Mini Normal 1861: Musical Mafia (TOWN WIN)

[BlackVoid]

Hey IAI! Hopefully you're town again. Can you give me a rundown of important stuff while I catch up? I've been loosely following the game and initial impression is that I want to lynch Cloudkicker/Shadow's slot. Cloud's early posting seemed like the same fake "I'm scum, wink wink" bs posting he did in mhsmith's game and Shadow was very inactive which is not like his towngame at all - I've seen him as town twice.

@Mod

- I'm a little confused by what's happening. Could you do me a favor and update the OP and tell me a) What day we are in, b) full list of dead people, c) who replaced who, and d) links to start of each day. Thanks!

[BlackVoid]

I may spam the thread a bit while reading up as I react and ask questions on the fly.

Would you mind just compressing all your thoughts into a few posts instead of making a new post for every single thought you have?

[BlackVoid]

I understand you are trying to go for a "stream-of-consciousness" style but it's perfectly possible for you to just quote posts and reply to them without hitting submit after every quote. I'd just really appreciate it if you stop spamming the thread because you are not the only one who's trying to catch up and nearly the entirety of the last two pages is just you.

[BlackVoid]

Finished the first seven pages. Kairal and Flubbernugget are townreads. Naomi's slot and AJ are scumreads. I also don't buy massive's claim. Even night cop and odd night cop together are too convenient and I'm not sure why everyone else is. It's far more overpowered than a regular cop because that would be two additional people that the scum need to kill other than the confirmed innocents. I also don't think odd-night cop, even-night cop, and JK all exist in the game.

Today is the day before lylo (in the event we mislynch). So, we should mass-claim. I also think having confirmed town decide the order is optimal strategy not to mention more efficient. I think we should go in the order of Naomi -> AJ -> Dierfire/Culted/IAI -> Kairal -> Flubbernugget.

[BlackVoid]

Sorry guys, it's going to take me a couple more days I think but I'll keep you updated with my reads so you know where I'm likely to vote. I'll respond to the recent stuff once caught up.

[BlackVoid]

Vote Extension

so I can finish catching up. How many do we have so far?

[BlackVoid]

Still reading. I read everything so it's going to take me a while. Can we have one more person vote extension please? Massive? Flubber? Culted? Dierfire?

By the way, no comments on my mass-claim proposal? We're a day off from lylo so unless there's some part of site meta I don't understand, now

is

the optimal time for mass-claim.

[BlackVoid]

I'd like AJ to go next too.

[BlackVoid]

Do you disagree that now is the optimal time to mass-claim? Do you think leaving it until a possible lylo is a better strategy?

[BlackVoid]

Up to page sixteen and I have a lot of time today so I should be caught up soon. In the meantime, if anyone could post a list of all the claims so we can see who else is unclaimed and speed up that process, that would be great so we don't rush. I also think having claims will help me read through people's early posts with that lens which could be helpful.

[BlackVoid]

Massive - Even night cop
Kairal - VT
NaomiTan - VT
AJ The Epic - VT
Culted - VT
Dierfire - VT
IAmInnocent - VT

Looks like it's just Flubber left (besides me).

[BlackVoid]

Hi. Please don't end the day until I catch up. Current thoughts are that Massive is almost certainly town unless Flubber is a PR. I think just one odd-night cop and a JK is too little power (but I made a gross setup error in mhsmith's Mini Normal so IAI, correct me on this if I'm blatantly wrong). Kairal and Dierfire are my next strongest townreads. Not so sure on Flubber anymore. Starting page twenty-seven. Hopefully, I'll get through D1 tonight and the rest tomorrow and post my thoughts then. Off the top of my head, AJ and Culted look the worst to me so I'll probably support wagons there. Not sure on Naomi either. I thought Shadow was surely scum for that replace out but he also replaced out in a recent game as town so that's not alignment-indicative.

[BlackVoid]

Okay, so I've finished the first forty pages. Going to read up on the rest today. With Flubber's claim, it's all but assured that Massive is town. I don't think odd-night cop + JK is sufficient power at all.

I don't want to lynch Kairal. I agree that his changing votes every few hours is pretty town. I don't want to lynch IAI today either. I'm not sure about anyone else but my current lynchlist is Culted > AJ > Flubber.

@IAI - would you mind going more in-depth into your Cloudkicker townread? I remember we were both wrong on him before so I want to know where it was coming from.

my recollection and limited review of previous games supports the idea that Shadow_step is no less active as Mafia than as Town.

What are you basing this off of? In Podoboq's game, he was incredibly active and pushing things a lot before he replaced out. That has not been my impression at all.

[BlackVoid]

That makes sense. Where are you at with AJ the Epic?

[BlackVoid]

Oh man, I wish we had a longer extension. This is cutting it really close but I have free time now so I'll try and finish up tonight.

@Kairal, how is your lynch list the exact same as mine?

[BlackVoid]

I prefer Culted or AJ. Not caught up but I'll leave my vote here.

VOTE: Culted

[BlackVoid]

Why not culted?

[BlackVoid]

I was going to post a full VC but I'm still on page 50 and I just want to spend my time catching up. Can someone do me a favor and post one? Kairal?

[BlackVoid]

kai/naomi/iami

Flubber is an obvious deadline lynch on town if I've ever seen one.

This is a terrible scumlist. At this point I'm on board with IAI's list of 3 among {Culted, AJ, Dierfire, Flubber}. I really think Culted and AJ are the team with one of the others fitting into the third slot. I think scum are hardpushing a mislynch at this point so they can get to lylo. And it's extremely difficult for town to win from a 7-way lylo.

[BlackVoid]

I'm going to pause at the end of page 62 and pick this back up in an hour or so. That's a lot of posts to digest. But I've skimmed the rest of the game so here's a VC.

Unofficial Vote Count

0 - Dierfire:
0 - BlackVoid:
4 - Kairal: Massive, Culted, Aj The Epic, Flubbernugget
1 - Flubbernugget: Naomi-Tan
0 - I Am Innocent:
0 - Naomi-Tan:
3 - culted: I Am Innocent, BlackVoid, Kairal
0 - massive:
0 - Aj The Epic:

Not voting: Dierfire

With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline is (expired on 2017-01-13 15:30:00)

It looks to me like the entirety of the scumteam is likely voting for Kairal.

@Massive - Let's talk about Kairal. I really don't think he's flipping scum here. He reminds of another player (nn30 in this game) who posted an obscene amount of content, made cases on nearly every player in the game, changed his mind on a dime everytime someone made a new argument. I just don't think it's possible for a scum player to play that way. Kairal is a relative newbie but has more posts than any other player in the game. He's spent a ridiculous amount of time trying to gamesolve, trying to figure out the scumteam and what possibilities work. AJ and others are using his inconsistencies as a reason to attack him. But town are often inconsistent and contradict themselves when they look at multiple different possibilities. If you look beyond the minutae and at the big picture, it's incredibly unlikely Kairal is scum here.

Let me know if you'd be willing to go with any of Culted, AJ, Flubber, and Dierfire and in what order you suspect each of them. My preference today would likely be Culted or AJ but once I catch up on the remaining pages, I'll outline who I suspect most. Just want to see where your head is at right now.

I'm sure IAI and Kairal wouldn't mind lynching AJ so we can agree on that, I'm sure we can achieve a lynch there too.

[BlackVoid]

Finally caught up. Wow, it took me a week.

@IAI

, I'm leaning towards going for AJ first. I think given his activity level, I'm leaning towards him being a bigger threat. I don't know if I'll be alive tomorrow so it would be nice to flip him today. Let me know whether you are more confident in Culted or AJ. Kairal said he's okay with AJ as well so either way, we've got three votes and need two more.

Updating this as I didn't see massive's unvote.

Unofficial Vote Count

0 - Dierfire:
0 - BlackVoid:
3 - Kairal: Culted, Aj The Epic, Flubbernugget
1 - Flubbernugget: Naomi-Tan
0 - I Am Innocent:
0 - Naomi-Tan:
3 - culted: I Am Innocent, BlackVoid, Kairal
0 - massive:
0 - Aj The Epic:

Not voting: Dierfire, Massive

With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline is (expired on 2017-01-13 15:30:00)

[BlackVoid]

Why not culted?

Cause there on less than half peoples red read. while flubbs just seems to be on partially everyone's.

Why does that matter though? Me, IAI, and Kairal all have Culted and AJ as potential scum. With your vote on either of them, it'll be 4/5 and we'd just need one other player to hammer.

[BlackVoid]

Yeah well you, me, and IAI are on the same page. We just need two more people to agree with us.

[BlackVoid]

Going ISO and try and figure out which of Culted, AJ, Flubber, and Dierfire are town.

[BlackVoid]

Went through Culted's ISO. Pretty confident he's scum. The measured activity level - only showing up at strategic times, the bad pushes on lots of flipped town (Newman, Io, Jin), people I know to be town (Mini Death Star), or people I'm townreading (IAI, Kairal). Townreads on likely scum candidates (Flubber, AJ, Dierfire). How in the world is AJ "obvtown?" Didn't really see any interactions that don't look partner-y from my group of four but I'm leaning towards him being scum with AJ.

[BlackVoid]

mhsmith0 will be taking care of yall until Tuesday, as I'm going out of town

Please give him the rolelist and all info about the game so he can do the flip, process night actions, and if necessary, start the next day. If possible, you should be giving him the ability to lock the thread as well but if not, I'm sure we can work on an honor system of nobody posting during the night. But in either case, him having complete info about the game would be great.

[BlackVoid]

Read through Dierfire's ISO. If there's one town among my group of four, it's probably Dierfire. I don't understand the townread on AJ and it's based on nebulous stuff like attention to detail but I can see why he'd have culted and dierfire as town, and I like that he eventually started suspecting both of them. I suppose we shouldn't rule out the possibility of bussing especially when he has Kairal - the likeliest lynch - also in his scumreads. But I think his checking people's meta is townish on a perfunctory level. Not that scum can't do it, I just see town doing it more and on average, town work harder at developing reads. So, Dierfire's probably the one I don't want to lynch today. Going to go over Flubber next.

[BlackVoid]

Why? Reads-wise, Dierfire beats Flubber any day. Flubber's reads are pretty bad from what I remember and he made way too many bad pushes. If Dierfire is scum, he's playing very well and is being very thorough. I don't know if that's how he is as scum but I've liked quite a few of his posts.

I saw your point on his predecessor but I think that could be attributed to a lot of factors like him just being overwhelmed with this game and wanting to join a newbie game first.

In any case, Flubber isn't really my preferred lynch. It's AJ I'm considering lynching over Culted.

[BlackVoid]

@IAI and Naomi: what do you think about going for AJ?

[BlackVoid]

I actually think AJ is more obviously scummy than Culted. He spent most of D1 shouting down Io and getting her lynched, then when my predecessor starting considering Io's reads, he was pretty intent on shutting her down.

[BlackVoid]

My bet is that Io's reads were pretty dead-on.

[BlackVoid]

Well, I'm likely dead this night phase and I'm not confident enough in that townread to try and persuade you so I guess I'll leave it at that. Hopefully, Dierfire shows up tonight so we can engage in real time and I can leave an accurate read on him for people to consider in lylo.

VOTE: AJ The Epic

I'm leaving for a few hours but I'll be back tonight so if anyone wants last minute real time real time discussion, I'll be here from 8 till midnight pst.

[BlackVoid]

I don't think it's IAI but from your POV, you might as well resolve that by lynching AJ.

[BlackVoid]

Who are your top three by the way?

[BlackVoid]

Why not culted?

Cause there on less than half peoples red read. while flubbs just seems to be on partially everyone's.

Wait, you said you didn't want to lynch Culted because there's no support for that lynch but now you are implying that Culted is town?

[BlackVoid]

Okay, read Flubber's ISO. I don't like that most of his pushes are on town. Similar issue as with Culted. He has next to zero interactions with AJ, only perfunctory interactions with Culted, and I don't like that late hop onto the Kairal wagon either.

I still think the scumteam is AJ The Epic, Culted, Flubbernugget. Reads roughly in that order. Heading out now. Please vote AJ.

[BlackVoid]

Unofficial Vote Count

0 - Dierfire:
0 - BlackVoid:
3 - Kairal: Culted, Aj The Epic, Flubbernugget
1 - Flubbernugget: Naomi-Tan
0 - I Am Innocent:
0 - Naomi-Tan:
0 - culted:
0 - massive:
3 - Aj The Epic: Kairal, BlackVoid, I Am Innocent

Not voting: Dierfire, Massive

With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline is (expired on 2017-01-13 15:30:00)

[BlackVoid]

It seems like it's Kairal-Naomi-IAMI vs Flubber-AJ-Culted and I'm 100% it's not as easy as that.

This actually makes a lot of sense. I think it's Flubber/AJ/Culted though but there's some paranoia that I'm completely wrong about everything. I'm placing some weight into Io's reads going down because he was in the best position to analyze who was going after him opportunistically. He was calling AJ scum with a lot of conviction while AJ was browbeating him down and shoving the lynch through. MDS brought this up too but AJ quickly tried to discredit the fact that she brought up Io's reads.

[BlackVoid]

Okay, but who are your top three?

[BlackVoid]

So, you think the only town power is a JK and an odd-night cop?

[BlackVoid]

Also, there are sixteen hours to go and none of your top three have any votes on them besides your own. Any reason you haven't voted AJ yet?

[BlackVoid]

See VC in 1737.

[BlackVoid]

Cool, have you caught up fully? What are your updated reads?

[BlackVoid]

Is there any chance that we can swing back, or move to Flubbernugget, for those of you reading all three as Mafia?

Why are you reading AJ as town though?

[BlackVoid]

I don't find them all that indicative of AJ being town. Who do you think is the third partner then to Culted and Flubber?

[BlackVoid]

The problem is if AJ is town and it's Culted and Flubber, I also think it's very unlikely that you or Kairal are scum based on how they wagoned Kairal and how you are advocating for their lynches over AJ. That just leaves Naomi (but then, why would she advocate Flubber over Kairal or Culted?) or IAI is snowing me.

[BlackVoid]

@Dierfire: saying he townslipped is something Cloudkicker does as scum. Here are a few quotes from a previous game that IAI and I played with Cloudkicker:

Spoiler: Mini 1843

>I dont actually know if this is towny or considered anti-town for outing possible soft but, why using the word

Innocent

capitalized over town/townie/sided with the town ? And if this was a soft, wold you make yourself the goal to have interactions with me almost every single you have? like i feel you have 0 actuals reads on me.

Innocent is capitalized because I was talking about a player that is in the game -> "I am Innocent" I don't blame you for missing it that, he's a lurking bum right now.

I agree with Blackvoid's feelings when it comes to Rask, his wagon and Hoopla. Post 147 is good.

VOTE: Sable Spread out the votes

Wrong game?

LOL woops btw i just townsliped that i cannot be mafia with i am innocent or i am a pro at forum mafia in my first game

wow okay sorry i fucked up the format but essentially

1.TF proved that he didnt read scotty or my post when he asked why i said that. I literraly quoted scotty in the very same post when he said i was lurking

2.hey victor, congratz on not buying a literal townslip, how townie you are to discredit exactly a town calling a non-team slip on him self with a random dude. i will hardfos anyone who believe i am mafia with iaminnocent ->I dont care if you disagree, its exactly what happened

LOL woops btw i just townsliped that i cannot be mafia with i am innocent or i am a pro at forum mafia in my first game

Usually when you point out things like this yourself they're less likely to be true than if someone else noticed it themself. Kinda like when people use the argument "I would never do X as scum", when that person has been doing X all game.

I come from a site where its very very hard to townslip on purpose and this was genuine. Its not alignement indicative to point said slip, you can then judge for yourself if you believe it is one or not Mostly scum will disagree, ppl who will 100% buy it are scum pocketing you and the rest is yolo. Seriously most of the users on EM are disgustingly incompetent at mafia so i point out the slips. But i agree with the wifom.. i would never wifom like that as scum
Also, its just a non-team slip and its an obvious one

[BlackVoid]

Are you particularly worried about a team that includes Aj The Epic and me but does not include either culted or Flubbernugget? I ask because I agree that my current lynch list is missing a Mafia player, but I'd find it a lot easier to work through associations with a Mafia player flipped.
So, unless you're worried about {Aj The Epic, Dierfire, I Am Innocent} or {Aj The Epic, Dierfire, Naomi-Tan}, I'd prefer to just have you pick culted or Flubbernugget and I'll follow.

Actually, the more you post, the more convinced I'm becoming that you're actually town especially with the way you are approaching the game right now. I can't figure out why IAI is scumreading you and townreading Flubber because Flubber definitely comes off way worse.

I think AJ is probably a larger threat than either Flubber or Culted which is why I wanted to flip him first but that's probably not a great reason. I suppose I'll switch back to either Flubber or Culted. Let me think on it a bit. We also need to make sure we'll all be online and we can get enough votes there. I don't want to end up with no lynch or a Kairal lynch because somebody is not online.

Are you going to be able to post tomorrow before deadline? If so, what time are you free?

[BlackVoid]

I need a vote count before I act before sleep.

There was one on the last page and I even linked it to you but I suppose I can read you a bedtime votecount as a screw-you to the mod for not doing them enough.

Unofficial Vote Count

0 - Dierfire:
0 - BlackVoid:
3 - Kairal: Culted, Aj The Epic, Flubbernugget
1 - Flubbernugget: Naomi-Tan
0 - I Am Innocent:
0 - Naomi-Tan:
0 - culted:
0 - massive:
3 - Aj The Epic: Kairal, BlackVoid, I Am Innocent

Not voting: Dierfire, Massive

With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline is (expired on 2017-01-13 15:30:00)

[BlackVoid]

I have a stronger scumread on Culted than Flubbernugget.

@Dierfire, can you succinctly explain (or link to posts if you've done this already) your scumreads on Culted and Flubbernugget.

[BlackVoid]

Also, does knowing that Cloudkicker does the same thing regarding townslips as scum affect your read on Naomi?

[BlackVoid]

I ISO'd Flubber. I hate that nearly every push he's made has been in the wrong direction and I'm not a fan of the hop onto Kairal. But he's been emotionally engaged in the game and I think he comes across like he believes what he's pushing. His arguments with Grey and Massive feel that way. He's my weakest scumread.

I'm down with lynching either Culted or AJ today. If IAI, Kairal, and Massive get online and want to lynch Culted, I'll switch. Massive seemed to prefer AJ to Culted but I'm not sure of that. But I'll leave my vote on AJ for now. Just check back in tomorrow to see what the VC is like and decide then. I really don't want Kairal lynched though so I hope you won't vote him if it turns out to be him vs AJ.

[BlackVoid]

Yeah, we'll just wait for massive. I'm down for whichever of Culted/AJ he prefers more so we can secure a lynch there.

@IAI - what do you make of Dierfire's latest posts? If he's scum with Culted and AJ, why is he so particular about which partner he's bussing?

[BlackVoid]

Culted/AJ/Naomi isn't something I've been able to rule out yet.

[BlackVoid]

I wish that I had entered when Shadow did.. this slot is such an uphill battle -_- Like.. I've done everything I can to stop this slot stigma but its so hard. at this point in time.. I've posted the second most out of all players.. yet i'm still being punished the bad an weird choices CK and shadow made.. There should be enough content for you guys to use without citing CK and shadow.. Sigh.. oh well.. tomorrows another day.

PEDIT; personally I thinks flubbs entire push on massive reads as distancing. There is like 1 or 2 things showing them as being red. Like if they thought that way they would push. much like I been pushing flubbs lynch for most of my active time. Grey I can believe though as grey is kinda abrasive as green and can certainly come off as red to players who react negatively without looking too deeply into it. Given this attitude it would make sense to fuel his emotions. Personally flubbs on massive was on such a dull flame that I'm not sure if you can count it as pushing.

It's hard to take you and your suspicion of Flubber seriously when your biggest argument in favor of that is that he's

distancing

from massive.

[BlackVoid]

AJ it is then. Sorry Dierfire. @Massive, Naomi, please vote. There are literally six hours left to deadline.

[BlackVoid]

@Dierfire, it would be great if you could put down a vote for AJ as well. At least, if we're wrong here, that'll tell me I'm off somewhere in case I live to see tomorrow and I can re-assess the game then and help you with Flubber/Culted. You said you thought Kairal was town now. I think he's town too. He's going to flip town and his flip will do nothing to help re-examine the gamestate.

[BlackVoid]

Sweet win. I do think AJ has a point in that 2 cops and a JK are all pretty much confirmable roles that are not going to get lynched. Add to that, in most situations, there will at least be a couple of results or a missing nk and you have a heavily townsided game. I know I'd be frustrated with the balance if I were scum here. Personally my experience here so far has been that mods on mafiascum way underestimate how powerful town roles can be and often make setups far too townsided. But that's just me. I honestly think even a 10:3 all-vanilla game with normal nightkills is winnable if the town is competent enough.

I do think town deserved to win this one though given how many of us accurately nailed the entire scumteam. Io was brilliant D1 and me, Kairal and IAI had it figured out D3. I'm glad Dierfire looked so townie towards the end of D3. @Naomi, you are right in that Cloudkicker did a lot of damage to your slot but you did well to repair it.

Modding-wise, there is a lot of room for improvement. I can give specific feedback if Gamma is interested. Thanks for backing up the game, Mhsmith0.

[BlackVoid]

We also FOS people at my homesite. But it's just something players do, not something that the mod keeps track of. Honestly, it added more confusion than clarity so I'm glad you dropped that.

On modding, gaps in modding attention

is

actually a pretty big think to improve on. When you have a backup mod, you should be adding him to a mod PT and giving him all the info about the game so that he can actually process flips and night actions. I even made a post asking you to give him that info. Frequency of VCs should have been much higher. Eventually we winded up making our own VCs. OP should be up to date. For most of the game, it was about two days behind. I didn't even know what day we were in when I replaced into the game and thought it was D2 since SAJ's and Grey's flip weren't there. Adding the day of the game to the title would have been very helpful. Links to the beginning and end of each day in the OP would have been fantastic. Immediately adding people to a dead/spectator PT would be cool. I only got the link the following night after I got killed along with massive. Just make sure, next time you mod a game, you have enough free time to stay on top of the game and keep everything updated. For an example of a well-modded game, look at even mhsmith's or podoboq's games.

As far as the Cloudkicker situation is concerned, I think you made a rather subjective decision by force-replacing him. If you really thought he was playing against wincon, you should have modkilled him. Force-replacing really left a lot of people trying to outguess the mod. Eventually I don't think it mattered much since an investigation was wasted on my slot anyways so it didn't make a difference.

[BlackVoid]

Can we see the scum topic?