Mini Normal 1854: Game Over

[Vedith]

Yeah I don't like Fritz in the posts to you there (from the responses). He's clearly trying to twist things to just throw shade.
I'm at my PC tonight and I'm going to post more on this tonight.

[Dierfire]

VOTE COUNT 1.10

Creeps20 (4): ScumDeersAreVeryTasty, Hiraki, Aristophanes, Gamma Emerald
Hiraki (4): Lil Uzi Vert, MisaTange, Eric Rasputin, TwoFace
Lil Uzi Vert (1): TheseViolentDelights
TwoFace (1): havingfitz
ScumDeersAreVeryTasty (1): Creeps20

No Vote (2): FrankJaeger, Vedith

With 13 players living, 7 votes are required to lynch.

TIMER

(expired on 2016-11-30 16:30:00)

NOTES

Prodded FrankJaeger
Prodded TheseViolentDelights
Prodded Lil Uzi Vert
Prodded ScumDeersAreVeryTasty
Gamma Emerald V/LA until 16 December (normal activity/prod requirements will apply)

[ScumDeersAreVeryTasty]

"He isnt scum because it is obvious" is crap.

I voted Creeps because I wanted answer from him and he hasnt yet answered them which is annoying me because I cant get moving.

Creeps, Quit screwing answer the damn question.

[TwoFace]

"He isnt scum because it is obvious" is crap.

I voted Creeps because I wanted answer from him and he hasnt yet answered them which is annoying me because I cant get moving.

Creeps, Quit screwing answer the damn question.

You're questions arent that great though. It's not like they were so important they were going to somehow solve the game. 1 is really a rhetorical question so you're voting him for not answering one meaningless question when we have deadlines coming.

Is him refusing to answer alignment indicative? If yes how?

[Creeps20]

"He isnt scum because it is obvious" is crap.

I voted Creeps because I wanted answer from him and he hasnt yet answered them which is annoying me because I cant get moving.

Creeps, Quit screwing answer the damn question.

Don't feel like it. Now then one thing to point out.

You played on the supercell forums and so played with me right? How much times am I scum-read and was town. Considering I was only scum twice. I had to claim each and every time to avoid being lynched or shot. See my point?

[Gamma Emerald]

My reasons for voting Creeps are that if he is scum he is using poor play as a smokescreen, and if he is town he is giving power to scum, especially by distrusting the confirmed masons.

[Vedith]

My reasons for voting Creeps are that if he is scum he is using poor play as a smokescreen, and if he is town he is giving power to scum, especially by distrusting the confirmed masons.

That's a stupid reason.
If he's town, you're giving scum power by voting him.
Maybe I don't understand you here?

Thoughts on Fritz / Hariki?

[Hiraki]

VOTE: hiraki

People abandoned scum for a policy lynch. I'll go fo his buddy.

lol

yes, its the same reason I tr eric. almost always ends in a mislynch. i dont policy lynch, you shouldnt either.

i gave reasons, i'm not policy lynching

Saying just enough to stay relevant while not really saying anything relevant.

i literally comment on just about everything that's important in this game - in fact, i'd like you to find something very important that i should've commented on but didn't

i'll be v honest, that is something i consistently do as scum and town, feel free to read my meta, i don't lurk unless im actually busy (as I was last weekend due to thanksgiving)

Plus I thought it was odd hiraki outlined his reads on basically everyone but him and tvd.

???

can you get off me now because this is a useless vote tbqh

He isn't really doing much though

yeah?

i didn't start discussion about how eric is newb town?

i didn't start discussion on lil uzi?

i didn't engage you on why misa might be scum?

when i have 44 posts in a 20ish page game and 24 of them (just counted) are basically one-reply posts, the other 20 posts are actually pretty relevant

I don't know if I can explain it any better so your simple mind can understand

really? are you OK dude? maybe this is why you called yourself twoface???

If this is your attitude the entire time, I can see why people didn't put time in to listen to you or take you seriously.

quite honestly no that's the weirdest thing

were you just being v sarcastic when you said take your time????

i can't comment on fitz more than I already have but I can say he's more of a competent player to blantantly just not talk about two people

Thoughts on Fritz / Hariki?

gamma's reasons are pretty bad but ill take what I can get at this point because i'd rather a lynch than NL

i posted about this like 2 posts ago - is it my most convincing case? no, not really but it's something

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p8551857

[TwoFace]

In post 511, TwoFace wrote:
Plus I thought it was odd hiraki outlined his reads on basically everyone but him and tvd.
???

can you get off me now because this is a useless vote tbqh

This had a typo. Should say fitz outlined his reads.

I'll respond to the rest when I get to my computer but basically no I won't remove my vote.

[Gamma Emerald]

My reasons for voting Creeps are that if he is scum he is using poor play as a smokescreen, and if he is town he is giving power to scum, especially by distrusting the confirmed masons.

That's a stupid reason.
If he's town, you're giving scum power by voting him.
Maybe I don't understand you here?

Thoughts on Fritz / Hariki?

Scum would not want him dead. By distrusting the masons, he essentially removes their ability to avoid being lynched if we're in LyLo, as him + scum team equals majority. I don't want someone who could throw LyLo to survive for any amount of time. And there's still the possibility he's scum hiding under poor play.
I've already expressed I feel that fitz is scummy. Not sure on Hiraki.

[Gamma Emerald]

OK just looking at Hiraki's last post I'm not very pleased by what he's saying. Specifically his ad hominem attack on TF.

[MisaTange]

Plus I thought it was odd hiraki outlined his reads on basically everyone but him and tvd.

???

can you get off me now because this is a useless vote tbqh

@gamma: good point

also i feel like the quoted post is classic "not really answering the question" type thing

[Gamma Emerald]

I'd still prefer Creeps but I'll compromise on Hiraki

[TwoFace]

i'm not policy lynching

I didn't say you were. I said the last 2 votes on him were PL votes though, plus I think you are scum so that raises a red flag for me that the wagon is not a good one.

i literally comment on just about everything that's important in this game - in fact, i'd like you to find something very important that i should've commented on but didn't

yet nothing memorable stands out for me. seems more like iioa. If you have commented on important things and you ended up voting creeps, like shania twain once said. That don't impress me much.

i didn't start discussion about how eric is newb town?

i didn't start discussion on lil uzi?

i didn't engage you on why misa might be scum?

when i have 44 posts in a 20ish page game and 24 of them (just counted) are basically one-reply posts, the other 20 posts are actually pretty relevant

I don't remember you starting a conversation about eric is newb town. I remember you making a big post saying he is a newb and don't know if he is scum or not. can you link me to where you started the conversation on it?

I think Frank/Uzi were talking first and then you voted him. so I don't think you can get credit for that one.

I don't remember you engaging me on misa was scum, if you did it certainly didn't stand out as a memorable post

what does post count have to do with anything? You can post a lot or little and your posts can still read scummy to me, and they do.

btw I am fine, thanks for asking

[FrankJaeger]

Why is hiraki scum?
Can any one point me to some posts?
Same for creep.

Im not seeing it in hiraki. But ive just skimmed.
Maybe creep but not comfortable voting him until i can really look at this.

[TwoFace]

so who is scum?

[FrankJaeger]

Ohhhhh dont make me figure it out alone.
Fine Ill be back tonight with my own reads.

[havingfitz]

A lot of stuff to try to respond to. Since the person I am voting was nice enough to consolidate his efforts in post Post 420 I will give that a quick response and then work on anything else I see from page 16 and beyond.

WRT my Post 419...I had seen people repeatedly condemning me for assigning suspicion towards EVERYONE who voted/suspected the masons before they claimed. And I had also seen several people call me out for not assigning blame on myself (asinine) and my town reads. I had not noticed anyone state that the two assertions cannot exist at the same time. I.e. everyone =/= some.

Since I voted you in Post 350 you have stated or inferred that I am making the ~blanket assertion that anyone who voted or suspected a mason in bad (i.e. scum). You do this in Posts 357, 365, 371, 372, 380, 385...

In Post 391 you finally mention that two people I am town reading suspected the masons. Ding ding ding ding ding...this negates your "biggest problem" with my Post 349. Which is what I point out in my 419. Iirc Gamma and Ari had made similar assertions about me suspecting everyone who suspected the masons pre-claim.

But as shown in Post 516 you are still crying foul about my casting suspicions towards some of the people who voted the pre-claim masons. First off....in my Post 349 I do not say that anyone voted a mason they are automatically scum. The fact some people were voting masons was only one consideration in a list of, in most cases, multiple things I found suspect. You had 6 things listed that I did not care for. Gamma had 3... Eric had ~3... Ari had 3. Simply casting a vote or suspicions on a mason count not = a player being scum and was never said to equal that. Your continued focus on that one inaccurate assertion shows your case on me is baseless.

Question to you TwoFace. If I think at least 3 of the people who cast suspicions/votes on the masons pre claim are still town....does that mean I do or do not find everyone who cast suspicions/votes on the masons pre claim to be "automatically" scummy?

OK...back to your 420 questions...

Wrt Post 368...reading is key. I do not have that many posts. I already explained why I thought Eric's Post 140 was bad (see Post 178).

Wrt Post 372...this is an asinine question. Ex. If you are town and you are on 3 mislynches in a row....does that mean you are going to suddenly find yourself suspect? I know my alignment. I do not know yours. You voting a ~town player is cause for suspicion.

Wrt Post 389...I'm more interested in finding scum and seeing things I find suspect. As I glazed through the 50+ pages of my catch up post TVD and Hiraki came across as town to me. Call is gut. Others came across as suspect for me. I do not spend a lot of time defending people I do not 100% know are town. And my comments on LUV aren't so much a defense of TVD as they are a criticism for a very bad post by LUV. One of the reasons in fact I suspected him before his claim. Did you like LUV's Post 88?

Wrt Post 396...there is nothing fair or unfair about the way I assign my suspicions. Are you suggesting that if I find one person scummy for suspecting/voting the masons that I have to find everyone scummy who suspected/voted the masons? Because that's not what I was ever doing. And I already answered your question about me suspecting you for your naked vote on Misa. I did not. I mentioned you made a naked vote on a mason. Take out the word naked if you want. My issue was with you voting the mason (along with several other issues). Not with it being a naked vote. Comprehension is key.

More asap.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

If Hiraki flips town, we lynch Creeps tomorrow.

[FrankJaeger]

If Hiraki flips town, we lynch Creeps tomorrow.

Hold on there

[TwoFace]

I had seen people repeatedly condemning me for assigning suspicion towards EVERYONE who voted/suspected the masons before they claimed

The issue that I have with it (can't speak for others) is that the basis for it is very flawed because you seemed to discredit basically called everyone bad for voting or casting shade on a mason. This is a null action because this is something town and scum can do and you can't tell the difference. I didn't realize it at the time that you left hiraki and tvd off of your reads explanation which is why I didn't catch them the first time, and when I went to look at who all was voting uzi, I noticed both hiraki (reasonless vote when he casted it) and tvd (flat out called uzi scum) and it was weird they remained your top town reads, when neither had really done anything to earn it imo. If you disagree fine, but it's odd to me which is why I noted it and partly why I am SR'ing you.

this negates your "biggest problem"

If you would have done the same type of read breakdown and explained how their pro posts outweighed their con posts like you did for basically everyone else, maybe but leaving them off all together was very suspicious to me. Why make a reads list and explain your reads and leave off players? I get leaving off the claimed masons, but nobody else should have been left off imo

I do not say that anyone voted a mason they are automatically scum.

I don't think I said you did that, if that is the impression you got I apologize. What I was trying to say is you basically called any negative action toward a mason as bad, yet you don't seem to consider that 1. these actions could actually be legitimate from a town pov and 2. your logic could be flawed, scratch that because it is flawed. because you yourself suspected a mason and your top 2 town reads also suspected them. POE day 1 doesn't work so you have to treat everyone with the same type of suspicion, or it's flawed. you didn't do that

Wrt Post 368...reading is key

yes reading is key. because I want you to explain why do you think scum eric would intentionally say such a bad post when his objective is to avoid attention. So please answer

Thank you

Wrt Post 372...this is an asinine question

It really isn't. What I am trying to get you to do is admit your logic is flawed. If you were town right now I would expect you to at least concede your logic was flawed, because it is proven that it is flawed imo.

As I glazed through the 50+ pages of my catch up post TVD and Hiraki came across as town to me. Call is gut.

You took the time and effort to outlne other posts with pros and cons. please do the same for hiraki and tvd. That should not be an issue for you right? I'd like to lock you down on reasons so you don't do what you are accusing me of doing... backtracking. if you would oblige I would appreciate it.

Did you like LUV's Post 88?

I dont think I understand it, I would have to go back and read the conversation in context. But you can see how your response sort of looks like a defense of tvd, especially given now that we think that uzi is most likely town.

there is nothing fair or unfair about the way I assign my suspicions.

I disagree which is why I suspect you.


in a nut shell, right or wrong I think your reasons for scum reading people are all based on faulty logic, logic that makes more sense coming from manipulative scum vs an experienced townie. I also think that as soon as the masons claimed, you went to try and pocket them by making yourself look useful by going after the people that voted them. I think that the reason that you left tvd and hiraki out makes sense if the 3 of you are scum together. (hiraki calling tvd town after 1 post (99 also factors into it. That post is him coming to your defense and also questioning somebody scum reading hiraki.

If you aren't scum with those 2, that's fine but

You town read hiraki and tvd for no reason is weird
hiraki saying tvd is town for 1 post is weird, considering when that post seems to connect the dots on the 3 of you

[TwoFace]

@fitz

here is more stuff.

your post 178 - question gamma about TVD, question Uzi about his read on TVD, say to eric that he has as much of a chance of being scum as you and hiraki which is odd as fuck since this is your first mention of hiraki. (see the connections?) and you finish the post calling both of them town which basically means you were coming to their defense. Questioning people about people you town read is defending them imo

379 You say TVD is still a town read because he hasn't done anything to change your read, because he hasn't done anything since your last post (imo if you are town, that should actually worry you but since you never really explained your town read on him to begin with that really worries me.

Your interactions with hiraki are also weird. After you call him a town read (no idea why) you ask him a weird question in post 198 really looks like a fluff question
you also say you like hiraki because he zeroed in on uzi because you were also sr him which imo contradicts your post further down where now anyone voting a mason is somehow bad,'

the interactions between the 3 of you are suspect, if the 3 of you were masons I would get this interaction but since we know you aren't I can only think this is soft defending scum buddies and your lack of reasons means you can distance later if you need to.

that's why I want you to break down their posts for everyone, not just for me, I want the same sort of breakdown good/bad posts like you did to everyone else please

[TwoFace]

If Hiraki flips town, we lynch Creeps tomorrow.

idk if I agree with that but when hiraki flips scum we can lync one of fitz or tvd.

[Gamma Emerald]

OMFG someone vig TF or fitz tonight so the wall posts will stop.

[TwoFace]

Well if fitz would post more often and not do his wall posts, it would be easier to respond to. I won't be responding to anymore so don't worry about it.