Mini Normal 1854: Game Over

[Hiraki]

site meta is irrelevant, both sides have equally fair points

i usually don't like to focus on softcrumbs on d1 - more of a useful tool on d4 if ari claims VT and is like "just a prank bro, i was deflecting :):):):):)"

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?tit ... sane_Tells
Tell #1

these are pretty insane wink wink nudge nudge get the hint

TVD - do your page 2 questions imply that your page 1 vote was somewhat serious

you get much better by the end of page 2 but the stuff you say at the top is pretty nonsensical but since we're on page 3 i think we can just pretend that never happened

[Hiraki]

Its wifom.
Still a bad post, either way.
Flagging it as anti town for now.

????????

[Hiraki]

I have a feeling he's an alt and is afraid to give himself away because of the reputation of his old account.

(maybe it's not important)

disclaimer: i honestly know nothing

[Hiraki]

im sorry i don't want to suck your ego off about your softcrumb that's stupid

i can't wait to hear in day 3 that it was just a prank bro ))))))))))))))))

[Hiraki]

i literally said that in my first post

[Hiraki]

meta doesn't help that much, just to amplify twoface's post and fj's point

not anti-town but i won't take part in that conversation - rather find tangible tells than intangible ones

[Hiraki]

unvote, vote: lil uzi vert

[Hiraki]

1) talking all of this shit that's getting us just about nowhere

2) you're suspicious of a question

3) "I can see newb town" -> "TVD might be the optimal play for today"

it reeks of opportunity

[Hiraki]

What makes you say this?

hey is tvd someone that's on the site

a) yes

OK so then let's look at his meta

wow we're at page 4-5 so this really doesn't mean anything

b) no

kk

we literally gain nothing

I was too, I think many were

zzz

Not mutually exclusive

can you re-read this? just once or twice?

What's wrong with being suspicious of a question?

please tell me what scum would gain for asking that question rather than town

it's literally nothing

Not at the time, why? I don't see how they're connected.

quite honestly don't remember but i'm sure someone will remind me

i think it was something already resolved by now

Thank's for your offer, but no.

@

Hiraki:

I'm curious as what else you or Ted want me to talk about while we are waiting for 4 replacements.

What's wrong with being suspicious of a question?

Don't get your last point. Especially after I said how I'm looking forward to others thoughts on the matter. If I was opportunistic like you seem to be implying, I would have voted for TVD already.

We don't need a full game to start scum hunting. It is just less efficient.

At least I find it that way

My first post

one of my favorite posts all game bud

you have at least 50+ games from me on my meta that you can look at - can you pinpoint my alignment lil uzi?????

[Hiraki]

TVD 99 is fantastic and solid 100% he is town for the moment

I was simply just trying to get a better understanding of TVD's play since I assumed he was an alt. You still aren't suggesting other topics to talk about by the way.

yeah i forgot that it's

A) page 4

B) we were already on a discussion about ari being a little dick

i'm sorry i haven't contributed to making as much of a mess as you have

I could see scum easily asking that question in attempt to look like they're trying to understand thought processes and motive.

ok well we disagree and i at least have arguments for it rather than just a statement of

feeling

You seem to be missing that and I'm not sure why.

kk so at the end of this - let's just pretend - TVD comes out and says he's aero, like I said before

I also have a meta of at least 50+ games - have you been reading my past games to try and figure me out more?

#91 and #91

smugface

VOTE: Lil Uzi Vert

Best bet for me ...

Why is Uzi scum?

Reading through the chat and based on my gut, I have a feeling its Uzi ... Although I have no evidence to support it ...

My next bet on Mafia would be Gamma and Twizted(you)

So Gamma is scum, and I'm scum bussing him on d1 for... what reason, exactly?

What does d1 mean ? Sorry for not knowing

if you haven't already, please join the newbie queue - not trying to be an asshole, just truth

I am not a very good team player because my style is completely different from the others .... My job is to make my alignment win ... I'll do that even if I have to deceive my own alignment ... And I'm out .. Hope the KP comes soon

can't wait to blindly follow nonsense

Eric is VI - the fact that you guys are voting him after he asked what "D1" is, is horrible. TwiszTed's content on pages 4-6 is really not a great start. TwoFace is on the town pile.

I hope Creeps posts a little more because that was such a slide in there. Remember before when I said the same thing about you saying nothing and you were like but we're waiting on 4 replacements. How many are we waiting on now?

Question: Can we role claim ?

I haven't read anything but I hope to god you all unvote after this post - if this is just an alt acting stupid, then I don't mind losing but that just means the alt is garbage too tho

Eric is an actual newb - can we not worry about him today? i'm here to catch scum, i can't tell if eric is yet tho

Explaining your reads gives the town an understanding of what you're thinking and will help players decide if they want to follow you or not. Why does it appear like you're denying the town this information? How does not helping others see what you're seeing a town mindset? If the rest of your reads are gut, you can at least point us to what's giving you that feeling.

this reads so shallow and just hoping on so hard

creeps and lil uzi for scum rn - thanks for confirming the read

I feel like there's a weird reason why everyone is sort of ignoring this. And I really need to emphasize why this post is horrible. Everyone else voting for Eric is doing so under the impression of just gut or withholding information. Which I don't really agree with but that's OK - I can't agree with the above logic for two reasons:

1) There's a question about Eric's reads...in the same post that he votes Eric - that's clearly voting without all of the information in mind. With the other cases, the other people didn't care about the reads. Why would his reads have any affect on your vote? It's literally the most useless question I can think of if you're going to vote him in the SAME post.

2) There's a clear misunderstanding that if you're not following /my/ mindset, you're not on /my/ team. I've seen this being used in a scumrole rather than a townrole much more often than not. Less persuasive than the first point, I know, but it still fits for me.

This is my first time playing here, do you really think a mod would make a newbie here a scum?

Mod: I understand this is a very stupid question but can you just put this to rest? Were the roles distributed randomly?

i'm not even doing that to try and make you look bad, just to prove you wrong
if someone has like a gun or something and is town and isn't sure who to shoot, i've got your guy right here
hey let's try this out for size, might work

pupper - kill eric

post-edit: can we stop with the clear and obvious pressure vote? if any of you actually think eric is scum within reason, i have big problems with that

[Hiraki]

This is disappointing ... None of you are talking lol

this is actually pretty insulting

[Hiraki]

hey let's try this out for size, might work
pupper - kill eric

just realized this is a reference to another ongoing game made by accident - sorry, just got games confused for a moment

[Hiraki]

It looks like he has experience playing mafia elsewhere which might make him naive to some of the waystreet of this site.

is that also why he is being unreasonably trollish in making rational statements? i know that i was such a cool person when i played my own way, gloated about it, and then proceeded to just run the game into the ground

hey wait that never happened because this kind of play is pretty stupid - you could even say idiotic

the d1 stuff was more of a "hey this should be a hint"

if i played like this, i can tell you with ease that i'd be blacklisted much more than i currently am

ty mod

[Hiraki]

Well, it's all dependent on the environment of Forum Mafia he's experienced. He says he's done FM for 7 years.

It's a personal experience that my first game offsite, I understood most terminologies but only because the IC there explained the terminology decently enough, and a stickied post explaining abbreviations was enough for me to understand abbreviations.

have you heard of the concept of lying to make yourself look better

i don't think the mod's second comment was toward me (but if it was, i'm sorry??) and i don't want to be an asshole but there is a clear difference between the ability that he says he's at vs the ability that he is at

there's nothing wrong with the later, other than it being very annoying and detrimental - no matter what eric's alignment is

like I understand that there

might

be a difference between where he plays and where we play but keep the following in mind:
1) eric wasn't able to deduce what D1 on page 7 of a thread was
2) eric doesn't know if we should or shouldn't role claim on day 1
2a) eric isn't very confident in his own logic that he doesn't know if this is a good or bad idea
3)

His analysis seems off, his analysis is not backed with proof ...

on a vote that is done by

GUT

4) eric has also basically trolled a bit and not really in a funny way, as i noted

i'm not trying to be offensive or mean - it's plainly the truth that he's not an experienced player in this sort of game and should not be taken as one

if he's faking it, like i noted before, that's just stupid and i'll honestly avoid him because it's just stupid play to get the town confused and drained (as is what is happening right now)

i would like to get past this and lynch scum tho - i hope you all will agree

[Hiraki]

i don't think you're addressing anything to me but I know I never said the last part so those quotes might need fixing because i get what you're saying but not necessarily to whom - talking about that mid post

[Hiraki]

remember when i thought you were really annoying for that stupid softclaim in the beginning ari?

im glad you took a little break and saw the light

[Hiraki]

I honestly don't know if this is sarcasm or not, but thanks! (I think)

its good haha

sorry if i was too cheeky

[Hiraki]

Gamma actually explained what I meant quite well. Not sure how you guys are misunderstanding anything but it happens I guess.

im glad you took someone else's response for your own

[Hiraki]

Gamma actually explained what I meant quite well. Not sure how you guys are misunderstanding anything but it happens I guess.

im glad you took someone else's response for your own

Or I'm glad he can read. Reading is fundamentally my friend.

thank you for insulting my reading when i'm clearly the only one having this problem

btw what's the votecount again?

OK
So the "newbies aren't scum" thing makes slight sense

is this that explanation you were talking about? or are you talking about not mutually exclusive

because i don't think you want to say that

your entire contributions to this game have been
1)talking about finding someone's meta because they're not on this website
2)talking about this new thing with eric

there is a basic lack of scumhunting and a complete tunnel on easy targets - go ahead, look at lil uzi's ISO

here is who he hasn't talked about that is in this game:
1) TwoFace
2) FrankJaeger
3) Creeps (tbf, there's not much to talk about here)
4) havingfitz (outside of RVS)
5) misatange

here's why the others don't make the cut:
1) TwisTed - very minor talk with me about him in the beginning (tbf, not very talkative either which is why he's down here)
2) me - obv
3) gamma - obv
4) Ari - honestly just to current discussion
5) TVD - earlier in the day play
6) eric - obv
7) io (tbf, being replaced - didn't even check)

now here's where I really need to get this firm in everyone's head -

compromising of the current ISO - here are Lil Uzi's reads, in quote form. read means that lil uzi says scum, town, or null or some form - not informational stuff that shows literally nothing (no this is not cntrl + F) :

I could see scum easily asking that question in attempt to look like they're trying to understand thought processes and motive.

I'm not scum reading anyone at the moment.

I don't have any other reason at the moment to believe you'll flip scum other than your question about RVS. I was just explaining what I meant by optimal play.

I wasn't calling you scum. Reread my explantation on what I meant on optimal play.

Now as far as your reads, I do agree with you on Ted despite my dislike of his vote on you. He seems to be all about business and I think he's doing that in his own way here based on his interactions on Gamma.

please note that agreement shows a town read as per 115

there is a technical scum read in eric but i've already discussed on how that's bullshit - there's not even a quote that I can say that says that lil thinks eric is scum because he's asking him questions

lil's legitimate scumread of eric can only be deriven from QUESTIONS to him

so in summary here is why I am voting lil:

1) useless discussion that is clearly trying to sound townie
2) votes that are bw votes for sure
3) asking questions with literally no follow-up - seriously, he's asking more people for their reads then he himself has given

[Hiraki]

I fucking read your posts just fine buddy thanks for ignoring my points and just leaving everything else to how you play - I'm not moving my vote today

[Hiraki]

Keep ignoring my points, bud

[Hiraki]

v ironic

[Hiraki]

this is where you can try and sell me on misa again

i guess

post edit - you're not wrong creeps but there is something to be said where you have 4 posts and 2 of them are votes on the hottest bandwagons

mind giving a little more?

[Hiraki]

you're doing a very good job of making me not care about you until day 2

what happens during day 2?

[Hiraki]

would like opinions on the above

[Hiraki]

im not switching to you today - i think that's sort of dumb but i think that you might flip tomorrow if you don't have the goods cha feel

[Hiraki]

we don't agree with that statement

[Hiraki]

unvote

Will think about this later

[Hiraki]

misa - can you convince me on eric?

[Hiraki]

havingfitz im v disappointed that you could give eric a scum lean

i thought you would agree with my mindset

[Hiraki]

im considering it, i haven't been 100% satisfied with the content i've been receiving but I also have a personal bias at havingfitz due to the margins he puts in every post (no offense)

@gamma - i don't think it's as bad as every other person is saying here but you could've waited, maybe have a breadcrumb ready in the early early game? could be as simple as capitalization in first few posts - no one has enough time to look for those.

[Hiraki]

And your Post 331 seems to hint at you at least being open to considering that Eric could be scum.

moreso just trying to stir discussion, i won't vote eric this game

your analysis is almost spot on except that I also think that eric is lying from a town position - it's a radical theory but it's a theory. how do you feel about that aspect?

[Hiraki]

and all he's done really is dismiss reasons for why people are scum reading Eric.

i've actually quite consistently said that I understand why people say he's scum but I don't agree with those reasons - that's dismissing? you're not getting a wagon on me based on these reasons - try a little harder next time?

I need to examine the SDAVT v/s TwoFace but from slight glances it looks town vs town - if anything my thumb is on SDAVT being scum but that's not anything I would put any money on.

Hiraki and tvd both voted masons yet they don't get shade cast on them but everyone else does?

quite honestly that's why i can't join the havingfitz wagon because these and other reasons sound v fishy and I'm like I have good reasons but I don't really believe in them and no one else does either so...?

[Hiraki]

I eagerly await for your anayasis about these fishy reasons. Surely you can explain which ones you find fishy and why.

I'm not sure what you mean by that last sentence. What are you referring to exactly and who are these others that don't believe in whatever it is.

i will write a large post and explain - don't doubt me yet

[Hiraki]

You're not taking into account that even if he is, it does not clear him.

so the crux of your argument is that you want me to vote for someone who is clearly scummy (I have not ever denied that he is very scummy on the surface - i'm not really willing to check so if I have, it's a mistake, but i'm like 99% sure I did not) without looking at their experience?

I don't care if someone says that they have 7 years of experience behind them - they certainly haven't demonstrated it in any capacity to my satisfaction. I think that Eric is new(b) town and therefore, as with anyone who is new, most scumtells don't really apply. If you used conventional scumtells in a newbie game, you would mislynch more than scumlynch.

Here's a question - do you honestly think that Eric has 7 years of forum mafia and is unable to deduce/state/etc.:

1) D1 equates to Day 1
2) Roleclaiming on Day 1 is or is not a good idea (difference between taking a stance on one side - that would mean that his website did one but instead he took a very neutral stance)
3) Claiming that he said his reasoning for voting Lil Uzi was told when it was a gut read
4) That the mod, on a site that he is

not

familiar with, is unable to make the roles user-specific
5) Anything more substance based than one or two quotes?

Again - like I said before - there is a chance that Eric is an alt of someone that is faking this. If true, then I'm not very pleased and I'm pretty sure you're supposed to declare if an alt. is an alt. but I'm not very sure on those rules.

I'm struggling see any reason for town to lie about how experienced they're at this game.

This is a fair point I have not considered. However, there is no scum motivation to do so either if the player is trying to win. There is no reason that the person can just make another alt at the end of the day. It does a give a small advantage in having someone (i.e. me) defend him if he is scum but I don't think this is the case.

There is no motivation to do so as town and I believe him when he says he's been playing mafia for a couple of years on another site. Very rarely do we get new members who have no prior experience.

Yeah and when I joined this site back in 2010 after playing a few games, I was garbage compared to everyone on this site. However, that experience was maybe 6 months at most. 7 years is a much bigger number.

Also took another look at his 161 and not only is it a terrible excuse, it's very manipulative.

Which gives more proof to my claims, rather than yours.

@twoface - i didn't think this post would get so big but dw I didn't forget, it is on my agenda for tomorrow

[Hiraki]

EWBOP: also add in that, as I said before, lying to inflate one's ability or ego after everyone is pressuring him is not an uncommon ordeal

[Hiraki]

Remember - this is who you're voting for under normal scumtells.

Following up on my promises now - expect to see something within the next hour.

[Hiraki]

And now my computer internet is down (posting from phone)

I have a post c/p'd on my computer that reflects current events but nothing on HF so I rescind my promise for the next few hours temporarily

[Hiraki]

All good! Hopefully it's nothing serious. Network issue?

Nah, just a little hiccup. Here's the first catch-up post.

414

Terrible post.
This entire post is based on someone's experience, which cannot be disproven anyway. You agree that neither align benefits from actually lying, so why the hard focus here, Haraki?

Because it's not always a town or scum mindset, sometimes it's a Hiraki-mindset or a Eric-mindset. Some people play the game their way regardless of how inappropriate that way of playing is. For Eric, he is playing to stay alive as clearly shown by his last post. I'm sure 7 years of experience demonstrates that the best way to stop a bandwagon is to show that you see it and just stay under the waves.

Not to mention, you didn't even talk about the post excluding the main theme.

Didn't we agree not to discuss meta?

Or at least the "problem" of Eric having prior experience (being an alt, offsite experience) was dropped?

Uh....no? The point I made before was that Lil Uzi was discussing meta as if it was a means to an end when we found out he wasn't really using it at all.

Additionally, my argument has always been that Eric is lying about his prior experience.

From what I've experienced in newbies/equivalents, newbies =/= dumb.

With no offense to Eric, are you trying to tell me that's not the case here? I didn't make a general statement by saying newb town, it's just a classification.

but scumtells still apply to newbies: case in point, "newbies like to bus a lot"

but this is v specific to newbies and quite honestly, if you feel that way let me remind you that Eric's votes have been on your mason partner (and whoever TwisTed is now [SVADT?] but that's not the important part here)

I know for some certainty Hiraki might be scum though

Your best scumread is on someone who is defending someone you

think

is scummy? I'm not the only one, I'm just the loudest.

Eric gets a gut townread for now (via tone, since that one vote only pings me) so:

WHAT????

I'm scum for

OVERDEFENDING

a TOWN-read of yours?

[Hiraki]

I eagerly await for your anayasis about these fishy reasons. Surely you can explain which ones you find fishy and why.

Woo, finally here!

I think the best way to start this is by examining everyone on the current wagon and seeing why they voted and how I agree/disagree.

Currently we have TwoFace, Gamma, and Ari on the wagon:

1) TwoFace: probably the most solid person on the wagon - im only going to go over the stuff i disagree with:

So fitz is probably scum. Too many non ai or non truths being twisted into appearing bad. No way an experienced town player comes to this conclusion.

This is very presumptive but I understand where you're coming from. would've loved to see you wait for his response tho.

- I'm not saying your naked vote on Misa is bad...I'm saying you voting a mason is bad. Which I can say in my post with the hindsight now that you were voting town. If I didn't assume LUV and Misa were telling the truth I wouldn't have considered you vote negatively.

this is bad - ill give you that much but it's not lynch worthy, looks more like a lapse in logic and judgment than anything. if he continues this sort of behavior, then we have problems.

IMO talking about the statistical odds of hitting scum in a group of four players on P1 of D1 is completely worthless. And going on and on about it serves absolutely no value and just gives the impression of trying. If it's not doing that then it has no place in the game...therefore is not progressing the game at all...and I find that counterproductive...aka suspect.

very fair

- In hindsight voting town (mason Misa) is bad...yes? Voting town in bad...yes? We have more information at our disposal following the mason claims so that colors your vote on Misa negatively. Comprehend?

However, there is nothing bad about it on day 1. This is voting analysis stuff that you're trying to shove in on Day 1. Like I said before, I agree that this is bad. It's really really not great but I don't think it's scummy. Just a lapse in judgment.

If TwoFace has only been on town wagons, that's something to look at - maybe a LYLO i have no clue vote.

To be fair, this throws everything I have said above into question but I am willing to wait for a response about this whole thing.

I will say I find it funny that I am 1) being accused/voted (by those I cast suspicion towards btw) of suspecting everyone who suspected/voted for a mason while at the same time 2) being criticized for town reading two of the players who voted/suspected a mason. Point 2 negates point 1. Which no one seems to even notice. And I readily admitted I suspected both LUV and Misa....but I know I am not scum.

I am not suspecting players of being scum solely based on the fact they suspected/voted a mason. But now that we have the mason claims that is perfectly valid information to consider.

That covers most of it though so let's move on.

2)Gamma: I don't really think he's town anyway but let's see what he has to say

Havingfitz: pushing the masons before they claim is NAI. If you wanted to attack someone for doubting the claim then that would make more sense.

Same reason almost verbatim, just a little crude.

HF is pushing stuff that is not actually scummy.

Weeuuueeeuuueeuuueuuuu

KK this is where stuff gets a little weird for me. Again, not disputing the fact that HF's stuff doesn't have a hint of scum taint but I don't really believe that. He gave a slew of other reasons, valid or not. I'm not really concerned about them because, as you will see, I have my own reasons.

I would be OK with anyone saying this but anyone who has thought about voting Eric (like Gamma has done) when Eric does literally the same things from an objective viewpoint. Except, Gamma only shows intent to vote Eric but doesn't do it. There's even a flip-flop on Eric between 185 and 384. Not enough for anyone to question it but there's certainly uncertainty that Gamma is town-reading Eric. In fact, if anything, there's a clear slideline provision there. But the fact that he's going to OK Havingfitz for some of the same things that Eric has literally done puts me at an unease.

3) Ari:

I mean like "You voted a Mason before they claimed! You must be scum!" doesn't even make any fucking sense!

You're right...and Havingfitz is experienced. Doesn't something seem very weird there?

I don't really want to do anything more with Ari because that's all he talks about Fitz in a relative sense (not a bad thing since Fitz has been V/LA)

There's nothing wrong with three people voting in the same exact way if it's for 110% valid reasons but I don't think this reason is 110% valid. There are certainly cracks and no one is following havingfitz. I think these reasons can be legitimate with the next post that he writes but not at the current moment.

Here are some reasons that fitz does draw actual concern though:

her replacing out is NAI imo regardless of reasons

1. I didn't ask you
2. I don't agree with you

1. We're you just thinking aloud and not looking for anyone else's opinion?
2. Who asked you?

Posts like these are very uncanny and weird. The fact this is toward TwoFace before the vote and then he votes TwoFace after listing multiple scumreads - especially with TwoFace arguably being the weakest of the bunch - is very weird. There's some sort of tunnel vision that Fitz is applying and it's not great. Started with Io in the beginning to a small degree, now it's straight onto TwoFace.

I also think that the response to me in 358 says a lot about Fitz's opinions of the game rather than opinions in general. The first two statements on VIs is ignorable because there's no reason to lie in that situation. Moving on from there:

The things he says and does are still fair game for assessing his alignment. I'm not and haven't been willing to just discard him for being new to this site.

This is the real meat of the situation. The fact that Fitz can't distinguish that some one, who is new, cannot have a different playstyle that would react differently to the overall alignment of a player is just straight up not true. There's no way Fitz can say that with a straight face without trying to convince himself of that fact.

Prior to the mason claims and Deer replacing in, Eric was lower down on my radar and not in conflict with your adamant mindset. With 3 people who were on my radar now removed for now...he has gone up on my list of suspects. And still not getting my vote despite that btw.

1) Eric did not post in between...so...?
2) Does that mean that you still suspect Deer for being in Io's slot? It certainly seems to be that way and links back to what I said at the top. Eric is probably 3rd lynch material for Fitz.

I know how to best play from a scum perspective and Fitz does that. Not from his words but from the long-term game. Am I willing to vote on that now? Yeah - maybe at the end of a BW or if nothing else really strikes anyone. I think I would rather get rid of Creeps first if this is how he's going to act for the rest of the game.

[Hiraki]

What has HF done that Eric has? Their play has been completely different.

not sure what you mean

[Hiraki]

Right - so what I'm saying is that HF needs to clarify what he means before anyone can really vote on it. Everytime he's pressed on it - everyone is confused. Even his last post doesn't really make any sense to me hindsight with everyone else. The appropriate action is not to vote based off of this (although pressure is fine) but to ask for clarification.

[Hiraki]

You must hate me huh Hiraki ... You can be hell bent over lynching me but it wont change the fact that I am town ... You know what, this is better.

I am

literally

town-reading you. This isn't even a matter of opinion. There is no one here that is trying to defend you harder against everyone else from lynching you.

The fact that you don't know this says that you're just plainly not reading the game or not thoroughly enough. If you don't have enough time or you're just not interested, no one here will spite you or anything. It's just that I think all of us would rather prefer someone who is actually playing the game rather than being the super awesome mafia detector that has literally no substance or reason to his ideas.

Otherwise, you're doing a great job trolling everyone to make us think that you're acting stupid but not stupid! Great prank bro!

[Hiraki]

Creeps Why tf do you keep on ignoring my questions? I'm trying to get a read on you through your answers to those questions and you just ignore it.

VOTE: Creeps till he answers my questions convincingly.

I couldnt get time to re-read yesterday. And i think there is no need now.

Current sus list:
Creeps
Gamma
Fitz (for reasons stated already by TF)

We found some OMGUS.
The only reason I am actually voting you is that you haven't told me who you are. As such I can't use meta to towns advantage. Pleased state which player you are now. Thank you.

Vote: Creeps

I like this better than Havingfitz. There are actual inconsistencies in Creeps play.

1) Do you think that you will actually find scum in someone not voting someone after making a list of scum? If they voted someone on their town list - fair. Not voting anyone? Bit hasty, no?
2) You did not state this in your original vote post.
3) In my opinion, this is a very very weak vote.

[Hiraki]

VOTE: hiraki

People abandoned scum for a policy lynch. I'll go fo his buddy.

lol

yes, its the same reason I tr eric. almost always ends in a mislynch. i dont policy lynch, you shouldnt either.

i gave reasons, i'm not policy lynching

Saying just enough to stay relevant while not really saying anything relevant.

i literally comment on just about everything that's important in this game - in fact, i'd like you to find something very important that i should've commented on but didn't

i'll be v honest, that is something i consistently do as scum and town, feel free to read my meta, i don't lurk unless im actually busy (as I was last weekend due to thanksgiving)

Plus I thought it was odd hiraki outlined his reads on basically everyone but him and tvd.

???

can you get off me now because this is a useless vote tbqh

He isn't really doing much though

yeah?

i didn't start discussion about how eric is newb town?

i didn't start discussion on lil uzi?

i didn't engage you on why misa might be scum?

when i have 44 posts in a 20ish page game and 24 of them (just counted) are basically one-reply posts, the other 20 posts are actually pretty relevant

I don't know if I can explain it any better so your simple mind can understand

really? are you OK dude? maybe this is why you called yourself twoface???

If this is your attitude the entire time, I can see why people didn't put time in to listen to you or take you seriously.

quite honestly no that's the weirdest thing

were you just being v sarcastic when you said take your time????

i can't comment on fitz more than I already have but I can say he's more of a competent player to blantantly just not talk about two people

Thoughts on Fritz / Hariki?

gamma's reasons are pretty bad but ill take what I can get at this point because i'd rather a lynch than NL

i posted about this like 2 posts ago - is it my most convincing case? no, not really but it's something

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p8551857

[Hiraki]

yet nothing memorable stands out for me. seems more like iioa. If you have commented on important things and you ended up voting creeps, like shania twain once said. That don't impress me much.

that's just your opinion then and I can't sway you - it's unfortunate that you think this way tho

I don't remember you starting a conversation about eric is newb town. I remember you making a big post saying he is a newb and don't know if he is scum or not. can you link me to where you started the conversation on it?

like I understand that there might be a difference between where he plays and where we play but keep the following in mind:
1) eric wasn't able to deduce what D1 on page 7 of a thread was
2) eric doesn't know if we should or shouldn't role claim on day 1
2a) eric isn't very confident in his own logic that he doesn't know if this is a good or bad idea
3)

His analysis seems off, his analysis is not backed with proof ...

on a vote that is done by GUT
4) eric has also basically trolled a bit and not really in a funny way, as i noted

i'm not trying to be offensive or mean - it's plainly the truth that he's not an experienced player in this sort of game and should not be taken as one

if he's faking it, like i noted before, that's just stupid and i'll honestly avoid him because it's just stupid play to get the town confused and drained (as is what is happening right now)

i would like to get past this and lynch scum tho - i hope you all will agree

You're not taking into account that even if he is, it does not clear him.

so the crux of your argument is that you want me to vote for someone who is clearly scummy (I have not ever denied that he is very scummy on the surface - i'm not really willing to check so if I have, it's a mistake, but i'm like 99% sure I did not) without looking at their experience?

I don't care if someone says that they have 7 years of experience behind them - they certainly haven't demonstrated it in any capacity to my satisfaction. I think that Eric is new(b) town and therefore, as with anyone who is new, most scumtells don't really apply. If you used conventional scumtells in a newbie game, you would mislynch more than scumlynch.

Here's a question - do you honestly think that Eric has 7 years of forum mafia and is unable to deduce/state/etc.:

1) D1 equates to Day 1
2) Roleclaiming on Day 1 is or is not a good idea (difference between taking a stance on one side - that would mean that his website did one but instead he took a very neutral stance)
3) Claiming that he said his reasoning for voting Lil Uzi was told when it was a gut read
4) That the mod, on a site that he is not familiar with, is unable to make the roles user-specific
5) Anything more substance based than one or two quotes?

Again - like I said before - there is a chance that Eric is an alt of someone that is faking this. If true, then I'm not very pleased and I'm pretty sure you're supposed to declare if an alt. is an alt. but I'm not very sure on those rules.

i think there's even more about this - there is no hesitation to call him anything but town though

I don't remember you engaging me on misa was scum, if you did it certainly didn't stand out as a memorable post

are you basically admitting that you didn't do your homework here?

i'm sorry if it's not "memorable" but at least I've done something in this game rather than Creeps who's going to sleep around here and do nothing for the rest of the game

the crux of your argument is that I haven't done anything substantial (wrong) and that if I have done something substantial, then I shouldn't be voting creeps because that shows a lack of overall substance in what I've done (what?????)

@ hiraki - earlier you said tvd was town soley based on his post 99. I have read it several times now and not seeing what about it makes him town.

can you explain your thought process for me?

sure - i still think the tvd slot is v townie

99 is a very hard-hitting post for early game:

See; this is even worse. Ari is now perpetuating the "I might be a PR, I might not be" narrative; once again, do you see town A) asking more people about this 'accidentally' slipped PR, or do you see town saying shit maybe we shouldn't talk about this so openly

I agreed with this 100%

It does not help in the long run. You know the only information that is valuable, that I know your meta, and know how to play the game. Everything else is busy-talk.

100%

i'm actually having some very hard problems for saying why that post doesn't reek of town because it's 100% town-aligned, can you explain how you don't see it?

also i feel like the quoted post is classic "not really answering the question" type thing

this is quite actually the only part of my post where I do that and everything else is substance; i was very confused and shocked by this and TF's vote because you've both been pretty heavy on the town read. TF at least has some legitimate concerns that I can't settle down on - I don't think his views are scum-aligned.

However, the fact that the biggest part of my post, which was the ending, is just thrown away like it's nothing is very concerning for a slot like yours which hasn't been posting much anyway. If you weren't a mason, I'd honestly 100% have my vote on you at this point.

[Hiraki]

no this was me going through your iso on my phone and couldn't really find anything other than a throw away question.

but it was just for the misa part

Fine you don't like my reasonings, but i am not the only one voting you.

and i've addressed ALL of those votes in ISO 44(you), 32(as well as previous debates in the early game), 38(misa), 42(Eric)

You have both masons voting you, yet you aren't trying to sway them to move their vote.

1) Lil Uzi has been on me for the entire game - this is a fact.

No I don't really care about Lil Uzi atm because I don't think he's looking at the entire game. It's very ironic that in the same post that he thinks I'm "blindly tunneling" he's so blind that he can't see that the two people that he thinks are scum are me and the person that I want to lynch the most atm. Does that sound really weird or something????

2) Misa has only recently joined my wagon and has not said anything about the actual reasons in my post, just got to the point where I said one thing where it might be a

tad

bit insulting since it's very ironic that Misa would vote me out of the blue. Like I said in my last post, if there's anyone on my wagon who - without the premise of a mason claim - I would vote right now, it would be Misa.

3) Eric - do I really need to say more?

My wagon is not full of 100% scumreads, that's why I'm not lynched yet. It's because most of the town realizes there's something dumb going on.

so why no push to lynch ari? Or at least pressure Ari? You voted uzi (mason) and Creeps (lynchbait)

Are you saying that because Creeps is a supposed easy lynch that he's town?

Because I can tell you this is not an easy lynch.

Ari was page 1ish material. That's not the same thing and it wasn't scummy. It was clearly for reaction purposes. Do you see him talking about it after Page 5 or 10? I don't even need to check his ISO for that.

Feels like you had something legitimate against ari yet did nothing with it (see this is the kind of thing i am scum reading you for)

That's nice. You had a feeling? I've been writing so much that you had a feeling about what I said rather than looking on what I actually said? This is why I'm pretty annoyed. This wagon is very much feeling oriented rather than fact.

Using meta is meh. it's NAI at best.

are we looking at the same post? here's what Ari did in that post:
1) Admission that the PR stuff in his first post caused a shitstorm (i.e. reactionary)
2) Actually using that post to get some reads, more specifically asking FJ about the post
3) Agreement on the mutually exclusive criteria (not very relevant now)

1 and 2 are more sort of not really relevant now while 3 is very much not so.

Hell even a halfway decent scum player could put something together.

Yeah, and a scummy player could make the most pro-town argument and still be scum. I guess it really just doesn't matter...

Neither you or tvd pushed Ari at all despite both of you agreeing that him talking about the PR thing doesn't seem town motivated.

plz quote here's what I actually said:

1) (Iso 0) i usually don't like to focus on softcrumbs on d1 - more of a useful tool on d4 if ari claims VT and is like "just a prank bro, i was deflecting :):):):):)"
2) (Iso 3) im sorry i don't want to suck your ego off about your softcrumb that's stupid

i really haven't talked at lengths about this - i have talked at lengths about the meta argument, which I think you are confusing with the PR argument. that is scummy, the PR stuff isn't. If I'm wrong, feel free to correct me.

[Hiraki]

lol

[Hiraki]

as i said previously, masons are honestly the scummiest people here. the only reason i wouldn't want to lynch both of them (for separate reasons - not claim based) is because of their claims

it's v hard to work when you are on a trail and then the trail literally doesn't go cold, it just stops

creeps is the next best choice - not sure how you can honestly defend him, it's not a eric situation. he is clearly here and reading and giving his opinions, they're just not good opinions - please refer to ISO 43

i really think you need to respond to the above because there are some major inconsistencies in what you're saying and what actually happened (ex: PR discussion is bad - I never said that, I was talking about the meta discussion after RVS)

[Hiraki]

sorry - got a bit busy, reading now

[Hiraki]

let's be honest here. you didn't really put much work in your uzi scum read imo. your reasons for scum reading him were fairly weak, just like your reasons for voting creeps.

kk just happened to start a wagon, nbd - im kind of done with this if you're just going to call my stuff garbage rather than actually debate with me

you've misrepped me, called my logic stupid without actually talking about it, and accuse me of just stupid things at this point - go ahead and keep your vote on, you're VI to me now; this new playstyle won't get you anywhere

i hope someone notices that gamma is literally scumreading two of the largest wagons when he somehow survives onto day 3 and i get lynched because of these "reasons"

He's basically setting himself up to be lynched. You really think scum decided to be completely useless and hope town lets him get away with it? Really?

your reason for keeping creeps alive is that he is TOO bad to be doing good at his role which is LITERALLY exactly what he would WANT if he was doing EXACTLY what you're saying!!! like i don't agree with what you're saying and I can see this!!!

Creeps as town: Continues to play this way because it's his playstyle - no actual negatives because people like you don't want to lynch him for being "too big to be scum" (this is literally the same line of logic)

Creeps as town: Continues to play this way because NO ONE WILL LYNCH HIM for the same above reasons

I've seen this happen before - lurkers can say bullshit and just act stupid to victory, I think I've done it (not on purpose but because I actually got busy and wanted to play) before because it works.

It's not a policy lynch if he's ACTUALLY SCUMMY.

[Hiraki]

i like mathblade-kun ))

really nothing to add, more motivation if I make it to D2 to start a gamma wagon

[Hiraki]

Prodge.

>>>>>>>>>>>>:

[Hiraki]

Probably going to vote creeps. Isoing now

This.is probably scum

this is probably lazy work (not you, him)

[Hiraki]

@Ari: Why is Math town?

He's doing a bang up job at actually scumhunting this game, conversing, and seems genuinely to be trying to win as town. He's probably become my biggest townread.

can you actually read his recent posts? even i have lost faith - not scum but not as much town as before

[Hiraki]

VOTE: Creeps
L-1

uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

i just want to make it very clear that either gamma is really bad or scum

The prior votecount had /5/ voting (including gamma but it's pretty obvious that he was unaware of that due to the following posts)

FrankJaeger votes in 840, the actual L-1 and then Gamma votes in 841 as if that was actually L-1

Gamma - please, please, PLEASE be a bit more careful with your votes if you're town. If you're scum, which I think you are, that was not a smooth move as you may think it was.

FYI it is now L-2, i can hop on Gamma or Creeps at this point - mathblade also loses a town point for shying out at the last minute

Catching up more deer is looking town.
VOTE: creep

Care to show your work? You don't post much so I'd really love to see some explaining.

I'd also like your other scum reads with a summary of why

we really don't agree on much (i.e. anything) but i think we can finally agree that a force replacement is almost sorely needed at this point (and yes, i understand how frustrating this is mod, i am sorry for agreeing)

a vote is not a content based post

[Hiraki]

VOTE: Creeps
L-1

uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

i just want to make it very clear that either gamma is really bad or scum

The prior votecount had /5/ voting (including gamma but it's pretty obvious that he was unaware of that due to the following posts)

FrankJaeger votes in 840, the actual L-1 and then Gamma votes in 841 as if that was actually L-1

Gamma - please, please, PLEASE be a bit more careful with your votes if you're town. If you're scum, which I think you are, that was not a smooth move as you may think it was.

FYI it is now L-2, i can hop on Gamma or Creeps at this point - mathblade also loses a town point for shying out at the last minute

Catching up more deer is looking town.
VOTE: creep

Care to show your work? You don't post much so I'd really love to see some explaining.

I'd also like your other scum reads with a summary of why

we really don't agree on much (i.e. anything) but i think we can finally agree that a force replacement is almost sorely needed at this point (and yes, i understand how frustrating this is mod, i am sorry for agreeing)

a vote is not a content based post

I switched off to vote fitz between the VC and Frank's vote

my b - dunno how i missed that, you're completely correct

Did a quick skim and ISO, my vote is still where it needs to be. Willing to compromise on Ari.

Why!?

Missed this. A lot of your posts feel fake and all of you're votes are just really bad or blind sheeping.

hello pot

[Hiraki]

Hello scum!

better than being the second most unactive "confirmed" town that looks scummy

Thanks for the extension Dier!

Vote: havingfitz

give me your infinite wisdom nacho

1) Creeps distrust of the masons seems scummy, and if he lives to LyLo, based on his current behavior, he's a definite liability

even tho i don't want you to switch off your scumbud, these reasons aren't great - why can't someone be skeptical of something that's not confirmed?

doesn't fitz do /literally/ the same thing?

You don't reread and have your reads end up LESS DEVELOPED.

You don't think that it's possible for people to lose confidence over time?
Or are you making a different point with this?

Before they had a me-Creeps-joshz scumteam
After, it was "idek everyone else, gamma is teh scumz"

So why is that reason to lynch Creeps and not Mathblade?

It felt like he was backing off his buddy
Now that you point it out, what I did is actually rather bad. I'm voting the wrong side of the association.
VOTE: MathBlade

can you like not vote someone alone at this point

Hikari's approach to Eric in 190 is interesting; identifying that he is town is good but expected. I'm not sure what to make over his "I'm not sure if he's scum or not" type posts.

v confused on what you mean on the last part

i can switch onto fitz tbh - i haven't really enjoyed his recent responses, although i also know that i have not commented on them, really not willing to do it atm but moreso if needed

[Hiraki]

You seemed like you had a pretty decent townread on him early and then it fizzled out into this

it didn't fizzle out into that, that's post 190 - fair point if this was post 200 or 300 tho (its not)

[Hiraki]

but you make the most sense as the scum partner, I called that shit ages ago

fitz/tvd (you)/hiraki

look - this is our first interaction ever in a game and if you HONESTLY think you've figured out the game on day one, then I hope you learn a lot from this game

[Hiraki]

look - this is our first interaction ever in a game and if you HONESTLY think you've figured out the game on day one, then I hope you learn a lot from this game

do I think i am 100% right? no absolutely not BUT if fitz is scum, my scum team makes perfect sense given the interactions.

I'll concede maybe I am wrong about you but the way fitz was soft defending tvd really strikes me as odd

it was odd, just not scummy - i think he had a plan

[Hiraki]

What do you think of my FJ read?

i want to see content before i can commit

Doing some vca.
Nacho is prob town based on d2 posting.
Joshz vote looks bad here.
VCA should be revealing in anycase.

This is insane - you're doing VCA when there's almost 40+ pages of content that you just plainly haven't commented on? It's not like you didn't have time. Even if we assume you're a super secret PR, there's NO reason why you couldn't do it during the night. This sounds and looks to me like a major cop out.

What if I told you Frank and Hiraki arent the only ones allowed to be lynched?

this is your defense????????????????????? don't you dare drag me into this - I at least post

Vote: Frank

i am going to read mathblade to try and figure out who he was on

[Hiraki]

Quickly looked at frankly ISO. Looks like a much better vote than most people in the game
VOTE: Frank

this hurts me

I'm starting to think gamma could be scum also. He was easy to hop off fitz onto creeps. Fitz put a lot of reasons out for gamma, more so for me but pushed me and only went to gamma much later when it was still obvious gamma wasn't getting lynched.

Fitz/gamma/hiraki. Does this make sense?

I guess hiraki could be scum.
Not sure but his vote on me is the worst yet.

BAHAHAHA

SO INSTEAD OF POSTING SOMETHING GOOD, YOU'RE GOING TO KEEP ON DOING VCAs ON DAY 2 IN ORDER TO FIND SCUM?????

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

@2face(my internet is being stupid, sorry) : i honestly get that but if you then continue on from mid-D1, you can get a clearer picture

is it very wishy-washy and something that im ok for being pushed on? sure - and I explained that for you when asked what I meant so it's not like I ignored it or anything

but you should get the tunnel vision gone-o

you were right yesterday, kudos

if you wanna compromise, i can still do gamma

[Hiraki]

I am back up body guard.

ok so this is where you do stuff right

Frank then continues to post reads:

Are these from your VCA analysis? What kind of air did you get these from?

Hiraki's vote on Frank is the only thing I've liked from him all game. I'm torn.

1) if you /really/ can't see the tunnelvision now, you're blind - not that i honestly care

2) this is LITERALLY the same case as Creeps which, let me remind you myself:

As for Creeps, from my experience, he's like this and is going to most likely be a difficult read. We'll see what he brings to the table Day 2.

If Hiraki flips town, we lynch Creeps tomorrow.

It means save Creeps for Day 2 and hop on the other wagon so we can avoid a no lynch.

Town: Creeps, Gamma, TF

hope you are reminded buddy on how this makes /literally/ no sense

so im v glad that you think something i did that is in line with my current scumreads is townie but i hope you do something that makes sense next time

i honestly won't be surprised when we get into lylo and you're the hammer

Im willing to call gamma more town than null.

(according to X,Y, and Z)

Unvote, Vote: Creeps

[Hiraki]

if I tried says a lot about you and this game

[Hiraki]

OK GUYS I'M BACK - I'M READY TO KICK ASS AGAIN, THE ULT CHARGE IS BACK:

Okay that response from Hiraki tbh was crap.

Great! I would love to hear what you disagreed about! Oh wait! I can't have that opportunity if you just shout something out with reasoning! Wooo! Aren't posts like these SUPER productive?????

VOTE: Creeps
Hiraki is town.

Not with posts like that he's not

OH! BUT I'M /SURE/ I CAN RESPOND TO THIS O-

Nope, can't do that either! Weeee!

VCA is included in my reads bro

Included, or the sole basis? Again, have you read Day 1?

you hate it when people call themselves town?

It creates a huge bias in your reads that not everyone else can follow because only you know that you're town.

plus his posts today are very scummy

Great! Remember yesterday when TwoFace

literally

said that he just can't respond to my posts anymore? Haha! That was not irritating at all!

and I think the VCA points to confirming creeps is probably town.

Because confirmed town are always correct, right???

why not look into people I am scum reading?

You keep asking us if we think you're tunneling and THIS is the question that you pose to Vedith?

Really?

He's done very little explaining.

(citation needed)

Tbh this does sound like an interesting idea
Vedith's pushes today leave something to be desired

What does this mean????

How do people's /pushes/ leave something to be desired? I don't even know how to put that in a more inquisitve way. It's like Gamma saw candy and said "Ooo! That one looks yummy right now!"

Can you guys really form solid reads and opinions???

ive scum read you for a while

vedith is null himself but i sr'd twiszted so its a push forward from that.

there is scum in vedith and scumdeers :*

I don't particularly like mathblade (no offense meant I dislike most people I'm an asshole) but idt he's scum. Yknow who's scum? Vedith!

VOTE: vedith

This is mostly for twiszted slot. Looking at twiszted content, it's disgustingly bad. Vedith has idled and not been particularly townie himself, so while his content is more of a null read twiszteds was enough to make him likely scum.

It's not a fake read, you're scum. Stop diverting attention.

i have a very, very strong scum read on twiszted, and vedith hasnt exactly been a super strong townie. i encourage you to read through twiszted's content itt, its awful.

ive scrolled through the thread and isos a ton and i feel confident gut wise about vedith being scum, but i dont have a case atm that i can post so for now and i get im not being very convincing.

Now, hold on - this one is important:

changed my mind a bit on vedith but i still scum read twiszted pretty hard so he is only slightly town overall as a slot

townier side/null {gamma, vedith}

still dont think vedith/scumdeers/creeps are clear but poe wise theyre probably town.

BEEP BEEP

hiraki/gamma/frank most likely contains both scum, id still lynch vedith but apparently nobody agrees with that so

What happened between these two posts that made you switch your read from null/town to scum? Keep in mind that you had

four

scumreads at that time and Ved beats out all of them???? Huh???

yay for someone else scumreading vedith!

And this is the official scumread. I think you have some explaining to do.

because other people are starting to as well

OK, so here's what I want:

In almost every post that you call Vedith scum, you refer to TwisTed as being the BIGGEST source for this scumread - is there anything that happened between 1161 and 1221 that made you switch so quickly from Vedith's posting?

If we're lucky Creeps will get replaced and we'll have another active member of the town.

As for Creeps, from my experience, he's like this and is going to most likely be a difficult read. We'll see what he brings to the table Day 2.

[Hiraki]

I don't remember 1161 to 1221 specifically by numbers and I'm on mobile so checking is a pain in the ass.

Cool - this is enough for me to put a vote on but his next post gives more substantial evidence.

Vedith did nothing between those posts.

Twiszted is the biggest source - vedith is mostly null or slight scum lean, but twiszted looked really scummy (I explained why earlier) and the combination reinforces scum vedith. I was never not willing to lynch vedith, but I'm new and the more experienced townies getting on board with scum vedith reinforces my reads.

OK - can you please explain what's scummy about Vedith? You have never done that.

Specifically, drawing on the newb card isn't an excuse for bad play.

Was thinking the same.

why do so many people generalize new players? they are not honest and easily readable as town as a rule. there is a difference between being new to mafia and being new to ms

Are we being duped? Are you actually someone other than Eric?

i think my play is fine and acknowledging that im new to choosing people i trust to be townie to partially sheep is a good plan.

I can tell you that in a game with more open minds, this is not a way for victory.

or, vote me and make a case, but just casually fosing me and not commenting on anything relevant is a waste of time.

Yet when I made a pretty good start to a case, you decided to just reply on mobile?

Unvote, Vote: Joshz

I'm less inclined to hold Hiraki as a townread after Frank's claim;

Can you go into this? I don't get how you get this conclusion. Is your read on me linked toward your read on Vedith?

[Hiraki]

I didn't say that posting on mobile was scummy or bad. I just thought that utilizing mobile to reply to what is clearly something that requires more attention is not the best method utilize. I find it very ironic that my point was not that you posted on mobile but moreso that I posted an argument against you (i.e. something that you asked AJ to do) and then you proceeded to kind of just throw it into the trash.

Was that attack toward me really necessary? I said /nothing/ about your social life. I care about your social as much as you care about mine.

For someone who is a newbie (I'm really not buying that you're experienced in mafia), I hope you learn that taking criticism about your play is an essential part of this game and don't resort to frivolous arguments in the future.

Can you now address the arguments I've brought up?

Post-Edit:

I'm a townie-nothing more to say on my claim. I honestly would rather self-hammer just to make the town a little more self-aware that this tunneling shit has gone WAY too far. Please Gamma for the love of god. Can you FUCKING explain what's crap? I've asked you TIME and TIME again and I've gotten nothing but the next post saying "Hey, Hiraki's post is crap"

Here are some examples:

OK just looking at Hiraki's last post I'm not very pleased by what he's saying. Specifically his ad hominem attack on TF.

Okay that response from Hiraki tbh was crap.

That's not a productive way to play. Gamma has not ever explained this scumread.

When I die (there's really no IF here, this train has no brakes) please look at Joshz and Gamma much harder.

POST-EDIT: CHRIST, ARE YOU SERIOUS?

Cool - this is enough for me to put a vote on but his next post gives more substantial evidence.

Like wtf is this shit?

THIS IS BLANTANT MISREPRESENTATION! WHAT THE FUCK?

HERE'S WHAT I ACTUALLY SAID:

Cool - this is enough for me to put a vote on but his next post gives more substantial evidence.

Vedith did nothing between those posts.

THE IMPORTANT PART IS THE LATER. IT'S BECAUSE THE POST I QUOTED SAID THAT JOSHZ HAD NO IDEA WHAT HAPPENED BETWEEN THOSE POSTS WITH VEDITH. I KNEW WHAT HAPPENED FROM THE BEGINNING BUT DIDN'T POINT MY FINGER OUT FIRST.

LIKE REALLY? DO YOU HAVE ANY READING COMPREHENSION?

[Hiraki]

I don't remember 1161 to 1221 specifically by numbers and I'm on mobile so checking is a pain in the ass.

Cool - this is enough for me to put a vote on but his next post gives more substantial evidence.

Vedith did nothing between those posts.

JUST SO WE'RE DOUBLY CLEAR, HERE'S WHAT TWOFACE QUOTED BUT THEN TOOK OUT ALL OF THE RELEVANT PARTS.

[Hiraki]

AM I EXPECTED TO REMEMBER POSTS IN THE THREAD BY NUMBER AND CAPS ARE COOL BECAUSE I LOOK ANGRY AND BY THE WAY CALLING THAT A PERSONAL ATTACK IS HILARIOUS AND IRONICALLY ATE

No, but I would expect you to remember something that:

1) Changed your mind
2) Someone who changed your mind, since that is where you get all of your reads

Writing normally didn't work.

[Hiraki]

I mean, if Vedith is such a big scumread, wouldn't be hard for you to explain why he's scum, no?

[Hiraki]

THIS IS BLANTANT MISREPRESENTATION! WHAT THE FUCK?

No it's not cause the part I quoted is the part I have a problem with. I can't misrep you if all I did was quote you

The part that doesn't make sense without the other half? Yeah?

[Hiraki]

These all caps is just fake emotional out bursts imo.

Let me be very clear. They are very real. No matter what you are at the end of this game or what happens, this is the final game that I will be playing with you or Gamma. I will respectfully stop there. I usually don't comment on these things but I do not want to be called fake.

You never even stated you scum read me, never mind voted me.

I am currently voting you.

You actually haven't posted a read on me since like mid d1... or replied to my scum reads on you at all until aj mentioned me as his (only so far) scum read.

Why does this matter?

The middle paragraph really doesn't mean anything to me. I am not trying to lynch you because I think you're a newb, I'm trying to lynch you because I think you're scum.

I explained why vedith was scum to nacho a long time ago, look in my iso. The confirmed townies dropped it so I did, I explained my thoughts already and if they are telling me they disagree I don't scum read vedith strong enough to value arguing.

1) I don't see this post. Mind helping me?
2) I don't see Nacho ever saying that he agreed with you. Just that he asked you to formulate your opinion.

Post-Edit: Gonna address the next post in a different post, just a bit too much for me right now.

I mean, if Vedith is such a big scumread, wouldn't be hard for you to explain why he's scum, no?

Vedith refuses to explain his creeps town read. What's your thought on that?

Nothing - more concerning if he was avoiding answering a question on a scumread.

I did the same thing when the HF stuff went up in flames about you making connections.

You never even answered my question at you btw, thanks for having me reread and notice that.

What question?

You never even answered my question at you btw, thanks for having me reread and notice that. Someone else (twoface) scum reading vedith was what I needed to convince me I wasn't just misguided, which granted is still very well a possibility. Despite a genuine frank scum read I am pretty sure at least one scum would've voted him because he was a truly easy push - that said, a lot of us scum read frank so it's a very very minor part of my thoughts.

Let me get this straight:

In Post 1217 - Joshz posts that he thinks Vedith is scum. The main crux of the above argument is that he was following a confirmed townie (FJ) which as much as I don't agree with is still somewhat of his own opinion.

However, Frank only claimed in Post 1228. Am I missing something? How can you use that argument if FJ didn't claim until 10 posts later?

[Hiraki]

@Hiraki: I regard your posts as bad because the reactions seem exaggerated. My most recent callout is a prime example: too much eagerness in the post.

That's scummy?

Instead of looking at the arguments I'm presenting, you're solely looking at the emotions?

[Hiraki]

Sorry - I misread that. I really think that's the best way to find scum but I will take back my accusation.

Unvote, Vote: Creeps

[Hiraki]

*I really don't think

[Hiraki]

No worries. Didn't take it too personally, honestly. Just wanted to get you stop talking about your newbness and start talking about the game.

I'm glad we could resolve our qualms normally, no matter what occurs from here on out.

[Hiraki]

Unvote, Vote: Gamma

[Hiraki]

I cannot wait for arrogantface to eat utter shit with my flip - really looking forward to it.

[Hiraki]

GG scum, even with the D1 lynch, you got this one in the bag

[Hiraki]

No offense but if you're going to just blindly follow Lil Uzi, who may not be reading the game, and FJ, who is not reading the game, I'm right.

At the same rate, TF will just blantantly misrep people and call it OK because ???? And if you question him, that's most definitely a no-no.

You are right though - things are illogical this game so I guess it's pretty illogical to expect the logical outcome.

[Hiraki]

Don't worry - I know you'll call me garbage or whatever after my flip, really doesn't mean much coming from you!

I mean why should I be mad when gamma's best assertion toward why I'm scum is one sentence long? That's totally acceptable!

[Hiraki]

Wah! I don't like your scumreads!

[Hiraki]

Nacho - don't blame you if you hammer but I think you have a clear mind. I'm not unjustified in what I'm saying, right?

[Hiraki]

I definitely didn't ask you. Don't need your opinion.

[Hiraki]

I don't really understand why you're pushing Gamma or Creeps, but that's possibly a failure on my part to read.

Creeps is because his content was terrible. I'm willing to slide on that read for a replacement.

Gamma is literally terrible. His posts on me conclude that because I'm using emotion, I'm scum - something that hasn't happened since recently. Gamma hasn't said anything about his position. The guy probably has the most posts in the game but the least amount of content.

The hypocrisy that I found in Post 464 is a good place to start in understanding why I believe Gamma's reasoning is logically flawed.

475 lists 3 main concerns with Creeps play in D1. However, as stated previously, this may just be a Creeps playerstyle thing. I'm willing to let his replacement let me change my mind on that slot. Gamma is 100% though (which is, again, why I'm voting him)

[Hiraki]

No offense but if you're going to just blindly follow Lil Uzi, who may not be reading the game, and FJ, who is not reading the game, I'm right.

At the same rate, TF will just blantantly misrep people and call it OK because ???? And if you question him, that's most definitely a no-no.

You are right though - things are illogical this game so I guess it's pretty illogical to expect the logical outcome.

Huh? Is this at me?

sort of, i really don't agree with your playing style still

[Hiraki]

I haven't misrepped anyone btw

You took my post, took the relevant part out, and judged it based on half the facts

That is literally the definition of misrepresentation is a representation of my views that is incorrect

[Hiraki]

When I flip, trust nacho (except on AJ because I feel you two both think he's scum)

[Hiraki]

The part that was AFTER ANSWERED MY OWN QUESTION THAT JOSHZ WAS RESPONDING TO

JESUS, REALLY???

[Hiraki]

Next time I'll write it in Victorian English with better formatting but I'm glad that there will literally never be a next time

[Hiraki]

It's not enough to put a vote on someone who randomly switches their read for no reason ever given?

This is your "hero" from Day 1

[Hiraki]

Here's some more things to consider about what TF has done:

1) Not posting enough actual content in the middle of D1 when I had around 40 posts in the game with 20 of them being very content oriented and the other half being quick responses
2) I don't talk about my

town

reads enough (i.e. his scumreads at that time)
3) Not replying to everyone that has voted me (then showed responses that were done prior)
4) Not pushing on Ari for a /page 1/ suspicion (n.b. this plays into the TF really doesn't like anyone who doesn't agree with his reads dealio)
5) "let's be honest here. you didn't really put much work in your uzi scum read imo." - When the wagon got to L-1
6) Having generally bad posts but never commenting on what is actually bad about them

7 would be this Joshz situation but wait, wow - this is actually a christmas miracle

Just one last post that I'd like to bring back up regarding the HF stuff:

quite honestly that's why i can't join the havingfitz wagon because these and other reasons sound v fishy and I'm like I have good reasons but I don't really believe in them and no one else does either so...?

This is why I didn't vote for him. Don't act like I thought my reasons were solid concrete because they never really were.

The point in particular that I didn't like was when that he had "better reasons to vote fitz than everyone else", but it's not a point that I can actually put words behind so it doesn't factor into my overall read much.

another reason for the quote because it demonstrates that i did think I had better reasons but I didn't really think they were /great/ reasons in the first place

I could vote JoshZ based on what we've discussed, there's substantial evidence that makes me say that scum would do this more than town - but when I factor in the actual person in the role, it makes me say nah

HF was 100% the same way

[Hiraki]

One particular piece of bad logic - the part where Gamma thought outing the masons was the optimal play for town - seemed to me to be something that was more likely to come from scum than town simply because how brazen it was (not thinking of the circumstances when scum are typically more aware of them). Fitz came down pretty hard against Gamma for this, which I thought was indicative of scum pushing town for bad logic. I find oftentimes that scum push townies hard when they've done something that's objectively bad and overextend themselves a bit - this is what I thought happened with his push on Gamma, and was the reason for my initial scumread on him. What was your opinion on this?

One of the biggest things that I think this game will either prove or disprove is that relying on partner interactions in the early game is a way to cause easy mislynches.

I really don't like looking at these interactions - I don't have any current games but I'm sure most of my old games will demonstrate that. I think people show that they're scummy more than their partners.

However, I will admit that I found most of those conversations to be null. I also hate PR stuff - that's something I'm sure is consistent. I would love to play vanilla mafia all day long rather than mafia with PRs but I'm getting a bit off topic. I really found what Gamma was and wasn't saying was more of an indication to look at him. His vote on me is probably the most flawed and telling one. 245 is a good indication that these aren't new thoughts. I've just been a bit more consistent in focusing my thoughts a little bit more neatly recently.

Keep in mind that Gamma also had scumreads on both Creeps and HF. What was his reasonings for these?

My reasons for voting Creeps are that if he is scum he is using poor play as a smokescreen, and if he is town he is giving power to scum, especially by distrusting the confirmed masons.

Does anyone really buy these reasons? If so, keep this in mind:

I'm dead serious: if we end up not having a decent lynch at deadline I suggest we PL Creeps because his play will get in the way of the town.

This is some of that L/T stuff in action. What has Gamma said about Creeps recently?

VOTE COUNT 1.02

Eric Rasputin (3): Creeps20, Lil Uzi Vert, MisaTange
Lil Uzi Vert (2): Hiraki, TheseViolentDelights
TheseViolentDelights (1): Gamma Emerald
Io (1): havingfitz
Hiraki (1): Io
havingfitz (1): Aristophanes
TwiszTed (1): Eric Rasputin

No Vote (3): TwoFace, FrankJaeger, TwiszTed

TIMER

(expired on 2016-11-30 16:30:00)

NOTES

Seeking replacement for Io

I think I'd rather lynch Creeps than Frank today tbh
He's the only one not confirmed town on the Eric wagon here, and Eric is very likely town.
Would have been nice if I had thought to check this earlier, but Day 1 VCA is usually terrible so w/e

Creeps was the HF wagon yesterday. I find it a bit weird that the three people that Gamma has scumread (HF, Me, Ved) are the three people that have been in focus the most. The discussion on other players is minimal at most. Could it be coincidence? Sure - I'm not too sure about that though. I'm not saying he should write paragraphs of defense, just something that says that they acknowledge their opinion. Here are some more things that have been concerning.

Day one lynches on scum are fucking hard.Compromises will almost always end up in town D1. Compromising from Creeps to Hiraki looks like an excuse to not bus.

I'll vote Creeps if it shows support.

This a hard scum-tell of mine.

Post-edit:

but I held Fitz to a higher standard because he knew better while with Eric I understood that he probably wasn't very experienced in this style and being a newer player sometimes makes you tilt at windmills, not to mention anything of the reasons that I was townreading me leaving me a lot more willing to dismiss things that I would push if they were coming out of the mouths of other players.

Two reasons, don't mind if you honestly don't buy any of them:

1) Maybe it's just because my first newbie game was with Fitz but I thought he had more experience with them. Not enough for me to take action with him but also not enough for me to take action against him. Looking back at it and the way you explained it, that may have been an error in judgment.
2) Much like number 1, people have very very large differences in the way they treat newbies. Even though I said the vanilla stuff above, I really like PRs to get rid of that part. It's obtrusive but the best way to put it. I would rather base my scumreads or townreads on tangible scumtells.

[Hiraki]

That was the point of my comme-
you know what, not worth it.
I'm just gonna sit on my bad vote until someone convinces me to vote elsewhere.

Read you piece of garbage (I don't actually think you're a piece of garbage)

v convincing

[Hiraki]

I still would like to hear Hiraki's reasons for townreading AJ, though.

I stated that

I liked Deer's comments and I don't see anything wrong with AJ atm. Is there something you think I missed?

@nacho - hiraki made a big post responding to me that concludes with him saying he would vote fitz. Shortly after he voted creep. I don't see similar type posts explaining creeps scum (unless I somehow missed it) so that's weird for me.

Says will vote scum but instead votes the counter to scum usually points to scum not town. Factor in his bad reads and over the top fake AtE. I don't see how he's town here.

That is not what I said, I even quoted the post in the previous page when talking to Nacho. You can't just stuff words in my mouth, I know what I said. Here it is, yet again:

I know how to best play from a scum perspective and Fitz does that. Not from his words but from the long-term game. Am I willing to vote on that now? Yeah - maybe at the end of a BW or if nothing else really strikes anyone. I think I would rather get rid of Creeps first if this is how he's going to act for the rest of the game.

Stop acting like I said that HF was on the same level as Creeps. I made that very clear.

The leftovers
Vedith - not really scummy, but Joshz thinks so
Hiraki - opted to not vote fitz after stating he would
Aj - this is a small issue, but has thrown shade on Eric after the consensus decided he was town
Aristo - softed a PR early Day 1

NACHO I THINK THIS IS THE THIRD TIME IM ASKING YOU EXPLAIN YOUR ARISTO READ OR SAY ITS NOT A TOWN READ ANYMORE AAAAAHHHHHHHHHH

aj disappearing after our short interaction and still not being back is concerning af too

you do know that this Gamma, no?

I'm telling him if he reads the last 5 or so pages he'll understand what's going on.

doesn't seem to work very well this game

[Hiraki]

That is not what I said, I even quoted the post in the previous page when talking to Nacho. You can't just stuff words in my mouth, I know what I said. Here it is, yet again:

Well that makes me even more suspicious of you given fitz was scum. Creeps was a bad vote. Nobody had good reasons for him, not even you imo.

Which is fine - I would rather you have a worse opinion on me but be correct on the situation or at least understand where I'm coming from. It's not so much that I mind disagreeing opinions - I disagreed with a lot of people this game. It's when the opinion has false circumstances is when I get particularly annoyed.

[Hiraki]

Nacho is a near-confirmed mason.

[Hiraki]

Aristo, Hiraki, mind voting AJ with me? As far as catchups go, that one was particularly pitiful.

the one he didn't make yet?

i can't atm tbh

[Hiraki]

Ari that's a bad vote

[Hiraki]

The votes on AJ have the same consistency in my annoyance with the votes on me.

Disagreement on a situation is

not

scummy. Disagreements on the mindset are more likely to have town/scum influence. (I feel like I wrote this poorly but I'm not sure how to phrase it - if this needs explaining, I will be happy to clarify)

[Hiraki]

I also think that voting AJ before he has a chance to actually summarize the game and give his actual full-on opinion of a situation is not great on either side. No disagreement on the idea that one or two votes don't hurt - moreso that I really really don't like Ari or Gamma's votes.

[Hiraki]

I didn't say anything was bad with your vote - I thought yours was pretty fair

[Hiraki]

But your logic is that most of the people shouldn't vote him based on a disagreement yeah?

That's what I'm trying to disprove.

Disagreement on what occurred based on the facts rather than the opinions.

It's abnormal to ever say this without mod confirmation but there is a 0% chance that AJ is correct on his view of the facts. Therefore, I don't think it's very good move to vote him for being incorrect on a situation.

Do you think there is even a small possibility that AJ can get the Eric slot lynched based on Eric's actions? He already has 3 votes on him for insinuating it.

[Hiraki]

frank actually made a very good post while still being a lurker but i can understand being under pressure with bad votes

do you mind posting anything more substantial frank or is this gonna be commonplace still?

[Hiraki]

ty for reinforcing my read on you Ari

if deadline gets under 5 hours and there's no consensus on anyone else (i won't be voting AJ) then you should hammer me even if you think i'm the good guy, no lynch isn't good in this situation much moreso than yesterday

[Hiraki]

AJ hasn't even given his summary yet and hasn't done anything that's actually scummy. See my discussion with xSonia on the difference between what he said and what people think he said.

I don't see how you can scumread Vedith fairly so I don't know how to defend that.

@nacho: Yeah but we're at a little more than a day and 6 hours with xSonia already declaring intent - there's a point where you gotta understand that even though Gamma is literally the scummiest person in the game, you gotta die for him to be lynched D3 wink wink nudge nudge

I'm not going to hop over to the other wagon because it might be nicer

@xSonia - I've been the leading wagon for about the entire day (so about a week now) but this was before you replaced in so I can understand why you didn't see that

[Hiraki]

oh - don't get me wrong, I 100% agree with you Sonia - we should play sometime in a better game

[Hiraki]

you know what Nacho - I

really

don't believe in the case you've provided but Gamma isn't going to help anyone and I'd rather not vote myself - let's make things interesting; if they go bad - oh well, im willing to take a risk on your confirmed dime. would kind of ruin things if Sonia hammered but I think that was psuedo inevitable anyway

Vote: AJ

(L-2 just FYI)

if you want a very very soft town defense, it came from HF hard reading IO as scum for

literally

no reason - I don't see scumHF doing that. i don't think AJ's current actions are terrible enough for a lynch or even a BW - i would really rather something more substantial

Jumping on the aj wagon would make him look worse and he knows that

smugsmug

[Hiraki]

thank you for letting me know that

[Hiraki]

I've been disinterested because this day should've been over with already. I hope Sonia follows through and we can move on.

But I swear guys! I'm not a tunneler! I have no grievances against the person who lead the BW on me yesterday!!! )))

Watch how Lil Uzi doesn't do anything tomorrow too. I'm sure being silent and watching the game makes things very productive ))))

[Hiraki]

start thinking buddy