Mini Normal 1854: Game Over

[Joshz]

Masons, can you talk at night?

[Nachomamma8]

I'm not saying he swung his vote to 'save fitz', nor did I suggest that.

You said that Creeps was a counterwagon to Fitz and that Ari swung the Creeps momentum. What else were you trying to say other than "Ari saved Fitz"?

[Nachomamma8]

Masons, can you talk at night?

Yes.

[Joshz]

Ok good. So in the event whoever we lynch flips town nacho can give his thoughts to luv on what the following course of action should be. I say this because it's pretty inevitable nacho dies tn.

[Nachomamma8]

My suggestion was that he went from a vote he called scum to a vote he wasn't sure of/didn't have conviction written to yet that had the same amount of 'pressure' with his vote.

The wagon was stagnating pretty harshly. Ari voted a different one in an attempt to get something going. You're right that he wasn't voting his top scumread, but, as people aren't robots, that isn't a scumtell.

[Nachomamma8]

And he also didn't do the groundwork to say "This is scum, not just anti-town". I don't like the idea of lynching someone for anti-town play unless that's literally the only scummy play that exists, so being content with not explaining how it was scum for me isn't enough

Did anyone else on the Creeps wagon lay the groundwork for why he was scum as opposed to just anti-town? If they did, I missed it.

[Nachomamma8]

"Bullshit narrative" where Ari suddenly goes from uptight and having his own scumteam to convinced Fitz is scum and loose about the lynch? He more or less (actually, he DOES) compromise on a Fitz lynch because a 'no lynch would be bad', and keeps his scumteam as Gamma/Creeps/TwoFace. So no, the conclusion wasn't drawn that TwoFace was scum from that, Ari already believed that. What I'm looking at is before/after hammer vote and I DID notice the difference there. That's why it pinged me in the first place.

You're missing the point I'm making; read my response again, please. You're interpreting this post as serious when it wasn't.

[Nachomamma8]

Would you call Ari town and make this case if you didn't know his meta.

I would. Confidence wouldn't be in place to the same degree, but yes, I would.

[Nachomamma8]

It doesn't it just makes non masons giving reads easier to tell if there fake or real I don't see a downside to masons keeping their reasons for themselves when they can give all the reads in the world in the mason thread

LUV can't copy my reads, he can only paraphrase them which can lose meaning/take away from what I'm saying. If there's problems with my reasoning, then only LUV can point them out. If there are stronger portions of my reasoning, then only LUV can point them out. I can't respond to people's concerns around my reasoning if I don't know them, which I wouldn't if I only gave reads in the Mason thread.

Town is stronger when everyone is contributing, and so holding my reads instead of talking about them in the open makes us weaker. If you are worried about people following my reasoning instead of forming their own, challenge them on it. If you're worried about people not contributing because they think they can coast by on my contributions, challenge them on it.

[Nachomamma8]

VOTE: Sonia

Really it's disappointing, but you've been able to provide no decent answers and instead insisted on going for lynch bait.

This AJ push is also similarly bad; he's pushing Sonia (formerly Creeps, the counterwagon to Fitz) because she wasn't okay with the Hiraki wagon at first and then hammered it. Willingness to hammer that wagon shouldn't be a scumtell when AJ was the main alternative to it.

[Aj The Epic]

Nacho if you're going to throw out posturing as a case you might as well just say that you have no chance of seeing me as anything but scum.

[Nachomamma8]

Not sure what you mean by that.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

Disagree with the 2nd part of the 2nd post
Agree with the first
And I'll take your word for the first post

I share the same thoughts on the case as well so I'll unvote for now.

UNVOTE:

Exchange goes together. Gamma advocates the PL on Creeps, Ari shows interest and in fact subsequently votes for creeps on the admitted PL. Both bad by Gamma and Creeps. Major issue is there's two posts between this and his fitz vote. First, one complaining about Creeps posting a huge wall for nothing more than a line response. The second correcting a grammatical mistake in his post brought up by another player.

I don't think that Ari advocating a PL on Creeps is scummy. Gamma saying that Creeps should be PLed for doubting the mason claim was questionable to me (because Creeps wasn't actively pushing the masons, he just said that he didn't trust us yet AND it's not like both of us were going to be alive in LyLo so that shouldn't be a significant worry of Gamma's). Aristo not mentioning why he thought Creeps should just be PLed shouldn't be a dig against Aristo (why would it be?), especially when his other posts in context demonstrate that his attitude towards Creeps has been "his posts suck, let's lynch him" more than "I think Creeps should be policy lynched in order to protect the game!".

I disagree. I think it's perfectly fine to scum read him for that but I'm in agreement that it shouldn't immediately discredit what you pointed out. I'm rarely a fan of policy lynches and Creeps play did not call for one.

I told you is the same as I told y'all or everyone. Okay

I mean, it is...

That's like saying tweeting my political opinions to my followers on Twitter is the same as telling you my political opnions in real life.

You is an acceptable alternative for "y'all" for areas not in the Regional South. Alternatives are "you guys and you people" which are awkward/too informal for many situations; I have no idea how denying grammar rules became a part of your case on Aristo but it's certainly a first for me.

Grammar wasn't my point. I also don't see how in the context people could say he meant everyone, rather than me.

See 1832 for my main point. You can also adamantly state you want something without being aggressive in my opinion.

[Joshz]

luv, do you have thoughts on aj you wanna build? you put him under might be town with me and aj is the lynch myself and (afaik) nacho are currently vying for, so a conftowns thoughts on it are appreciated. anyone else and particularly twoface are free to give their thoughts too.

[xSoniaNevermindx]

can Vedith slot and Twoface do something so I can read them ty

[TwoFace]

I've done plenty to read me on. I'm going to be limited for the next couple of days since I declared v/la earlier. I've tried to look over the thread and based on day 1 I'm thinking maybe I was wrong on creeps but idk.

Ari is who I want to lynch. I'd lynch AJ cause nothing about his attitude reads town.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

I'll have to reread AJ again but I strongly think his attitude is personality and not AI.

[Aristophanes]

Nacho, you know me better than I know myself!

Sonia, you're wrong. Masons should give reads and reasons as much as anyone should.

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: AJ the Epic

[Aj The Epic]

I don't remember you being so hell bent on losing games.

VOTE: Gamma

I think I made it clear that at the very least today should be the groundwork to actually pick out someone who's scum and if you have to, lynch me D4. You die tonight so why do something that the town seems incredibly capable of doing?

[Dierfire]

VOTE COUNT 3.02

Aj The Epic (2): Joshz, Nachomamma8
Gamma Emerald (2): xSoniaNevermindx, Aj The Epic

No Vote (5): Vedith, Gamma Emerald, Aristophanes, TwoFace, Lil Uzi Vert

With 9 players living, 5 votes are required to lynch.

TIMER

(expired on 2016-12-31 18:30:00)

NOTES

Prodding Vedith
TwoFace V/LA until 25 December
Gamma Emerald V/LA until 25 December

[Joshz]

tbh im gonna be REALLY busy until tuesday too, ill still be able to post so i dont need vla but the thread will likely be on a christmasy half pause for the next few days. im sure the rest of you are gonna be at least a little busy with your celebrations too.

[TwoFace]

I don't remember you being so hell bent on losing games.

VOTE: Gamma

I think I made it clear that at the very least today should be the groundwork to actually pick out someone who's scum and if you have to, lynch me D4. You die tonight so why do something that the town seems incredibly capable of doing?

Case on gamma please

[Aj The Epic]

Creeps has done nothing protown as I see it. I can get with this.
VOTE: Creeps20

I think we've talked about 'nothing pro-town' is a short jump to scum, but not bridged.

My reasons for voting Creeps are that if he is scum he is using poor play as a smokescreen, and if he is town he is giving power to scum, especially by distrusting the confirmed masons.

It's not just policy: I believe Creeps has a chance of flipping scum

OK
I'd prefer if you'd stop discrediting it by calling it a policy lynch though.

who else besides creep would you lynch today and why gamma?

p.edit - but that's what it is. voting a person for playing poorly is what policy lynches were invented for

Fitz or Hiraki.
I understand it's a policy lynch, but the way you talk about feels like discrediting.

It's not a PL, totally legit. But you really should stop acknowledging the fact it's a PL. What an odd thing to do. He again was voting Fitz first.

Creeps I'd prefer if you claimed now since we're having trouble assembling votes rn.

This is L-2 with 24+ hours left. There's motivation to move the game, but this isn't the town-driven way to do that.

Wait, Eric was still an option for fitz?
VOTE: Havingfitz
Eric's conftown buddy.

VOTE: Creeps
L-1

...ayy. That's actually disgusting.

[TwoFace]

Where was all this the previous day? You didn't do anything but exsist.