Mini 1856 - This Mafia Game is for pieguyn (Game Over)

[Nahdia]

UNVOTE:

[pieguyn]

Pie you really have no clue how to read me. I dont do any of the things you mentioned when I roll scum. Or if I do theyre definitely not alignment indicative. I am gonna be "responsible," do my homework that I need to, take a break from league and play this game tonight.

i don't think anything i wrote has anything to do with play style but if you want to correct me go ahead

[pieguyn]

UNVOTE:

where are you currently leaning?

[SirCakez]

Well the reasons are already in the thread

Only after I called you out

Pie is seeing all the same things about Varsoon
@dreal voters
Do you really think he would keep trolling here like he has been if he was scum?

[Wisdom]

yes

[Wisdom]

also cakez is still scum

[Nahdia]

UNVOTE:

where are you currently leaning?

leaning towards not rushing the day.

gimmie some time to read those 10 pages i kickflipped over and maybe actually give some fleshed out opinions on the options you've put forward.

[SirCakez]

The correct answer is lolno

[Aeronaut]

Beeboy why are you for lynching Drealz but against lynching version

[Aeronaut]

better question is why is Drealz worse to you outside of "he feels worse"

[Wisdom]

still dont like Aero's attitude towards the dreal wagon
supposedly a scumread yet he criticizes people on it as if it's a townread
could see him being a dreal buddy too

[Dwlee99]

a lot of dwlee's reads don't feel naturally formed; they feel like they're designating scum reads and coming up with reasons to push them afterward. the read on drealz is one example of this: it amounted to drealz being scum for "noise", which is a kind of push i hate because it's entirely to do with policy and nothing to do with his actual play; there's nothing in there that suggests dwlee is actually attempting to sort and think critically about drealz

I was having trouble forming reads and drealz's posting was absolute garbage and total noise. I'll give you the last sentence cause you're right I haven't put everything into this game but I think you're smart enough to know effort =/= being town and low effort =/= being scum.

it's the kind of thing scum focuses on when they want to give the impression that someone needs to die because they're not playing optimally. arguments like that are usually really safe arguments to push because it's really easy for town players to get pissed off and say "fuck it, i agree" instead of thinking too hard about it - and even if they don't, people usually don't fault the aggressor for pushing them because what they're saying is (objectively) true

That

can

be a thing could push because of those reasons but you're just fitting it to a scum narrative. You say "this argument is safe to push" and "people usually don't fault the aggressor" and then attach a scum agenda to it. Conditional probability: If someone is scum they are likely to push these arguments. But someone pushing these arguments does not (necessarily) make them more likely to be scum.

the read on Cakez-kun i don't take quite as much issue with, but i still don't think his interpretation of the post (second quote in 240) is all that great. lining up lynches is definitely a thing scum does, but it isn't what Cakez-kun was doing - what Cakez-kun was doing was seeing a notable momentum shift onto someone he thought was town and making the assumption there had to be a scum on it. i don't think there's anything unreasonable there and i don't see why that would catch anyone's attention to that extent unless they had a previous scum read on the slot, which i don't think dwlee did

I saw a false dichotomy I didn't like. Cakez posting afterwards made me realize I didn't think it through too much and it probably wasn't alignment indicative so I backed off.

a lot of this also has to do with timing: all of their scum reads/pushes (drealz, Gamma, Cakez-kun) have mostly appeared along with these people becoming leading/viable wagons. i think they're also being not very proactive in terms of explaining their reads in general, their reaction to Gamma (172) and their Cakez-kun read being two examples of this - that was pretty much all of the effort they put into explaining either of those reads, and in particular, for Cakez-kun being a strong enough read to vote, there was... like... no effort beyond the one post they called out to actually push or question or refine the read on him. i don't get the impression they're interested in pushing anything besides targets they know they can safely push

I think you're smart enough to know effort =/= being town and low effort =/= being scum.

I see this a lot when I'm town as well where people go through this whole thing where they're like "Dwlee would be looking for something safe to push when he's scum!!" when I don't even think that deeply about my play. Anyone who tries to pin these super deep thoughtful motives to my actions and calls me scum for it doesn't understand my scum play (or any of my play for that matter).

[Dwlee99]

don't like pie trying to call the scum team by just going after the low effort players but their claim /shrug
inb4 "omgus"

[beeboy]

Well the reasons are already in the thread

Only after I called you out

Pie is seeing all the same things about Varsoon
@dreal voters

Do you really think he would keep trolling here like he has been if he was scum?

That literally makes Drealz more likely to be scum. Scum are perfectly capable of committing to a game plan. I feel like trolling town would be a lot more likely to stop if there lynch was becoming inedivitable since that is very much against there win con but he probably just feels like scum who has already committed to a game plan and is hoping to get town read out of it. (Although it could just be null) Like i literally made a point of playing horribly at times in Gistou because I thought it would get our a lot town read (and it did)

[beeboy]

better question is why is Drealz worse to you outside of "he feels worse"

I don't think Varsoon's Drealz read is as bad as what you and the other people voting Varsoon probably think it is. (which is obvious because I am voting Drealz)

Drealz's being
- making up excuses to not play like his "I don't do demands" and "I don't explain tonal reads" thing
- "I won't listen to demands" to avoid interacting with people followed up by "town would be smart enough to stop pushing me" thing just feels really fake because if his theory was scum would tunnel him theory is flawed if he gives the people interacting with him no reason to town read him.
- I don't know where half of his thoughts even come from
- not doing shit while being at l-1 and l-2

[beeboy]

I would have to reread his Aero read because maybe there is something horrible there I haven't seemed to pick up on yet but I really don't think Varsoon is more likely to be scum then Drealz is.

[beeboy]

And if this is just Varsoon busing like pie said was possible and they are both scum then I fail to see the issue with a Drealz lynch

[beeboy]

I just don't see any of the town in Drealz's post when stubborn VI is a very easy thing for scum to fake especially if it lines up with there town meta.

[beeboy]

better question is why is Drealz worse to you outside of "he feels worse"

I don't think Varsoon's Drealz read is as bad as what you and the other people voting Varsoon probably think it is. (which is obvious because I am voting Drealz)

Me on Drealz
- making up excuses to not play like his "I don't do demands" and "I don't explain tonal reads"
- "I won't listen to demands" to avoid interacting with people followed up by "town would be smart enough to stop pushing me" theoey just feels seems really fake because if his theory was scum would tunnel i don't see what he expects town to do when he gives them no reason to town read him.
- I don't know where half of his thoughts even come from
- not doing shit while being at l-1 and l-2

I hope I made that more readable lol

[pieguyn]

I was having trouble forming reads and drealz's posting was absolute garbage and total noise. I'll give you the last sentence cause you're right I haven't put everything into this game but I think you're smart enough to know effort =/= being town and low effort =/= being scum.

um... posts like 183 don't seem to imply that it's a "having trouble forming reads" thing, that seems like it would imply "I have a scum read on you because you're generating noise for scum to hide under". the rest of your treatment of him this game, like... the fact that he appears to be your preferred lynch... implies the same thing. I also think that you're a smart enough player to know that "noise" does not necessarily mean scum and that's a large part of why I don't like the fact that you have focused on it the entirety of this game day without attempting to refine the read any further - it isn't about high effort or low effort, it's that I don't buy that you would just declare "scum because noise" and leave it at that.

if you think the actual content in his posts are garbage irrespective of how noisy they are, I'd like to hear why (my read on him based on his posts is almost entirely null since I can't parse them at all). if I'm wrong in my interpretation of your read on him and you mostly just wanted him out of the game, I'd like to hear what your current picks for scum actually are, since that's another issue in itself (if you need a bit of time to read the thread and answer this that's fine).

That can be a thing could push because of those reasons but you're just fitting it to a scum narrative. You say "this argument is safe to push" and "people usually don't fault the aggressor" and then attach a scum agenda to it. Conditional probability: If someone is scum they are likely to push these arguments. But someone pushing these arguments does not (necessarily) make them more likely to be scum.

the main bulk of my issue is what I wrote in the first paragraph of this post and this is why I don't think the read is likely to come from you as town. the fact that it has advantages for scum is just an extra benefit that makes me think it is something you would reasonably do (I am sure you know that if you can't figure out the scum motivation for something, you likely should hesitate to push it as a scum tell even if you're not sure they would do it as town)

I'm curious as to what gives you the impression Varsoon is a low-effort player this game. besides that, if you want me to explain a specific read, feel free to ask.

[pisskop]

is dreal L-1?

[beeboy]

L-2

[pisskop]

If he is/was why has nobody hammered or asked for a claim?


p: Hes an acceptable lynch. Lets get a claim or dothis brutus

[beeboy]

We did but he gave us a YouTube video instead of a claim

[pisskop]

Then Lynch his ass.