In post 1781, pieguyn wrote:I mean, I made it explicit I think both drealz and Varsoon are scum and that specifically their interactions look like scum/scum in that post, so.
(will respond to other things later)
If you think Drealz is scum why are you doing everything in your power to get people to compromise on Varsoon or Dwlee?
ah yes, beeboy style reads;
if this person flips town, then i'll townread them. - Nahdia
Dwlee has been sufficiently useless and boring, when I expect a lot more, that I could switch to him from drealz if needed. I think I'd rather lynch drealz first tho.
http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Mhsmith0
Conq: you, sir, are great at being town.
BATMAN: Only jugg was the only one we didn’t scum read at least not me
Quick: There is little to no chance this slot is Power-Wolfing.
SR: I want to give him a day
Life is simply unfair, don't you think?
In post 1803, beeboy wrote:If you think Drealz is scum why are you doing everything in your power to get people to compromise on Varsoon or Dwlee?
I wouldn't complain about a drealz lynch; I just want a Varsoon lynch because he is very obviously scum and I do not want to risk myself being killed N1 and then him convincing you all that he somehow isn't scum and worming his way out of it, which he *will* attempt to do (especially with people like Wisdom in the game who are pretty much playing to a scum win con). dwlee is just what my kindred spirit wants, plus I think what I said about Varsoon also applies to him.
In post 1803, beeboy wrote:If you think Drealz is scum why are you doing everything in your power to get people to compromise on Varsoon or Dwlee?
I wouldn't complain about a drealz lynch; I just want a Varsoon lynch because he is very obviously scum and I do not want to risk myself being killed N1 and then him convincing you all that he somehow isn't scum and worming his way out of it, which he *will* attempt to do (especially with people like Wisdom in the game who are pretty much playing to a scum win con). dwlee is just what my kindred spirit wants, plus I think what I said about Varsoon also applies to them.
In post 1782, pieguyn wrote:also ftr, if I was scum with drealz I probably would not have taken the "soft defend but never explicitly declare a town read" approach to his wagon - that is something I actually actively avoid doing as scum because it's something that I know a lot of people immediately look for and it isn't beneficial (see: the wagon on him coming up again now). I am sure that anyone who has seen me play scum knows that I'm more than capable of, and will not hesitate to, hard defend my partners if I feel it necessary to defend them.
Yeah, IIRC in my first ever scum game I tried this and failed. What I did was I objected to the initial logic because it was not very condemning.
<Embrace The Void>
“A flipped coin doesn't always land heads or tails. Sometimes it may never land at all...”
In post 1803, beeboy wrote:If you think Drealz is scum why are you doing everything in your power to get people to compromise on Varsoon or Dwlee?
I wouldn't complain about a drealz lynch; I just want a Varsoon lynch because he is very obviously scum and I do not want to risk myself being killed N1 and then him convincing you all that he somehow isn't scum and worming his way out of it, which he *will* attempt to do (especially with people like Wisdom in the game who are pretty much playing to a scum win con). dwlee is just what my kindred spirit wants, plus I think what I said about Varsoon also applies to him.
You make Varsoon sound like Wisdom.
<Embrace The Void>
“A flipped coin doesn't always land heads or tails. Sometimes it may never land at all...”
I caught you Im so mad nahdia Im still mad I will never not be mad.
My reads right now are pisskop town dreal scum varsoon townish cakez scum wisdom eh?? beeboy town luna town gamma null nahdia null
http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Mhsmith0
Conq: you, sir, are great at being town.
BATMAN: Only jugg was the only one we didn’t scum read at least not me
Quick: There is little to no chance this slot is Power-Wolfing.
SR: I want to give him a day
Life is simply unfair, don't you think?
now that the thread has slowed down and i don't have to be consistently checking the latest pages for new posts, i'm giving a proper response to this
In post 1681, beeboy wrote:Ok Pie tell me what I am missing about your Varsoon case.
1. You think his Drealz push was shit.
2. You don't like how he was ok rushing the day phase.
3. You think that he should have continued to tunnel Drealz after the nurse.
it isn't just that the drealz push is bad, although i think that's also significant for reasons i'll get into shortly
it's that this entire game - or at least the entire game until i called him on doing this. he went around and did doing other things around the p50-60 range, though i think a lot of what he did was just busywork and it would not surprise me in the slightest if he did it as a deliberate adjustment to me pointing out that he was doing this - he's just been hyper-focused on his "scum reads" without attempting to pay any attention to anything else in the game. yes, town players can have strong reads, and town players can get caught up in tunnel arguments, but that doesn't mean that they just sit there and *completely* tune out everything else in the game. any player who is not complete shit at the game will actually, you know, attempt to solve the game they are playing. they might feel very strongly one person is scum and not want a lynch on anyone else. they might even feel it's not necessary to focus *too* much effort into looking for scum elsewhere. but at the end of the day it is still there
Varsoon, on the other hand, wasn't doing this, at all. there was no indication that he was attempting to scum hunt outside of his two "scum reads" on drealz and Aero for the entire first ~40 pages of the game. i could pull quotes to show this, but it's apparent enough if you just read his ISO from the top - up until 1281 (the exact point where he saw me criticizing him because the way he was being hyper-focused on his two reads was not a town approach) there is quite literally no attempt to push anyone besides drealz or Aero. there are a few isolated questions, like there was maybe one question to you, but there is nothing that ties any of it together or suggests that he's factoring it into his view of the gamestate at all.
this is more likely to come from scum than town. if you really need me to answer why... scum need to generate content, scum need to look like they're scum hunting, scum need to appear like they have genuine conviction in their scum reads, and what better way to do that than to just pick one or two people who you can come up with some half-reasonable angle on and spend every single post just shitting all over them? as i said, town might feel strongly about a read but not like this - there is still awareness of other things that are going on in the game, even if they choose not to focus as much on them. there is none here. absolutely none
i also think the content of the reads themselves are just bad and not like anything i would ever expect from any half-competent town player but i will get into that in the next quote
In post 1681, beeboy wrote:1. I just don't think it was as Drealz was literally doing nothing.
whether a push is "bad", in this context, has nothing to do with whether it's correct or not. it's to do with the mindset of the person making the push - whether the things they're picking up on and saying actually make a reasonable amount of sense for someone to think. Varsoon's read on him does not, even if drealz is "literally doing nothing".
i'm going to pull quotes of his to demonstrate what i mean here
Spoiler:
In post 231, Varsoon wrote:Nahdia dropping an unexplained vote my direction after Dwlee okay's the wagon is something I can look over, like, "Okay, hm. Sure. Maybe there's something going on there."
But Beefboy sheeping after I call out the Aero sheep? Poor form.
Notably, Drealz didn't even answer me yet despite replying in thread twice, and you'd think someone so giddy would care to say something when directly addressed. VOTE: Drealz
Stop talking about things that aren't thing game.
the reasoning in this post basically amounts to "drealz didn't answer me when i asked him if he was scum, so he's scum", which is a pretty awful reason. i really hope that i do not have to explain this. there is no reason drealz would feel it necessary to answer it as town, since questions like that are usually pretty obviously not serious, and even if he was scum there is no reason he *wouldn't* have responded to it.
In post 276, Varsoon wrote:@Cakez: I had to see an answer before laying a vote down. Sometimes, shitty scum is just shitty scum.
Look at this. Drealmerz has shit up over half the pages so far with discussion that's tertiary to the game at hand.
When asked to get back on point, he doesn't at all, skirting quickly around a question about his alignment, directly, here and now, as if it were an awkward thing to engage with.
Then, when called out on that, he quickly goes into attack mode against a slot he had no previous qualms with.
Curious, no?
In post 231, Varsoon wrote:
Notably, Drealz didn't even answer me yet despite replying in thread twice, and you'd think someone so giddy would care to say something when directly addressed. VOTE: Drealz
Stop talking about things that aren't thing game.
I actually only saw it when I went back over (missed a few posts actually) and read, and was like "mehh" to answering it
I mean...really? Looks like you're just fishing to make shit up too.
Looks like you're just blowing smoke and making the thread a pain in the ass for people to read.
Insisting on discussion that's only tertiary doesn't help in the slightest. You want to go have a mafia discussion thread? Don't do it here.
Focusing on the game is hardly 'making shit up', and the 'too' there comes of as a rhetorical slip--either you're using it in addition to you considering my previous question something to not answer, which is admission that you'd rather discuss these tangential topics than the nature of your own alignment, or you're using 'too' to imply that someone else is making shit up, which, in this case, would be you.
Now, please, I eagerly await your half-cocked rebuttal.
Cakez pointed this out, but this post felt like a huge overreaction. i don't really see what prompted him to be this set off about drealz's behavior - he is reacting like this because he wants people to read his posts and think "o, look how angry he is, he genuinely believes in his read"
I just ISOd you and you're bitching at my contributions and...those are yours??...
This is a garbage OMGUS attempt at revitalizing a wagon that started to lose pressure.
If this is your attempt at contributing to the game, it's all bluster and no actual work involved.
You ISO'd me? What'd you take umbrage with? OH, nothing? You just wanted a poor excuse to make it look like you're making an informed vote?
Eat rope.
again, the hostility here is really unwarranted. he is reacting like this because he wants people to read his posts and think "o, look how angry he is, he genuinely believes in his read"
In post 570, Varsoon wrote:Town, I'd imagine, wouldn't be so dodgy when initially prompted about their alignment--at that point, drealz was heading the conversation. I sought to drive the rhetorical power away from that.
Furthermore, I don't see town being so late in their vote on me. When the initial votes swapped over to me as it was clear the Aeronaut wagon was losing traction, those made sense. Drealz' vote came after the fact, in a place that feels scum to me.
Finally, Drealz posts against me, while they may be mostly NAI, don't ever seek to vindicate the points I make against Drealz. It's this all-out attack, and, most of it, a redirect of very early points I made against Drealz. This tells me that, for some reason, those early criticisms are what stood out and what drealz takes offense to. Which, likely, means that they're on-point.
this is the third time Varsoon has brought up drealz "dodging a direct question about his alignment" and acting like it somehow is some major piece of evidence, despite it in reality being really stupid. do you see a pattern? this is not a genuine read - he needs to generate content, he needs to look like he's scum hunting, and what better way to do that than to find some angle to nitpick on (drealz "dodging a direct question about his alignment") and spending every post shitting all over him for it. i would *maybe* be OK with it if it was more of a starting point to poke and push him for reactions, at which point he developed a proper read, but that is not what he is doing here. he is stating, in no uncertain terms, that he thinks drealz not answering the question is an actual scum tell that is worth pushing.
.
.
.
i could pull more quotes, but the rest is largely the same. the way Varsoon is going about pushing the drealz read is beyond nonsensical and i really do not understand how people can read it and think that the things he is writing are things anyone would actually think, even if drealz does happen to be "doing nothing"
In post 1681, beeboy wrote:2. This is an opinion other players have expressed including what appears to be one of your top town reads Nahdia and something I would have been ok with if no one had a problem with it. I am pretty sure other players shared this opinion as well.
i think your memory has gone wrong somewhere. what happened was basically
1. Nahdia and a few other people were convinced that they had found scum in drealm, and so they wanted to end the day.
2. i come back and start talking a bit more about {Varsoon, dwlee}.
3. i ask for some more time so that i can pursue these reads a bit more rigorously.
4. at this point, you have someone who isn't satisfied with the status quo and most people are starting to consider reads that they weren't considering before, so it doesn't make as much sense to end the day quickly. the correct reaction here is to wait. at this point, Nahdia came back and said they no longer wanted to rush the day. mhsmith0 stated that he wanted a bit more time as well. you, i recall, seemed pretty ok with the idea of ending the day quickly but as far as i can tell lost that "lynch lynch lynch" lust around the 900-1000 range or so.
Varsoon, though? explicitly saw me asking for more time and said "nope, let's go ahead and lynch". at that point, that just isn't fucking town, no matter how you look at it. ending days quickly in certain scenarios is fine. i actually think a lot of games could benefit from not being dragged on to the extent that they are. but when there are multiple people in the game with half-formed reads who are asking for more time to actually develop proper reads, you're going too fast - waiting for a bit and allowing them to do so, to a reasonable extent, is just common sense.
for him to be town with that mindset, he has to be either inconsiderate enough to not give a shit about other people being able to play the game properly, or he has to be just completely dense. he is not either of these things - he is scum and he took that stance because he is attempting to play a really aggressive scum game, where he tries to come off as having a lot of "genuine conviction in his scum reads" but he isn't realizing that in reality what he's attempting to do is just plain stupid and not something he'd think is a good idea as town
In post 1681, beeboy wrote:I also don't think it is safe to assume in a non role madness game as a back-up nurse both the nurse and the doctor would be town with almost no knowledge about the actual setup as there was mostly just dead VTs iirc.
i actually went to double-check what you were saying here and what you're describing here isn't what is going on. i am not making the argument that Varsoon saw the nurse claim as a town claim and decided to back off (since this isn't *actually* what happened here - he has stated in no uncertain terms that he didn't buy that the claim made him town)
what i'm saying is that even though Varsoon claimed he didn't buy the claim, his entire treatment of drealz became noticeably different after drealz claimed and the wagon started to fall apart. drealz claimed in 1312, and as i was saying earlier in this post Varsoon was laser-focused on him pretty much the entire time up to here. after the claim, though? these are the kinds of things Varsoon was saying about him...
Spoiler:
In post 1402, Varsoon wrote:@Luna: But I don't see anyone scumreading you over it--a lot of people are just taking it as playstyle difference/misunderstanding/frustration.
There's a lot of other ways to be critical of your slot that would paint Beeboy in a more town-looking light if he were scum, too.
I guess what I'm saying is that I don't find Beeboy's responses to you to be critical enough of your alignment, just your play.
@Drealz: Why can't cakez and I be the same alignment?
In post 1401, SirCakez wrote:Because Varsoon has spent the entire game tunneling a PR? (I'm assuming dreal is town)
Misreppin' hard, bro.
Why are you treating the claim as if it's 100% factual and that, somehow, I knew that?
Why are you insisting on the 'Varsoon is tunneling' meme?
In post 1402, Varsoon wrote:I don't find Beeboy's responses to you to be critical enough of your alignment, just your play.
Then you need to read his ISO better.
Guess so?
I mean, I've been following along in real time.
Regardless.
Outside of Beeboy, what are your thoughts on the game as of now?
I'm curious what your weigh-in on the whole Drealz/Varsoon thing is, obviously, but also--how do you feel about the Wisdom/Cakez back and forth? Both of these seem to be fairly major points of contention right now and I'm not 100% on where you stand on either.
In post 1413, Varsoon wrote:How does the Drealz claim change your read on Drealz?
supporting me in your wagon advance and the read I have on you
scum doesn't do that because I have no traction
does it make sense? I really need to head off
I guess so?
Scum bussing aside (which would be garbage play from Cakez, imo), I'm trying to understand why you see him as town pushing me as scum and it'd take my flip to see it as scum pushing town. I understand, from your read on me, why you think we're both not town, and, given what you've illuminated, why you think if I was town, he'd be scum for pushing me like that.
In post 1415, Luna Fox wrote:more on the thing that im not willing to lynch someone that MAY BE a backup doctor on D1.
Survivalistic claiming aside,
Why?
Do you think the game would be designed such that town all have town-looking roles when claimed, especially stuff like Backup IC, and scum don't?
In post 1434, Varsoon wrote:@Drealmerz: I think you're actually a Nurse/Backup-Doctor, for what it's worth.
In post 1441, Varsoon wrote:Given how flippant Drealz is about everything else, I don't think he'd claim something that wasn't handed to him by the mod.
@Cakez: What games, though?
In post 1453, Varsoon wrote:It kinda bothers me that Drealz is trying to get me to wagon-hop onto a townread of mine by promising towncred for it.
Like.
Whut
In post 1675, Varsoon wrote:@Pieguyn: Dude, I laid out plenty why I thought Drealz was scum based on play.
Drealz didn't even produce a reads list when put at L-1, just a long, played out claim--and you know how I feel about claims, and I made it explicit how I feel about Drealz' claim.
I still want a Drealz lynch, but it seems like other people are too divided between voting me or voting Cakez. Cakez is another scumread of mine. I'm willing to compromise to that wagon. I've stated this explicitly as well.
What's particularly bothersome, Pieguyn, is that you and others were critical of how much I focused on Drealz. Now, the second that I'm not doing that and, furthermore, absent from the game (sleeping, hanging out with friends, etc.) you're playing it against me?
Even when put to L-1, Drealz wouldn't take the pressure to actually generate content. Me sitting on that wagon was providing nothing, either. But, please, illuminate me on how shitty my play is and how I should be lynched, because, apparently, I should've just kept tunneling Drealz, even though you've already outlined how shitty and scum that is.
Damned if I do, damned if I don't, doesn't it seem? You're really content to cross your arms and just call my play shit, over and over. It's obnoxious.
this is pretty much everything he had to say about drealz, and the thing that is the most striking about this to me is that the drealz wagon had pretty thoroughly collapsed in the 1400-1500 range or so... but despite not buying that the claim made him town, there are absolutely no calls to get votes back on him. absolutely no frustration that this huge scum read who he was so frustrated with earlier seems to be losing votes for a claim that isn't town. absolutely no conviction at all, when you would think that at this point he would have the *most* conviction to follow through on his read. it isn't consistent, at all, and it's a large part of the reason i think Varsoon is highly likely scum *with* drealz, but it's scummy in its own right.
so no, if you want to read this post and point out where i'm going wrong in this then i would be receptive to it but if you're just going to keep saying "lel Varsoon is town" then you have absolutely no leg to stand on
i would like people who think Varsoon is town to actually read what i'm writing about him and think about it and point out where i'm going wrong if they don't agree with it
i would like people who think Cakez is scum to do the same
because, believe it or not, "lol he's town" "lol he's scum" are not good ways of forming reads. i have not seen anyone so much as attempt to explain a scum reads on Cakez and it is really embarrassing that people can look at it and somehow think that a lot of people going "lol he's scum" is a good basis for forming a read...
In post 1673, beeboy wrote:Cakez I may support and I will elaborate on that tomorrow but I am back and forth on this one, I don't think he is playing to his scum meta at all but it also feels like he is going overboard in terms of his town meta.
i also want to say that i think this rather paranoid
it takes a certain kind of scum player to be able to be aware of their town meta and their scum meta, and actually turn their entire scum game around in a game by not only faking all of the things you would find in their town game, but incorporating _more_ aspects of their town game than they usually would as town. i think i'm a pretty meta-aware scum player but i'm not able to do it to that extent - even when i want to manipulate my meta, i usually am able to just get by by avoiding most behaviors that i think people attribute to my scum game.
i think this might hold more water if Cakez is the kind of scum player who has implied an ability to be able to do that but... no offense to Cakez but given how overt a lot of the scum tells he committed in magical girls were (even if he was able to figure out some pretty effective ways to look town that game), i don't know if he's quite at that point with his scum game
Brian Skies - "I just wanna say Cakez is an evil mod and this is an evil setup."
