WWE Mafia - RAW (OFF TELEVISION)

[Leonshade]

Hey Banana Mint, remember this?



VOTE: Banana Mint

[Leonshade]

VOTE: Leonshade

Throwing shade is a scum move, and his name is Leon-shade. Coincidence?

Damn, you caught me

McMenno's dayvig thing is an obvjoke, don't like ThinkBig's overreaction to it.

Kmd's entrance pinged me, liking Narna for seeing the same thing.

[Leonshade]

McMenno's dayvig thing is an obvjoke, don't like ThinkBig's overreaction to it.

Meh. TB is an overly serious player when it comes to the rules, so that kind of response is natural for him. Doesn't make me lean one way or the other.

It's a Mod confirmed ability. Preytell, how is it a joke?

Spamming your abilities on page 1 is the joke. Cracked me up, at least.

[Leonshade]

McMenno's dayvig thing is an obvjoke, don't like ThinkBig's overreaction to it.

Meh. TB is an overly serious player when it comes to the rules, so that kind of response is natural for him. Doesn't make me lean one way or the other.

It's a Mod confirmed ability. Preytell, how is it a joke?

Spamming your abilities on page 1 is the joke. Cracked me up, at least.

I don't like this. Regardless of whether Menno was "joking" or not, it should be obvious why ThinkBig wouldn't find it funny. Why do you think his reaction is scummy here?

VOTE: Leonshade

Scum are more likely to push on jokes than scum in my experience. At least newbscum, I tended to take joke-y tells/actions as serious as newbscum because I was so focused on finding something to push on.

Leon, mcmenno's action wasn't a joke. See the mod's next post. Thinkbig is "gone" unless someone stops it.

Using the actions/finishers for real was the joke.

[Leonshade]

Ms Columbo's questions are a bit awkward, but they're the kinds of questions I could see a newb asking when trying to figure people out.

@DodgeTheSaint:

Post 53 reads like you scumread McMenno, I'd like to hear why.

[Leonshade]

Ms Columbo's questions are a bit awkward, but they're the kinds of questions I could see a newb asking when trying to figure people out.

@DodgeTheSaint:

Post 53 reads like you scumread McMenno, I'd like to hear why.

Eh, the situation changed a bit on his part.

Changed how?

Narna is a solid TR now.

@All Alone:

Chill, the game started a couple days ago and it's holiday season. I for one am not focusing on mafia much right now, and I certainly won't be playing much during this weekend. Wait until people are returning to their regular routines before demanding full activity now.

[Leonshade]

AC makes some very good points about why reading the other thread is a good idea. Extra work with little short-term relevance doesn't appeal to me, either, but I'll try to at least somewhat keep up with the other thread so I have an idea of what to expect on D2 onwards. A good draft could be a huge boon for us, while a bad draft could make the game swing in the other direction. It's easier for Almost Chara to make good drafts if we've got players helping them.

Interestingly we might win or lose the game in the draft, if we draft our last scum player away or switch a town player for scum before LYLO.

[Leonshade]

At least this thread is easy to catch up on.

VOTE: DodgeTheSaint

First, I'd still like to hear an answer to this question:

Ms Columbo's questions are a bit awkward, but they're the kinds of questions I could see a newb asking when trying to figure people out.

@DodgeTheSaint:

Post 53 reads like you scumread McMenno, I'd like to hear why.

Eh, the situation changed a bit on his part.

Changed how?

Second, I don't like your ISO. Most of your ISO is yammering on about the topic of interaction with the other thread, and while your negative viewpoint on it is NAI, the way you talk about it isn't. First, your talking points on the topic are too general, it's mechanics talk/information instead of analysis. Second, 162 reads disingenuous:

Nah, the activity in this thread is really perfect right now.

Here was my thought process coming into the game.

Me: Scum always look for the easy way to make posts. What's the easy way in this game? "Scumhunting" the other thread. Okay. I can respond one of two ways. One, I can let players do it for a bit, and try to catch them out on it.

Two, I can attack the first player to do it, judge reactions, and generally just try to shut it down.

I chose my second option, for better or worse.

You seem to be backing off your original point now that it's obvious everyone disagrees with it. Also, you claim that you "attacked" the first player as a reaction test and to try to shut down this antitown behavior, but that's not even what happened:

Mcmenno is looking towny. Kmd can be scum though.

VOTE: Kmd4390

Spoiler: Smackdown

Titus looks town

Alternatively, we can also vote this. When you see it...

You threw shade at Narna to start things off. You later tried to use it as a scumtell, but then you backed off of that after your interactions with Narna. But you don't say you changed your mind, you say "lol reaction test"? That's BS.

[Leonshade]

I think we could have gotten more reactions from players and especially Thinkbig had his submission gotten closer to the deadline. I personally wanted more than some omgus for him to get out of it.

Keep hold of that thought, we'll come back to it later.

I'd like to hear about this, too.

[Leonshade]

With Narna and Columbo on the TB slot, null leaning scum for me. TB apparently having a history of overreacting does make me lean more towards null for now.

@Ms Columbo:

Kane is the character/wrestler McMenno has. Everyone's wrestler is listed in the first post, but it looks like they're only listed in pictures, so if you don't know the flavor, you won't know who anyone is. The sign-up thread does have a list attaching the faces to the character names, if you really want to find out (though I don't think it's that relevant right now).

@AC:

I'd like to hear about your TRs on me and Nero. I feel like I haven't done much so far, and neither has Nero.

[Leonshade]

Apologies for the wall:

At least this thread is easy to catch up on.

VOTE: DodgeTheSaint

First, I'd still like to hear an answer to this question:

Ms Columbo's questions are a bit awkward, but they're the kinds of questions I could see a newb asking when trying to figure people out.

@DodgeTheSaint:

Post 53 reads like you scumread McMenno, I'd like to hear why.

Eh, the situation changed a bit on his part.

Changed how?

Changed because votes break submissions. I digested the ability as needing another player to use an ability to break it. To me, he was fishing for someone else to use their ability to break the submission, because no way we'd allow someone to be killed in the first 48. A single vote breaking submissions surprised me.

That's actually a sensible position.

Second, I don't like your ISO. Most of your ISO is yammering on about the topic of interaction with the other thread, and while your negative viewpoint on it is NAI, the way you talk about it isn't. First, your talking points on the topic are too general, it's mechanics talk/information instead of analysis. Second, 162 reads disingenuous:

Nah, the activity in this thread is really perfect right now.

Here was my thought process coming into the game.

Me: Scum always look for the easy way to make posts. What's the easy way in this game? "Scumhunting" the other thread. Okay. I can respond one of two ways. One, I can let players do it for a bit, and try to catch them out on it.

Two, I can attack the first player to do it, judge reactions, and generally just try to shut it down.

I chose my second option, for better or worse.

You seem to be backing off your original point now that it's obvious everyone disagrees with it. Also, you claim that you "attacked" the first player as a reaction test and to try to shut down this antitown behavior, but that's not even what happened:

First, I'm right about this, so you can slow you roll there buddy. Furthermore, once players started reading what I was writing instead of going "Dodge is telling us not to read...SCUM", it turns out that THEY AGREE. But sure, let's pretend that I'm backing off because 'everyone disagrees'. When you join me in the reality of this game, let me know.

People agree that scum might hide behind shallow reads of the other thread, a position I agree with as well. But there's a difference between that, and interaction with the other thread in general. The people you've discussed this with, players like Narna and Lil Uzi, clearly don't agree with you, as they're still interacting with the Smackdown thread.

To clarify, I believe your stated position is this: Scum like to hide behind posts that are easy to make. Shallow posts about another thread are easy posts to make. Therefore, discussion with the other thread (that doesn't benefit this thread) is antitown , as it makes it easier for scum to hide behind posts that benefit their style. For that reason, you claim to have tried to shut down discussion with the other thread from the beginning of the game, in an attempt to stop this antitown behavior. Am I correct?

Mcmenno is looking towny. Kmd can be scum though.

VOTE: Kmd4390

Spoiler: Smackdown

Titus looks town

Alternatively, we can also vote this. When you see it...

You threw shade at Narna to start things off. You later tried to use it as a scumtell, but then you backed off of that after your interactions with Narna. But you don't say you changed your mind, you say "lol reaction test"? That's BS.

I cannot help you if you don't know the difference between someone sorting a player, and someone going 'lol reaction test'. Guess which one I actually did? (here's a hint: I interacted with a player, was satisfied, and moved on.) Still don't know? Well okay.

If I am correct on my above point, here is my problem: You said that you chose to "attack the first attack the first player to do it, judge reactions, and generally just try to shut it down". But your first post about Narna was not an attack at all, it looks like a post implying that he's being scummy. I'm having trouble expressing this thought briefly, so I'll express it in a bit of an awkward way: Your stated position looks like the following:

"I attacked Narna (the first player to engage in behavior I consider antitown) to judge the reactions of both him and others, as well as to generally try to shut down this antitown behavior."

Whereas your first post about Narna does not look like an attack, at least not in a direct, reaction-judging/shutting-things-down way. If I had had to describe your interaction with Narna before post 162, it would've been similar to what you claim in post 192: "Dodge thought Narna's behavior looked scummy/was pinged by something Narna did, but after interacting with him he changed his read." But in post 162 you seem to claim that your interaction with Narna was a more deliberate attack, an attack to shut down general behavior, when that's not what it looks like. Your description of your behavior after the fact doesn't match the behavior you're describing.

[Leonshade]

I wish I had someone to proofread my posts, I feel like my thoughts have merit but when I type them down I have struggle expressing what it is I found so convincing about them.

I want Raw's opinion on drafting KT. It seems like a no brainer. Grey was nai pushing them for being too aggressive. They softed a pr well before any shenanigans, and while I don't have a solid tr on the slot. I believe he has a role that we can sort him with and manipulate to help town.

That sounds infinitely preferable to drafting some shady player like grey, or some huge question mark meta read in MariaR.

You want to draft KT? While I find him entertaining and don't have a problem with him myself, there are players who dislike/are distracted by his style.

I don't really have draft thoughts, while I'm casually following the other thread, I'm not reading it with the same critical eye that I would with a game I'm actively engaging in.

[Leonshade]

That Penguinox thing can die to. I'd use my finisher but I don't want anyone to interfere otherwise it seems like a waste. Thoughts on both brands using today as a double lynch day?

Is it just the lurking? I'm still willing to give the lurkers a chance due to the time of year, and lynching a lurker usually feels more like a compromise than a good lynch.

[Leonshade]

Ms columbo, my town read on lil is news to me. I didn't realize I had much of a read on him. So thanks for clearing that up. Also, yeah, thinkbig town is my steongest town read in the game. It's obvious why he was so bothered by mcmenno's action,

but if you can't figure out why, I'm not going into it. Maybe scum can't figure it out either.

The replace out is a bit more than mildly annoying though. This kind of thing is why people who replace out shouldn't be allowed to join new games for at least a month.

I don't really understand what you're trying to imply with the bolded. You don't seem to be implying that Ms Columbo is scum, but yet her behavior is similar to what you claim scum might do? Am I reading too much into this?

@Almost Chara:

Thanks for trying! I didn't expect cases, but I like that you provided them anyway.

[Leonshade]

That Penguinox thing can die to. I'd use my finisher but I don't want anyone to interfere otherwise it seems like a waste. Thoughts on both brands using today as a double lynch day?

Is it just the lurking? I'm still willing to give the lurkers a chance due to the time of year, and lynching a lurker usually feels more like a compromise than a good lynch.

Mostly yes. The Karnos head is p active sitewide and there hasn't really been any scumhunting when they've been here. 32 is kinda funky.

Oh, I didn't realize Penguinos was a hydra, it doesn't list them as one in the OP.

[Leonshade]

Other than your interpretation of my interaction with Narna not matching to what I'm saying, I think you understand the course of events pretty well. Sure Post #27 wasn't much of an attack. At that point in time, my thoughts about McMenno were more important to me, so I was pinging Narna's post more than attacking it.

Agreed that that's what #27 looks like.

Attacking is not really the right word, I don't feel like I was attacking Narna personally, I was intending to attack a certain behavior (that at this point we all seem to get and agree one so...) that I thought was potentially on display. When Narna explained her thoughts, it was clear to me she wasn't doing it just to 'look town'. Anyway, once someone else (KMD) responded to #27, I elaborated a bit.

So #27 simply pinged you, but later on you attacked Narna's behavior, as you talked about in #162? I'll need to re-read your interactions with Narna, but that makes more sense.

Alright, I'll chew on this. In the meantime, I'd like to hear who you're scumreading at the moment.

[Leonshade]

Agreed on Columbo, but there is nothing obvtown about ThinkBig.

[Leonshade]

@Ms Columbo:

It's not a townslip/tell, but it does mean KMD and Lil Uzi are probably not buddies (so what KMD said).

@KMD:

I'm pretty clueless about today's lynch as well, I'm less confident about my Dodge SR after my interactions with him, and there's so little activity and so many lurkers that I haven't sorted half the players in any way.

[Leonshade]

I'll write a longer response later, but I no longer want to lynch Dodge.

UNVOTE:

[Leonshade]

Other than your interpretation of my interaction with Narna not matching to what I'm saying, I think you understand the course of events pretty well. Sure Post #27 wasn't much of an attack. At that point in time, my thoughts about McMenno were more important to me, so I was pinging Narna's post more than attacking it.

Agreed that that's what #27 looks like.

Attacking is not really the right word, I don't feel like I was attacking Narna personally, I was intending to attack a certain behavior (that at this point we all seem to get and agree one so...) that I thought was potentially on display. When Narna explained her thoughts, it was clear to me she wasn't doing it just to 'look town'. Anyway, once someone else (KMD) responded to #27, I elaborated a bit.

So #27 simply pinged you, but later on you attacked Narna's behavior, as you talked about in #162? I'll need to re-read your interactions with Narna, but that makes more sense.

Alright, I'll chew on this. In the meantime, I'd like to hear who you're scumreading at the moment.

It was me making a note of it and inviting others to give any input before I gave my interpretation. Hence the 'when you see it you'll shit bricks' meme. As in 'if you see what I see, you'll find it scummy'. Sometimes I like to use memes and one-liners to say things because I find it hilarious and or ridiculous. And sometimes people react hilariously (though that's just a perk).

I know a lot of people are writing off McMenno's power dump as RVS nonsense, and I get that instinct. I don't like writing anything off as RVS nonsense though. (yes I know what you're thinking, I just said I post things because I find them hilarious, difference for me is the substance behind) I don't know about you guys, but when I read my Role PM I didn't assume that everyone had the same two powers. Here I was thinking I drew a modified dayvig, and had to use it responsibly. I explained my initial reaction to his use (in that I thought A) I'm town, he has the scum version of my powers and B) I figured he was trying to get someone else to waste a power to counter this). But as you pointed out, I spent a fair amount of posts on Narna. One thing I didn't do though was move my vote. I may not have known that everyone had the same two powers, but scum probably did. I think the lack of responsibility with the power doesn't come from 'the lulz' but with the understanding that multiple players had the power and it wasn't so special.

Other than that, no one has this 'aha' scum moment like Mcmenno does. I'd probably be more willing to lean on 'he was just doing RVS nonsense' if he was producing anything at all since then. His posts really just consist of glossing over this thread, and saying he doesn't know what's going on. I don't subscribe to the theory that every post a scum player makes is scummy. So right now, other scum players are not making those posts/not really posting.

I now understand your McMenno read much better, and I can see where you're coming from. But when it comes to McMenno not having much of a presence in the game thus far, that's just McMenno's usual playstyle. I've usually had trouble sorting him D1, but (I think I'm) better at spotting his scumhunting later on.

@Narna:

I'm willing to join you on that, we need to sort these lurkers somehow.

[Leonshade]

That huge quote was probably not necessary for such a small post, but then neither is this post apologizing for the above one.

[Leonshade]

Semi-back from holidays. I read through this thread once but I am still lost, so this isn't going to be a terribly constructive post.

Something leonshade posted sounded scummy.

Seems like reading both threads is optimal, why were people calling it scummy to read the other thread?

Going to lunch shortly, might be able to respond more thoroughly later tonight, if not tomorrow at work for sure.

What happened to this? You never followed up.

And I find it interesting that Narna wants to lynch the lurkers. Classic scum strategy to get an easy town lynch without drawing a lot of attention.

I find it interesting that when you do contribute to the thread, you throw shade then disappear. And by interesting I mean scummy.

VOTE: Penguinos

[Leonshade]

Above is L-2.

Leon: what about Dodge's recent posting have you liked?
~Chara

I thought his positions were contradictory/fake, but our interactions cleared his stance up for me.

[Leonshade]

I find it interesting that when you do contribute to the thread, you throw shade then disappear. And by interesting I mean scummy.

Nice try. I'm voting you, not throwing shade.

You've been voting me since RVS and the quote above is the only explanation you've offered since.

[Leonshade]

Yes, and the term "throwing shade" typically means casting someone in a negative light without voting them, in the hopes of getting a wagon going without being on the vote count.

I'm not doing that, thus you are misrepresenting my position.

Throwing shade is what you did to Narna.

I am not misrepresenting you by not using the textbook definition of the term. You voted me in RVS, then later claimed to see something scummy I posted, but you haven't followed up on it. You claimed that Narna is scummy, but didn't follow it up with a vote.

Are you scumreading me, but either cannot, or refuse to explain why? Or, if the vote on me is an RVS, why are you not voting for Narna?

[Leonshade]

Above is L-2.

Leon: what about Dodge's recent posting have you liked?
~Chara

I thought his positions were contradictory/fake, but our interactions cleared his stance up for me.

can you be more specific? that's why i asked. you unvoted Dodge just after i said he was an even better townread. which stances/explanations of Dodge changed your feelings.
~Chara

This feels a bit like busywork to me, it's hard for me to answer this without quoting the posts in question. Posts 216 and 262 are the posts where Dodge answered my questions. In 216 Dodge explained that his initial post about Narna's entrance wasn't part of the attack that he mentioned 162, he was pinged by the post and pointed it out. Only later did he execute his attack, but after interacting with Narna Dodge sorted him.

Dodge's initial scumread on McMenno also makes sense, you can see that in 262. While I think that town is more likely to be reckless with/waste their powers, I can see Dodge's point that scum would be the first to know that multiple players have the same powers, and might value them less as a result. I had also forgotten that we didn't know that a vote would be enough to break a submission (thought the other thread had already figured that out, mixed up the timelines in my head) so Dodge breaking the submission early was explained, too.

Your post had nothing to do with my unvote, and Dodge is not a solid townread for me, but he provided satisfying explanations for what I thought were contradictions, so my reasons for scumreading him went away. At that point I'd just be keeping my vote on him due to inertia.

[Leonshade]

This doesn't feel right. How do I stop Nero's finishing move?

I don't have the slightest clue right now on how to proceed with drafting but I prefer to draft people that won't or usually aren't known for causing conflict and are easy to read. So far, I'm cool with Tywin and Vifam.

Do you oppose the lynch, or simply Nero's method of doing so? If the former, realize that we only have four days left, so if you want a different lynch, you should be working on getting town consensus, not fighting against it.

[Leonshade]

Yeah, stalling to deadline for the sake of using up the entire deadline is not a good idea. I approve of the 48-hour clock.

[Leonshade]

@Lil Uzi:

I don't see what you're hoping to accomplish. Breaking Nero's move looks like virtue signalling (AKA what Narna said). You doubt he's scum, yet you don't have a strong townread on him (or if you do, based on what?), and you don't have an alternative lynch you're pushing for. You're doing nothing to actually stop the lynch, you're just making a show of your opposition to it. Time for time's sake is just stalling. Real human beings do not produce X amount of discussion per hour like robots, there needs to be something to discuss.

TIME TO PLAY THE GAME!

The opening riffs of

The Game

by Motorhead blasts from the speaker as HHH, wearing blue jeans and a leather jacket, steps out onto the entrance way. In his left hand he carries a bottled water. For a moment, he stands there, basking in the attention. He takes a chug of water and spits it out it a mist of vapor as the song continues to play. He walks slowly down to the ring and then around to the south side that the camera faces. He climbs up onto the apron and turns to the camera. He takes another swig of water, leans back onto the ropes and then lunges forward and sprays the water from his mouth one final time before entering the ring. Once inside the ring he gets a microphone from ring announcer Lillian Garcia. HHH raises the mic to his lips.

I think Penguin flips scum here and my biggest bets for his scumbuddies are Dodge and Lil. The Penguin slot seems to have given up on the game and their reaction to getting wagoned was pretty meh. My initial reaction to their vote on Dodge was that it was a throw away to get their buddy some cred. Lil throwing doubt on the wagon but not pushing anyone else is pretty bad and its just feels like he's trying to shall the day.

Though the "scum wouldn't do that" brigade will be in full swing tomorrow.

I'd lynch him regardless of Penguinos' flip but I still think Penguin is scum.

You prematurely called out my thought process, haha. I still think Lil Uzi doing this is a negative association in regards to him and Penguinos being buddies, but I've learned that scum players can sometimes be more blatant with their actions than I think.

[Leonshade]

ALMOST MAH BOY WELL DONE

Note: Almost wasn't in the scum PT with me and mal, so he was practically working blind.

[Leonshade]

Nah, I claimed that after the game was over. I accused him of being scum first after Grey's final hammer.