Mini #534 - Vegetable Mafia (Game Over!)

[ryan]

Phate: I still don't understand HOW you know what the scum got or didn't get as far as safe claims. Unless you were scum you wouldn't know that and I agree with WhoMe? you've slipped up twice now in this game and that's enough for me to drop a vote on you. You knowing what scum safeclaims are would make you scum wouldn't it? Why would a townie get a safeclaim? You are too inconsistent for me to feel good about you being town

Unvote/Vote: Phate

[Patrick]

Votecount

ryan (2) -- Crub, Phate
Crub (1) -- Y
destructor (1) -- Oman
Phate (4) -- kravhen, thedragonsprincess, WhoMe?, ryan
kravhen (1) -- gorckat
Oman (1) -- destructor

Not Voting: thinktank, soupfly
12 alive, 7 to lynch.

[Y]

Phate: I still don't understand HOW you know what the scum got or didn't get as far as safe claims. Unless you were scum you wouldn't know that and I agree with WhoMe? you've slipped up twice now in this game and that's enough for me to drop a vote on you. You knowing what scum safeclaims are would make you scum wouldn't it? Why would a townie get a safeclaim? You are too inconsistent for me to feel good about you being town

Unvote/Vote: Phate

It was already explained that he meant something different than what is called in the game a "Safe Claim".
I'm getting the feeling that you're trying to get the pressure on some one just to get it off your back. I don't like it.

Could you please tell me what was the first slip-up WhoMe? was referring to? The one you say you're agreeing with.

FoS: ryan

too. I can't decide if one of them is scum, trying to get the other hanged, or are they both scum, trying to distance from each other.

Unvote.

My vote on Crub has no real meaning at the moment.

[Phate]

Oh.

No, that's not what I was talking about at all. I meant that if all the vanillas were lettuce, that would be giving the scum a safe claim... but I also couldn't know that unless I was vanilla.

Now, I repeat, explain to me why this makes me scum.

[ryan]

Phate: I still don't understand HOW you know what the scum got or didn't get as far as safe claims. Unless you were scum you wouldn't know that and I agree with WhoMe? you've slipped up twice now in this game and that's enough for me to drop a vote on you. You knowing what scum safeclaims are would make you scum wouldn't it? Why would a townie get a safeclaim? You are too inconsistent for me to feel good about you being town

Unvote/Vote: Phate

It was already explained that he meant something different than what is called in the game a "Safe Claim".
I'm getting the feeling that you're trying to get the pressure on some one just to get it off your back. I don't like it.

Could you please tell me what was the first slip-up WhoMe? was referring to? The one you say you're agreeing with.

FoS: ryan

too. I can't decide if one of them is scum, trying to get the other hanged, or are they both scum, trying to distance from each other.

Unvote.

My vote on Crub has no real meaning at the moment.

1st slip was using “safe claims” and acting like they were known to everyone when if there were safe claims only the mafia would know them (not townies)

2nd slip was saying that he didn’t know what safe claims were BUT yet he just used it in post 245 to attempt to explain himself

Also there were two votes on me, I don’t know how that is considered heat or pressure on me, care to explain?

[Phate]

Both "slips" are completely explained by the fact that I misunderstood what a safe claim is. For your second "slip", I was explaining what I thought was meant by safe claims.

I've adequately explained my voting you.

[ryan]

You can explain your "slips" all you want but they are called slips for a reason, they helped out you as a scum. As for your voting on me...........I wasn't questioning it, you've made up your reasons and plan on sticking to them, that's fine, you're wrong, but it's your opinion. I was asking Y a question in the above response to his question

[Phate]

Translation: "You can explain why your slips aren't slips all you want, but they're still slips, because I said so, and obviously, they helped you, because obviously, they're scum. Oh, and I'm town."

Confirm Vote: Ryan

[ryan]

Phate: You can flip and change things all you want, a slip up is a slip up, period. You made it, don't be upset at me for outing yourself. BTW, confirming votes are a very desperate way to get actual townies to follow you. Try evidence in getting people to vote with you.

[Phate]

Ryan, I've already explained why it isn't a slip. Your response was "whatever, scum." YOU telling ME that I'm "flipping and changing things" or not using evidence is pretty ironic.

[ryan]

Phate: I don't buy your explanation, I think you messed up and now are scrambling to cover your ass. My response was NOT whatever you are scum, my response was you messed up, you outed yourself and your fellow scum's safe claims (which we appreciate for later in the game when claims become more consistent) You've never questioned me on your reasoning for why I'm alleged scum, so what do I have to answer to you? Did I miss a question somewhere?

[Phate]

Tell me, what's the difference between "whatever, scum" and "I don't buy your explanation, I think you messed up and now are scrambling to cover your ass."?

You say you don't buy my explanation, but you don't say why, which is odd, because it's a perfectly reasonable explanation (I'm new to the site, I can't be expected to automatically know all vocabulary terms). For crying out loud, look at my join date.

[gorckat]

Highlights and observations in brief:

23: Why didn't Oman jsut shift to Phate when Phate voted NJH for voting Oman?

43-44: something about Y and ryan pulling people of souplfy gets my eye

I think NJH made sense questioning Oman's sef bandwagon- Oman did take getting called out on more seriously than seemed warratned.

Crub and destructor's votes on ryan both look dicey.

During my spectator reading, I believed destructor's claim that the ryan vote was a townie gambit/ruse. Still do.

100: Agree with Oman that this post sucks. There's no logical basis for it at all:

1) Perhaps Y and his partners weren't on it at all?
2) Perhaps 3 scum were on it?
3) Perhaps there's only two scum and it was one and one?

Too much speculation.

~113: I think Phate was trying awfully hard to make destructor look scummy. Ryan and WhoMe jumped right on, too.

122 and 130: I do, in a contrarian fashion, agree with Phate and think it looked like krahven was giving destructor an out, not that he needed it. He'd already explained the ruse.

Phate had a problem wth krahven's 124 (saying Phate thought destructor was "obviously scum"). Looking back at Phate's recent posts, it looks pretty clear you think destructor is scummy. Why else say things like, "Wow, way to give your buddy an out, huh, kravhen?"

~138: Second Y that krahven looks jumpy/over-reactive.

Fascinating back and forth between ryan and Phate, now.

I agree that ryan has some follower like reasons for voting destructor (Y nailed them in 152), but Phate doubles back around saying destructor's scummy but not that scummy and not as scummy as ryan.

186: Crub appears! And adds...nothing, really. Lurker.

189: Oh, wait. He thinks destructor slipped up.

196: souplfy does the same, but seems to do it little better than Crub.

199: souplfy seems to have been scum fishing with his vote on destructor

214: Holy crap- Day 1 massclaim? WTF is soup thinking?

215: Not sure why phate would claim there...

Same for tdp...

I'll have to address this whole Phate/ryan business in my next post, but for the moment:

For crying out loud, look at my join date.

Appeal to Newbness

I'll come to conclusions shortly. I need to digest.

[Phate]

Note: I've already explained that the "wow, way to give your buddy an out" wasn't a serious accusation, just my being frustrated at kravhen's behaviour. Yes, I do find destructor scummy. But I'm not positive that he's scum.

And as for the appeal to newbness, what can I say except that it's true?

[soupfly]

214: Holy crap- Day 1 massclaim? WTF is soup thinking?

i'm not saying that we should claim roles but rather vegetables. my take is that the veggies are to give the game flavor, not substance. the townies are greens and the scum are not.

if we claim our veggie role (which means nothing except for whether we are town or not) then it will be far easier for townies to name their veggies than scum who will have to invent a veggie. if we manage to get two people claiming the same veggie then we may have a hit on a scum. that was the strategy.

but for that to work you need to have an arbitrary predetermined order. otherwise, scum will just claim last after everyone has called out their veggie.

[soupfly]

Closed setup. The scum will all claim lettuce (vanilla).

I don't think a massclaim is a good idea for town.

i'm assuming that phate just claimed his role with this because there's no way he could assume that all vanilla are lettuce unless that is his role. very badly played but i don't think this makes him scum.

the issue of the closed setup is again something that means very little since neither scum nor townies (even power roles) can know this for sure. unless he's not playing by the rules and has interacted with other people outside of this thread then i think its just another newb mistake.

there probably some scum on this wagon because at first glance it screams of bad play. unfortunately its bad townie play and not scum play. he may still be scum but not for this slip up.

I'm quite happy to go either way with the veggie claim, but worry of the chance of outing power-roles. From the exchange between Phate and thedragonprincess, if we're to believe them, it seems that there

aren't

any duplicate roles, so claiming vanilla townie isn't so easy. But this seems game-breaking, which makes me wonder. If scum have safe claims, this achieves next to nothing for the town, while giving scum some info.

i also worry about the issue of the power-roles possibly being inferred if the pattern of veggy assignment is consistent with the role. for instance small veggies being vanilla and bigger veggies being

so for now i'm off of the veggie claim idea (don't confuse this with a mass claim). maybe later but too risky now.

[Phate]

No, soupfly, I'm not cheating. A post or two later, I confirmed - that was indeed a Lettuce vanilla townie claim.

I would consider a nameclaim, but not a roleclaim.

You know what would be cool? An encrypted mass claim. What would you guys think about that?

[ryan]

Encrypted mass claim? Explain

[kravhen]

I'm not a lettuce.

Unvote

And this vote is too dated.

[Phate]

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6500 <-- encrypted claims.

[gorckat]

Absolutely not.

Thoughts?

Yes -- there's no reason not to encrypt your role at the start of the game, which is usually a breaking strategy. We discussed this in an earlier thread (named "ethics: codes", I think). There should be a rule against this stuff, but it's hard to say where to draw the line.

I think it is against the spirit of the game.

[destructor]

1) Perhaps Y and his partners weren't on it at all?

Y and his partners? What are you saying here?

Actaully, Y, regarding Post 100, can you address the points Oman bought up?

Mod: Crub needs (cattle) prodding!

[thinktank]

encrypted claims are not viable, i agree with Y that they are not in teh spirit of the game. Unlike a lot of people i will give Phat ethe benefit of the doubt that he didn't know what the safe claim was and its definetly not enough to vote him. True its scummy but considering he admitted he didnt know what it was and his join date implies this as well, I don't think he has enough strikes on him to lynch as ryan stated.

But seriously, stop coming up with these oddball ideas, they aren't helping town at all: safe claim and the encrypted claim? really?

Phate's actions are definetly scummy, being new or not is besides that point however don't hammer him yet, i think he is at lynch-2 but more information is needed, we don't have the smoking gun yet.

[gorckat]

Y and his partners? What are you saying here?

Throwing out various ways his '2 scum on the wagon' could be way off. I didn't even look to see if Y was on the wagon, but just threw the scenario out there.

unvote

vote: thinktank

i will give Phat ethe benefit of the doubt that he didn't know what the safe claim was and its definetly not enough to vote him.

True its scummy

but considering he admitted he didnt know what it was and his join date implies this as well, I don't think he has enough strikes on him to lynch as ryan stated.

But seriously, stop coming up with these oddball ideas, they aren't helping town at all: safe claim and the encrypted claim? really?

Phate's actions are definetly scummy,

being new or not is besides that point however don't hammer him yet

Each section, in sequence, weaves all over the place. Is he scummy for what he's done or not? Is it enough to have him at -2 or not?

[WhoMe?]

encrypted claims are not viable, i agree with Y that they are not in teh spirit of the game. Unlike a lot of people i will give Phat ethe benefit of the doubt that he didn't know what the safe claim was and its definetly not enough to vote him. True its scummy but considering he admitted he didnt know what it was and his join date implies this as well, I don't think he has enough strikes on him to lynch as ryan stated.

But seriously, stop coming up with these oddball ideas, they aren't helping town at all: safe claim and the encrypted claim? really?

Phate's actions are definetly scummy, being new or not is besides that point however don't hammer him yet, i think he is at lynch-2 but more information is needed, we don't have the smoking gun yet.

its not just the safe claim thing. First was the all vanilla townies are lettuce, which has been counter claimed already. What I am wondering is if Scum were given lettuce as a safe claim, Phate has misunderstood thinking that this means all vanilla are lettuce and this is what caused the situation