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Post Post #2225 (ISO) » Sun Dec 04, 2016 6:22 am

Post by Showtime »

In post 2224, Randomnamechange wrote:
In post 2207, Dwlee99 wrote:ADC teamfighting at high levels is difficult af
adc teamfighting at low levels is fairly hard. at silver people have figured out how to focus the adc but not to protect them. You basically have to do nothing but kite until someone ccs their divers ehich is usually 4 or 5 seconds.
Ehhhhh. I mean, I'm sure it's rough for Silver AD players, but that's why they're Silver.

For anyone higher than Silver, Silver teamfights are incredibly easy, whatever role you're in. They mostly just consist of people aping out and walking towards the enemy backline. Sometimes they'll Flash, or have a gapcloser, but that's really all it is. Once you recognize that this is what's happening, it's incredibly easy to just keep walking backwards and let them kill themselves walking through your constant barrage of attacks. This applies for AD players as much as anyone else - more so, I'd say, in fact, since kiting is the most absolutely fundamental skill to AD carries (other than CSing, obviously) and you really should be able to kite backwards without thinking about it.

Now, there are
other
problems that AD carry players have in Silver - mostly to do with no one knowing when or how to initiate a teamfight, or how to deal with snowballing assassins - but I wouldn't say teamfighting is particularly difficult there.

I should also mention: my most frequent duo partner is a Plat II AD carry main. His advice: Mercurial Scimitar is your best friend. He gets it as his third item on almost every ADC.

Now, whether or not that's particularly great advice for actual high-level play in, say, Diamond I, I couldn't tell you. Haven't been there. But it seems to work out pretty well down here in the trenches.
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Post Post #2226 (ISO) » Sun Dec 04, 2016 6:40 am

Post by Dwlee99 »

In post 2224, Randomnamechange wrote:
In post 2207, Dwlee99 wrote:ADC teamfighting at high levels is difficult af
adc teamfighting at low levels is fairly hard. at silver people have figured out how to focus the adc but not to protect them. You basically have to do nothing but kite until someone ccs their divers ehich is usually 4 or 5 seconds.
If you're positioning properly for the fight you should have no problem, really. The divers, assassins, etc. are all teamfighting incorrectly anyways.
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Post Post #2227 (ISO) » Sun Dec 04, 2016 10:13 am

Post by Randomnamechange »

Yeah my positioning still isn't great (I am a silver adc).
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Post Post #2228 (ISO) » Sun Dec 04, 2016 10:45 am

Post by mykonian »

In post 2224, Randomnamechange wrote:adc teamfighting at low levels is fairly hard. at silver people have figured out how to focus the adc but not to protect them. You basically have to do nothing but kite until someone ccs their divers ehich is usually 4 or 5 seconds.
Well, you can't kite. Neither can I. There's this wonderful command called "attack-move", which when alternated with moving normally could help you position during the fight much more easily and avoid silly deaths by walking on top of your assaillant. Many years of lol and several attempts have not managed to get that in my fingers, then again, I don't see all that many opponents use it. If you are serious about adc'ing though, that's probably something you want to pick up.

Then again, the problem I read here is that you are worried that you don't do enough. You are a carry, it's
fine
to wait out threats. If you are the first or second in, you are in too soon. Get to a spot where you can shoot safely, then fire away, your single target damage is unmatched to the point where you can spend 4 or 5 seconds just getting the occasional bullet in on your closest assailant without getting the most of your attackspeed and still have a damage chart that will tell you you did your part. And it's silver, they say they focus the adc. They mostly focus the thing that is closest that they can hit. If you are in 3rd/4th, half the enemy team is too busy to notice you the first second you shoot them. It's fine to be patient.
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Post Post #2229 (ISO) » Sun Dec 04, 2016 10:57 am

Post by Showtime »

In post 2228, mykonian wrote:You are a carry, it's
fine
to wait out threats. If you are the first or second in, you are in too soon. Get to a spot where you can shoot safely, then fire away, your single target damage is unmatched to the point where you can spend 4 or 5 seconds just getting the occasional bullet in on your closest assailant without getting the most of your attackspeed and still have a damage chart that will tell you you did your part. And it's silver, they say they focus the adc. They mostly focus the thing that is closest that they can hit. If you are in 3rd/4th, half the enemy team is too busy to notice you the first second you shoot them. It's fine to be patient.
This is very true.

The AD carry's job is not to be the first into the fight. It is also not to be the one who runs down the enemy carries. It is just to stay alive and keep autoattacking. You are about sustained damage, not picks.

In Silver, your team will whine about you attacking the tank and screech about "FOCUS ADC NOOB".

Your team is wrong.

So long as you are safe and autoattacking, you are doing your job. You do not have to run past the Renekton in your face to throw one auto at the Jinx on the other end of the river.

Now, there are times when you
can
do that, but that gets into tracking cooldowns and everything, and you really don't need to worry about that at a Silver level. For now, just focus on staying alive, but autoing as much as you can while staying safe. This very basic mechanical skill is enough to get you through Silver and up to, I'd say, somewhere around Gold I.
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Post Post #2230 (ISO) » Sun Dec 04, 2016 11:13 am

Post by Psyche »

i don't really think adcing is harder or easier than any other role when it comes to making your team win, but i can't think of a way to prove (or disprove) it

what would it look like if a role were harder than the others?
if it were really hard to be effective as an adc, maybe on average adc main winrates would vary less from 50% than the winrates of other role mains when they have equivalent levels of experience?
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Post Post #2231 (ISO) » Sun Dec 04, 2016 11:33 am

Post by Showtime »

In post 2230, Psyche wrote:what would it look like if a role were harder than the others?
Less ability to carry means fewer games won.

At anything but the highest ELO, this would probably be indistinguishable from statistical noise. At the very highest levels, though - Challenger, and maybe Master - you would see more players attaining that rank who mained strong roles and fewer players that mained weak ones.

If I remember correctly, the two roles that have the most representation in Challenger are AD carry and jungle, while support has the least - but it's been a while since I last checked, and it's a pain in the ass to do so. I don't think anyone actually maintains a list of how many people main each role in Challenger, so I just ended up trawling LOLking and writing it all down by hand. Wasn't that massive of a difference anyway, so it may also come down to the fact that there are just fewer support mains than AD carry mains.
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Post Post #2232 (ISO) » Sun Dec 04, 2016 11:41 am

Post by Showtime »

A brief trawl of the leaderboards indicates that the top fifty or so Challenger spots on the North American servers are pretty much top > jungle > AD carry > support = mid.

Granted, this is a very small sample, and the numbers will probably shift around if you were to look through all Challenger spots across all servers. But that's a very rough breakdown of the system as it stands at the moment.

It's also worth noting that, while there are more top laners than junglers there, the junglers tended to have the higher spots - but, again, small sample size.
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Post Post #2233 (ISO) » Sun Dec 04, 2016 11:42 am

Post by Psyche »

not really convinced by that reasoning
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Post Post #2234 (ISO) » Sun Dec 04, 2016 11:52 am

Post by Showtime »

In post 2233, Psyche wrote:not really convinced by that reasoning
By what reasoning? That roles that can more easily carry will win more games, and thus get higher on the leaderboards, as player skill increases?
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Post Post #2235 (ISO) » Sun Dec 04, 2016 12:04 pm

Post by Psyche »

i feel like focusing on the roles of the top challenger players only illuminates their skill ceilings not necessarily how easy it is to be effective with those roles - which sounds a lot like the meaning of skill floor?
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Post Post #2236 (ISO) » Sun Dec 04, 2016 12:13 pm

Post by Psyche »

if i have this right, skill ceiling is the theoretical point where a player has reached perfection within the constraints of the game world
your method would tell us about the success of play
at
the skill ceiling for each role

but it sounds like we're interested in identifying the skill floor for each role - the minimum amount of skill required to play each role effectively
what does a skill floor look like statistically? is it the skills / level of experience / etc required to not drag down a team by merely existing on it?

but then again, this might not be the real question we care about in the first place
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Post Post #2237 (ISO) » Sun Dec 04, 2016 12:17 pm

Post by Showtime »

In post 2235, Psyche wrote:i feel like focusing on the roles of the top challenger players only illuminates their skill ceilings not necessarily how easy it is to be effective with those roles - which sounds a lot like the meaning of skill floor?
Ah. We're asking two different questions.

I'm talking specifically about the skill ceiling for a given role, yes. The higher the skill ceiling, the more effective that role can be if you're good at it. If a certain role has a higher skill ceiling than others, then it's better able to carry assuming that all roles are played to their maximum potential. It would win more games at the highest levels of play, since, as the role with the highest potential, it would be the determining factor in more games than other roles. It would therefore occupy more spaces in the Challenger ladder, like I said.

On the other hand, if a certain role has a higher skill
floor
, like you said, it would... honestly be extremely hard to tell. Down in the levels of play where skill floors matter, players are so universally terrible that you can't really distinguish between what losses are due to "this role is hard" rather than "this player is just bad".
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Post Post #2238 (ISO) » Sun Dec 04, 2016 12:29 pm

Post by Psyche »

i feel like you're misdefining skill ceiling a little too
the assumption that other roles are played to their maximum potential isn't really part of the concept
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Post Post #2239 (ISO) » Sun Dec 04, 2016 12:31 pm

Post by Psyche »

yah
one other problem strongly limiting research is that highly skilled players play with totally different people than less skilled players
it might be better to ask questions about role efficacy/easiness for each tier rather than overall
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Post Post #2240 (ISO) » Sun Dec 04, 2016 12:33 pm

Post by KaleiÐoscøpe »

Rammus jungle 4/0/11 is A-. WTF rito
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Post Post #2241 (ISO) » Sun Dec 04, 2016 12:34 pm

Post by zoraster »

I queued mid/top. Saw top was first pick and support second. So I assumed I was mid.

And that's how I ended up Jungle Ziggs.
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Post Post #2242 (ISO) » Sun Dec 04, 2016 12:47 pm

Post by Showtime »

In post 2238, Psyche wrote:i feel like you're misdefining skill ceiling a little too
the assumption that other roles are played to their maximum potential isn't really part of the concept
I'm aware. I didn't say that it was. My point is that, at higher levels of play - the upper end of Challenger, say - you can safely assume that they will be. That's why they're in Challenger.

Which means that, again, the role with the highest skill ceiling - that is, the role with the most impact when played to its maximum potential - will be the determining factor in more games, and thus win more, and thus turn up more consistently on the ladder.

It's not the
definition
of skill ceiling. It's just a logical consequence of it.

Of course, this is a deliberate simplification, and there are other matters to consider, primarily when it comes to metagame. Thresh has a much higher skill ceiling than Alistar, for example, but there are times when Alistar is a more consistently powerful support pick than Thresh because of the meta. The carry potential of various roles can be expected to shift as the metagame does; sometimes top lane is a carry position, and other times it's a tankfest. Sometimes mid is utility-focused and sometimes mid is assassin-focused. And so on.

That's just really more detail than I have the time or inclination to go into when trawling the leaderboards, is all. So I gave the simple explanation.
In post 2239, Psyche wrote:yah
one other problem strongly limiting research is that highly skilled players play with totally different people than less skilled players
it might be better to ask questions about role efficacy/easiness for each tier rather than overall
Generally, I'd say that, if you're looking to carry in low-level games, go top, AD carry, or jungle, in that order. And preferably an AD damage dealer or bruiser.

Top is an island. If you work on your mechanical skill, you can basically just dumpster your opponent in the Rage In The Cage matchup, snowball the lane, and shove down towers all day. AD carry is the same thing, but slightly more team-dependent. Jungle is still more team-dependent, but can work the same way. Alternately, if you're absolutely determined not to do the carrying yourself, jungle has access to a lot of tanks or utility champions who can still absolutely wreck house in teamfights (hello, Ivern).

Mid and support tend to be more difficult to win low-level games with. Support isn't strictly harder than the other roles, but it does require an entirely different skillset and frame of mind to play effectively. Mid, meanwhile, is usually AP, and just doesn't push all that hard with most champions.

And that's the main thing. In low-level solo queue, it really doesn't matter what role you're in so long as you can push towers. Pushing wins games, and at that level, nobody really knows how to stop you from doing it. If you can reliably get two or three kills up and then just start knocking down towers, no one's really going to stop you.
In post 2240, KaleiÐoscøpe wrote:Rammus jungle 4/0/11 is A-. WTF rito
Post-game ranking is pretty heavily weighted by farm. Gank-heavy junglers tend to get lower scores in that regard.

It's weird, but if I remember correctly, Riot has said that they're looking at ways to address this. Same thing for supports.

Now, whether or not they actually will, and whether or not it will actually work if they do, is another question entirely. But there you go.
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Post Post #2243 (ISO) » Sun Dec 04, 2016 1:01 pm

Post by Psyche »

recent claims about the adc role itt:
1. it's more frustrating than other roles
2. it's easier
3. it's high skill position
4. it's a low skill position
5. it's particularly difficult to master
6. it's hard to impact a game as an adc
7. an adc has a greater ability to make the most positive impact on a team's chances for success AS COMPARED to the replacement level player it's compared to

I think these can be divided into a few sorts of questions. One is about how hard it is to reach the skill ceiling for the champion, another is about how hard it is to reach the skill floor for that champion, another is about whether an ADC's skill even matters as much with respect to actually winning.


As for skill floor, maybe one could identify the level of experience where win rate within a role is 50% or greater - i.e., when one's presence in a game with that role and with their amount of experience in said role doesn't actively drag their team down.
Skill ceiling, though? You could pick a peak level of experience that enough people within a tier have achieved in each role, operationally define that as the skill ceiling within said tier, and then measure the average win rate for each role at this ceiling, but it would probably miss what we mean by the idea.


The idea of role impact in a game seems the most concrete and attractive to me. Focusing on particular divisions (eg "Gold"), one can take a random sample of games and collect the experience each player has with their champs or roles, as well as who won or lost. Experience isn't a perfect measure of role mastery, but it's probably our best accessible tracker thereof, besides maybe where someone is in a division. You can ask, "In which role does experience correlate the most with winning for this particular tier?" There are a few ways to do this with the data obtained: you can focus on experience with particular adcs or on experience with the adc role in general or on the
difference
in experience between winning ADCs and the ADCs they defeated.

If an ADC's skill or their decisions matter in the average league game within a tier, then you'll find a significant positive correlation between the [extra] experience an ADC has in that role and how often they win that exceeds the same correlation for other roles in that tier. It could be that other factors would explain the lack of a correlation, but this sort of experiment would at least rule out some positions that explicitly predict no correlation.
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Post Post #2244 (ISO) » Sun Dec 04, 2016 6:22 pm

Post by Ankamius »

To be fair, I complained about the role being frustrating mainly because my champion has been a dumpster for a couple months now.
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Post Post #2245 (ISO) » Mon Dec 05, 2016 4:37 am

Post by Showtime »

A lot of people complain about their favorite roles being frustrating. Hell, I complain about jungle being frustrating sometimes because, in some games, your lanes just get completely dumpstered. All of them. Forever. And there's really nothing you can do to salvage the game when your lanes are 0/4 across the board before fifteen minutes, no matter how many ganks you get off or how hard you powerfarm.

ADCs do tend to say that they're frustrated a little more than other roles, but I think that's due to a combination of the role being kind of binary by design and the low-level players not really being good at executing it.

AD carries are, by design, vulnerable if they get caught. If someone gets close to them, they are in danger; if someone gets
on top
of them, they're probably going to have to Flash at minimum, and are more likely just dead outright. This means positioning is key. If you have good positioning, you're going to enjoy playing AD carry. If you don't... well, suddenly
everyone on the enemy team
can get on top of you, consistently and repeatedly, and you're going to get frustrated.

Since low-level players have bad positioning almost by definition, this means that a lot of low-level AD carry players are going to get very frustrated very often. This is multiplied by the fact that low-level AD carry players also don't really understand the concept of peel, and tend to blame their teams for them simply getting caught out. Granted, there
are
times when your team should peel for you and doesn't (they're low-level too), but it's much more often, at Silver and below, just a case of you being in a bad spot.

So... yeah. Sort of an inherently frustrating role, for low-level players. The role's primary weakness is that it relies on good positioning and kiting to stay alive, which low-level players can't do. Meanwhile, champions like Darius and Olaf
thrive
and are much less frustrating at low levels, because their primary weaknesses generally revolve around getting kited, which no one knows how to do.
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Post Post #2246 (ISO) » Mon Dec 05, 2016 5:38 am

Post by inte »

In post 2245, Showtime wrote:A lot of people complain about their favorite roles being frustrating. Hell, I complain about jungle being frustrating sometimes because, in some games, your lanes just get completely dumpstered. All of them. Forever. And there's really nothing you can do to salvage the game when your lanes are 0/4 across the board before fifteen minutes, no matter how many ganks you get off or how hard you powerfarm.
i get flamed for lanes getting fucked as a jungler probably 25% of the time in high plat

i should just play fucking yi or something and powerfarm while spam pinging people. at least i wouldn't have the stress of explaining to people that i can't do shit if they die every 2 mins
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Post Post #2247 (ISO) » Mon Dec 05, 2016 5:45 am

Post by Ankamius »

In post 2245, Showtime wrote:ADCs do tend to say that they're frustrated a little more than other roles, but I think that's due to a combination of the role being kind of binary by design and the low-level players not really being good at executing it.
My main ADC is a champion that is easily camped, needs time to scale, and relies on peel from the team in a lot of games. That I can handle because I've been used to those conditions for years.

What I can't handle is the fact that the same champion is currently not better than most other late-game scaling ADCs despite having a far worse early/mid-game and current inability to snowball because of only having really awful build paths.
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Post Post #2248 (ISO) » Mon Dec 05, 2016 6:00 am

Post by Showtime »

In post 2246, inte wrote:
In post 2245, Showtime wrote:A lot of people complain about their favorite roles being frustrating. Hell, I complain about jungle being frustrating sometimes because, in some games, your lanes just get completely dumpstered. All of them. Forever. And there's really nothing you can do to salvage the game when your lanes are 0/4 across the board before fifteen minutes, no matter how many ganks you get off or how hard you powerfarm.
i get flamed for lanes getting fucked as a jungler probably 25% of the time in high plat

i should just play fucking yi or something and powerfarm while spam pinging people. at least i wouldn't have the stress of explaining to people that i can't do shit if they die every 2 mins
> tfw starting your initial clear and your top lane dies before you've taken your first buff
> tfw they tp back to lane and immediately die again
> tfw they flame you for writing their lane off as lost when they die a third time just as you finish your initial clear

p much why i have this avatar really

jungle flashbacks

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Post Post #2249 (ISO) » Mon Dec 05, 2016 6:47 am

Post by mykonian »

In post 2244, Ankamius wrote:To be fair, I complained about the role being frustrating mainly because my champion has been a dumpster for a couple months now.
Also you've played the role for years and see different opportunities/obstacles for it. Most of the rest of us haven't gone that deep into being an adc.
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