read on him as if I didn't know his alignment so that scum hopefully wouldn't suspect anything odd there.
Obviously after we reveal I would no longer pretend to consider scumreading him.

[Stormcloud]

Giving AJ the benefit of the doubt, I think he's more questioning how I played the situation, saying that it was weird that I would say I would vote for my mason partner and that I was lightly scumreading him. While I'd love to chat with AJ in the postgame about why I played the way I did and what I could have done better, that's really not relevant to the game right now given later events.

I'm curious as to why he asked why I'm the second mason - obviously in the situation where both masons confirm each other and then one flips, the other is confirmed. I think I was fairly clear that implosion confirmed me as the other mason before he died, and implosion would have no reason to lie about it - for one it's against his win condition, and for another if he was lying the real other mason would have come forward.

I'm not gonna jump on it as a scumtell quite yet but I agree it's bizarre behavior.

[Stormcloud]

I have a strange feeling you'll be waiting for a long time...

[Stormcloud]

Also I do not like that unvote. AJ wasn't at L-1 so no real danger of quickhammer given we aren't yet in Lylo - it would be suicidal if AJ flipped town. We have plenty of time left - why not pressure AJ to clarify his catchup posts and defend himself?
Consider this a FoS: Kicker as I don't wish to put anyone at L-1 yet.

[Stormcloud]

Also, no comment on AJ's weird comments re: me and Parama's reactions?
I feel like those posts are very indicative of their alignments personally.

[Stormcloud]

AJ, why did you ask why I'm the second mason?
I clearly told you right in the post that you quoted in post 1017 that implosion confirmed me as the other mason. Even if you haven't caught up to that point, you know he's dead and flipped. Why would I ever lie about that when you'd just find out the truth as soon as you read?
I understand your confusion about my reads on implosion - I explained pretty clearly why I did that. But I don't understand why you're doubting that I am the other mason.

[Stormcloud]

Ah, I thought you were voting for someone else.

[Stormcloud]

Because at that point it was pretty early in the day - I like to poke as many people as possible for content day 1 and not let anyone slip by. If I had not known implosion was town, I would have absolutely been supporting the wagon to see how he dealt with the pressure and defended himself - the reason I didn't vote, of course, was because I knew he was town.
I was trying to appear as if I didn't know implosion's alignment and was considering the possibility of him as scum, when I was actually not.

I've actually never been scum before in any game so entering this one knowing another player's alignment made me pretty nervous about how to talk about and relate to that person naturally without seeming scummy.

However, like I said this is all very interesting stuff we can talk about after the game is over. For now, my motivations don't really matter because I'm confirmed. I'd love to chat about other people's reactions to me, reads on me, and reactions to the mason reveal if you'd like, but I think the subject of MY posting motivations isn't going to be very fruitful considering you already know my alignment.

[Stormcloud]

Hiya Alisae!
Do you want spoilers or would you rather read first?

[Stormcloud]

Comm's kinda been that weird and pompous and stuff for the whole game, which is the only reason I'm not automatically assuming that he's scum from that post. It certainly is annoying but somehow I think he'd be doing the same damn thing as town :/
I'm a little nervous about a Comm lynch because his behavior's been so odd that I kinda think he's an easy mislynch.
But that doesn't make him town ofc.

[Stormcloud]

Spoilers:
Day 1:
Push on Implosion. Implosion and I reveal we're masons. Pretty much universally believed.
Push on Transcend with lots of people intending to hammer/thinking they hammered etc. Doesn't actually die. Transcend suggests Syryana instead.
Parama starts to read Transcend as town due to his frustration at being the D1 lynch.
Push on Syry, I don't think either mason joined really.
Day drags out a little but ends in a Syry lynch.
Syry vanilla town and implosion flips as Town Mason, which you've probably already seen.
Lots of replacements Day 2 so we haven't gotten much done really.
Your slot looked town to start but basically stopped posting other than occasional votes for a while.

[Stormcloud]

Because we were waiting for a Kain replacement
And he wants your blood lol

[Stormcloud]

Alisae, I like that your paranoia about Parama/Transcend matches mine.
But it would be extremely easy for scum to come in, read the game and see who the confirmed town is feeling paranoid about, and encourage them/agree with them to buddy them.

AJ where were these reads before? Have you just caught up with the game? Or are you just using Alisae's accusations to start a new wagon that isn't on you? Because that's what I'm seeing right now.

[Stormcloud]

Uh, I'm not even sure what the point of your thought is, so I don't really have an opinion on it.
It does look like AJ is agreeing with Alisae, but given that Alisae isn't scumreading him and is starting an alternate wagon that isn't him, that's not a surprise by any means.
What I want to know is, did AJ have these thoughts on Transcend originally? He wasn't really expressing them very strongly until Alisae came in and started attacking Transcend.

Syryana became the counter wagon because both Parama and I thought Transcend looked town enough to not be the day 1 lynch. Syry was the only real alternative wagon with any momentum. No, it doesn't make Transcend town or scum by itself - it's more about exactly how those wagons dissolved and formed and the interactions there that are important.
Just the fact that there was a counterwagon doesn't make anyone town or scum automatically - nothing can really do that, everything is fakeable if scum is good enough. It's about how it happened, and Alisae is reading those events as making Transcend more likely to be scum.

[Stormcloud]

I think AJ is a much better lynch now than I did before.
I still think Comm is just weird town.

[Stormcloud]

Alisae is voting for Transcend.
I'm of a mind to join him.
I'm not lynching Kicker today without some real reasoning behind it. I townread Tweet and I think her lack of content was RL related, not alignment related. Kicker's been fine and there are far better targets in my book.

[Stormcloud]

Ok "you've done sheep all" is hilarious

Thought a little bit and reread and I wanna see where this is going
VOTE: AJ
Don't hammer without claims/discussion please.

[Stormcloud]

Uh, I actually put you at L-1 AJ lol. But your latest posts are not encouraging me to remove my vote, so I won't.
I'll be the first to admit my read isn't confident, but it's the best I've got right now and I don't want the day to drag out to deadline.

pedit
I see your point wrt to me living over implosion - but I think pretty much any scum would do that. I'm clearly the less experienced and more easily manipulated of the two masons, it makes total sense to let me live no matter who the scum is.

[Stormcloud]

I mean if I was gonna dig for "reasons Transcend is scum" nightkill analysis would definitely be on there. But that's so WIFOMy, maybe scum did that to try and frame you. I'm not taking it as a good argument.

[Stormcloud]

Alisae I think that's what he means by no claim. It would be anti town play for a power role to not claim here.

[Stormcloud]

Neither of us had real solid reads on anyone either so trying to say that I lived because I tr Transcend at the time is just a weak argument. I could have very easily flipped on that today at any point given how unconfident my reads are.

[Stormcloud]

AJ you seemed to be implying that Transcend is scum because he would leave me alive because I was townreading him and he thought I'd be easy to manipulate. Therefore me living and implosion dying means Transcend is more likely scum. It has nothing to do with your slot at all.

"Nor does it change his manipulation attempt on a claimed mason. And the fact that TOWNIER CLAIMED MASON lives, and LESS TOWNIE ONE dies."
This is the bit I'm referring to.

[Stormcloud]

Alisae: Transcend's been pushing it for ages. Comm hopped on and then I decided I wanted to apply some pressure and see what happened.
I don't think it came out of thin air. If anyone on the wagon is suspicious it's probably Comm - Transcend just really doesn't like AJ and hasn't since AJ was Robster.

[Stormcloud]

It's not a wagon without opposition for sure - you and Kicker I believe don't support it at all, and neither does Parama? So it's not all that crazy - two people voted together and then the confirmed town put it at L-1.

[Stormcloud]

AJ: Yep absolutely right that he was buddying and trying to get me on his side, but I was a claimed mason at that point. He'd do that regardless of alignment. If he's town it's pretty nice to be townread by the mason - if not then you still want that. I don't see it as alignment indicative. Yes it sucks if he's scum and manipulated me, but I have to trust and believe someone at some point.
If you're town I think you're super tunnelling right now. I can understand why you think he's scum - I have my own misgivings too - but I have to make a choice at some point. My choice happens to not agree with yours.

[Stormcloud]

UNVOTE:
I gotta go to bed. If the day ends while I'm asleep, good luck town!
If not, I look forward to waking up to some more discussion

[Stormcloud]

Have people finally seen the light? Could I actually manage to get my true scumreads lynched?
VOTE: Transcend

[Stormcloud]

I'm pretty happy either way lol. I feel like there's probably one scum in those two.

[Stormcloud]

Nice job town! I'm glad my weird gut sense turned out right, even if I never successfully managed to push on it.
Really fun first game with great players, although all the replacements later on really confused me so I'm kinda glad I didn't have to be in lylo lol.

[Stormcloud]

After the last events of day 2 I don't think there was much of a way to get my paranoia of you to go away. That said, ThinkBig and Comm both articulated their feelings about you and pushed on you and CloudKicker far more effectively than I likely would have been able to, so maybe leaving me alive would have been the right choice lol.