Mini 539: Game over

[Northjayhawk]

random.org = 7

vote: Xtoxm

[Northjayhawk]

I like where my vote is currently at. "They" seemed a bit odd, but not drastically suspicious. However, feeding MafiaSSK an answer does not seem to be helpful to the town.

More than likely it was nothing, but you never know. Perhaps it really was a slip and then when questioned MafiaSSK may have said something really stupid and unbelievable, but that possibility is gone now.

[Northjayhawk]

Ythill: I didnt bother replying to your first mention of three random votes, because it appeared obvious to me that my random vote (#2) had no possibility of suspicion at all. I did not read it as a question towards me, more like a comment or unspoken question directed at the one who cast the third vote. I ALWAYS go to random.org in every game I play (research me if you want) to pick my first vote. Before I actually post the number, I do check to see if it would be a bad random vote (e.g. your random would be the third vote on someone in a 7-player game). In a 12-player game, a 2nd random vote might be mildly valuable to test for an overreaction, but hardly something that needs to be justified in itself.

My 2nd post was not in response to your post at all, I had basically ignored and forgotten about your comment by then. The explanation was necessary because I reaffirmed my random vote as no longer being random along with an explanation, and I would expect everyone to justify their votes and share their thinking whether asked for or not when there is the slightest whiff of suspicion on their target.

Someone who is only reactive to accusations over a few day/night cycles would start to look scummy to me, most town players would actively look for scum at least occasionally without needing to first be asked to explain their votes and suspicions.

As for the reason itself, it should be clear. Whether someone thinks that a question against someone else is a good one or not, I cant think of any value to the town at all (and a lot of potential harm) to answer for or feed them a good answer.

I do have a quick question though. Regarding this list:

My Current Reads

Ask if you want me to elaborate on anything. Obviously I do not have any reads on DS or Natude.

Definitive Town: Ho1den, charter.
Probably Town: ChronX.
Middle of the Road: Mafia (slightly town), Incog, Xtoxm, Justin (slightly scum).
IGMEOY: Apyadg
FoS: North

Why did you feel the need to post "definitive town" and "probably town" lists?

[Northjayhawk]

Ythill, I read everything, but address only things I find relevant, interesting, and can add to or disagree with. I answered all your other questions without having to spell it out, or at least I thought that should have been easily inferred from my answer.

If I had more reasons to vote for Xtoxm, I would have stated them. If someone else was scummier, I would have voted for them. Honestly this early on, we really do not have a lot to go on yet, and I'm still trying to figure out what to make of Justin Playfair's long arguements. I do not agree with many of them against you, particularly his indirect assertion that Mafia's page one suspicion could have been believable, and for him to say that you cant criticise someone who criticised you seemed very silly to me to name just a couple problems I have with his posts. I didnt see much of a fair basis for suspicion, but you already covered nearly every angle before I could get to it.

Now to my question, since you and charter apparently didnt get it. I'm not criticising your use of "definitive town" instead of some other adjective to use to name someone a likely pro-town, I am seriously questioning why in the world you would go out of your way to argue that anyone is innocent at all this early in the game. I believe on day 1 and day 2, if someone makes a list or arguement for who is likeliest to be innocent this early that is anti-town (but not necessarily scummy, could could just be a townie making a bad play).

Suppose every one of us started throwing around fingers of innocence and arguements for town along with FoS and votes? Wouldnt that just be a huge blinking neon sign to the scum saying "lynch these people to win"?

Why did you feel the need to post "definitive town" and "probably town" lists? In what way does this help the town at all in the first day or two?

[Northjayhawk]

Suppose every one of us started throwing around fingers of innocence and arguements for town along with FoS and votes? Wouldnt that just be a huge blinking neon sign to the scum saying "lynch these people to win"?

Looks like I didnt read this through enough times before posting. Thats obviously supposed to be "kill these people to win".

[Northjayhawk]

Suppose every one of us started throwing around fingers of innocence and arguements for town along with FoS and votes? Wouldnt that just be a huge blinking neon sign to the scum saying "lynch these people to win"?

You expect everyone to infer your answers to direct questions by the fact that you didn’t answer them, but then doubt that the scum in this game could infer who I think is town from a suspicion list that names only scum. So you appear to believe two opposite things, demonstrating that you are either daft (which I doubt) or are choosing words to serve ulterior motives rather than the truth.

To your first sentance, yes absolutely I do doubt the scum could infer your most innocent vs just uncertainty in the middle. When I think someone is likely town, I keep that information to myself the first day or two until we have enough evidence based on past votes and behavior to really know what we are doing. Even then, I would hesitate to call someone innocent for fear of telling the scum who they should kill, and would focus more on arguing for a lynch elsewhere.

I do NOT expect the scum to infer your most innocent out of the list of 8 or so people you dont name as suspicious, how could they presume otherwise? If you name 3 or 4 people as suspicious, the people you dont name are in some gray unknown middle which could easily receive your full attention later, but if everyone comes to an agreement as to who is most innocent, then obviously that would be a great kill target for the mafia. Why? Because assuming the scum doesnt identify a power role, their best target would likely be the ones who are least likely to be lynched. Telling them that information point-blank without making the scum guess at it seems extremely foolish to me.

I stand by my statement, what you are doing with your innocent list is very anti-town and either indicates scumminess or just a very bad play by you. (I had presumed the latter, but since you actually defend the practice of identifying innocent people in the first day, I have to reconsider) Whatever small benefit we may gain from knowing who everyone thinks is most innocent is dwarfed by the huge strategic sacrifice we would make to the scum. I cant believe you dont see this the same way I do.

Ythill, I read everything, but address only things I find relevant, interesting, and can add to or disagree with... Honestly this early on, we really do not have a lot to go on yet...

Digging yourself deeper here. I’ve read both of your other games. I’ve seen you post more earlier and with much less to go on. Why the lie about your playstyle? Note that since your other games are ongoing, it is not appropriate for us to argue the specifics of them, which is why I’m being vague. Anyone who is curious can go read for themselves.

At this juncture, I don’t see you clearing yourself with an argument. We should probably move on to other topics. As I’ve said, I see no reason to convince others of your scumminess at this point. We still have lots of information to gather before anything like a lynch, and that means there’s still time for you to start playing like town.

I am not claiming lack of time to post and participate, now you are trying to place something into my words that I did not type. Obviously in my other games I did find something interesting to add to the conversation. In this game, a lot of what I saw was already explored by others, and it would hardly be useful if I just posted a bunch of "me to's". (which I arguably already did on your comments vs Justin Playfair, but that huge back-and-forth argument practically demanded some kind of comment).

At this point, I have to

unvote, vote: Ythill

. This is not an OMGUS, because if you cant understand why feeding the scum our most innocent lists this early in the game is bad for the town, you are either a scum trying to convince the rest of the town to follow a very bad strategy, or you are a townie playing poorly enough to lead us off a cliff if others follow.

[Northjayhawk]

Now to my question, since you and charter apparently didnt get it.

What didn't I get? I was just asking ythill how he figured so soon that ho1den and myself were townies.

It was a comment on your post saying that my earlier post was pointless. (I assumed you referred to my question on why Ythill would post his most innocent list) If you were referring to something else, I apologize for the misunderstanding.

[Northjayhawk]

Whatever small benefit we may gain from knowing who everyone thinks is most innocent is dwarfed by the huge strategic sacrifice we would make to the scum. I cant believe you dont see this the same way I do.

I think you are way off on the strategy point. I'm also not going to argue theory, because it distracts from the game. Read some games, note how many good scumhunters give innocent reads D1, and then find a real reason to vote me.

You're playing different here than you do in your other games, and demonstrate a lack of scum strategy knowledge. First game as a mobster, huh?

Either way, it is good that you are posting more, even if it is only reactive to accusations. I really wish you would actively look for scum at least occasionally.

Now you've just descended into the pit of flat-out lying. I do not reveal my most-innocent suspicions here or elsewhere early in any game. I dont care who you have seen post most-innocent lists or how often, it is retardedly stupid strategy. I am very comfortable with my vote at this time.

[Northjayhawk]

I'll also note that you failed to explain why your action is not anti-town after I explained why it is. You surrender too much valuable information to the scum. Your answer essentially was: "Well, I read about how a few other people elsewhere posted innocent lists on day 1, so I guess it must be good strategy", which obviously is not an answer at all.

[Northjayhawk]

I am not claiming lack of time to post and participate, now you are trying to place something into my words that I did not type.

I didn't say anything about you claiming that. Does anyone else think I even

might

have meant that? Read what you quoted again. You made a claim about your tendancies as a player and, based on a read of your other games, that claim was false.

I'm assuming you misread my accusation.

You left your accusation vague, and forced me to guess at what you meant. The couple sentances following what you quoted answered your question. I'm not sure if you just stopped reading to post or just skimmed right over it.

I would also think that a townie would make their questions clear, while a scum would favor vague questions asking many possible things, ready to come back with a "gotcha" to say you obviously asked B when someone answered A, or that you obviously asked A when someone answered B.[/sup]

[Northjayhawk]

You know what, forget it.

I've played for years elsewhere where everyone was civil and didnt easily throw around false allegations of "lying" with no evidence whatsoever. I was fine until ythill said I was "lying" about my playstyle, which was just crap. I explained why he was wrong. I posted accusations early elsewhere because I found something interesting and original early. Here, I didnt really see anything original that someone else hadnt already spotted and talked about until ythill's very ill-advised innocent lists, but he still insists I'm a lier. There is very little good, calm, rational thought going around, just a little of convoluted idiocy.

I resign, and am leaving all games on this board.

Mod, replace me.