Mini #534 - Vegetable Mafia (Game Over!)

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Vote: WhoMe?

bandwagon ftw

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You just broke the bandwagon. =(

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I need a new bandwagon, so I'll join the Oman one.

Unvote
Vote: Oman

diescumdie
Come on everybody, let's lynch Oman

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I don't think a self-vote is scummy, but I'm happy to get a wagon going on Oman anyway. It's good for discussion. And fun.

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It's 7 to lynch. We haven't had a wagon past 3. Nothing to be worried about. Maybe an L-1 or L-2 vote should be cause for concern, but that hasn't happened yet.

Yep, korran, soupfly and Crub haven't made a post yet.

Mod: Can they be prodded?

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Vote: Northjayhawk

Not really random. I don't like the way he made a semi-serious vote, called it a playful random vote and now he's unvoted it and gone back to Crub. Why?

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NORTHJAYHAWK NEEDS A BANDWAGON

QFT

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Vote: ryan

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So that's not random? Cool.

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Actually, wait, what the hell? That's not cool. Why are you voting for me?

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I think you're over-reacting to that.

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Veggietastic Vote Count!

ryan -- 5 (thinktank, kravhen, Oman, Crub, destructor)
Crub -- 2 (Northjayhawk, Y)
Y -- 1 (Phate)
Korran -- 1 (WhoMe?)
destructor -- 1 (soupfly)

Not Voting -- Korran, ryan

Now searching for a replacement for Korran.

Hmm, I didn't actually unvote before I voted for ryan, so he never made it to L-2...

He's got 3 votes on him right now.

My vote's still on Northjayhawk.

soupfly, I still wonder why you vote for me.

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Yeah, well that was a breadcrumb for me pointing out that I didn't unvote.

kravhen, I wouldn't say it was meant to lure anyone to anything. I just thought it'd be interesting to see how people reacted.

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You know what else is important? soupfly telling me why he voted for me.

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Unvote, Vote: destructor

Too many votes, too fast. Why would you add another?

Does you read thread?

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Eh?
That was a mod error. I already explain my post.

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So you're suggesting that I anticipated that the mod would ignore the rules for me, or something to that effect?

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wtf is wrong with you people? And the wagon on ryan was meant to be bad.

@ ryan, hmm, because I have no reason to believe a mod wouldn't follow their own rules, maybe?

@ WhoMe?, no

@ Phate, wtf. Your question was already answered in Post 99. Are you read thread?

@ Northjayhawk, see above.

@ kravhen, feel free to speculate, but there is no need for this, given that I already explained it in response to

your

question.

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I guess Post 99 didn't do it for ya, huh?

Why not? And, like kraven, I ask, what exactly

is

your case, anyway?

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And if he was really playing some cute little bullshit game to the tune of "Oh, but I didn't put the comma in the right place so it wasn't REALLLLY a vote so why are you mad?" I find that scummy. It looks like a fallback position for scum hoping for a quick lynch to me.

Phate, you're being a tool.

I'm following the rules. According to the voting mechanic as outlined in rules 3 and 4, you have to Unvote or the next vote you cast doesn't count. What the hell are you going on about saying that I

did

make a vote? No, according to the rules, I didn't. And yes, I was completely aware of this.

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Self wagons are like pointing a gun at your head

and then having 6 other guys grab the trigger too

Wagons on others are like pointing a gun at their head

and then having 6 other guys grab the trigger too

No one person on a wagon controls whether or not it hammers (i.e. the guns shoots), as anyone who comes off can be replaced and anyone can hammer. Your analogy fits MAD mafia or Bad Idea more than regular Mafia.

That's not exactly true. If someone's at L-1 and they're on their own wagon, Unvoting would take them back to L-2. There's no guarantee that there'd be another player willing to make up for that vote even if someone was willing to hammer back at L-1.

But in a random stage, I'm all up for self-voting.

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This isn't a newbie game. And Y's been a member here for almost two more years than you. What are you going on about?

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There are many things I don't like about the above post. One is that you seem to be using

anti-town

and

scummy

as interchangeable terms. Another is that you say that you think Oman and I 'have both done enough to be lynched'.

And short of a confession, 6 pages is a pretty short time to see a lynch. You seem quite eager, ryan.

While I'm at it:

Vote: destructor

I think this last exchange shows us scum. Time to hang scum man

Care to elaborate?

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However there was a comment earlier on Anti-town and scum and their lack of interchangeability which i disagree with. Anti-town is imo the same thing as scum and i fail to comprehend why anyone would think otherwise. If you are not helping town, you are taking away from town. Aka, if you were a townie taking away from town, you're play would make absolutely zero sense. However if you consider the position from a scum perspective, this position becomes entirely justified.

Not contributing to discussion in any way is anti-town but not necessarily scummy.
After not contributing to discussion, to jump onto the most popular bandwagon could be better described as scummy.
Does that do much to illustrate the difference for you?

Destructor: Why did you fake vote? I don't buy your claim that you wanted to see people's reactions.

You don't buy my answer? Why not? Is there some other answer you're expecting?

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I don't like this idea that it's somehow an argument against me that I 'ran the risk of causing a mod error'. How is it scummy for me to expect the mod not to run the game according to the rules? And if that is what you think I did, then you're not accusing me of being scum - you're accusing me of being a cheater.

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Anti-town means actions that are a detriment to the town.
Scummy refers more to the motivation of actions, ie, they were

intended

to hurt the town or benefit scum.
You can be anti-town without being scummy. I'd call tunnel-vision anti-town, but not scummy.

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I just did a reread. Heh, one of the first things I realised was that I didn't unvote before I voted for Northjayhawk. So my vote's actually still on Oman. I can't escape criticism for his. I admit that

that

was a mistake, but the ryan "vote" wasn't. It's my word against, well, nothing, really.

If anyone wonders about the brevity of my responses earlier - I felt no need to clutter the thread when I felt I'd already answered the questions being asked. Nothings really changed. I've noted those that seemed to pursue the questioning without reference to my prior explanation.

Also, that vote count Aimee posted was apparently completely screwed up. Besides the technically of my vote, kravhen and Phate's votes were both misplaced. According to my count, this is more like what it was at post 86:
Korran (1) - WhoMe?
ryan (4) - thinktank, Phate, Oman, Crub
Crub (2) - NJH, Y
Oman (1) - des
des (1) - soupfly
soupfly (1) - kravhen

Not voting (1) - Korran, ryan

Mod: Can you clarify the vote count at post 86, taking into account anyone that didn't unvote before placing a new vote?

ryan, I think you need to read your signature, but maybe even replace 'vote' with 'post'.

@ kravhen - I don't think you ever explained why you voted soupfly in Post 42.

@ Northjayhawk - In Post 48 you flesh out, in some detail, your issues with Oman. You say that you had a 'barely-random' vote on him, which doesn't ring true in light of this post. This becomes stranger when you take into account the fact that you returned a random vote to Crub. How random

was

your vote on Oman, really?

@ ryan - What do you think about thinktank, kravhen and Crub?

@ soupfly - Are you telling us that your 'original' vote, back in Post 41 was a pressure vote? Why pressure

me

then?

@ thinktank - In both Post 90 and Post 139 you suggest that the ryan wagon was questionable because of Oman's involvement in it. What I don't understand is why you think this, and exactly what it is about it that makes it 'scummy(?)'. Can you clarify this for us?

@ WhoMe?

I could be interested in a NorthJayHawk wagon.

Why didn't you just start it?

@ Y - Are you scum?


Based on how much I had noted, these players need more post:
Crub, Korran (LOLOL), Oman, soupfly, WhoMe?

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I had a question for Crub, too:

I think the bandwagon on you also served it's purpose with destructor's slip up.

Slip up? What kind of slip up? As scum or town? Why purpose did it serve if it made a townie slip up?

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Mod: I'm pretty sure my vote's still on Oman.

Well, Northjayhawk's leaving, so my questions for him won't do much anymore. I would point out though, that me calling his vote 'barely random' was a typo. I meant to write 'non-random'. My point stands. He explained it too much for it to be, as he described, "barely non-random'.

soupfly, got anything to say about what's happened in this game so far?

I'm quite happy to go either way with the veggie claim, but worry of the chance of outing power-roles. From the exchange between Phate and thedragonprincess, if we're to believe them, it seems that there

aren't

any duplicate roles, so claiming vanilla townie isn't so easy. But this seems game-breaking, which makes me wonder. If scum have safe claims, this achieves next to nothing for the town, while giving scum some info.

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ryan, I asked you a question back on page 8. Can you answer it?

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I don't understand what you mean by scum guiding. Can you explain that?

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1) Perhaps Y and his partners weren't on it at all?

Y and his partners? What are you saying here?

Actaully, Y, regarding Post 100, can you address the points Oman bought up?

Mod: Crub needs (cattle) prodding!

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I was asking more specifically about these:

I mean, its okay speculation, but it doesn't give a few things:

1. who is/isn't scum on the wagon in your opinion. 2. is ryan town or scum.

Both of which are ratehr imporatant in my eyes.

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Hey guys. Sorry I haven't posted in a while, but skimming the last few posts, I realise I'm not the only one.

Mod: Could Crub, Oman and thedragonprincess be prodded?

I'll have reread and provided some content soon.

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Crub, I think TDS' claim made sense. What was your issue with it?

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But, apparently another vanilla townie just claimed Cucumber. How do scum have a 'lettuce' safe-claim now, Oman? And the way I see it, you're voting Phate, not for being scum, but for bad and selfish play. That doesn't make sense to me.

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So you say it looks like he was fake-claiming scum, then you say that his claim

helped

scum, meaning it would have to have been real claim. It's still not making sense.

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If you think he's fake-claiming, why would you say this:

How did Phate's claim help scum?

Gave them an easy safeclaim.

And again, how do scum now have a safe claim?

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But since there's been a Cucumber vanilla claim, don't you think Lettuce isn't such a safe-claim anymore? Unless you think thedragonprincess is lying...?

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sorry that's kinda me...

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I don't know if it's obvious that you're not scum at all, but yes, it's not a reason to lynch you, as much as you saying ryan is your scum-buddy isn't a reason to lynch ryan. But Phate and TDS both

agree

(?) with you and say they want him lynched.

Maybe my sense of humour isn't so sharp today, but while I find it all amusing it's also confusing the hell out of me.

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He didn't agree with you. He just said that he was fine with having ryan lynched. Phate 'believed' you and TDP 'agreed' with you.

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Wow, Phate, you're really mean. But ryan not reacting in kind doesn't mean he's not scum.

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I haven't been convinced by anyone that the claim thing was scummy.

I agree with this sincerely. But that's not to say other things Phate has done aren't questionable.

Actually, I really need a reread.

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I have a reason. See how he is at the top? Its at the start somewhere.

I think that's too generous. Is it his early vote on ryan alone that makes you think he's town? Because, that vote included, I don't recall much else that could even make me remotely sure about him.

Can you comment on this quote with your suggestion of a popcorn claim in mind?

No, my personal thought is that a) one of them is lying (I shan't tell you which one and why, and if you push it I'm calling it rolefishing). b) there are two or three townie names spread out over the townies.

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eh, when did we all agree to do this? That is, I don't see why we should, and won't until I hear from the rest of the players.

And Oman, can you answer my question(s) from my last post?

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I just had a quick read over the players that agreed to it and realised that it was most of 'em, so ok.

I'm a Brussels Sprout.

Next -> ... Actually, I'd like to choose after Oman answers my questions.

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Ok, but I see a discrepancy between that statement I quoted and your suggestion of a mass nameclaim now, so much so that I have to wonder what could have changed your opinion.

You said that you thought there were one or two townie names and now you're actually suggesting that there are no duplicate role-names. What made you think otherwise before?

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I'm not sure I buy that. But it'll do for now.

Next -> WhoMe?

Regardless of this, I have a feeling scum have safe-claims, mostly for the reason that I think it'd break the game if they didn't, so I still think this isn't really going to help the town a whole lot.

In the mean time...

Vote: Crub

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In the mean time...

Vote: Crub

Care to outline why exactly?

Maybe I got a guilty investigation on you?

I'm feeling like we're seeing a lot of opportunism around Oman's 'beans' thing. That said, it could be dodgy. I'll try to reread and maybe do a player-by-player-thing.

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I think Bookitty makes a notable case on Oman. I really didn't like his 'scum-buddy' comments from Day 1 and the whole vanilla thing still doesn't sit well with me.

I don't understand the Mason claim thing. Why are we even assuming there are masons in this game? And how could there only be 1 mason left anyway? Wouldn't we have seen a mason role revealed with one of the dead?

I've definitely got an eye on WhoMe? now.

destructor:

Did

you get a guilty on Crub?

How is this different from outright asking me if I'm a cop?

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Oh.. I just noticed that Y was a mason.

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unless destructor is mafia simply claiming cop. that being said... anyone care to counterclaim?

*raised eyebrows*

QFT

I'm not the cop. I didn't have a good read on Crub but was feeling uneasy about him, so I said that to see his and others' reactions. Not sure what to make of it all, but I figured I'd better nip this at the bud.

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I honestly don't see what's terribly anti-town about what I just did. In fact, it seems to me like WhoMe's just being really opportunistic.

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The fact that something slightly unordinary happened. It's like you're using that as an excuse to vote for me.

You say I'm muddying the waters. How?

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The fact that something slightly unordinary happened. It's like you're using that as an excuse to vote for me.

You say I'm muddying the waters. How?

by intimating you have a power role, and also hinting you have information on another player. If we had all took you at your word and speed lynched, what would you have said then? If a real cop had counter claimed, then your I didn't mean it wouldn't have counted for crap, we would have lynched you. It was an anti-town move.

Your whole argument is based on things that didn't happen and, given any Town made of sensible players, probably wouldn't have happened anyway. Regardless, this is all negated by the fact that I admitted that I wasn't the cop. If I hadn't I might not be so sceptical of your vote.

I also find it ridiculous that you'd entertain the idea that a speed lynch would have occurred, yet make no reference to what this would have implied, finding an action that was so unlikely to cause it scummy instead. Who is likely to vote for someone based on a 'half-Cop-claim' besides scum? I think that the reactions we saw to my post are a pro-town result, yet you've decided to vote me for it.


But, hey, here's something else worth bringing up: fruit.
[quote="Wikipedia on "Green bean", claimed by Oman"]Green beans (American English) or French beans (British English) or Mahune (South Slavic, Balkans) are the unripe

fruits

of any kind of bean, including the yardlong bean, the hyacinth bean, the winged bean, and especially the common bean (Phaseolus vulgaris), whose pods are also usually called string beans in the northeastern United States, but can also go by snap beans.[/quote]
[quote="Wikipedia on "Pea", claimed by Bookitty"]A pea, although treated as a vegetable in cooking, is botanically a

fruit

; the term is most commonly used to describe the small spherical seeds or the pods of the legume Pisum sativum.[/quote]
[quote="Wikipedia on "Capsicum", cailmed by gorckat"]The

fruit

of Capsicum plants have a variety of names depending on place and type. They are commonly called chili pepper, capsicum, red or

green pepper

, or sweet pepper in Britain.[/quote]
[quote="Wikipedia on "Cucumber", claimed by tdp"]The cucumber is a creeping vine that roots in the ground and grows up trellises or other supporting frames, wrapping around ribbing with thin, spiraling tendrils. The plant has large leaves that form a canopy over the

fruit

.[/quote]
So we've got four vegetable claims that are technically fruit claims.

Before we jump the gun, have a look at this.
[quote="Wikipedia on "Vegetable""]Since “vegetable” is not a botanical term, there is no contradiction in referring to a plant part as a fruit while also being considered a vegetable. Given this general rule of thumb, vegetables can also include leaves (lettuce), stems (asparagus), roots (carrots), flowers (broccoli), bulbs (garlic), seeds (

peas and beans

) and botanical fruits such as

cucumbers

, squash, pumpkins, and

capsicums

(bell peppers). Botanically, fruits are reproductive organs (ripened ovaries containing one or many seeds), while vegetables are vegetative organs which sustain the plant.[/quote]I'm not sure why lettuce and broccoli are mentioned here, since they

are not

botanically fruit.

Yeah, so I think this name claim was more useful than I first though.

Things to consider:
• Did Aimee attempt to avoid this confusion? Perhaps. Regardless, I believe that most of the unambiguous claims we've seen are most reliable. These are, in order of claim - Lettuce, Broccoli, Spinach, Brussels Sprout and Cabbage.
•

Applicable across all of our name claims

- which part of the world is Aimee from? :lolstalk: Would she have used the common names for vegetables used in that region? If so, we should consider which names players claimed and whether it's likely that Aimee would have assigned these names.

I'm not sure, but I don't believe she's from the US because I'm sure I've spotted her using "ou" spelling =D. With this in mind, though, I become more sceptical of Oman's Green beans claim, since this name is listed as common in the US. It is also used in Australia, however. If Aimee is from the UK, my vote will likely go to Oman

I'm also suspicious of "Green pepper" for similar reasons, since my impression is that that name is more often used in the US than anywhere else. I usually refer to it as "Green capsicum" or just "Capsicum" and

never

as "Green pepper".

I feel it's likely that there is at least one scum in the list of four fruits, but would be surprised if there were more than two.

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I usually call them beans too, but I've heard and seen "Green beans" enough to call it common here. I usually say Brussels Sprouts, not sprouts. According to my role PM, Aimee probably calls them Brussels Sprouts too.

About which of the four fruits I think are scum... I think it's most likely you or gorckat. I don't find the 's' thing suspicious but I'll be rereading both you and gorckat all the same. I'm less suspicious of the other two because unless Bookitty was willing to bus her Godfather, I doubt she's scum and I also find it unlikely that tdp would have counterclaimed Phate as scum.

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I feel it's likely that there would be a scum within a list of any 4 randomly chosen people left

Yeah, but like I said before, I think the unambiguous claims (non-fruit) are less likely to be scum. It gives us a place to start.

Also this whole fruit argument is crazy, it's confirmed that at least 2 townspeople are fruit, how does that make it any more likely that both the scum are fruit?

Which two townies are confirmed fruits?

I'm totally willing to join the soupfly wagon for reasons stated (except the one I quoted below) and others I may reveal later.

3) "the NK" (think tank)...not "one of the NKs"? That seems like you slipped letting on a personal involvement in think's death

This is semantics and is almost as much a reach as the 's' argument. Points 1 and 2 you raise were good enough to base a vote on. Was 3 really worth bringing up?

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Vote: soupfly

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Dammit.

Unvote
Vote: soupfly

hehe

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Apologies for the quadruple post.

Hmm, I didn't realise I'd just put him at L-1, so I'm going to unvote until he responds. My vote is on him in spirit.

Unvote

soupfly, what do you have to say?

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Should I be putting my vote back on you? How do you know there are only 2 scum left?

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If it weren't for the extra night kill I might agree, but I wouldn't have said it with so much confidence.

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ninja'd
That last post was for Crub.

gorckat, I don't really agree. Reading his post in the context of the discussion, the "leek" thing, makes it pretty clear what he was referring to. It's still sounding like a reach to me. But again, points 1 and 2 are good and soup needs to reply to them.

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The extra night kill makes me think that we've either got a SK or a Vig. If it's a SK, I feel like more than 3 mafia would be unbalanced. If it's a Vig, I could see a mafia of 4, unless the Godfather had NK-immunity.

So in either case, it's a possibility that there are 3 scum left. I don't think we should be ruling it out so soon.

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I'll buy that.

Vote: WhoMe?

Based on flavour and the opportunism I picked up earlier. I thought one of soupfly or WhoMe was scum.

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I'm totally willing to join the soupfly wagon for reasons stated (except the one I quoted below) and others I may reveal later.

"Who, him? Scum? Sure. Also, I'm going to leave the door open to claim cop later if need be."

What Crub said.

Here are the other reasons for my vote on WhoMe. I've felt his play has been opportunistic a few times this game. First I noted was Post 118.

Eh?
That was a mod error. I already explain my post.

vote destructor

was that what you were going to use? I wasn't on the mislynch, it was a mod error!

My issue with this was that he was equating me causing a mod-error to me being scum. Interestingly enough, the vote/wagon in questions was on ryan-scum. If ryan had been lynched due to the fake-vote, the game may well have had to stop altogether because of the mod error. This doesn't make me scum, or even scummy. It looked like WhoMe was looking for a reason to vote.

In Post 228 WhoMe placed another questionable vote on Phate for 'scum-guiding'. When I asked him what he meant, the irrationality of his argument was soon revealed and he unvoted. His vote was based on a reach, and again, it looked like he was just looking for an excuse to vote.

In Post 242 he puts his vote back on Phate, suggesting that the "every vanilla is a lettuce thing really was a huge misuse of a scum safe claim." But what does that mean anyway? I don't know about the rest of you, but it seemed fairly clear to me that Phate didn't know what a safe-claim even was at the time. Again, it looked like WhoMe was just looking for a reason to vote for Phate and seized the opportunity.

One point that caused me doubt was his vote on ryan in Post 467, but his silence throughout the period that ryan was being drilled makes it seem more likely that he was distancing or preparing to bus him. ryan's eventual self-vote suggests that he'd gotten the message from his scum-buddies.

Last point I want to bring up is flavour stuff. I mentioned that I felt like one of soupfly or WhoMe was scum. This was based on their name-claims. I was certain that one of the two was the last Mason. soup, because broccoli and cauliflower look similar, but WhoMe because cabbage is kinda white like cauliflower too. So I looked the three vegetables up to see which of the two were more closely related. It turns out that they're all different breeds of the same species: Brassica oleracea. I was surprised to find that Brussels Sprouts were also of the same species.

While this seems to negate the flavour reasoning, I am sceptical of the possibility that there are four vegetables of the same species in the town. I can imagine, though, that one may have been included as a safe-claim.

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soup, why are you voting gorckat if Oman's your number one suspect? Why am I number 3?

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tdp's Cucumber claim is about all that's stopping me from putting a vote right back on her.

To a), I explained why I did it.
To b), eh? Can you explain to me how it's more likely that I was trying to avoid a lynch when I wasn't even remotely close to one at the time?

gorckat and tdp seem to have forgotten at that I admitted I wasn't the cop, too.

Assuming two scum left, which I'm pretty sure is the case, I think we'll find them in gorckat, Bookitty or Crub based on the roles we know and those that are near-confirmed (ie, soup, Phate and tdp).

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I agree, and since I've been trying to piece this setup together, I'm becoming more sceptical of the vanilla claims. It also occurs to me now that if scum were given safe-claims, which seems to be the case, that they would have know long before most of the town that all vanillas

weren't

the same vegetable, which is something to consider.

I really have to think about this. =/

What do you think was iffy about tdp's counter-claim?

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ninja'd, that was to Crub.

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Does anyone else have a post restriction?

That's one helluva anti-town post restriction you have there, Bookitty.

Actually, everyone should have a look at Page 6. Bookitty's predecessor, kravhen, made three posts on it.

Vote: Bookitty

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Boo's apparently got 2 strikes left. Can't she just use one? She is at L-2 after all.

And the fact that we're having to spam a thread to see more content from her makes me more sceptical.

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Rule number 8 says modkills take the place of a day's lynch, so getting yourself modkilled would be the equivalent of self-hammering.

I still find the PR iffy and the whole night actions thing doesn't help a heap. You didn't answer gorckat's question about a town being 'investigation' proof. And why'd you bring that up, anyway? Our Cop is dead.

Also, I'm not liking the way you seem to be cleaning up the edges of your claim in each post. First you didn't mention the restriction of 2 posts per page or the 150-word limit, then you didn't mention the three strikes rule. You also only mentioned being investigation proof in 680 but in your last post expand that to

all

night actions besides nightkills.

This will be impossible to clarify, short of you dying, but given the nature of your role, I'm surprised the Mod didn't inform you that you'd already used a strike up.

Your role claim is sounding very outlandish.

That said, I don't feel comfortable about lynching you just yet.

Unvote

Because you were at L-2 and I want to do some more rereading before this day is done.

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Haven't found the time for a reread yet.

I wouldn't mind hearing more from soup and Phate. Where the hell is Phate?

Mod: Can Phate be prodded please?

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I just finished doing some sort of a simulation and I think we should consider a No Lynch today.

I need to look over it again, but basically, if we mislynch today the town's chance of winning will be reduced to less than 40% and we'll either be in lylo or have a scum win. Lynching scum will give us a 55% chance of winning and No Lynch gives us 42% and is guaranteed to take us to Day 5 at the least. All of this is assuming scum kill every night.

I'll elaborate more when I've got a bit more time. You guys better appreciate this. It took me hours! =D

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No, I factored that in. Given the Oman night kill I think it's safe to assume the second killer is pro-town and will only kill if it's safe. Before I explain the scenarios further, I'd like to hear what the rest of you think.

Bookitty, anther question for you: What is your actual

role

? We've seen every role name so far being associated with a more traditional role. You've explained to us your flavour, but have made no mention of your actual role.

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Phate, as comforting as being near-confirmed may be, it's not an excuse to play badly. Your vote's just stupid.

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That said, I have no night actions myself, so regardless of the weird flavour of my role, I'm essentially a vanilla townie.

She already answered that

I don't understand why Oman's death means that we won't get a 2nd kill tonight if we no lynch?

I missed this last time around.

I guess she has, but can Boo still be vanilla in light of the post restriction?

About the 2nd night kill, I didn't say anything specifically in relation to No Lynching. Assuming two scum left, if we lynch town today and there are two night kills, both being town, scum will win. So, in a situation where a second night kill could lose the game for the town, the best thing for the second killer to do is not kill. In my simulations, I assumed scum would kill every night without fail but also factored in the possibilities of a second kill, most of which are worse for the town.

And about Oman, I just don't, or at least didn't, think that scum would have targeted Oman given the fact that he was somewhat suspicious. In my mind, soup or Phate would seem the more logical targets.

Also, why didn't you vote tdp instead of FOSing?

Even though Oman was heavily hinting/blatantly saying he had a unique role which may have threatened both mafia and an SK?

Was he? Where? I noticed the unique role thing, but then we all have unique roles.

gorckat, if Boo's town, who would your next suspect be?

Oh, and Phate, apologies for being snappy. I was just irritated by what looked to me like a anti-town contribution to the game. You've expressed a fleeting suspicion of me throughout the game without ever really outlining a case. If you're going to vote for me, you could at least give us a good reason.

To be honest, I think you've been going under the radar mostly because of the lettuce/safe claim thing. What I mean to say is that being confirmed isn't a reason to be

less

pro-town but it almost seems like that's what you've been for a while now and you're lucky to be getting away with it.


Again, I'll say more about the simulation when we hear more others. If Phate wants to give No Lynching a bit more thought, some more from him would be good too.

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EBWOP: *unique role names

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Have you actually found anything linking tdp and myself? How conditional is my scumminess to hers and vice versa?

Assuming I'm not scum, where would you look next?

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Have you actually found anything linking tdp and myself? How conditional is my scumminess to hers and vice versa?

I don't think you're scum together; tdp has been clearly against you with the half claim.

If tdp is scum, who do you think the other scum is? Likewise, If I am scum, who do you think the other scum is?

Bookitty, assuming tdp and I aren't scum together, I'd like you to answer the same questions. Also, I'd like you to tell us what you expect your role would come up as if you were killed.

Crub, I guess I want to ask you the same questions too, given your vote for tdp.


I've thought about the No Lynching scenario and realised the even though we'd be MUCH better off going that way than lynching town today, we'd be in much the same position that we are right now, just with one less townie. We need to lynch scum today or else risk the game.

Mod:

I get a feeling tdp may have left ms since she's replaced out of her other game on the site, but I wouldn't mind a prod on her in any case. Dunno if it's too early to be asking for a Prod on Phate as well, but he's only posted once so far this day.

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Given the fact that a mislynch will, at the least, put us into lylo, I would have thought you'd be putting more thought into who you put your vote on.

Your suspicions seem to be based on individual incidents as opposed to any significant connections between suspects. You've said that if Bookitty is town, you'd look at either tdp or myself, but at the same time she's the most likely scum buddy for both of us. Taking into account that you've not shown us any connections between Boo and either tdp or me I wonder how sincere your suspicions actually are. Similarly, you seem to have thrown Crub onto the end of those lists, giving no indication of what would make you feel that way.

Since you believe Phate and soup are town and that only one of me or tdp can be scum, according to what you've told us, if Boo comes up town you'd be looking at a Crub-tdp/destructor scum pair. So, it should follow that you'd be looking at Crub more intently, since you've essentially said that if Boo is town Crub is scum. But you haven't been.

Yes, I find this all very scummy.

Vote: gorckat

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The beef of my concerns with gorckat's suspicions just occurred to me.

...according to what you've told us, if Boo comes up town you'd be looking at a Crub-tdp/destructor scum pair...

Crub is the common ground here, being the obvious target if Boo is mislynched. But here's what he actually said when I asked who he'd look at if she did come up town:

tdp and you.

gorckat, why would you choose to look at us if Boo's town when, according to your own statements, Crub would then essentially be confirmed scum?

This is inconsistent and makes me think that you aren't being sincere about your suspicious, that is, fabricating them, as scum are required to do.

On top of this, as I said before, you've not demonstrated any real attempt to get a better read of Crub, instead just noting that he hasn't done anything scummy. You seem content to risk the mislynch of Bookitty while dropping cursory comments about a player, who

should

be your next suspect, flying under the radar while continuing to let it happen anyway.

Why would you do this? You say Boo hits it both ways for you, but then so does Crub, the only difference being that you've managed to find something more questionable about Boo then Crub. But, again, with the leniency you've shown Crub, this shouldn't be surprising.

To your question about who your scum-buddy would be, honestly, I'm not certain. Crub is a good candidate given you attitude towards him. tdp is another possibility and one I'd be more likely to persue. I've also been considering the more adventurous possibility that you are actually bussing Bookitty, which would actually be a smart scum-move given the loss of our Cop. If you are scum with Boo, it could easily have taken you to end-game and almost guaranteed a scum win.

The same could be equally said of Bookitty and tdp since they're both voting for each other. Bussing at this point of the game would actually be a good idea for scum.

Also, a reread is handy, I think.

At the same time, though, I don't really like any of the wagons taking form.

Tentative T3PS:
Crub
Bookitty
TDP

What does T3PS mean? Also, why don't you like any of the wagons?

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WhoMe is a pick, and my mind has changed on Crub to put him on the possiblescumlist too.

@Phate: No. It looks like Crub hadn't been looked at.

I actually thought Crub was Oman's N1 investigation because he'd put him in his town list for seemingly trivial reasons but missed that post from Oman. This is why I said I'd be more willing to look at a gorckat/tdp scum-pair than a gorckat/Crub one. But now that I've seen that post, I'm reconsidering.

I should clarify that I never really 'went after' ryan in Day 1 at all, and honestly, didn't think he was scum right up until Pat revealed his role. The only thing I think I share in common with Phate in relation to ryan is that his attacks on both of us were similar.

Crub, Phate misusing a safe-claim relies on him only receiving

one

. Maybe someone more experience in themed games can comment on this, but in the only other themed mini I played (SG:A Mafia), every member of the scum group I was in was given a list of the same safe claims, so a misuse like this couldn't have happened. After the popcorn claim I assumed this was the same in this game, although, now that I think about it there was no reason for me to assume that, given the flavour differences.

Also, do you still think tdp is scum? If Phate is, tdp most probably isn't in light of her counter-claim. I wouldn't mind seeing a case on whomever it is you want to keep your vote on either.

gorckat, do you have anything to say in regards to my last post?

Bookitty should probably post a response to questions and comments now too.

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This is getting irritating. Our two claimed vanillas aren't providing half the content they should be and we've got another player with an apparently discouraging post restriction. More from soup would be great too.

Crub, why don't you think Boo's scum? Do you have no issues with her PR?

tdp, why is your vote on Bookitty? Do you disagree with my case on gorckat? Do you think it's likely that Phate misused a safe claim? Who do you think is Bookitty's last scum buddy?

Phate, I'd like you to elaborate more on why you don't like any of the wagons. The disparity between the content involved in the cases against players and your thoughts against the cases is not entirely convincing.

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Er, ok, so then why's your vote on me? And can you answer the other questions too? (just replace Bookitty with "destructor".

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Why do I feel like I get ignored all the time... =(

If there's one thing I'm getting increasingly frustrated about in games at the moment, it's how people are getting away with not answering questions asked of them. I can't imagine a pro-town motivation for it so if pro-towners do ignore questions, then that's just poor play.

I think it's in the town's interest to wait for some answers and responses before hammering

anyone

.

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=(

Go town!

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Oh and Destructor, NO!

Yeah, sorry about that. lol

I suppose I should explain why I killed who I did.
Night 1 was a bit of a wild card for me. Oman's scum-buddy comment to ryan really confused me, but I wasn't willing to kill him because I wasn't convinced enough. So, I went with thinktank, who I hadn't been getting town-vibes from... also I felt like if he was town, he hadn't been terribly helpful. And a I figured a second night kill was good for the town, information-wise.

Night 2, I killed Oman because of the scum-buddy WIFOM point and didn't feel great about his vote on the WhoMe wagon. His comments to WhoMe after the self-hammer sounded a little contrived as well, and I felt like he was WIFOMing us again. Turns out I was wrong. =/

Ironically, in Night 2 I was seriously considering Crub as an alternative because of how scarcely he'd been posting. If he hadn't claimed Spinach, I probably would have shot him. I thought right up until my vote on gorckat that he was a Doc because of his claim, which also made some sense with why he'd be trying to stay out of the spot light. I suppose I shouldn't have read into the flavour so much and just called him out for it much early.

The town self-hammers broke my heart, especially tdp's. I was fuming over that.

I am so surprised that des didn't nk night 3. I had him pegged as one-shot at that point, but I should have realised that he also targetted Oman night 2.

If I'd hit town, that would have been game over. I wasn't willing to take the risk and after targeting the Cop, I wasn't feeling too hot about my instincts.

Also, I thought the events of Day 2 and 3 should have put Crub under more scrutiny mostly by the fact that gorckat had been avoiding him way more than was warranted.

After gorckat was lynched, I sent Patrick a PM asking if the final scum was one of Crub or Bookitty. He sent me a reply, but I decided not to read it until the game was over or I couldn't handle the suspense anymore!

Here's a bit of lol from me to Patrick after Bookitty's Day 4 post.

I just saw Boo's latest post and am pretty sure she's scum because the post of Oman's she's pointing to is from Day 1, yet she's claiming he had an investigation result...
That, along with her claim make me sure enough.


I'm going to go and check that PM now. =D

So I went and checked it and replied with this.

Oh god.

I hope she realises what she's just done. =S

lol. It was a heart sinking moment. But I guess that's a sign of a good game. =)


Well done scum! I had a lot of fun with this one. Thanks to Aimee for putting it together and thanks to Patrick for taking it over.

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I'd be interested to know how our two scum really felt about my half-claim on Crub. gorckat eventually tried to use it against me and Crub shrugged it off in thread. What were you guys really thinking?

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I meant at the time. Clearly, it didn't really reveal the information I hoped it would but I'm wondering if it ruffled any feathers. Did you think that I really could have had a guilty on him? What if I hadn't eventually admitted to not being the Cop?

Actually, I just remembered this post.

destructor: Did you get a guilty on Crub?

You

were

rolefishing! And if I'd said yes, I'm guessing you were preparing to bus him and score some town creds. heh

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Yeah, I was concerned myself! I figured I should get out of it before it went too far. Anyway, good game. Many lessons and interesting moments came from it. =)