Large Normal 200 - Big Round Numbers - Game Over

[Wraith]

> Creature
> Gamma Emerald
> drealmerz

Well this is awkward

[Wraith]

> Creature
> Gamma Emerald
> drealmerz

Well this is awkward

What's awkward?

[ONGOING GAME] where I antagonized people, especially drealmerz

[Wraith]

Do you have meta on them that might be useful?

Don't think I'm allowed to talk about that until that game is over

[Wraith]

The game will end when all threats to town have been eliminated or that is not possible.

Singleball.

How does that confirm singleball? (Although, that is badly worded imo.)

Oh nvm, that does not confirm singleball.

Care to explain your original logic in the first place?

[Wraith]

TheRealGin-N-Tonic, there is something I'm failing to understand to do with your current actions in the round. You have voted to lynch Pine, which is all well and done, at this point in the game, 99% of the votes, won't have any ulterior motive behind them whatsoever, which is fine, if you don't have any main reason to be voting for Pine. However, you have currently created a contradiction, when trying to prove that your vote on Pine is legit, and has reasoning. The main problem with it, is as below:

It might be one-sided on Pine's side considering he's only made one post showing he's online but stopped saying anything afterwards, however on my end, to give you context to the vote, I recently played a game as an IC and Pine had day talk as scum and manipulated me throughout the game till I sided with him in LyLo and lost the game for town and said I'd vote Pine every game we play together that has daytalk.

I'd love to be able to tell mods in advance what roles to give Pine and I but the likelihood of me playing a game with Pine and I on opposite factions to set up a grudge vote scum theatre just for this game IF we both happened to roll scum would be a god like miracle. However, as much as I wish that was actually true, it is literally a close to impossible scenario, ergo the most logical conclusion is to not treat it as such and wait for more substance throughout the thread before you think you honestly caught 2/X scums when you're already wrong about at least 1 of them.

You are claiming that it is very unlikely, for both you and Pine to both be scum in the same game, however the roles are chosen randomly, and I believe in a random order. So just for the sake of it, lets say we had 10 towns in this game, and 9 scum, it is unlikely but go with it. If Pine was first to get a role, then you, there'd still be a high chance of you both being scum:
For Pine to be Scum: 9/19
If Pine is Scum, For Gin to be scum: 8/18
Therefore, For both to be Scum: Roughly 21/100

So it wouldn't be a 'god like miracle', ever.

Also another thing, when voting for somebody, you might thing they are suspicious or whatever. Therefore I have a question for you. If you are wanting to vote Pine, and argue for the vote on Pine, why are you suggesting he might not be scum via the 'when you're already wrong about at least 1 of them'???

UNVOTE: Alisae
VOTE: TheRealGin-N-Tonic

And, the reason for this totally useless nonsense is _____?

4-5 scum is a more logical coonclusion for the scum ratio. 9 scum in a 19p NORMAL game has probably a 1 in a Million chance AT BEST. (Most likely, there is a 0 zero chance of that happening cuz that makes Day 1 LyLo and could still screw town w/ a perfect game if it's multiball)

4/19 * 3/18 = 12 / (152 + 190) = 12 / 342 = 4 / 114 = 2 / 57 or <4% chance.
VOTE: Debi

I agree. Assuming 9 scum right off the bat implies foreknowledge of the setup, which in this case means scum. It's also such an absurd ratio that it would have to mean multiball.

Vote: Debi

[Wraith]

Assuming 9 scum right off the bat implies foreknowledge of the setup, which in this case means scum.

Implying there's 9 scum and Debi knows that?

In her second post of the game, using a 10 town/9 scum ratio as basis for a hypothetical is extremely unusual.

Frankly in a closed setup, that isn't a draft, and is a Normal, setup speculation right off the bat is not all that viable considering the majority of town players are going to have absolutely no information on the setup. So why bother unless you already have inside information?

So my primary conclusion is that Debi likely has some kind of setup foreknowledge to be making such a hypothetical so early. My secondary is that if Debi has setup foreknowledge, then her hypothetical implies that her foreknowledge is that the game is multiball. But the secondary can't be confirmed until she flips.

Either way the primary is enough for me to put down an initial vote.

[Wraith]

Trying to think if there are any Normal town-aligned roles that might have setup foreknowledge.

There's Mason, but Mason wouldn't have info on the number of scum or scumteams in the game. Same with Neighbor or Neighborizer.

Outside of those I don't think there's anyone and I don't think there's Informed roles in Normals?

[Wraith]

I think Debi just made a dumb assumption rather than showing actual knowledge.

Eh, yeah it could be a "culture shock" kind of thing since we know her regular forum isn't dedicated to the game like this one is, and so we don't know how they make setups or if they're balanced or what.

[Wraith]

@Debi: IIRC normal ratio for singleball is 1/4 scum-to-town.

[Wraith]

I agree. Assuming 9 scum right off the bat implies foreknowledge of the setup, which in this case means scum. It's also such an absurd ratio that it would have to mean multiball.

Vote: Debi

And this is also just bad. It's not extra info, it's just absurd assumptions to try to get someone lynched. Huge difference.

They're not mutually exclusive

[Wraith]

OH GOD OH JESUS

THE NEW PAGES OVERNIGHT

[Wraith]

Trying to catch up quickly before I leave for work.

Ircher and Grey's votes for me are misguided but at least have logical motivations. Alisae's though, makes no sense.

Should I give reads now?

Why are you asking for permission? Just do it if that's your thing.

Am I not allowed to ask if people care about my stance on the game?

Pine and Gin are my stronger townreads.
Uzi is probably town
Zach gun to my head town
Wraith townlean
Ircher townlean
Debi Null
Dunn scumlean
Creature Scum
Kyouko Scum

Anyone else null

Echo are you saying it's not a slip in this case?

What's not a slip, what debi said about the 10:9 or whatever? Nah, that was just human error. Just her trying to prove her point. I've done the same kind of thing before. No scuminess behind it.

You got my vote then
VOTE: Wraith

Rather quick 180.

And if #387 is the extent of her elaboration:

Echo are you saying it's not a slip in this case?

What's not a slip, what debi said about the 10:9 or whatever? Nah, that was just human error. Just her trying to prove her point. I've done the same kind of thing before. No scuminess behind it.

You got my vote then
VOTE: Wraith

So, is this a sheep vote or are you voting a scumread?

The lack of clarity in your posting is what has me happy to lynch you.

Well, that and the fluffing, and buddying, of course.

Voting a scumread.

Yeah, wee-oo wee-oo wee-oo

This sequence is also really bad:

From her position on the short end of a big wagon, this looks like appeasement. Town doesn't try to appease, they try to lynch their own reads

I'm tryng to lynch Wraith. He is my own scumread.

And Yeah no, I'm not buying that shit Pine.
Especially since people haven't posted.

VOTE: Pine

16 people have posted in this thread, 2 of which don't really have that notable content (AA and the other dude who has only one post). And there's Zach.
If you're scum, you're trying to end the day quickly so that hopefully none of your scumbuddies fucks you over.

Fine, now that I buy Pine.
VOTE: Wraith

BTW I still don't TR Pine as much as I did anymore, but the fact he stepped back from that seems okay I guess.

Either way, I think your scum on my wagon, since you didn't want the other people to get a chance to post content.
And fine, I'll stick to my guns some more.
VOTE: Pine
Going to bed, if I get lynched, look at Pine and Wraith.

Pine's reply in the middle of it sums up my feelings on it.

I also don't like rb's entrance to the game.

I skipped the first 10 pages. Someone who's town tell me where to vote

Looks like scum theater.

Nah, I doubt this. I'm TRing Pine for that fake dayvig (assuming it is fake).

Dumbest townread reason I've ever read

We should lynch Alisae or Gin

VOTE: Gin

Flashwagon pls

And is apparently still on about a Gin wagon. Not sure where that suspicion comes from but again I'm just skimming right now.

Ircher, Echo, and Grey are quick townleans from me. Yes, still Ircher even though others have pointed out he's probably wrong for the same reasons I was. His reaction there felt town to me.

Unvote

For now, I was probably premature in making a judgment so early as several players have pointed out. Hopefully I have time to put in a more in-depth re-read after work but I have a busy and stressful few days coming up that I have to prepare for as well. Right now Alisae shot up the suspect list. But since she's apparently at L-2 by page 15 I'm not putting a vote down until I do actually do that in-depth re-read.

[Wraith]

Still haven't gotten a chance to do a thorough re-read yet but I've been generally keeping track of the thread since this morning.

Alisae still seems scummy but I was starting to get the feeling it was too easy, so I'm agreeing with Creature who (I think?) said we shouldn't lynch lynchbait today.

I did a skim of RB's ISO an hour or so ago and definitely agree with Grey that this:

Also I can't decide if RB is town or scum.

On one hand he could be trying to derail the Wraith wagon by attacking two of the people that are on it.
On the other hand, would scum really do a push so bad on both me an Gin?

this bad push is going to have you both lynched on days 1 and 2 respectively

and if you wanna just tell me your other scumbuddy now that's fine too

Legit looks like a scumslip.

That said, I'm rather skeptical this game is multiball. I speculated possible multiball earlier because Debi's absurd hypothetical scenario could only be multiball, and it legit felt like a slip itself. But in hindsight now I definitely think I read way too much into some rather noob-y early hypothesizing.

But I'm skeptical that this would be a multiball game because 19 seems like too small a total for that. I figured multiball games would pretty much

have

to be in the 20+-player range. Then again, this is only my second real large game since returning to playing games after 5 years, so I'm potentially just out of touch here with how game size meta has changed.

So I'm pretty heavily leaning toward joining the RB wagon when I get home and have a chance to get through that re-read.

[Wraith]

@Grey: I said I'm skeptical it is, not that I'm discounting it as a possibility completely. And that skepticism is based on pure player numbers and meta opinion that is in all likelihood badly out of date. I'm basically bowing to the players who obviously have more expertise here.

[Wraith]

Alright so I'm finally back and underway with my promised re-read.

I'm starting to doubt my doubts about Alisae not only for his recent posts but also something in particular from earlier that I'm now noticing.

[Wraith]

This will mostly be stream-of-consciousness, except for the following.

The first big thing I'm noticing now is Alisae's #59:

Looks like scum theater.

Nah, I doubt this. I'm TRing Pine for that fake dayvig (assuming it is fake).

Firstly, I think it's garbage to TR someone for an extremely early and obviously fake Dayvig. Secondly and more importantly, are Dayvigs even considered a Normal role? The wiki says a Vigilante is considered normal if their kill flavor is distinguishable from the scum's, but does that mean a Dayvig is considered Normal? I'm skeptical, the Dayvig role is extremely powerful for a normal IMO even if it was just one shot, which almost certainly wouldn't be wasted by the player who has it within the first dozen or so posts. So this comes off to me as a really fake way of expressing a townread.

The second and even bigger thing with Alisae is her sudden 180 on me from townread to scumread, which I mentioned at the time rubbed me the wrong way big time. She townreads me for a really vague and weak reason in #206 and #215.

Should I give reads now?

Why are you asking for permission? Just do it if that's your thing.

Am I not allowed to ask if people care about my stance on the game?

Pine and Gin are my stronger townreads.
Uzi is probably town
Zach gun to my head town
Wraith townlean
Ircher townlean
Debi Null
Dunn scumlean
Creature Scum
Kyouko Scum

Anyone else null

Ircher is just asking for people's stances and honestly right now I feel like he's playing his town game. He wants to understand where people are coming from.
Dunn I don't like he said Debi was one of his strong town right away. Seemed like he was trying to buddy Debi.
Wraith is currently gut. He's probably also one of my "gun to my head town" reads.

She never really elaborates on what "gun to my head town" means. Then she turns around and votes me in #239.

Echo are you saying it's not a slip in this case?

What's not a slip, what debi said about the 10:9 or whatever? Nah, that was just human error. Just her trying to prove her point. I've done the same kind of thing before. No scuminess behind it.

You got my vote then
VOTE: Wraith

But the thing is, I make no new posts between #206 and #239. She is convinced to change her vote to me (a wagon that gained momentum pretty quickly relatively speaking) for a reason that she had already seen and filed away as a reason to TR me instead. So a short exchange with Echo convinced her otherwise? I don't buy it.

This is what is making me more confident in joining the Alisae wagon than the RB wagon at the moment, since Alisae's slip is more play-related while RB's relies purely on setup speculation.

I'll continue my re-read and post a more stream-of-consciousness summary next.

[Wraith]

* Starting to share the opinion several others have already expressed that Creature immediately trying to peg the game as Singleball looks a little off. It took him until someone called him out on it and fifty or so posts to realize he was apparently mistaken?
* Alisae not reading the rules and voting Gin in #46/48 for mentioning scum daychat is another strike against him. It wouldn't look bad by itself but combined with the more egregious posts by him (JFC I keep writing "her" because of the username and avatar)...
* Ircher's RVS vote on drealmerz reminds me that dreal still has yet to post in this thread. Is he the only one left?
* I agree with Pine's #85 where Creature accusing "scum theater" (weak to begin with) and then unvoting Gin shortly after because a couple players called him out for it looks bad.
* I definitely misread Debi's #86 and gripped too hard to a fundamentally wrong conclusion. I thought she was legit setup-speculating but she was just proposing a really out-there hypothetical where Gin+Pine could feasibly end up scum together. It wasn't an accusation. My bad, my bad hard.
* Creature's logic in #103 seems sound for me which is why I gave him a pass for the Singleball speculation. Still...I dunno
* Now seeing my egregious mistake re: Debi I think Ircher fell into the same trap in his #106. Plus I've liked/understood the motivation for a lot of Ircher's posts since then. Ircher is one of my stronger townreads at the moment. He was right in that it was needless fluff though, I don't really know why Debi brought it up in the first place.
* Kyouko's #173 is a little odd. She says my vote on Debi is a "good vote" (I assume he's being sarcastic). But he completely ignores Ircher, who voted earlier than I did for an identical or almost identical reason. What?
* Gin comes off as a voice of reason a lot.
* Don't like Alisae's #225
* Echo is another of my stronger initial townreads. His #230 is part of that.
* As of the last five pages IIRC Debi never acknowledged my early attack on her, but did for Ircher. This strikes me as odd. This referring to her #242 in particular which reminded of this. Which in that post it's also odd that she is in fact assuming multiple scum factions. Gin points this out immediately after which is another reason on the pile to townread Gin.
* I've already said that RB's entrance to the game rubbed me the wrong way pretty strongly and I still don't like it. Him going after Gin doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me and looks bad, especially since this re-read has definitely reinforced my townlean on Gin.
* Though RB's #278 is good. More reason to prefer the Alisae wagon over him ATM.
* I have another strong initial townread for Grey. His early posts (#290-325 range) are what planted the seeds for that and he's been goodposting ever since.
* Which makes RB's sudden turn against Grey in #315 look mad suspect to me
* Alisae's scumread on Dunn in #363 is garbage. It was garbage to begin with, and it's even worse later on here.
* So I checked the front of the thread just in case and Kyouko is suddenly scummy to me. He horribly miscounts the Alisae wagon in the present somehow (#678) (where she claims Alisae is L-1 but is actually L-5), and I swear I remember her also doing this earlier in the thread. I'm right - #368 (less egregious, she says Alisae is L-2 but she is actually L-3). In fact, it those posts were her two most recent ones. What's going on here?
* As of #384 RB is seriously just throwing out accusations with zero explanation. It's not scumhunting at all but he seems convinced Gin is scum for no adequately-explained reason and then pegs people with guilt by association, also for no reason.
* I've already mentioned RB's possible slip from #309 which Grey points out in #395
* Gin's #397 even

more

reason to townread him
* Alisae STILL clings to the garbage Dunnstal scumread as of #409
* RB with the non-answer ad hominem to Grey's insight in #410
* Dunnstral returns in the #410-430 range. Would be nice if he elaborated on some of those reads.
* In #434 Alisae labels Debi VI without that much to go on and then draws scumreads based on that label. Inherently flawed logic leading to flawed conclusions which looks like fake scumhunting to me. This is the difference between players who get legit scumreads on me (Grey, Ircher, Echo) and players who don't, and is another big part of why I strongly scumread Alisae
* More goodposting from Gin in #442
* I still don't know what Alisae means by "'gun to my head' townreads"
* Alisae's #450 more bullshit reasons to townread someone. These are fake-ass reads.
* As of #455 Pine's reads line up with mine which is a good sign, but he hasn't posted/overtly scumhunted enough for me to be comfortable is townreading him yet as opposed to Grey, Ircher, Echo, or Gin
* The exchange between #457-474 looks even worse now than it did to me at the time. So Alisae's scumread on me in the first is odd and rather baseless as I pointed out in my last post. She's still clinging to it and claims that she's pushing for my lynch today (weak-ass effort). But based on one reply from Pine she's willing to 180 on her read on him and vote for him instead? And then jumps off and back onto me again after another single response from Pine? And then flip-flops yet again after Pine's shortest reply yet? This is bullshit. Her reads consistently come across to me as fake and her scumhunting/voting doesn't feel sincere at all.
* Interesting to note that in a vacuum I also expressed (joking) frustration at a bunch of pages appearing while absent in #481 but it apparently doesn't come across as a townslip to Alisae, in contrast to what makes her "townread" Echo in #450. I'll have to see how it develops later and come back to this. Human Sequencer does this same thing in #487. Another thing to keep an eye out for. EDIT: Nope, no reaction whatsoever to either. Alisae's reads are FAKE AS FUCK
* RB #491 apparently unwilling to read posts longer than a few lines. How is this pro-town behavior? I mean, he could be joking but come on
* Now that I'm much more confident in my Alisae scumread Creature's labeling Alisae lynchbait and (successfully) trying to derail that wagon looks pretty bad. Yet at the same time it would be extremely risky for him to put his neck out for a buddy so blatantly so I'm conflicted here.
* HS comes out swinging pages 20-21 which is a good sign
* RB being a stopped clock in #552/553
* Creature's #565 is

really

strange. Is he softclaiming a backup role that's not self-aware? That doesn't make a whole lot of sense for a Normal setup.
* Ircher clearly has a hard scumread on me and won't let go. I honestly don't blame him but don't let yourself get tunnel vision dude. That said his activity page 23 onward is largely goodposting
* Oh yeah GE and dreal both have yet to post in the thread. Any more?
* I generally get townish vibes from HS but he seems to look a lot at Grey for guidance. Which I guess is fine because right now he's my strongest townread
* I disagree strongly with Ircher's #598. If you "Policy Unlynch" all players you classify as "lynchbait" D1 then it gives incentive for scum to deliberately badpost.
* I think I'm comfortable giving light town vibes to Zach as of #504. Seems to be actually scumhunting and reading along in contrast to certain other players
* I don't think it's a coincidence that after Creature's pushing to not lynch players he deems lynchbait and Ircher's #598 echoing the same sentiment Alisae starts actively pushing the narrative that she's lynchbait. More points to HS for pointing that out first
* And after HS switches his vote it seems like Alisae stops bothering to fight and resorts to shitposting and mockingly echoing accusations other players have directed at her
* rb STILL clings to his baseless Gin scumread as of #663
* Even MORE goodposting from Grey #671
* I don't get what Creature is trying to say in #677 at all? How is my last post a "towncase" for Alisae? Why even say that if you're not going to bother elaborating? And yet I'm again torn because there is just no way Creature would stick his neck out blatantly yet again for a buddy at this point.

So so far

Townreads

Grey
Gin
Echo
Ircher

Soft Townreads

HS
Zach
Pine

Murky

Creature
Kyouko
Debi

Scumreads

Alisae
RB

Fucking finally caught up. Pretty damn confident in putting my vote here

Vote: Alisae

I'm pretty okay with a RB lynch too but definitely prefer this one.

Taking a long break.

[Wraith]

Okay I'll take your word for it.

You miscounting votes as a longshot way of delaying an Alisae wagon until derail while simultaneously being on the wagon as a means of distancing was theory I had in my head but it was admittedly a

really

tinfoil one.

[Wraith]

^@Kyouko BTW

[Wraith]

That is actually just how drealmerz is. I can't really talk about that meta though since that game is still ongoing.

[Wraith]

That is actually just how drealmerz is. I can't really talk about that meta though since that game is still ongoing.

you sure are talking a lot about the thing you can't talk about.

What I mean is I'd go into much more detail about it but can't.

[Wraith]

Fine, I'll just stand by over here I guess while this flashwagon starts.

[Wraith]

LA of sorts until Sunday or Monday

. I have a very stressful series of exams and interviews over the next few days that will be demanding my full attention.

[Wraith]

LA of sorts until Sunday or Monday

. I have a very stressful series of exams and interviews over the next few days that will be demanding my full attention.

[Wraith]

Oh wow I'm further behind than I first thought. I completely missed the Innocent Child announcement.

I'm going to have to do another big catch-up post after this weekend is over.

[Wraith]

Catching up again. I skimmed earlier and got a decent idea of what's happened. This will be another stream-of-consciousness post.

* I echo Dunnstral's sentiments in #810 on Creature's #799. Just saying "I've got a gut feeling" doesn't really tell the rest of us a whole lot. Please cite specific posts that give you this feeling. Or failing that, please just try to elaborate on how you've come to this "gut feeling."
* At first I didn't agree with the flashwagon on All Alone purely for returning from lurking and voting with no comment. Even when he continued doing that, I felt that it was a red herring - if he was scum and that was all he was going to do, he was playing the stupidest possible scum game I've ever seen. WIFOM aside, I'm just not buying that he takes that risk. This flashwagon felt rather scum-motivated to me, and I feel there was at least one, maybe more, scum who jumped on this opportunity among those who joined it - Dunnstral, Creature, Alisae, Echo. EDIT: The second flashwagon on him, forming after his Ircher vote, is much more justifiable and null IMO
* I also echo Grey's sentiments in #824 on Alisae's #822, and this is yet another instance on the pile of what I feel is completely empty, insincere fake scumhunting by Alisae. I really don't know why the wagon on Alisae has derailed because they've done nothing to dispel any of the problems people including myself have had with them. I'm going to outline everything I have against Alisae all at once either at the end of this post or in a second one immediately after it
* Ircher's #832 is nonsense. "Self-aware lynchbait" is practically synonymous with "scum trying to fake being VI"
* Ircher's #837 is a serious stretch and is probably the first thing that's come up that makes me doubt my townread of him. So far.
* It's annoying that I now know rb is confirmed town because although it means I can trust his word retroactively it also means he was deliberately half-assing it or playing like shit on purpose in order to lure scum votes or something. Which backfired entirely because practically half the playerbase put down votes on him before he was forced to reveal his role.
* I honestly don't know why everyone suddenly shifted to Pine after rb was revealed to be IC, so I'm going to have to re-read his ISO after this. It doesn't help that no one has bothered to explain why they turned on him and to my memory freaking Alisae was the only one who made accusations against him earlier.
* Ircher asking for a breadcrumb and then freaking voting for rb after a mod confirmation is incredibly stupid and served no other meaningful purpose than to give out free reasons for scum to point fingers at him and get away with it. Again, like All Alone's content-less votes this is an action so reckless and short-sighted that I don't think it is actually scum-motivated. EDIT: Uzi on the same page with me in his #903.
* FINALLY someone delivers a justification for their shift to Pine. Thank you Kyouko, now I have something to look for when reading Pine's ISO.
* Those votes by Alisae (yet a-fucking-gain) and All Alone in #912 and #914 on Ircher were incredibly scummy and opportunistic. Also rofl @ Creature's #915
* SMH at Alisae's #933. When I do my compilation of everything I have against Alisae I'm going to bring up the vote patterns. They're wishy-washy and opportunistic as hell.
* All Alone's #968 holds no weight because he's never bothered to explain how he decided to place his earlier votes in the first place
* Grey's #999 - mate, you need to stop dwelling on a statement I already clarified, where I promised to re-read and then when I did so placed my vote somewhere else entirely because of new information
* I don't agree with AA's Gin vote in #1001 but he at least explains his reasoning behind it. A lot of other players could do with following his lead in this case
* I think HS's #1007 is rather scummy. It's misinterpreting Creature's #793 in a way I feel is deliberate. I don't think it's a smart idea at all to lynch a lurker D1. A flip of a player who has interacted with no one and contributed nothing gives us little to nothing to go on in light of a flip.
* Creature seems rather preoccupied with pushing lurkers. Nevertheless agree with his push on GE at the time since it did get results after all.
* Count GE's #1026 as another "omg so many pages gosh" reaction that Alisae probably won't view as a towntell for someone (EDIT: NOPE). Apparently Echo is the only one who gets this special treatment from Alisae, how interesting.
* Oh boy here it starts. I'm just going to say this now: When dreal gets excitable or stressed, his posting style gets

extremely

grating and difficult to read, like word/formatting/punctuation vomit. If it gets bad enough I might start ignoring his posts entirely.
* #1049 Yeah I wonder why you're saying this Alisae. Oh wait.
* Zach my man with #1051
* Alisae's #1067 JFC kill it with fire. And in response to their #1069, Slick's point is that your wishy-washy voting shows a lack of real conviction and a propensity for blowing with the wind, which combined with your instances of fake scumhunting that I've pointed out in the past is just ridiculously scummy
* Okay, this is getting ridiculous. Creature's #1076 pushes him into the Soft Scumread pile for now. I get not liking lurkers and prod-dodgers, but at the same time there's no real case for voting most of these people outside of the lurking and again, a lurker flip D1 would give us nothing in terms of context or interactions. With his #1081, he is at least self-aware about this, which weakens my slight scumread of him.
* All Alone's #1084 JFC dude
* All Alone has a point in his #1086, even though I agree with the post AA is dumping on. It would have helped if Slick had spelled it out

I'm going to lay out a reads list in a different style, going down the player list and giving individual reads and why:

1. rb - CONFTOWN, obviously. Please stop shitposting/half-assing it and make better contributions, please.
2. Alisae - Top SCUMREAD. I'll lay out all the specifics together in my next post.
3. ssbm_Kyouko - NEUTRAL. I appreciate that she actually gave out her reason for voting Pine but I don't have much on him at the moment. I'd probably need to review his ISO but I need a break soon.
4. TheRealGin-N-Tonic - TOWNREAD. One of the town's consistent voices of reason IMO.
5. Lil Uzi Vert - NEUTRAL. No offense but he's practically been a complete non-entity to me. I guess the most I can say for him is that I feel we're on a similar page?
6. Gamma Emerald - MURKY. Has done nothing since returning from a long spat of lurking. Come on, man.
7. Zachstralkita - TOWNREAD. Generally speaks sense, and it's a good sign that I perceive him as the type of player who can say a lot with a little.
8. Creature - SOFT SCUMREAD. If only because the most memorable thing I can say about him at this point is that he has a hard-on for lurker lynches. I don't really know how to gauge him at this point because the majority of his activity is one-liners or extremely vague, confusing statements.
9. drealmerz7 - NEUTRAL. Same old, same old.
10. Ircher - SOFT TOWNREAD. Some of his recent activity has been WTF but his actions are so reckless and draw so much attention that I feel they're largely town-motivated. Strikes me as a townie who will act first and think later, which is nevertheless a really dangerous type of player to the town.
11. Pine - MURKY. Need to review this ISO later before I make a concrete judgment.
12. Human Sequencer - SOFT SCUMREAD. His #1007 was enough to push him into this category from town-leaning neutral.
13. -Grey- - TOWNREAD. Another voice of reason, even though his tunnel vision on me is annoying.
14. SlickDilinger - MURKY. Hasn't done much since returning from lurking. Even though I agree with his sentiments in #1069, I also agree with the sentiments of AA's #1086. Which seems contradictory but trust me it makes sense in my head. I think. I just think Slick didn't elaborate enough on the point he was trying to make.
15. Debi - MURKY. Seems to have disappeared.
16. EchoVision - SOFT TOWNREAD. I've generally agreed with his earlier posts but some of his recent votes are questionable IMO. And Alisae's very unusual TRing him and only him for expressing frustration at rapid thread growth is very unusual.
17. Dunnstral - MURKY. His posts are all over the place in terms of rationality. Sometimes I nod my head approvingly and other times I sigh and facepalm.
18. All Alone - SOFT TOWNREAD. Like Ircher I think his playstyle has been too overtly reckless to be scum-motivated. While several of his posts (#968, #1084) set off alarm bells I'm trusting my gut here for now.

I'll compile the Alisae stuff next.

[Wraith]

My beef with Alisae. This will largely be me copy-pasting all the bullet points from my two compilations with maybe some extra commentary. I just want to put it all in one post.

* Alisae not reading the rules and voting Gin in #46/48 for mentioning scum daychat is another strike against him. It wouldn't look bad by itself but combined with the more egregious posts by him (JFC I keep writing "her" because of the username and avatar)...
* Alisae townreads me in #206 and #215, then scumreads and votes for me in #239. I made no new posts between #206 and #239, the only thing that changed is she talked to Echo. And in light of her future voting patterns, she seems to be getting in on a growing wagon on the ground.
* Alisae gets a scumread on Dunnstral early on for weak reasons (#225) and continues to cling to it over time without wavering and without giving further reasons to maintain the scumread (#363, #409). As much as Alisae spams the thread she does very little to justify or explain her reads in general. I point to #409 in particular where she posts "woe is me I'm gonna get lynched I'll just post my reads with absolutely no context bye now." It reeks of falseness
* In #434 Alisae labels Debi VI without that much to go on and then draws scumreads based on that label. Inherently flawed logic leading to flawed conclusions which looks like fake scumhunting to me. This is the difference between players who get legit scumreads on me (Grey, Ircher, Echo) and players who don't, and is another big part of why I strongly scumread Alisae
* Alisae's #450 is pretty egregious to me. She townreads Echo for his apparent frustration at seven new pages overnight in his #231. Yet she doesn't react whatsoever to other players similarly reacting to sudden surges in thread activity - myself (#481), HS (#487), GE (#1026). Why does Echo get this special treatment? I'll also bring back up the incident where she 180'd on her read of me between #206 and #239, where I made no new posts in between those but what she did do was talk to and sheep Echo. Again, it appears to me that Alisae is coming up with bullshit reasons to read people and that way she appears to be scumhunting, but it reality she's doing nothing and joining the most popular wagon of the moment.
* Has so little conviction in her scumread of me that she'll flip to Pine after a short exchange, and then flips back to me after another, and then flips back to Pine YET AGAIN after another. Again, her scumread on me coming not from herself but from Echo. Oh, and with more "woe is me I'm gonna get lynched overnight" bullshit after the re-vote. This isn't real scumhunting folks, this is the appearance of scumhunting.
* Essentially claims VI after several players have called her lynchbait and continues playing that up even now.
* Joins the flashwagon on All Alone (with Dunnsral, someone she allegedly has a scumread on).
* Openly talks about a pressure wagon on Pine, defeating the purpose of a pressure wagon. Again, not scumhunting, but appearing to scumhunt.
* Joins the flashwagon on Ircher (WITH THE GUY SHE WAS SCUMREADING HUNDRED POSTS AGO)
* Rejoins the flashwagon on All Alone (more justifiable, but again, if she scumreads All Alone WHY DID SHE NOT IMMEDIATELY CALL FOUL ON THE IRCHER FLASHWAGON?)
* OMGUS scumreads drealmerz for scumreading her in #1049
* Pushes yet another flashwagon on Slick

Let's check the voting record - when they happened, who was already on the wagon, and whether or not anyone voted for the same target immediately after she did:

1. Kyouko (#6, RVS)
2. Gin (#46, Creature #23, All Alone #42, probably still RVS)
3. Creature (#63, Gin #41, Pine #85, probably still RVS)
4. Kyouko (#175, probably still RVS)
5. Wraith (#239, Ircher #146, Echo #231, Gin #241, sheeping Echo)
6. Pine (#466, knee-jerk)
7. Wraith (#470, Still Ircher + Echo, Kyouko #303, still a popular wagon)
8. Pine (#474, Creature #497, knee-jerk)
9. All Alone (#820, Dunnstral #816, Creature #818, flashwagon)
10. Pine (#853, Zach #852, Creature #855, Kyouko #890, flashwagon)
11. Ircher (#912, rb #910, All Alone #914, flashwagon)
12. All Alone (#933, Dunnstral #816, Echo #864, Uzi #923, rb #925, Creature #929, Ircher #964, flashwagon)
13. Pine (#976, Zach #852, Kyouko #890, actually a consistent scumread)
14. Slick (#1067, Creature #1076, Uzi #1090, starts a new flashwagon)

So the tl;dr gist is:

1. Alisae town- or scumreads players for extremely shallow and arbitrary reasons or for reasons she fails to adequately explain.
2. Alisae's vote changes practically every hour, primarily jumping on the most popular bandwagon of the moment.
3. Therefore, Alisae is not genuinely scumhunting or trying to contribute, and both her reads and votes both lack any sort of conviction or depth as a result. My conclusion is that she is scum trying to appear to be active and scumhunting but trying to blend into the background of wagons to conveniently shift off blame later.

[Wraith]

Have you ever thought of asking me to go more indepth on my reasoning instead of just saying I'm scum for it?

Why do I have to ask for it? Why are you not just saying it?

[Wraith]

Have you ever thought of asking me to go more indepth on my reasoning instead of just saying I'm scum for it?

Why do I have to ask for it? Why are you not just saying it?

To understand my reasoning a bit more. Unless you're scum and you don't care about that stuff.
Plus it's not my duty to prove to you that I am town. It's my duty to hunt, find, and lynch scum.

WTF kind of response is this?

My point is if you are actually trying to scumhunt then you should be posting detailed explanations for your reads with context anyways, without anyone having to ask.

I'm not saying you have to post massive walls of quotes and text. That can be done badly to the point it gets ignored (cough dreal cough).

It's the difference between

I scumread Wraith because his post finding rb scummy for apparently scumslipping multiball while also simultaneously being skeptical of this being a multiball setup. Therefore, I'm voting to lynch him.

and

I townread Debi for being a VI. I scumread Wraith and Ircher for pushing a lynch on a VI.

The difference is that Grey's reasoning for scumreading me comes from a logical thought process that is clearly explained; you have decided Debi is a VI for arbitrary reasons you fail to elaborate upon and then scumread players based on that initial unexplained, arbitrary conclusion.

And that's just one example of fake scumhunting out of several so far already. And you're trying to paint ME as the bad guy for finding you scummy for this crap?

[Wraith]

@Wraith:

Could you explain how you got your read on Grey? I don't remember him being a voice of reason so I'd like to know how you got that conclusion.

tl;dr He's coming to conclusions based off a clearly explained, visible thought process. Also just general goodposting.

Spoiler: Quote Wall

And, the reason for this totally useless nonsense is _____?

4-5 scum is a more logical coonclusion for the scum ratio. 9 scum in a 19p NORMAL game has probably a 1 in a Million chance AT BEST. (Most likely, there is a 0 zero chance of that happening cuz that makes Day 1 LyLo and could still screw town w/ a perfect game if it's multiball)

4/19 * 3/18 = 12 / (152 + 190) = 12 / 342 = 4 / 114 = 2 / 57 or <4% chance.
VOTE: Debi

Bad vote is bad.

Scum isn't going to deliberately post terrible numbers that can't possibly be true because it'll simply be corrected immediately. It gains them nothing.

Debi's terribad theorycraft is NAI.

I agree. Assuming 9 scum right off the bat implies foreknowledge of the setup

Welcome to my scum pile.

Echo are you saying it's not a slip in this case?

What's not a slip, what debi said about the 10:9 or whatever? Nah, that was just human error. Just her trying to prove her point. I've done the same kind of thing before. No scuminess behind it.

You got my vote then
VOTE: Wraith

So, is this a sheep vote or are you voting a scumread?

The lack of clarity in your posting is what has me happy to lynch you.

Well, that and the fluffing, and buddying, of course.

lol I didn't even notice this one my first time around

Also I can't decide if RB is town or scum.

On one hand he could be trying to derail the Wraith wagon by attacking two of the people that are on it.
On the other hand, would scum really do a push so bad on both me an Gin?

this bad push is going to have you both lynched on days 1 and 2 respectively

and if you wanna just tell me your other scumbuddy now that's fine too

Clarify this for me rb, are you saying there are only three scum? In a 19p game?

Wrong in hindsight but logical at the time.

Final reads before I go take a shower, go to sleep, and then wake up to find out that I got lynched.

Town: rb, Grey, Uzi, Gin, Pine, Echo, Debi, Zach
Scum: Kyouko, Creature, Wraith, Dunn, and maybe Ircher
Null: Everyone else.

I'd be interested in reading all about how your content resulted in all these reads.

Teach me, Yoda.

I also had the fact that Echo was annoyed that he missed 7 pages was a townslip. Seemed like genuine frustration to me.

You think scum is incapable of being frustrated?

You think town would be bent over 7 pages, which can be covered in less than ten minutes?

Idk, seems null to me.

I did a skim of RB's ISO an hour or so ago and definitely agree with Grey that this:

Also I can't decide if RB is town or scum.

On one hand he could be trying to derail the Wraith wagon by attacking two of the people that are on it.
On the other hand, would scum really do a push so bad on both me an Gin?

this bad push is going to have you both lynched on days 1 and 2 respectively

and if you wanna just tell me your other scumbuddy now that's fine too

Legit looks like a scumslip.

That said, I'm rather skeptical this game is multiball. I speculated possible multiball earlier because Debi's absurd hypothetical scenario could only be multiball, and it legit felt like a slip itself. But in hindsight now I definitely think I read way too much into some rather noob-y early hypothesizing.

But I'm skeptical that this would be a multiball game because 19 seems like too small a total for that. I figured multiball games would pretty much

have

to be in the 20+-player range. Then again, this is only my second real large game since returning to playing games after 5 years, so I'm potentially just out of touch here with how game size meta has changed.

So I'm pretty heavily leaning toward joining the RB wagon when I get home and have a chance to get through that re-read.

Uh?

The only way rb slipped is if the game IS multiball, so saying you think it's a slip but also saying you don't believe the game is multiball doesn't add up.

VOTE: Wraith

Scummy is scummy

But scummy != scum.

Your point?

Oh ikay so we don't lynch scummy players in this game we lynch towny ones?

Yeah nice

False dichotomy.

I didn't intend to promote a wagon, he has a cat in his avatar and we should spare him for now



we have rbs and Pines to lynch

I want to lynch Pine too, don't get me wrong, but why are you against a pressure wagon?

Admitting is a pressure wagon defeats the purpose of having it.

[Wraith]

Didn't you hear? Walls are for noobs!

[Wraith]

I usually do try to format why Walls. It's just these catch-up ones were SoC where I typed my thoughts as I read. Hence the warning

[Wraith]

Repeating my LA until Sunday/Monday

I'm leaving my home desktop for a couple days and we have reports to expect snow this weekend. I might get unexpectedly snowed in.

[Wraith]

Just popping in briefly to say I don't agree with the dreal wagon that's starting to form

[Wraith]

If I'm lucky I should be back home and ready to catch up tomorrow afternoon. If I'm lucky.

[Wraith]

FINALLY back without impending tasks due and I'm going to try catching up 30 freaking pages and counting. This starts at about page 47 and has ended at page 59. This is more grueling than I thought.

* Yeah in hindsight now Slick's #1065 looks pretty freaking scummy, and I agree with Gin and Ircher in that regard. "Not wanting to get in the way" of "strong scumhunting personalities" is no excuse for not scumhunting yourself.
* Not really that sure where the Gin flashwagon came from and I don't like it one bit, at least at the time I read this.
* One thing I remember from before my V/LA is that with Grey replacing out Zach and Gin are looking like the top town voices IMO even though they are ironically arrayed against each other
* I actually like Zach's #1194 even though I disagree with its conclusion and think it relies on a presupposed assumption. Why? Because he's laying out his line up thought in a clear manner, unlike certain other players in this game. But like I said, I think his a chief part of his conclusion here is assuming Alisae is lynchbait rather than scum playing that up.
* Still more garbage from Alisae in #1196. He hates how quickly the Slick wagon arose, but was the first person to actively push him as a flashwagon

by name

. And then he immediately sheeps Zach for yet another wagon! Are these kinds of contradictions really excusable by the "lynchbait" label? Alisae is clearly not scumhunting, I've said it several times and will continue to say it - and yet "not scumhunting" or "fake scumhunting" were the chief reasons for the flashwagons on Slick and Gin! What the hell is going on here?
* Alisae's clarification in #1202 would make sense...if he hadn't actively pushed Slick as a flashwagon! It's absolutely fallacious to say "hey let's flashwagon this dude" and then object when several people agree with you! And the flashwagon on Slick was the most valid one yet!
* The more I read the Zach vs Gin arguing the more I believe this is town vs town. Both raise valid points but seem to have entirely different perspectives dependent on who they each assume is town or scum. And I'm gonna be honest, I think I agree more with Gin here in

GINeral

general.
* I think Slick's #1218 is a blatant OMGUS vote he's trying to disguise by simply saying "I agree with Zach's argument."
* I think HS's #1252 is scummy. HS is strongly against lynching Slick but has provided no reasoning why. HS also seemed to be sheeping Grey earlier in the game yet is unwilling to eliminate Grey from a scum PoE list? Cognitive dissonance much?
* My man Zach being sensible in #1319. I think the sudden shift to drealmerz around this point is shady myself. I already hated Creature's "Lynch All Lurkers D1" mentality and it doesn't help that HS is on board with that as well. If Creature-HS-Uzi is really RB's "townbloc" then that's a really shit townbloc.
* I honestly don't know about Creature. I get a gut feeling that he's town based simply on how his posts FEEL (always a reliable indicator of something amirite?) but his Lynch All Lurkers policy being his defining trait so far is not a great sign.
* I think Debi is taking Gin's statement on RB way too narrow-mindedly in #1327. I took Gin's statement there as a blanket statement on the game, not what his personal strategy was going forward. But to each their own. TBH Debi's vote on Gin is one that seems more genuine than the others.
* My views

generally

line up with Creature's in #1344, which is a good sign. The votes on Gin by AA and Slick seem really opportunistic. The vote by Alisae seems both opportunistic and hypocritical. I trust Zach, Debi's vote seems the most genuine of the bunch (well, except for Zach), and I don't know what to think of Dunn at all.
* I agree with Ircher's #1367
* Hate Ircher's dreal vote in #1370
* Echo's Gin vote is serious crap
* #1380 thank you RB
* Dunn suddenly objecting to a Gin wagon in the form of unvoting at L-3 is awfully strange. If you're worried about the lynch reaching critical mass then why were you voting for him in the first place?
* Ayy Gin realizing in #1406 what I realized a while back praise be
* #1407 "Reaction Test" my ass. Such a test that you didn't do much in explaining the results of your test.
* Aaaaand Alisae proceeds to flail when Gin presses him on his "reaction test," or pretends to flail. Does anyone really still think this is genuine lynchbait?

So

tl;dr up to this point

:

* Slick has slipped into strong scumread category. I should have ragged on his #1065 more the first time but I got tunnel vision because Slick was anti-Alisae
* Alisae still scum
* HS still slippin
* Dunn and Echo have dropped
* Debi has risen
* Ircher, Gin, Zach still strongest townreads

I have company over so I'll have to get back to this tomorrow.

[Wraith]

JFC 10 pages since I started my re-read?

Spoiler: Notes

* Dreal being dreal
* #1485 I wouldn't rely on timestamp stuff at all as any sort of tell. It's impossible to know what real life circumstances might be going on to change peoples' plans
* #1505 Yes Gin this is dreal
* #1517 Zach my man again
* Okay dreal being dreal aside, #1522 is massively scummy and crap vote/post.
* Going to continue townreading the Grey/texcat slot until something big convinces me otherwise. It helps that I do really like #1527
* Jesus, Pine, #1534-1537 is like the worst return from lurking ever. It doesn't fill me confidence on you.
* Echo has definitely been slipping from my townreads since he went a-lurking. But his return and townreading Alisae while scumreading Gin and dreal makes me realize there seems to be a serious rift in the game at this point. People who townread Alisae tend to scumread Gin and vice versa.
* #1560 Okay now that I get that this was HS's original point this makes a lot more sense. I just wish he hadn't dressed it up with timestamp speculation. The fact is that dreal promised something related to VC and still hasn't delivered. That's all you need to say, no timestamp shenanigans necessary. It's a fair point even if it comes from someone I'm currently scumreading.
* It's honestly rather hypocritical of me to shame the dreal wagon while dreal is playing himself up as "low-hanging fruit" when I've thrown shade on Alisae for doing essentially the same thing
* #1564 Yeah it would really help if you elaborated on your strong reads Echo
* #1578 lol
* Don't care for Uzi's weak attack on texcat. I'm definitely strongly townreading texcat because her handful of opening posts have been more useful than hundreds by certain other players (I

wonder

who?)
* Uzi's activity on page 64 has him rapidly falling out of my town leans. I hate his attack on texcat, I

really

hate his exchange with Alisae on the subject, and I hate his switch onto Gin, especially since it comes from Slick, who is much more deserving of a wagon
* Okay scum or no Alisae is on fucking point with the reaction gifs/vids
* I agree with Creature in #1608. GE in particular being totally disinterested in the game is a very strange sign
* Ircher doing Town things in #1615
* At first I didn't have a problem with Alisae's vote in #1634, but yet another sudden shift back to Gin in #1645 makes it look bad in hindsight. Seriously, there's no conviction behind these votes. It again comes off to me that Alisae has no actual firm reads at all.
* #1652 #1655 Gin is so town.
* #1667 Gin is town. Alisae's #1669 is bullshit
* I am NOT reading multiple entire pages of dreal arguing with Alisae like a pair of ten-year-olds. So this is why the page numbers exploded over a weekend
* #1723 texcat is still town
* #1764 I think this has been the case for like thirty pages
* #1766 what the

fuck

is this? Why would you throw shade on a wagon and then JOIN THAT WAGON?!

Okay I'm up to page 72 now. I have to lay out a current reads status to keep myself on the same page

Spoiler: Reads By Player

1. rb - CONFTOWN, obviously. Please stop shitposting/half-assing it and make better contributions, please.
2. Alisae - Top SCUMREAD. Has only gotten worse.
3. ssbm_Kyouko - NEUTRAL. Lurking.
4. TheRealGin-N-Tonic - TOWNREAD. Still a top townread. Unfairly persecuted. I need to review who started this wagon because it's started off really flimsy logic. It was Zach. I still townread Zach but I townread Gin more so. I think some players (ALISAE, CREATURE, SLICK) are sheeping his flimsy justification and using it to mask some really scummy votes that don't feel genuine at all. Others (ECHO) aren't giving any excuse at all.
5. Lil Uzi Vert - SOFT SCUMREAD. As said, his page 64 activity made him drop quite a bit in my reads. It's a double-whammy of attacking texcat for weak reasons and switching to the Gin wagon.
6. Gamma Emerald/Titus - NEUTRAL. Lurking.
7. Zachstralkita - TOWNREAD. Still a townread. I think his attack on Gin was misguided and he should be seriously concerned at how many scummy-ass players have used his reasoning to sheep
8. Creature - MURKY. Was moving up but then his switch back to Gin was crap. His hard-on for lurker lynching is at least paying SOME results though.
9. drealmerz7 - SOFT SCUMREAD. Still impossible for me to gauge this slot but his activity so far has largely been a bunch of crap and empty promises.
10. Ircher - TOWNREAD. Still reckless but I think he generally speaks sense.
11. Pine - MURKY. Lurking.
12. Human Sequencer - SOFT SCUMREAD. Hasn't done all that much to convince me this read is off the mark.
13. texcat - TOWNREAD. Still a voice of reason even after replacement. The pushes against her have been serious crap
14. SlickDilinger - SCUMREAD. Re-evaluating some of his activity from the earlier re-read and it looks really scummy, and his jump on the Gin wagon is super opportunistic. He's also done absolutely nothing since the Gin wagon gained steam. If Alisae's scummy-ass activity wasn't so overpowering my vote would be here.
15. Debi - MURKY. Lurking.
16. EchoVision - SOFT SCUMREAD. Disappears, then comes back to join the Gin wagon and explain precisely zero of his reads, then disappears again. This Gin wagon is scummy as FUCK.
17. Dunnstral - NEUTRAL. Lurking.
18. All Alone - SOFT TOWNREAD. Lurking but nothing has convinced me this is off the mark yet.

Spoiler: Reads By Category

Townread

rb
Gin
texcat
Ircher
Zach

Soft Townread

All Alone

Neutral/Murky

Kyouko
Dunnstral
GE/Titus
Debi
Pine
Creature

Soft Scumread

HS
dreal
Uzi
Echo

Scumread

Slick
Alisae

The immense number of lurkers in this game is not helping at all.

[Wraith]

OMFG did you guys actually lynch Gin

WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE

[Wraith]

Oh thank god

THEN STOP SELF-VOTING

[Wraith]

Continuing from page 72

Spoiler: Notes

* Wow Echo's #1775 is serious crap. Alisae never has a case on anyone. And coming from ECHO at this point it's just super-hypocritical
* I don't know why talk of lynching Slick has gone out the window at this point.
* dreal is getting better. Actually trying to contribute rather than make excuses for not contributing. Nevertheless, I'm suddenly struck by a theory I had as I went to bed last night on why Creature is playing the way he is, assuming he is town. Not going to say it out loud but I think I have to re-evaluate my read on Creature. I think he's back in the soft townread category. This is good sequence I think it cleared up my reads on a couple players I was having trouble pinning down.
* Titus sheeping Creature of all players is a little odd IMO
* I think I agree with Titus in #1830. Problem is, it's hard to read players based on how they in turn read dreal. It's really easy to scumread dreal for things that (to me at least) seem like normal dreal things
* #1831 JFC dreal. I start townreading you and you say something like that.
* #1832 Townreading Titus. Astonishing how she can replace in like that and post in such a way that I can immediately get a read on her
* #1833 I feel like I missed something on why Zach objects strongly to a Slick lynch
* #1835 and now Titus's sheeping of Creature is even more baffling
* Okay dreal's play just swings wildly between "scummy-ass garbage" and "legit has a point I think" and as a result I'm completely uncomfortable lynching him D1 this game. He just has a naturally-scummy and abrasive playstyle and I think it's sending peoples' radars completely haywire already.
* #1856 makes me think Zach and I are kindred spirits in this regard. For being confirmed town RB seems awfully preoccupied with throwing his

penis

weight around rather than actually trying to scumhunt
* Posts #1865 and #1867 are good examples of why drealmerz is a really bad lynch for the day. Uzi and HS are players I've been getting soft scum vibes from for a while, but even they are coming up with fair points against drealmerz. He's one of those players where it's easy to find him scummy and equally easy to dodge blame if you were on the wagon and he flips town, simply because he's so naturally scummy it's easy to come up with legitimate reasons to lynch him, motives being genuine or not.
* #1874 Fucking. Kill. This. Shit.
* #1897 yet more examples of why drealmerz is actually a shit lynch, not (necessarily) a scum lynch. He does this a lot. He's been doing this practically the entire game so far!
* Okay #1901 is a good post and seems genuine. Even if it's in response to dreal. With a number of new players dipping into my scumreads HS might be getting bumped up to Murky.
* #1908 wow. Not trying to offend people personally, but the huge amount of lurkers who come out to vote the prevailing wagon for shallow or non-existent reasons is just a cancer on this game.
* I can get behind Zach's reasoning in #1945. His bolded there is pretty fucking spot on IMO
* #1965 Fucking hell and I was just starting to get comfortable with Dunn
* #1966 I fucking hate talk like this. Play your damn wincon.
* #1983 oh please this is absolutely fucking hypocritical and it's disgusting
* #1992 thank you a goodpost by Dunn to make up for the last shit one. Even if one of his four scum mentioned is Zach which is shit.
* #2008 I get it now, Dunn. Bad company.
* #2031 jeremiahjohnsonnod.gif
* Ircher reading Alisae as lynchbait but not dreal is rather fucking baffling

Up to page 83 now.

Spoiler: Reads By Category

Townread

rb
Gin
texcat
Ircher
Zach

Soft Townread

Creature
Dunnstral
GE/Titus
All Alone

Neutral/Murky

Kyouko
Debi
Pine
HS
drealmerz

Soft Scumread

Uzi
Echo

Scumread

Slick
Alisae

[Wraith]

Continuing from page 83. Want to take a break but fuck it let's get this shit over and done with.

Spoiler: Notes

* #2057 this claim is wearing really thin. It has survived rock steady despite countless instances of Alisae clearly being disingenuous. If that's not "proof" Alisae is not lynchbait then Ircher is not going to waver here period. So I'm going to ask

why is Alisae lynchbait and not drealmerz?

I want this question answered.
* Wow I must have skipped over #1758 completely. It's probably the first truly valid point anyone has made against Gin and it was made by...All Alone? The lurker? Am I getting tunnel vision? See, I wonder that, and then I look back at the people on that wagon and I'm like "NOOOOPE"
* Page 83 has another episode of dreal speaking sense. Again he varies wildly between "legit has a point maybe" and "spiteposting" completely naturally.
* #2074 I call it this
* #2084 rubs me the wrong way big time. Why would a post 100+ posts ago be the hammer? THERE WAS EVEN A VOTECOUNT IN BETWEEN THAT POST AND YOURS WTF ARE YOU ONLY NOW CONCERNED ABOUT BEING ON THE DREAL WAGON?!
* #2116 more massive hypocrisy coming from Echo
* #2126 this is total bullshit. I bet Alisae's texcat vote has about as much conviction behind it as all his other ones
* Who the fuck is TRGNT? Oh, it's Gin. Just fucking call him Gin. Also dreal's reads in #2131 are absolute steaming shit but I've come to expect that. He's so wrapped up in attacking the people scumreading him that he's oblivious to things that are actually important.
* #2137 I echo

* #2126 this is total bullshit. I bet Alisae's texcat vote has about as much conviction behind it as all his other ones

fake hammer too, charming. BUT DAT LYNCHBAIT DOE
* WTF is this texcat wagon. WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS TOWN
* #2152 THIS is all Slick has to say after days of lurking?
* I still can't understand why most people seem to be fine giving Alisae a free pass for his garbage and fake crap but are all over Gin's ass. This wagon is Zach and a bunch of scummy-ass sheep, lurkers, or both. EDIT: Oh and I guess All Alone.
* #2208 no fucking comment
* #2218 I'm starting to see why a lot of people are townreading HS
* #2232 is a fair point. Thing is, I was townreading AA for his earlier posts too. I do think this is TvT
* #2254 I don't buy this claim at all.

sigh

I think this is kind of a lock that I've had tunnel vision this whole time. His turn on AA put some cracks in my strong townread of him but this probably shatters it.

SIGH

* #2307 Still playing up the VI label I see. And you're just going to throw shade without refuting or citing specifics? Laaaaaaaaaaaaazy faaaaaaaaaaaaaake scumhunting.

I'm really conflicted. That claim attempt alone is enough to make me want to vote Gin now. But I really, really hate the company on that wagon.

Townread

rb
texcat
Zach
Creature

Soft Townread

GE/Titus
Ircher
Dunnstral
All Alone
HS

Neutral/Murky

Kyouko
Debi
Pine
drealmerz

Soft Scumread

Uzi
Echo

Scumread

Gin
Slick
Alisae

[Wraith]

@mod: Votecount please

[Wraith]

* #2218 I'm starting to see why a lot of people are townreading HS

out of all the things you could townread me over
you choose this
what the fuck lmao, not sure if read fabrication or just ???

I think my biggest problem with you was my tunnel vision re: Gin

But I was putting you in that category because of a few bad vibes I got way back. It's been like several hundred posts since then. Scummier players are bumping you elsewhere in my reads.

That and you're actually one of the few players citing specifics for your reads.

[Wraith]

Continuing from page 72

Spoiler: Notes

* Wow Echo's #1775 is serious crap. Alisae never has a case on anyone. And coming from ECHO at this point it's just super-hypocritical
* I don't know why talk of lynching Slick has gone out the window at this point.
* dreal is getting better. Actually trying to contribute rather than make excuses for not contributing. Nevertheless, I'm suddenly struck by a theory I had as I went to bed last night on why Creature is playing the way he is, assuming he is town. Not going to say it out loud but I think I have to re-evaluate my read on Creature. I think he's back in the soft townread category. This is good sequence I think it cleared up my reads on a couple players I was having trouble pinning down.
* Titus sheeping Creature of all players is a little odd IMO
* I think I agree with Titus in #1830. Problem is, it's hard to read players based on how they in turn read dreal. It's really easy to scumread dreal for things that (to me at least) seem like normal dreal things
* #1831 JFC dreal. I start townreading you and you say something like that.
* #1832 Townreading Titus. Astonishing how she can replace in like that and post in such a way that I can immediately get a read on her
* #1833 I feel like I missed something on why Zach objects strongly to a Slick lynch
* #1835 and now Titus's sheeping of Creature is even more baffling
* Okay dreal's play just swings wildly between "scummy-ass garbage" and "legit has a point I think" and as a result I'm completely uncomfortable lynching him D1 this game. He just has a naturally-scummy and abrasive playstyle and I think it's sending peoples' radars completely haywire already.
* #1856 makes me think Zach and I are kindred spirits in this regard. For being confirmed town RB seems awfully preoccupied with throwing his

penis

weight around rather than actually trying to scumhunt
* Posts #1865 and #1867 are good examples of why drealmerz is a really bad lynch for the day. Uzi and HS are players I've been getting soft scum vibes from for a while, but even they are coming up with fair points against drealmerz. He's one of those players where it's easy to find him scummy and equally easy to dodge blame if you were on the wagon and he flips town, simply because he's so naturally scummy it's easy to come up with legitimate reasons to lynch him, motives being genuine or not.
* #1874 Fucking. Kill. This. Shit.
* #1897 yet more examples of why drealmerz is actually a shit lynch, not (necessarily) a scum lynch. He does this a lot. He's been doing this practically the entire game so far!
* Okay #1901 is a good post and seems genuine. Even if it's in response to dreal. With a number of new players dipping into my scumreads HS might be getting bumped up to Murky.
* #1908 wow. Not trying to offend people personally, but the huge amount of lurkers who come out to vote the prevailing wagon for shallow or non-existent reasons is just a cancer on this game.
* I can get behind Zach's reasoning in #1945. His bolded there is pretty fucking spot on IMO
* #1965 Fucking hell and I was just starting to get comfortable with Dunn
* #1966 I fucking hate talk like this. Play your damn wincon.
* #1983 oh please this is absolutely fucking hypocritical and it's disgusting
* #1992 thank you a goodpost by Dunn to make up for the last shit one. Even if one of his four scum mentioned is Zach which is shit.
* #2008 I get it now, Dunn. Bad company.
* #2031 jeremiahjohnsonnod.gif
* Ircher reading Alisae as lynchbait but not dreal is rather fucking baffling

Up to page 83 now.

Spoiler: Reads By Category

Townread

rb
Gin
texcat
Ircher
Zach

Soft Townread

Creature
Dunnstral
GE/Titus
All Alone

Neutral/Murky

Kyouko
Debi
Pine
HS
drealmerz

Soft Scumread

Uzi
Echo

Scumread

Slick
Alisae

Since Nadroj's game finished --- The difference between drealm and alisae is that alisae feels genuine and the questionable stuff from his iso seem more subconscious.

Drealm is however on purposely playing like Low-Hanging Fruit (he admittted such in fact).

Thats a huge difference.

ALISAE HAS CALLED HIMSELF LYNCHBAIT ON MULTIPLE OCCASIONS SINCE YOU LABELED HIM AS SUCH AND IN FACT HAS EXPRESSED SCUMREADS ON OTHER PLAYERS FOR "PUSHING LYNCHBAIT" (REFERRING TO HIMSELF)

[Wraith]

So we got a VC in #2389 and I'm preparing to vote Gin.

I'm catching up BTW if that wasn't clear already.

[Wraith]

Yeah and it's very obviously fake. AA said it best:

I'm just using my vig shot on you, I dont care if I die claiming a power role, you're a worthy shot.

I'll self hammer at this point but lynch these slots lynched with fire after I'm dead.

Remember, the those 3 pushers of my lynch, also Echo. Let's end Day 1 please.

VOTE: Gin

SELF-HAMMERING IS NOT A TOWN VIG PLAY

SELF-VOTING IS NOT A TOWN VIG PLAY

FAKECLAIM DETECTED, EVERYONE GET YOUR VOTES ON GIN

I also think Zach's case is a decent one when (finally) viewed altogether. And those aren't the only two reasons.

It's tough because the wagon on Alisae is starting to gain steam again and rightfully so. But I'm putting more priority on the terrible, obvious fakeclaim.

Unvote

Vote: Gin

[Wraith]

Slick is an existing candidate.

The Real Gin and Tonic is nit. He's a provable PR claim.

I mean if most of the players agree this is the path we want to take then I'm fine lynching someone else today (I

wonder who

?). Thing this fakeclaim by Gin seems incredibly obvious to me and I don't want to let it slide based on just a couple of people who buy into it.

[Wraith]

Slick is an existing candidate.

The Real Gin and Tonic is nit. He's a provable PR claim.

I mean if most of the players agree this is the path we want to take then I'm fine lynching someone else today (I

wonder who

?). Thing this fakeclaim by Gin seems incredibly obvious to me and I don't want to let it slide based on just a couple of people who buy into it.

Then the evidence will fail to come in day 2. If there's no additional corpse, we get information about the roles scum have. Plus, we force scum to block the vig.

If Gin is scum, then, we still have the data from the push and no extra kill will appear since scum vigs are blacklisted in normals.

Gin's role is not provable. You have to assume that this is single-ball, that there is no SK, that there isn't a vig that isn't counter-claiming, that there isn't a vig that isn't a x-shot. No matter how many kills there are overnight, it won't prove Gin's role.

IIRC it is because Vigs in Normal games must have a kill flavor distinguishable from other factions.

[Wraith]

But at the same time it would be easy for Gin to claim "Roleblocked!" when his kill inevitably fails to go through.

With that in mind I think we lynch scum here and now. Letting him live another day just gives him a free pass for a claim that will never be definitively settled.

[Wraith]

But at the same time it would be easy for Gin to claim "Roleblocked!" when his kill inevitably fails to go through.

With that in mind I think we lynch scum here and now. Letting him live another day just gives him a free pass for a claim that will never be definitively settled.

Then we lynch him day 2, after he claims who he tried to shoot. We'll have his green flip with information about scum.

Of course, Gin is onviously town so...

Why won't you lynch SD?

Gin is obviously town to you. Gin is obviously scum to me.

And I've already expressed a ready willingness to lynch SD today, in case you missed it. I just prioritize Gin and Alisae more highly at the moment.

[Wraith]

Slick is an existing candidate.

The Real Gin and Tonic is nit. He's a provable PR claim.

I mean if most of the players agree this is the path we want to take then I'm fine lynching someone else today (I

wonder who

?). Thing this fakeclaim by Gin seems incredibly obvious to me and I don't want to let it slide based on just a couple of people who buy into it.

Then the evidence will fail to come in day 2. If there's no additional corpse, we get information about the roles scum have. Plus, we force scum to block the vig.

If Gin is scum, then, we still have the data from the push and no extra kill will appear since scum vigs are blacklisted in normals.

Gin's role is not provable. You have to assume that this is single-ball, that there is no SK, that there isn't a vig that isn't counter-claiming, that there isn't a vig that isn't a x-shot. No matter how many kills there are overnight, it won't prove Gin's role.

IIRC it is because Vigs in Normal games must have a kill flavor distinguishable from other factions.

no, there CANNOT be separate kill flavors.
/derp

Past Me: No way did I misread that that egregiously.

>checks

OH FOR FUCK'S SAKE

Now there's zero reason to let Gin slide here IMO.

[Wraith]

Continuing from page 72

Spoiler: Notes

* Wow Echo's #1775 is serious crap. Alisae never has a case on anyone. And coming from ECHO at this point it's just super-hypocritical
* I don't know why talk of lynching Slick has gone out the window at this point.
* dreal is getting better. Actually trying to contribute rather than make excuses for not contributing. Nevertheless, I'm suddenly struck by a theory I had as I went to bed last night on why Creature is playing the way he is, assuming he is town. Not going to say it out loud but I think I have to re-evaluate my read on Creature. I think he's back in the soft townread category. This is good sequence I think it cleared up my reads on a couple players I was having trouble pinning down.
* Titus sheeping Creature of all players is a little odd IMO
* I think I agree with Titus in #1830. Problem is, it's hard to read players based on how they in turn read dreal. It's really easy to scumread dreal for things that (to me at least) seem like normal dreal things
* #1831 JFC dreal. I start townreading you and you say something like that.
* #1832 Townreading Titus. Astonishing how she can replace in like that and post in such a way that I can immediately get a read on her
* #1833 I feel like I missed something on why Zach objects strongly to a Slick lynch
* #1835 and now Titus's sheeping of Creature is even more baffling
* Okay dreal's play just swings wildly between "scummy-ass garbage" and "legit has a point I think" and as a result I'm completely uncomfortable lynching him D1 this game. He just has a naturally-scummy and abrasive playstyle and I think it's sending peoples' radars completely haywire already.
* #1856 makes me think Zach and I are kindred spirits in this regard. For being confirmed town RB seems awfully preoccupied with throwing his

penis

weight around rather than actually trying to scumhunt
* Posts #1865 and #1867 are good examples of why drealmerz is a really bad lynch for the day. Uzi and HS are players I've been getting soft scum vibes from for a while, but even they are coming up with fair points against drealmerz. He's one of those players where it's easy to find him scummy and equally easy to dodge blame if you were on the wagon and he flips town, simply because he's so naturally scummy it's easy to come up with legitimate reasons to lynch him, motives being genuine or not.
* #1874 Fucking. Kill. This. Shit.
* #1897 yet more examples of why drealmerz is actually a shit lynch, not (necessarily) a scum lynch. He does this a lot. He's been doing this practically the entire game so far!
* Okay #1901 is a good post and seems genuine. Even if it's in response to dreal. With a number of new players dipping into my scumreads HS might be getting bumped up to Murky.
* #1908 wow. Not trying to offend people personally, but the huge amount of lurkers who come out to vote the prevailing wagon for shallow or non-existent reasons is just a cancer on this game.
* I can get behind Zach's reasoning in #1945. His bolded there is pretty fucking spot on IMO
* #1965 Fucking hell and I was just starting to get comfortable with Dunn
* #1966 I fucking hate talk like this. Play your damn wincon.
* #1983 oh please this is absolutely fucking hypocritical and it's disgusting
* #1992 thank you a goodpost by Dunn to make up for the last shit one. Even if one of his four scum mentioned is Zach which is shit.
* #2008 I get it now, Dunn. Bad company.
* #2031 jeremiahjohnsonnod.gif
* Ircher reading Alisae as lynchbait but not dreal is rather fucking baffling

Up to page 83 now.

Spoiler: Reads By Category

Townread

rb
Gin
texcat
Ircher
Zach

Soft Townread

Creature
Dunnstral
GE/Titus
All Alone

Neutral/Murky

Kyouko
Debi
Pine
HS
drealmerz

Soft Scumread

Uzi
Echo

Scumread

Slick
Alisae

Since Nadroj's game finished --- The difference between drealm and alisae is that alisae feels genuine and the questionable stuff from his iso seem more subconscious.

Drealm is however on purposely playing like Low-Hanging Fruit (he admittted such in fact).

Thats a huge difference.

ALISAE HAS CALLED HIMSELF LYNCHBAIT ON MULTIPLE OCCASIONS SINCE YOU LABELED HIM AS SUCH AND IN FACT HAS EXPRESSED SCUMREADS ON OTHER PLAYERS FOR "PUSHING LYNCHBAIT" (REFERRING TO HIMSELF)

Self-aware doesn't change the genuine feel of the posts. Again, Alisae feels like he is playing genuine whereas Dreal is just obfuscating, etc. on purpose to avoid getting metaread and to "trap" players into lynching him implying he is much more skilled than he trues to imitate.

I really don't know where you get the vibe that Alisae is playing genuinely when he says "I really, really want a [Texcat] lynch done" and then hops off and on at a whim.

You're probably not wrong about dreal though but that's just dreal IMO

[Wraith]

Like I legit think you are trying to pocket rb.

I must not understand what "pocket" means. Or one of us doesn't??

I thought it was like when a mobster has the police sergeant in his pocket, meaning the police sergeant will do what the mobster tells him to. But Pine isn't trying to tell Rb what to do, it looks exactly the opposite to me. Pine is asking Rb what to do. I hate it when people throw around jargon that I don't understand.

And it bothers me that Alisae threw in the word "legit" here. It's as if she's admitting that her other posts are not what she legitimately thinks.

VOTE: Alisae

I still think that Alisae admitted that she had been posting not what she legitimately thought. She says here that she legitimately thinks. That implies to me that her other posts were not what she legitimately thinks. I think that's a scum tell.

[and one of us still doesn't understand "pocket"]

IIRC you were on the right track with your initial insight. It essentially means a scum player who has a town PR "in their pocket" - a town player with power and influence who won't doubt their alignment and will vouch for them if pressed.

At least, that's from what I've personally gathered.

[Wraith]

Wraith, I'm shooting Echo. Are you okay with that?

I think you're scum and not the Vig, so...

[Wraith]

Are you saying I'm mafia?

In my opinion, yes

[Wraith]

You are saying I am aligned with the mafia, which is part of a team who has other members with the same win coin?

You asked about you, not your teammates

Who your teammates decide to shoot after they're dead is their decision

[Wraith]

You are saying I am aligned with the mafia, which is part of a team who has other members with the same win coin?

You asked about you, not your teammates

Who your teammates decide to shoot after they're dead is their decision

*You're dead

[Wraith]

Gin is either serial killer or vig. He's not mafia.

I don't care if he's serial killer right now if he just shoots lurkers ands cummers. Lynch someone else

See I have the opposite problem here. I'm wondering where this speculation that he can't be scum and MUST be SK if he isn't the Vig is coming from.

[Wraith]

scum don't claim vig. We're not lynching him today, we're seeing what happens. That's all I have to say.

Do claimed Vigs also threaten to use their shot on someone before begging everyone to vote them and then self-voting?

[Wraith]

AM I GOING COMPLETELY MAD?!

So the claimed Vig threatens to use his shot on HS the following night, and then actively pushes and votes for his own lynch? And then we're

telegraphing his Vig shot in advance?

In the theoretical scenario where Gin is telling the truth and he is the Vig, and he believes he is shooting scum in Echo, why should we possibly believe scum will just allow this to happen? If we're speculating Vigs and SKs and god-knows-whatever, is it so much of a stretch to speculate that the scum have a Roleblocker handy?

How is this

POSSIBLY

pro-town activity?

[Wraith]

Holy shit Grey was scum all along?

I need to stop and reevaluate right now before I blindly run myself off a cliff.

[Wraith]

Took a look at Grey/texcat's ISOs. One big thing I can take away from it is that my townread on Creature is cemented and I'm reversing on Alisae. Grey in particular did a lot to try to undermine those two players (as well as rb) early on.

Deftown

rb
Creature
Titus

Likely Town

Alisae
HS
Dunnstral

Neutral/Murky

Zach
Ircher
AA
Kyouko
Debi
drealmerz

Scumreads

Uzi
Echo
Pine
Slick

[Wraith]

Vote: Pine

Was originally going to vote Slick here since he's lurking harder than any other player and offers empty opinions and crap votes when he does post. But just a glance at Pine's votes alone and they reek like dead fish.

[Wraith]

Explain what is behind that push



Wraith explain your scumreads besides Slick and why you are confident enough in Titus and Creature to put them with the IC

Creature because Grey was after his ass early and because I now agree with his pursuit of lurkers D1. The Gin fakeclaim drama has almost certainly let scum cruise under the radar. Also I just get a general vibe from his play that he's genuinely trying to draw reactions with his posts and votes, unlike Alisae or Ircher who declare their intentions either explicitly or with the subtlety of a foghorn.

Titus because her defense of Gin felt very genuine, and she was ultimately vindicated by the flip as well even if she was wrong about the claim. Also consistent goodposting but that's just IMO. I did townread Grey/texcat for that same reason so my instincts in that regard aren't totally reliable. But in Titus's case the Gin defense + flip helps.

[Wraith]

Jesus I can't even have football night without 10 pages accruing.

Spoiler: Misc Posts

everything GIN said should be disregarded

everything everyone said about GIN should be disregarded

No. No no no. He might have lied about his claim but he flipped town, meaning his reads at least we can trust to have been truthful. The problem is because the fakeclaim was so blindingly obvious that it will be hard to sift scum from town on the wagon.

Also you need to STOP FLAMING PEOPLE dreal. It's seriously as if you are trying to get yourself lynched at this point.

I feel like this wagon is ignoring the info Gin's fakeclaim gave us. Working on a wallpost about the votes onto Gin's wagon atm.

He proposed shooting amongst 6 players and 5 of those players ended up voting him, making up half of his lynch wagon. We know texcat was scum and was within Gin's sights. We should be examining the others' reasons for voting Gin to see if we can uncover a blue mafia member there, and looking at how others reacted to tex being a target

You're being short-sighted, deliberately or otherwise.

90% of the people who Gin wanted to shoot were scumreading him before.

I feel like this logic is totally backwards. Shouldn't it be the people who were scumreading him before who need the

most

scrutiny? I also find it suspicious now that the person who led the charge against Gin is now telling everyone that analyzing the motives of the people who wagoned Gin isn't important.

tf there are 9 scum, are there two scumteams of 4 members plus one SK?

???

I'm getting some growing suspicions of Kyouko based on two posts that, ironically, Dunn and Echo have made.

Spoiler: Kyouko

Wraith might get shot by blue mafia tonight anyways

Why would they?
I'll overlook you calling the unknown scum faction blue

Why is Kyouko assuming the other scum faction is blue? Why is Kyouko assuming I am the target of the "Blue" Scumteam? He's apparently confident enough to state this multiple times.

I feel like this wagon is ignoring the info Gin's fakeclaim gave us. Working on a wallpost about the votes onto Gin's wagon atm.

He proposed shooting amongst 6 players and 5 of those players ended up voting him, making up half of his lynch wagon. We know texcat was scum and was within Gin's sights. We should be examining the others' reasons for voting Gin to see if we can uncover a blue mafia member there, and looking at how others reacted to tex being a target

The intention of my post was to express that I think the Wraith wagon is a bad choice and we should reexamine Gin's wagon and fakeclaim to see if anything stands out as scummy. Ideally we look for a pool of blue mafia suspects today and lynch from in there in hopes that if we miss, red mafia will still shoot at our pool in hopes of hitting blue. We can look for red suspects too to try to direct blue's shots at red but it would be best to try to lynch blue today imo

why are you so worried on killing blue, why don't we just

kill fucking mafia

And here Kyouko seems awfully confident the Red Scumteam will comply with the town's wishes. There's no reason to try to scumhunt for a specific scumteam. I don't know how anyone thinks you can scumhunt for a specific scumteam, especially when there are still 17 players in this game. We don't even know how many total scum there are.

Spoiler: More Misc

Yeah. Echo is a lynch that needs to happen.
VOTE: EchoVision
Their vote on Gin was scummy as fuck.

This I still agree with.

As others have said the Echo meta doesn't really apply. PRs with information play radically different from non-PRs. That's what feels more like the case here - that Echo isn't a PR.

--------

everything GIN said should be disregarded

everything everyone said about GIN should be disregarded

I was pretty disappointed by Gin's play in that it was way sloppy for town, and just generally added disinformation. Thus, I agree with Drealmerz7 in that we should avoid considering too much of what Gin said. Ultimately, he had no significant insight due to role, and he demonstrated a willingness to lie and add disinformation to day one.

This fucking shit. I'm highlighting this post in particular here because this all Slick says after continuing to lurk hardcore, and then he disappears again. Plus it's, IMO actively anti-town advice.

In reply to a few other questions/comments from before:

Yes it's been a while since I've played a game. My style here is different from the past; I'm trying to apply some lessons from playing the game since last visiting this forum.

Regarding reads, I'll try and contribute more as they come, but I really do find that day two is when things make sense for me. Day one seems to be a lot of big egos duking it out while scum hunting. That's cool, but I'm just not going to end up being one of big egos. That said, Drealmerz7's first post rubbed me the wrong way with his atypical eagerness, but I've appreciated his further comments since then so I am going to change my vote to reflect this tentatively. Alisae seems to be pretty about shooting first and then not worrying about asking questions, but that can be a strategy. However, I'm ultimately swayed by Zachstralkita's argument and position regarding TheRealGin-N-Tonic so I will support it.

VOTE: TheRealGin-N-Tonic

I know this might not be a lot to offer while there is a wagon gathering for me, but that's what I've got. If I'm knocked out during Day 1, I accept that as a part of establishing culture and trimming incompatible players during the early game, even if they are townies.

Remember that THIS is what amounted to Slick's reasoning for hopping on the Gin wagon. "I don't like scumhunting D1 because it's a lot of big egos throwing their weight around. So I'm going to sheep Zach and hop on the Gin wagon. I'll be back D2 k bye." And he's made a grand total of one post so far D2. So much for that promise so far.

Unvote

Vote: Slick

---------

Spoiler: Dunn Claim

Alright lads, I figure this is a good a time as any to mention my own investigate guilty on

Echovision

... let's lynch

Echovision

and laugh at rb

At first I was all for jumping on this, because I townread Dunn and have been getting PR vibes from his play all game. But going through the catch-up I started second-guessing myself. If Dunn had Echo dead-to-rights then why were his primary targets going into this day myself and Slick? He barely mentioned Echo at all today until only a couple or so pages ago. If Dunn was trying to get Echo lynched without outing himself as a Cop, then I'd expect him to be explicitly pushing Echo as his top scumread for the reasons he's stated in the past ASAP, or at least to be subtly pushing forward Echo as an alternative wagon to the frontrunners. So while I'm not ruling Dunn's claim out as an outright lie like I did Gin's, I'm remaining skeptical for now and not jumping on the Echo wagon.

I'll cite some of his earlier posts pre-claim to demonstrate where my skepticism is coming from.

Alright let's get slick or wraith

VOTE: Wraith

I'd be willing to lynch echo

This one is the most he pushes Echo before Echo reappears in the thread.

What's the right path?

That's what I'm figuring out. Prob lynch wraith vig rb and investigate whoever; and lynch echo tomorrow

Wait no, vig alisae if anything

While I see here he's lining up Echo for D3, I assumed pre-claim that this was because he just in general strongly-scumreads Echo. I again wonder, if you have a scumbag dead-to-rights, why delay in lynching them? Why gamble on some other scumread you don't have a result on and risk the chance you might be killed N2 before revealing your result on Echo?

EDIT:

I've reached these posts

VOTE: slickdilinger

Dunn, help me understand what you're doing right now.

being dumb apparently if echo is town

So it looks like my skepticism was correct. I'm going to take it that Dunn was trying to gambit and get a reaction from Echo.

Spoiler: Even More Misc

We're nowhere near LyLo, I'll gladly trade 1 for 1 if Dunn turns out to be lying

I'm scumreading Kyouko now. If Dunn is scum and lying about being a Cop, then that would easily be confirmed and Dunn would get lynched D3. That's a pretty self-defeating strategy IMO, since I haven't had any hints that Echo might be a PR, which would be the only reason I can think Scum!Dunn would gambit like this.

Hold. Dunn if you had a guilty on Echo, why didn't you vote for him as soon as Day 2 started? What was the Wraith and Zach stuff about?

I think Kyouko falling can bump you up out of my scumreads at this point.

There's nothing to overlook, blue is a convenient way to refer to the opposite of red. Wraith would get shot because Blue is looking for Tex's partners

@Echo - I think it's optimal to keep the scum factions as evenly matched as possible to keep them scared of each other. If red gets lynched today there will be 0-1 red left and 2-3 blue left as we enter the night phase. I want blue aiming at red and red aiming at blue, I don't want either of them aiming at town/PRs.

The problem with your strategy here is that in multiball, the scumteams

generally

aren't looking to NK the other scumteam. Scum need to lynch someone not on their team during the day, and a lynch on the other scumteam tends to be an easier sell than a lynch on town. NKing the other scumteam limits scum's ability to lynch the other scum, so scum generally try to avoid doing so.

I think Kyouko's assumed scum strategy here is a towntell, since if he was scum he'd presumably have figured out the scum NK strategy last night. This is his first multiball game, and it's believable that the texcat kill and flip would give townKyouko reason to think that scumteams want to NK each other.

I don't like this post. Now I haven't actually played in a multiball game in years, but I thought that the scum's ideal strategy there would be to lynch/kill the rival team as fast as possible, since the rival team is much more of a threat due to

having their own nightkill

. Wouldn't a potential nightkill aimed at them be MUCH more of a threat than a lynch that the scum can contribute to?

Sorry for the wallpost again, I tried to format it this time.

[Wraith]

@dream, echo, everybody else buying into the dunn claim
maybe you guys should actually read the thread lmao
wraith's post has spoiler tags yknow, try opening them
i know i gave him a question mark earlier, but that was just me trying to figure out where he was going with it

btw wraith we agree on a lot, did you bother reading my post?
i would be worried you're buddying up to me but every time i worry that i'm wrong and the other person was just making the same logical leaps i was (RE: copper, smith, umlaut)
then again the way you didn't comment on my post at all looked legit

I skimmed it mostly because I saw you still have major tunnel vision on dreal and myself.

[Wraith]

because you're both pretty obvscum? i'm not tunneled, i dug into slick for doing fuck all and am considering jumping on that wagon and weighed in on the echo situation. you skimmed it because you think i'm tunneled, but that skim would be enough to show that i'm clearly not because of how i'm interacting with others. give it another look, maybe?

i'm glad you're around, how do you justify slipping multiball at the start?

119
Alright I hope I'm not the only one who saw this. Wraith intends to imply that Debi is scum, because they have a foreknowledge of the setup (how many scum there are), and then pushes that it's multiball. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if it's multiball, surely scum aren't informed how many other teams there are or how many scum are on those teams, so how would Debi have that foreknowledge? I would waive this as Wraith just making a mistake if he didn't pull the multiball assumption out of his ass-- That implies to me that -he- knows it's multiball. 'Foreknowledge of the setup'.
Debi wasn't even being that serious with the 9/10 split, she said the following:

So just for the sake of it, lets say we had 10 towns in this game, and 9 scum, it is unlikely but go with it.

And beyond that never even implied that they believed there was multiball. Really suss, strongest scumread as of this post.

^what i'm referring to

i'm actually pretty unsure on your slot because 119 is damning as fuck but everything else is pretty damn town so i'm glad you're around so i can sort you

Because I badly misread Debi's hypothetical and thought

she

was speculating multiball.

But yeah it's tunneling if you're focused on one post from 100 pages ago as the sole reason I'm scum. You really haven't stated any other reason to scumread me.

[Wraith]

perhaps because i don't have any other reason to scumread you
overall i think your walls are good i just wish you focused less on being so broad tbh
621 checks out, so your defense is consistent, but i still think it's flawed. i don't buy that you legitimately misread debi's comment as multiball spec, and i don't know if you do either.

what do you have to say about pushing rb for a scumslip based on multiball, and then saying that you doubt its multiball?

furthermore, if you think 19p is too little for multiball, why did you buy into it so easily when debi was speccing it, especially considering she never actually directly mentioned multiball? i think if you legitimately doubted multiball due to playercount, reading debi's post wouldn't have pinged you at all. you jumping onto it reads like you knowing it's multiball and knowing debi might be slipping that.

Because it sounded pretty plausible coming from my top townread at the time.

Also I can't decide if RB is town or scum.

On one hand he could be trying to derail the Wraith wagon by attacking two of the people that are on it.
On the other hand, would scum really do a push so bad on both me an Gin?

this bad push is going to have you both lynched on days 1 and 2 respectively

and if you wanna just tell me your other scumbuddy now that's fine too

Clarify this for me rb, are you saying there are only three scum? In a 19p game?

Oh yeah, that was Grey. Who flipped scum. And who also tried to push my early post re: Debi as a scumslip.

I agree. Assuming 9 scum right off the bat implies foreknowledge of the setup

Welcome to my scum pile.

You were sheeping him a lot early on, but I was taking a lot of what he said as gospel too, so for the moment I'm under the impression that you just got fooled too. Plus I don't think scum players outright buddy each other.

But you're clearly suffering from some cognitive dissonance considering you're pushing me while simultaneously thinking my later posts were town, and that's somewhat suspicious. That said, considering RB and Creature both trust you and they're my top townreads now, I just think you're barking up the wrong tree.

[Wraith]

Players suggesting lynching me for saying blue are more likely to be scum imo

I'm not going to qualify "the other" scumteam or the "not red" scumteam every time I want to talk about players that are scum but not on Red Mafia team, it's clunky and inconvenient. There's also a game in the archives that uses red mafia and blue mafia as the factions that I saw when I was looking at the multiball setups.

Personally I think it's a lot more suspicious that you're insisting we scumhunt specifically for one scumteam today.

[Wraith]

Mod missed my vote change. Guess I really need to get used to using Vote tags.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Slick

I'm pretty damn confident in this one since he decided to disappear right after Alisae fake Dayvigged him. Scum who thought he was dead.

[Wraith]

Not that I have a problem with a Kyouko wagon but we were sitting at L-1 there for a whole day until Alisae unvoted. Slick still hasn't said anything since the fake Desperado shot. Did I miss a real reason for this lynch potentially derailing?

[Wraith]

Not that I have a problem with a Kyouko wagon but we were sitting at L-1 there for a whole day until Alisae unvoted. Slick still hasn't said anything since the fake Desperado shot. Did I miss a real reason for this lynch potentially derailing?

incompetent playerlist

Okay I get that you might be frustrated with the game, but you seriously need to stop flaming people in every post you make. You're eventually going to hit a point where the majority of players will be willing to just policy lynch you no matter what they think of your alignment.

[Wraith]

I dunno what I'm reading in Slick's tone that you guys aren't. Scum would try to be more self preserving...

Personally I think the opposite.

[Wraith]

I dunno what I'm reading in Slick's tone that you guys aren't. Scum would try to be more self preserving...

Personally I think the opposite.

Maybe elaborate on this lmfao

Actually strike that.

Thinking about it more it's not really a tell at all, because WIFOM. Some Town players will fight tooth and nail to prevent a mislynch. Other Town players will

encourage

their own lynch in hopes of incriminating players they think are scum. And still more might just not care. Scum players could gambit on acting non-chalant. Others are really against proving their alignment.

It's all just WIFOM.

[Wraith]

This game became so lethargic I'm starting to forget some of my reads. Probably should have posted this earlier.

I think Echo is town for the following posts:

Spoiler: Echo Townread

I feel like this wagon is ignoring the info Gin's fakeclaim gave us. Working on a wallpost about the votes onto Gin's wagon atm.

He proposed shooting amongst 6 players and 5 of those players ended up voting him, making up half of his lynch wagon. We know texcat was scum and was within Gin's sights. We should be examining the others' reasons for voting Gin to see if we can uncover a blue mafia member there, and looking at how others reacted to tex being a target

The intention of my post was to express that I think the Wraith wagon is a bad choice and we should reexamine Gin's wagon and fakeclaim to see if anything stands out as scummy. Ideally we look for a pool of blue mafia suspects today and lynch from in there in hopes that if we miss, red mafia will still shoot at our pool in hopes of hitting blue. We can look for red suspects too to try to direct blue's shots at red but it would be best to try to lynch blue today imo

why are you so worried on killing blue, why don't we just

kill fucking mafia

Also nice OMGUS

Yeah. Echo is a lynch that needs to happen.
VOTE: EchoVision
Their vote on Gin was scummy as fuck.

There were 9 other people on the gin wagon with me, why are you saying that my vote in particular was scummy?

Yours and Texcat's votes were scummy off the top of my head. Texcat legit hammered the fakeclaim vig and you hopped onto the fakeclaim vig and didn't even consider his claim.

that's cause i knew his claim was straight bullshit. weren't you on his wagon for a while too??

How'd you know it was bullshit though?

I didn't say anything but stayed on the wagon to see what happened, but what did you see?

if I remember correctly, the way he claimed vig was by saying these are the people I will shoot. even if you are a real vig, you don't do that. that's just straight stupid. it just seemed so fake and made up that unless he was a deceptive God it was bullshit

???

Vig's shoot people, that's not the same at all

it's really nothing to do with the shooting part. think of it this way: if you claim cop on d2, you have your n1 results to back you up. if you claim vig, the only thing you have to prove you as vig is the kill that you did, but anybody can claim that they killed them and fabricate a reason behind it. the results of a vig are visible to everyone when the day starts saying who they killed. it's just too easy to claim and get away with...

uh, it's the opposite, anybody can claim an investigative result. In order to claim a kill it has to have happened in the first place. If somebody else is a vig they just shoot the fake claimer... why do people think fake claiming vig is a thing? It's not

I guess you're right, anybody can claim a fake investigative result. cause you just did! And you're kind of counter claiming yourself there. you're asking me how I knew his vig claim was bullshit, and you're saying that fake claiming vig isn't a thing. good job dude.

tl;dr I think Echo is town because he reacted well to Dunn's fake Cop result.

I also think Dunn is town. It would be really stupid for scum to fake the result like that. Plus I get a town vibe from some of his earlier posts as well. So Dunn vs Echo is TvT IMO.

I still don't know why this Slick wagon is derailing. If there's a Vig and he doesn't end up lynched, I nominate him for a shot tonight since he's clearly decided to not be helpful or participate in any way.

Finally if the alternative wagon to Slick is Kyouko I'm up for that. I still hate the following posts by him:

Spoiler: Kyouko Scumread

I feel like this wagon is ignoring the info Gin's fakeclaim gave us. Working on a wallpost about the votes onto Gin's wagon atm.

He proposed shooting amongst 6 players and 5 of those players ended up voting him, making up half of his lynch wagon. We know texcat was scum and was within Gin's sights. We should be examining the others' reasons for voting Gin to see if we can uncover a blue mafia member there, and looking at how others reacted to tex being a target

So, out of All Alone, Zach, Slick, Echo, Debi or Texcat please tell me who'd you like me to shoot and who you think the shot would be most wasted on.

I'll take the best case I find and we'll work from there day 2 given the flips we get.

P.S. You won't convince me to shoot outside this pool of players.

Votecount 1.Final

Alisae (1)

Pine ,

TheRealGin-N-Tonic (10)

All Alone , Zachstralkita , SlickDilinger , Human Sequencer , ssbm_Kyouko , rb , Wraith , drealmerz7 , EchoVision , texcat LYNCH! ,

drealmerz7 (1)

Debi ,

Ircher (1)

Lil Uzi Vert ,

SlickDilinger (2)

Titus , Creature ,

EchoVision (3)

Dunnstral , Alisae , TheRealGin-N-Tonic ,

No lynch (1)

Ircher ,

Day one deadline is Sunday January 15, 4 PM PST. (expired on 2017-01-15 17:00:00)

With 19 alive it takes 10 to lynch!

[/size]

Gin I've said this multiple times, Texcat.
>They are my strongest scumread.
>Grey came off to me as not playing his towngame.
>They think they're lynchbait when they aren't
>Their reasoning for voting me is very weak.

Alisae isn't Red for this post imo, could still be Blue but I'm leaning more towards town on him. There was also a point when I called some people out for not putting their votes on "useful wagons" when we had 2 large competing wagons and 2 smaller competing wagons between Alisae and Texcat:

Votecount 1.14

Alisae (2)

Wraith , texcat ,

TheRealGin-N-Tonic (6)

All Alone , Zachstralkita , SlickDilinger , Lil Uzi Vert , drealmerz7 , EchoVision ,

drealmerz7 (7)

rb , Human Sequencer , ssbm_Kyouko , Ircher , Creature , TheRealGin-N-Tonic , Debi ,

texcat (2)

Alisae , Dunnstral ,

Not Voting (2)

Titus , Pine ,

Day one deadline is Sunday January 15, 4 PM PST. (expired on 2017-01-15 17:00:00)

With 19 alive it takes 10 to lynch!

[/size]

All Alone, Zach, HS, Kyouko, rb, Wraith, drealmerz all either SRed Gin or didn't believe his claim I think. That leaves Slick and Echo. Those are my top suspects for Blue mafia based on that reread, if there was a Blue Mafia in Gin's vigpool. I'd rather try to get Red to shoot at them than mislynch a lurker, but I'd go Slick's way today. Not Echo today I don't think. I didn't find anything conclusive in there but I feel like my reads are in a better place now than they were before I went back to read

I may have misunderstood but it seemed to me like HS was saying Wraith if multiball because he thought Gin was scum? Not sure, will see what HS has to say about the multiball flip.

I feel like this wagon is ignoring the info Gin's fakeclaim gave us. Working on a wallpost about the votes onto Gin's wagon atm.

He proposed shooting amongst 6 players and 5 of those players ended up voting him, making up half of his lynch wagon. We know texcat was scum and was within Gin's sights. We should be examining the others' reasons for voting Gin to see if we can uncover a blue mafia member there, and looking at how others reacted to tex being a target

The intention of my post was to express that I think the Wraith wagon is a bad choice and we should reexamine Gin's wagon and fakeclaim to see if anything stands out as scummy. Ideally we look for a pool of blue mafia suspects today and lynch from in there in hopes that if we miss, red mafia will still shoot at our pool in hopes of hitting blue. We can look for red suspects too to try to direct blue's shots at red but it would be best to try to lynch blue today imo

If Wraith is mafia he's probably red, and blue will shoot him tonight, so no need to lynch him right away

laughed at "vig rb"

Maybe swap the days on Echo/Wraith because Wraith might get shot by blue mafia tonight anyways

There's nothing to overlook, blue is a convenient way to refer to the opposite of red. Wraith would get shot because Blue is looking for Tex's partners

@Echo - I think it's optimal to keep the scum factions as evenly matched as possible to keep them scared of each other. If red gets lynched today there will be 0-1 red left and 2-3 blue left as we enter the night phase. I want blue aiming at red and red aiming at blue, I don't want either of them aiming at town/PRs.
What makes you think I'm worried about what happened? I just explained why it's unlikely that there is a vig because Dunn and I were talking about the plausibility of Gin's claim and how Gin could have possibly known if there was a vig or not.

Echo - Do you think Dunn and I are red or blue?

tl;dr His major fixation on finding "Blue" Scum and strange confidence that one scumteam will shoot me tonight makes me think he's Red Scum looking to lynch someone from the rival team.

In fact, that's plenty more justification to vote him than Slick at this point, IMO.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Kyouko

[Wraith]

Again on Kyouko, Echo actually said it best:

I feel like this wagon is ignoring the info Gin's fakeclaim gave us. Working on a wallpost about the votes onto Gin's wagon atm.

He proposed shooting amongst 6 players and 5 of those players ended up voting him, making up half of his lynch wagon. We know texcat was scum and was within Gin's sights. We should be examining the others' reasons for voting Gin to see if we can uncover a blue mafia member there, and looking at how others reacted to tex being a target

The intention of my post was to express that I think the Wraith wagon is a bad choice and we should reexamine Gin's wagon and fakeclaim to see if anything stands out as scummy. Ideally we look for a pool of blue mafia suspects today and lynch from in there in hopes that if we miss, red mafia will still shoot at our pool in hopes of hitting blue. We can look for red suspects too to try to direct blue's shots at red but it would be best to try to lynch blue today imo

why are you so worried on killing blue, why don't we just

kill fucking mafia

And combine that with Kyouko being all for an Echo lynch today that just cements by read of both.

[Wraith]

I still don't know why this Slick wagon is derailing. If there's a Vig and he doesn't end up lynched, I nominate him for a shot tonight since he's clearly decided to not be helpful or participate in any way.

What makes you think there's a Vig in multiball after a night with only one kill?

I said "if"

[Wraith]

Wraith most of the posts you quoted actually make me townread kyouko lmao
Especially shit like this

I feel like this wagon is ignoring the info Gin's fakeclaim gave us. Working on a wallpost about the votes onto Gin's wagon atm.

He proposed shooting amongst 6 players and 5 of those players ended up voting him, making up half of his lynch wagon. We know texcat was scum and was within Gin's sights. We should be examining the others' reasons for voting Gin to see if we can uncover a blue mafia member there, and looking at how others reacted to tex being a target

To each their own

[Wraith]

I could vote Wraith over EchoVision.

(they're obviously scumpartners)

Get in line. Quite a few players have expressed a willingness to lynch me, yet shockingly no wagon has materialized since early D1.

All bark and no bite I guess. Or fake scumreads.

[Wraith]

VOTE: Wraith

This is a better wagon.

Titus, let's deal. If I'm wrong I will vote SlickDilinger with you. If I'm right, nothing besides ego points.

This is scum and I need your vote to lynch it. I am superconfident in you being town.

It's funny how you haven't elaborated why I'm scum outside of "This is scum"

[Wraith]

As this would now be the fourth prod, Debi is being force-replaced for inactivity.

Sad that slick is still in game with this activity level, people are getting cold feet but it doesn't make sense for it to be bussers getting cold feet.

Anyways, sick of people pushing me over deciding the other team is blue, part of the reason I'm so confident saying blue over a d over again is to bait scum pushing a fake scumflip

VOTE: wraith
Provide real reasons for voting me

Oh did you not look at the Spoiler tag?

Do I seriously waste my time when I try to format my posts so they're easy to follow?

[Wraith]

Your loss then.

Also of note is that Kyouko has expressed several times that he's thought I'm RedScum but is only now willing to put his money where his mouth is. I

wonder

why?

[Wraith]

Just read it, it's a quote dump, the entire analysis is in the tl;dr so yeah still waiting for a legitimate reason to scumread me

You're specifically scumhunting for one scum faction.

You can't possibly rely on knowing who is specifically what scum faction based on analyzing general play without being part of one yourself. You're looking for the rival scumteam and not your own, especially since you just lost a teammate last night.

That's more than enough reason and you're just spouting a poor attempt to discredit me.

[Wraith]

Why can't I know who's red and who's blue from a town perspective? If someone is acting scummy but is not associated with texcat they're blue. If they are associated, they're red. Wraith and Zach if I flip

Considering texcat had like ~35 total posts I don't know how you can assume someone is "associated with texcat" based off such a small sample size.

And it's also funny that you think I'm voting you because you assumed the other scumteam is Blue. While I've mentioned before it was an eyebrow-raiser it's not the reason I'm voting you, and I never stated as such in the post where I changed my vote to you.

Oh and something that has only just now struck is that you're fixated on looking for someone from the other scumteam today when it's the RedScum who have suffered a loss. If you're going to look for a specific scumteam as town, why

wouldn't

it be the team that has already been weakened? As town you want to eliminate one nightkill from the equation as fast as possible. So why go for the second, full-strength scumteam first if you're going to go for one scumteam in particular?

Oh wait it's because you're RedScum looking for a rival.

[Wraith]

Wraith dumps a wall of me saying red and blue, concludes that I must be scum hunting the opposing faction right after he admits to knowing that I think he's aligned with texcat. However he also claims I am aligned with texcat, there's a huge hole in his logic there and he needs lynched

How is it a hole in

my

logic if I assume you're aligned with texcat while you assume I'm aligned with texcat?

The only possible reason you have to assume I am aligned with texcat is because I townread her and Grey and didn't want that slot Vigged.

That's

weak-ass logic.

[Wraith]

wraith can you see dunnstral lynch today or should I move to kyouko?

Dunn's not getting lynched if I can help it

[Wraith]

Also @Titus:

Slick was at L-1 for like a total 48 cumulative hours. If someone was going to hammer they would've done it by now. So clearly remaining town players who weren't already on the wagon aren't going to be satisfied with lynching lurker!scum.

At least we can also surmise that Slick is either:

1. Not Town

If he was Town scum would've capitalized on the easy mislynch and hammered IMO. Hammering Slick would have been an easy one to excuse oneself for since he has been lurking so hardcore.

2. All rival scumteam already on the wagon

If he is scum then the rival scumteam was already on the wagon and couldn't hammer.

[Wraith]

Or both actually. Those aren't mutually exclusive lol

[Wraith]

Oh yeah forgot to add this before:

As this would now be the fourth prod, Debi is being force-replaced for inactivity.

Sad that slick is still in game with this activity level, people are getting cold feet but it doesn't make sense for it to be bussers getting cold feet.

Anyways, sick of people pushing me over deciding the other team is blue, part of the reason I'm so confident saying blue over a d over again is to bait scum pushing a fake scumflip

VOTE: wraith
Provide real reasons for voting me

You provided a tldr so no I didn't read it on mobile

Didn't read my context for voting him and then accuses me of having no "real" reason for voting him.

[Wraith]

I wouldn't look for red because I don't think eliminating the NK is optimal, I think it's best to keep it up because they can still shoot each other

If you're not voting me for the reasons you gave in the post in which you voted me, then why are you voting me?

This is a BLATANT misrep

I'm not voting for Kyouko for the reason Kyouko is accusing/implying I am, I'm voting Kyouko for the reason

I

have stated.

[Wraith]

Also @Titus:

Slick was at L-1 for like a total 48 cumulative hours. If someone was going to hammer they would've done it by now. So clearly remaining town players who weren't already on the wagon aren't going to be satisfied with lynching lurker!scum.

At least we can also surmise that Slick is either:

1. Not Town

If he was Town scum would've capitalized on the easy mislynch and hammered IMO. Hammering Slick would have been an easy one to excuse oneself for since he has been lurking so hardcore.

2. All rival scumteam already on the wagon

If he is scum then the rival scumteam was already on the wagon and couldn't hammer.

Why are you supposing the wagoners off are town?

The more logical conclusion is scum do not want to hammer their buddy.

If the slot was town and a threat to the scumteam, he would be dead.

I am supposing that his scumbuddies are off the wagon.

But that third part is a possibility I hadn't taken into account...

[Wraith]

You'll note I haven't even given any reasons for why I voted Kyouko. I just put my vote there to see how he would react to the wagon.

What's disconcerting is I don't think anyone really pointed out that I provided dick shit in the way of reasoning.




His reaction was okay. And for the record all talk about the "blue" situation is total bullshit for a scumread. You don't scumread people for colors lol, let alone the color that's normally opposite to red.

Now for the.. main course


VOTE: Creature

Are you seriously taking credit for a "reaction wagon" that gained steam FIVE DAYS after you originally voted for him?

[Wraith]

Still crickets from wraith on reasons for voting me I see

No you've just been deliberately ignoring so I'm not going to bother repeating myself a third time.

[Wraith]

Answer the question or get powerwagoned kay thanks.

kind of difficult when I don't know what the fuck chainsawing means

Player A attacks Player B

Player C attacks Player A to indirectly defend Player B

[Wraith]

Answer the question or get powerwagoned kay thanks.

kind of difficult when I don't know what the fuck chainsawing means

Player A attacks Player B

Player C attacks Player A to indirectly defend Player B

[Wraith]

>New Avatar

Zach staaaaahp

[Wraith]

Titus why are you ignoring the Wraith wagon.
Wraith is obvious scum and he needs his head chopped off TODAY. PRONTO.
I'm going to be PRETTY ANGRY if you guys don't start voting him.

You still haven't explained why.

[Wraith]

It's funny because none of the people on this wagon have expressed their reasoning for why I'm scum.

But go ahead keep blindly following them. Considering how nobody else seems to actually care about this game you might as well silence your town voices.

[Wraith]

In fact, Severa, why don't you make your case? If you have one.

[Wraith]

Alisae's reason for voting me is easy to figure out. He's still tunneling from posts I made in like the first 20 pages.

Should I start a running counter of posts from Severa where she continues to push me and call me obvscum without laying out a case?

[Wraith]

wraith is town, fools

He would in fact say this about a scumbuddy, for the record.

so who in this game isn't scumbuddies with Wraith other than Titus according to you...

I think there's a 75% chance it's not rb

[Wraith]

I haven't finished reading (obviously). Are we confirmed multiball?

Considering the scumbag who's flipped had a named faction, I'd assume so.

[Wraith]

Checking in. I'm going to have to catch up later.

[Wraith]

Okay let's do this again.

Spoiler: Catch-up Wall

* My townread on Ircherslot is quickly reinforced. It was a fucking slog sitting there waiting for other players to stop being apathetic and start scumhunting.
* I'm kind of surprised dreal and Echo are putting so much effort into defending me.
* Since dreal's playstyle in this game has essentially just been "be pissy at everyone except Wraith" it's still impossible for me to confidently gauge his alignment. That said his continued insistence upon an Alisae policy lynch (as of page 160) is not good.
* #4011 is nonsense and a complete misrep. I didn't have a problem with people FoSing me for those posts until later this day, because people using that as the sole basis for pushing my lynch are just tunneling like crazy. And considering I've now explained twice now that that was a result of me badly misinterpreting Debi's original post and everybody seems to have ignored that it's pretty damn frustrating, yeah.
* HS is really inconsistent with his read of me. He's scumread me for the multiball stuff like Alisae and Severa, yet didn't stick with voting for me earlier in the day, and only now decides to rejoin the wagon? Almost nothing has changed since he originally unvoted me and #4018 - pretty much just Severa replacing in and pushing me and that push gaining momentum. The reasoning for HS's scumread hasn't changed or been elaborated upon. It seems really wishy-washy and opportunistic.
* #4048 seriously? If people have a problem with dreal pushing a policy lynch on Alisae do those same people have a problem with this push to policy lynch dreal?
* #4057 I've already acknowledged that the ridiculous leap to a conclusion I made there was indeed asinine. Like I've said twice now, I badly, badly misinterpreted Debi's post to be a scumslip on setup speculation when it was just a silly hypothetical on how Gin and Pine could end up as scum together. I didn't realize it until later.
* #4070 you say this as a joke but this is literally what Kyouko was pushing earlier, vice the lynching me in favor of "letting me get shot by the rival scumteam."
* #4088 this seems like a pretty baffling reversal to me. I was under the impression that Dunn scumread me strongly, so I don't understand why he isn't willing to lynch me and he hasn't elaborated on why he isn't.
* #4092/4096 this is a good point by Alisae. This reversal is pretty baffling to me as well. I've been strongly townreading Creature up to this point and suddenly I have a seed of doubt in my mind.
* #4102 @Creature: Big difference between Open and Closed setups.
* #4104 see

this

is a completely fair deduction. Nevertheless it also feels like deliberate projection, indirectly defending Kyouko by using my own accusations and logic against me.
* #4116 where the fuck this MortFeld scumread came is just baffling.
* #4119 Severa's continuous habit of making sweeping statements regarding alignments and affiliations without elaborating on why she has those reads is why I still scumread that slot instead of say, Titus or MortFeld. It feels disingenuous because Severa can do a sudden retraction or reversal on some of her reads and the rest of us can't get an idea as to why.
* #4157 Titus starting to feel my pain. This day became so lethargic just before the string of replacements, it was infuriating to be confident in a scumread and feel like nobody was bothering to pay attention. I guess I got my wish and it backfired spectacularly - now we finally have active players it's that the two most prolific posters since are thoroughly locked into a tunnel of me and are essentially strongarming all the apathetic sheep into following.
* #4176 Dunn is a total fucking mystery to me still. It seems like the wind was taken out of his sails when his fake guilty result didn't gain traction.
* #4199 Slick is still fucking coasting and it is infuriating.
* #4226 Hypocritical of me to complain about Slick coasting when AA is doing the same. I at least has a townread on AA before but I'm definitely going to have to re-evaluate on him. And considering he was a leading voice against Gin even before the fake Vig claim (IIRC) that's rather suspicious of me that he immediately went to lurking after Gin flipped town.
* #4258 what prompted the reversal from wanting to push AA earlier, Mort? Usually Mort has been pretty good about explaining his train of thought so this omission here is confusing.
* #4296 Am I the only one who thinks this is an alarming red flag?
* #4297 and this shit is even worse
* #4336 Again this setup/nightkill spec by Kyouko reeks to me.
* #4349 It was very obviously a joke and not even a reaction test, and I have no idea why a town player would push this misinterpretation.
* #4367 I think Mort's comments don't line up with his conclusion. Throughout his wall he's highlighting primarily reasons why I'm scummy yet concludes that I "might be town" at the end? That wall doesn't sit right with me.
* #4370 What the fuck is this enormous 180? Kyouko has been confidently saying that I am scum ALL DAY and suddenly gets cold feet on a wagon with momentum "because he doesn't like the company." What difference does the company make if you've been so confident about me being scum all freaking day? ESPECIALLY in a multiball game - if you have conviction that I'm scum, why should you care if other scumreads of yours are on the wagon with you? Scum is scum. It screams to me that either your scumread of me is disingenuous or that you plan to get rid of me in some of other way - I've personally believed most of the day now that you're scum who thinks they've pegged me as rival scum and plans to shoot me tonight, therefore lynching me isn't your strongest priority.
* #4382 Alisae, Severa has been lining up lynches ever since she replaced in. Are you only now noticing it? If you think Severa is scummy for lining up lynches then why are you allowing him to pocket you for this wagon on me? Though now that I think about it that's a distinct difference between Alisae and Kyouko - Alisae thinks he's on a wagon with bad company and stays on it, while Kyouko wouldn't. I just thought I'd point out that stark contrast.
* #4398 It's actually not, Echo, considering the comments and conclusion are totally inconsistent.
* #4415 Kill this with fire please. Kyouko's reads and votes are not genuine.

The tl;dr takeaways here are:

1. Kyouko is just prancing around with red flags and an alarm going off at this point. His votes and reads lack all conviction. I want to again point out in the particular the contrast between him and Alisae - Alisae thinks Severa is scummy but sticks with the wagon on me because his SR on me has conviction and being with bad company on a wagon is meaningless in multiball; Kyouko has earlier expressed a belief that I am scum and will be shot by the other scumteam tonight, then later hops off my wagon because of "bad company." Again, I've been under the impression for a while that Kyouko is scum who thinks I am scum and plans to shoot me N2, so lynching me today is unnecessary.

2. Severa is acting really scummy but as Titus said it's difficult to gauge whether or not he's just haughty and wearing blinders to everything or is actually scum knowingly pushing a mislynch.

3. I was pretty confident about townreading MortFeld until his big wall about my ISO. Yet again, his comments on my posts don't line up with his conclusion about my alignment.

This was a slog, arguably worse than earlier. So many players are STILL being apathetic as hell and it's allowing three or four players absolutely dominate all discussion. It's allowed the wagon on me to gain momentum and this late in the day it's probably going to inevitably go through as time ticks down. I've been extremely busy this week so far and if I don't get a chance to post again before a lynch goes through I just want to say Kyouko is 100% scum and should be lynched tomorrow after I flip town.

[Wraith]

Phone-posting

Really confused by that abomination of formatting. Did Rebbe just claim Vig?

[Wraith]

General question directed mostly at Titus but any experienced players: If there's a (1-shot) BP in this setup is it town or scum?

For the record, I've been thinking about this one a lot. @kyouko why did you ask this?

Holy shit how did I miss that?

[Wraith]

Popping in to say this claim by Severa is clearly bullshit. Pine showed no signs of being suspicious of me. He scumread Alisae throughout D1 and then came out D2 immediately voting Alisae. So there's no reason Pine would investigate me over Alisae N1 and even less reason for him to continue pushing Alisae early D2 when he has a gun result on me.

Severa herself didn't even come out swinging against me, she went after Echo version and switched to me later. I assume because I provoked a wagon in my #3614

This fake claim against me is clearly motivated by the wagon on me losing momentum. There's an equal possibility that Severa is scum or town and just has stupendously hard confirmation bias.

Be back later.

[Wraith]

Popping in to say this claim by Severa is clearly bullshit. Pine showed no signs of being suspicious of me. He scumread Alisae throughout D1 and then came out D2 immediately voting Alisae. So there's no reason Pine would investigate me over Alisae N1 and even less reason for him to continue pushing Alisae early D2 when he has a gun result on me.

Severa herself didn't even come out swinging against me, she went after Echo version and switched to me later. I assume because I provoked a wagon in my #3614

This fake claim against me is clearly motivated by the wagon on me losing momentum. There's an equal possibility that Severa is scum or town and just has stupendously hard confirmation bias.

Be back later.

[Wraith]

Hmm, okay, if I survive to the next day I'll make a revelation.

I can make a guess what it is.

[Wraith]

Oh am I at L-1?

[Wraith]

Well if I have no other choice

Claim Cop. Inno on Titus N1.

Creature likely the real Vig.

[Wraith]

Okay now that I have some bloody time I can explain things. Quote wall incoming.

Why did you out creature? I'm doubting that hard recently, I'm guessing you picked up on the same crumb I did.

Because outlining my suspicions of Creature's role are integral to understanding why I investigated Titus over Alisae N1.

I'll kill scum myself then.

I took this post for a Vig softclaim, especially after the series preceding it and ESPECIALLY after the one that followed:

Investigatives

Don't waste your precious checks on lurkers (unless you're some tracking-like role who thinks lurker will kill). They won't give info anyway.

I had already been getting PR vibes from Creature based on his playstyle - playing cards close to the chest - and my conclusion of "likely Vig" was due to him constantly pushing lurkers D1. I suspected it was either an attempt to provoke activity from the lurkers and thus separate town!lurkers from scum!lurkers, or to bait scum into an obvious mislynch wagon.

My suspicions of Creature being the Vig are also why I didn't believe Gin's claim whatsoever (combined with Gin loudly shouting about who he intended to "shoot"):

Yeah and it's very obviously fake. AA said it best:

I'm just using my vig shot on you, I dont care if I die claiming a power role, you're a worthy shot.

I'll self hammer at this point but lynch these slots lynched with fire after I'm dead.

Remember, the those 3 pushers of my lynch, also Echo. Let's end Day 1 please.

VOTE: Gin

SELF-HAMMERING IS NOT A TOWN VIG PLAY

SELF-VOTING IS NOT A TOWN VIG PLAY

FAKECLAIM DETECTED, EVERYONE GET YOUR VOTES ON GIN

I also think Zach's case is a decent one when (finally) viewed altogether. And those aren't the only two reasons.

It's tough because the wagon on Alisae is starting to gain steam again and rightfully so. But I'm putting more priority on the terrible, obvious fakeclaim.

Unvote

Vote: Gin

AM I GOING COMPLETELY MAD?!

So the claimed Vig threatens to use his shot on HS the following night, and then actively pushes and votes for his own lynch? And then we're

telegraphing his Vig shot in advance?

In the theoretical scenario where Gin is telling the truth and he is the Vig, and he believes he is shooting scum in Echo, why should we possibly believe scum will just allow this to happen? If we're speculating Vigs and SKs and god-knows-whatever, is it so much of a stretch to speculate that the scum have a Roleblocker handy?

How is this

POSSIBLY

pro-town activity?

and also why I'm currently

very

suspicious of Debi/Rebbe's Vig claim.

I suspected Titus picked up on the same softclaim and vibe, and that he was softclaiming a protective role, after this post:

I'll probably die N1 anyway.

Not if I have anything to say about it.

So I had a dilemma - investigate Alisae or Titus? I picked Titus because to me that would metaphorically confirm two birds with one stone in my mind. Turns out it confirmed three with one stone because the Grey/texcat flip made me firmly believe Alisae is town now.

In hindsight that was probably crucially flawed logic, but w/e. I think my scumreads at the start of the day illustrate my train of thought well enough:

Took a look at Grey/texcat's ISOs. One big thing I can take away from it is that my townread on Creature is cemented and I'm reversing on Alisae. Grey in particular did a lot to try to undermine those two players (as well as rb) early on.

Deftown

rb
Creature
Titus

Likely Town

Alisae
HS
Dunnstral

Neutral/Murky

Zach
Ircher
AA
Kyouko
Debi
drealmerz

Scumreads

Uzi
Echo
Pine
Slick

MortFeld recently pointed out a pretty crucial post Kyouko made:

General question directed mostly at Titus but any experienced players: If there's a (1-shot) BP in this setup is it town or scum?

For the record, I've been thinking about this one a lot. @kyouko why did you ask this?

Holy shit how did I miss that?

Which is pretty clearly Kyouko fishing for PRs and bumped up my 99% certainty of Scum!Kyouko to 100%. That he's asking this question makes me think there are now two possibilities:

1. Kyouko's scumteam shot Creature and think Titus protected him
2. Kyouko's scumteam shot Titus and suspect he is BP

[Wraith]

And for the record in case people are wondering why I would also investigate Titus over Creature it was because I had more confidence in the Creature townread.

[Wraith]

You are very clearly incorrect on Severa, not only because of my read on Severa but my read on how you came to scumread Severa.
That's a vanity wagon if I ever saw one, boys.

I'm gonna go here.
VOTE: Creature
Your scumgame evolved momentarily, but it's fallen apart again. Points for effort.

What the fuck is this dude? Creature is not scum.

[Wraith]

Okay I've still been extremely on the fence about what I think Severa's alignment is but a few of these recent rants...

Severa seems to assume an awful lot about how the scumteams will react to my claim, is

still

lining up lynches like crazy, and is now directing Vig shots.

Am I the only one uncomfortable with this?

[Wraith]

Frankly if I'm still alive tomorrow I'm perfectly fine letting myself get lynched just to confirm what I'm saying is true.

I've been 100% certain I'm getting shot tonight for most of the day anyhow, and if the scum decide to play the WIFOM game by leaving me alive then we'll need to smother that in the crib.

[Wraith]

Servera is voting to lynch claimed Cop. I get they're sure Wraith is scum (apparently) but that doesn't seem right.

I disagree with Wraith that Kyouko was PR fishing. There was pretty clearly a breadcrumb and I see the theory question there as NAI. Wraith can you talk more about this? Like why town wouldn't ask about alignment of BP

Why does a town player need to know what alignment a BP is when if the shot was absorbed by a BP no town player should know who the kill was directed toward?

[Wraith]

Cops don't say they're ok with getting lynched tho lmfao

It would confirm any results I have as being true.

With so many fucking fakeclaims having gone out already there's enough WIFOM around here to fill a swimming pool.

[Wraith]

I AM BEING UNPLEASANT AND SPITEFUL. DO YOU KNOW WHY I AM BEING UNPLEASANT AND SPITEFUL? WRAITH IS STILL ALIVE.

Scum or town I feel bad for Wraith

I don't take things said in thread personally. I know that feeling when you feel locked in on someone as scum and no one believes you.

[Wraith]

I AM BEING UNPLEASANT AND SPITEFUL. DO YOU KNOW WHY I AM BEING UNPLEASANT AND SPITEFUL? WRAITH IS STILL ALIVE.

Scum or town I feel bad for Wraith

I don't take things said in thread personally. I know that feeling when you feel locked in on someone as scum and no one believes you.

Me 3.

Echo lynch?

I actually believe Echo is town based on his reaction to Dunn's fakeclaim.

[Wraith]

I claimed gunsmith because I wanted people to think that I was fakeclaiming and people wouldn't counterclaim as a result.

I am actually a role cop and Wraith is even-night roleblocker which I assumed made him scum because of how it correlated with the other side's odd-night one.

So his claiming cop has turned my 99% confirmed scumfuck into a literally confirmed scumfuck.

Well there's the confirmation of my suspicions.

You have definitely been lying the entire time.

[Wraith]

Nah. This is legit.

That's why there's no obvious Wraith crumb. I don't think he caught on to what I was thinking.

Or I just don't crumb unless it's flavor-related. Which is the actual case here.

[Wraith]

OH>

fai R C op

Okay I think Severa has legitimately lost her mind.

[Wraith]

Well, if y'all are going to believe someone so obviously full of shit then there's nothing I can do, and I wash my hands of this whole thing.

Godspeed town.

[Wraith]

Oh I forgot to throw these out there before I completely wash my hands of this debacle:

* Kyouko is scum for reasons I've explained in detail repeatedly

* Debi/Rebbe is likely scum. Almost certainly lying about being a Vig. Creature was deliberately holding back on what type of Vig he was, implied he was limited in some way, and believed there were two Vigs probably because he was restricted. Rebbe claimed full Vig and I guarantee is lying about that.

* I was still operating under the belief Severa was just a VT gambitting really hard to get me lynched due to confbias (as she is 100% lying about her "result" and by extension her second claim) but considering she's now attempting to direct Vig shots on various people and Doctor Protects onto her I'm starting to lean scum.

* One of Slick or All Alone is scum.

[Wraith]

Don't think I have that many comments. As I said in the dead thread the scumteams cross-killed/lynched each other way too early to have a chance. TBH the town was playing badly enough at several points that this could have easily resulted in a scum sweep if those teams hadn't killed each other.

My D1 play always always always kills me except under special circumstances, no matter what alignment I am. I'll resist the urge to lurk and inevitably say something stupid because I have a poor instinct to filter, someone will latch onto it for the rest of the game, and that will be that. I came to terms pretty early with the fact that I would never make it to endgame, and encouraged HS to bus me as soon as it became a likelihood from the very beginning of the game (hence why I was secretly laughing at Severa/RC rendering everyone who immediately defended me D2 guilty by association - it was fucking hard to resist the urge to mock people for that). That said I'm astonished my cop claim came

this close

to buying me that last extra night that I wanted, and I'm equally astonished that the town so readily believed the word of very obvious liar Severa/RC. When they tried to double down on their "bread crumb" (which was equally possibly a typo or a deliberate setup by Pine) by equating the fai

r

C

op to a Rolecop abbreviation I thought they were totally done as a credible source but nope - people are just dumb even if the insane prophet they followed was correct by chance. Sorry if that's blunt but by the end of that sequence I was just constantly wondering "Really?"

Severa won their case by sheer volume of posts due to the apathy of the town. As I noted in PTs it was pretty infuriating for some time during D2 because the town was SO apathetic that Severa was allowed to push an extremely weak case and make it appear strong by sheer virtue of being the only person really pushing a case for several days. If the town had more proactive players in terms of scumhunting Severa never would've gotten away with that. By the end of that day it was obvious that Severa was totally full of shit but it seemed as if people were tired of hearing them talk and just wanted to end things. But to Severa's credit I was convinced they were a really, really desperate VT until they started trying to direct Vig shots and Doc protects - at that point it became rather obvious they scum trying to strongarm a bunch of sheep townies.

HS was a good teammate, the low-key fellow traveler to compliment my lightning rod of suspicion. For the record a great deal of my scumreads/scumhunting wasn't fake because I was trying to find the other scumteam. Ironically I ended up classifying a rival scumbag (Uzi) as our own Traitor and our real Traitor (Zach) as a rival scumbag. HS's problem is that he made some really poor nightkill choices after my death, but I'm not entirely sure I would have made better choices myself. In particular the AA kill attempt N3 was baffling to me since it was fairly obvious to me after the Uzi lynch that drealmerz would protect him.

It was ridiculous chance and totally unfortunate for both scumteams that they roleblocked our kill the first night. That had catastrophic long-term results, and I find it very very hard to believe that Severa's 100% confident scumread of me had nothing to do with that roleblock despite what they claimed in the dead PT.

As I noted in the dead PT, Alisae played like crap D1 (despite their accurate scumread of me) but really came into his own in later days. Bravo, you are my pick for town MVP this game. You were clearly the most coherent and well-read town player after D2.

[Wraith]

Yes Wraith I understand that your ego is hurt by how easily I picked you as scum and got you lynched as scum PR but there's really no need to discredit both the town and me over it.

My point isn't that I didn't play like crap (my D1 play doomed me no matter what) it's that circumstance allowed you to get away with more than I think you would have normally. But I don't think I played particularly well.

The fact that it took an

extremely

audacious and dedicated effort

from a slot that also ended up flipping scum after telegraphing it so thoroughly

to lynch me, and then said slot was barely suspected before being cross-killed, tells me that the town played poorly before PoE made it obvious who scum actually were.

If both scumteams had aimed their kills/PR abilities slightly more effectively, this game would have turned out radically differently. I guarantee it.