Mini #534 - Vegetable Mafia (Game Over!)

[Phate]

I agree.

[Phate]

Oh, and

Vote: Y

.

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Unvote; Vote: Northjayhawk

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When you vote for yourself and ask others to vote for you, we learn very little about you or the people voting for you, other than you are a strange goofball. Maybe we might learn about people voting for you if they go nuts and quickly put you at L-2 or something, but compared to simple random-voting to test other people's reactions, a self-bandwagon is completely useless and probably counterproductive for the town.

Why? What information does bandwagoning glean? Why is this information nullified if the bandwagon is started by the person being bandwagoned? Use your head, don't just make assertions.

[Phate]

Nope, we're looking for someone who's trying to cast suspicion on perfectly normal randomvote stage behaviouir.

Unvote; Vote: ryan

.

[Phate]

Getting info from the person being bandwagoned is secondary to (IM) watching the reactions of other players.

[Phate]

No, I'm not telling you to bandwagon anyone. There's a ~75% chance (depending on the setup) that any given person we're wagoning is town, and theme setups often are heavier on the roles, so it's at least as likely that we'll force a town powerrole to claim than catch a scum with any given wagon. No, the way to work with wagons is to watch those on them and those off them.

[Phate]

We'll agree to disagree, then.

Please clarify your reference to the difference between newbies and vets; as nearly as I can tell, it was more or less axiomatical, completely meaningless, responded to nothing, and added nothing to the discussion.

I voted you because I believe the randomwagon stage is a perfectly normal and productive part of Mafia as it is played on MS, and I find interfering without a good reason to be marginally anti-town.

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Asking to post their role PM was pretty much a slap in the face. If someone posts their role PM, they're modkilled.

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Personally, I'd be more worried about destructor than Crub. If putting someone at L-4 is opportunistic, what of putting them at L-3?

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After spending a full four minutes trying to decipher thinktank's post, here is my response.

thinktank, is English your native language? If so, please observe the following rules or I shall ignore your posts based on the negative risk:reward (migraine:uselessness) ratio.

Capitalise the first word of every sentence.
Use commas between clauses.
Use end punctuation at the end of every sentence.
Capitalise the word "I", as it refers to oneself.
Capitalise the names of your fellow players, unless they're sufficiently illiterate to have not capitalised their own name.
Use either a period or an ellipse; don't use their bastard child, "..".
On a related note, don't end EVERY FUCKING SENTENCE with "..".
If you choose to upgrade these to a full ellipse, consider some variety with end punctuation. One multi-paragraph sentence punctuated only with ellipses is irritating at best and illegible at worst.
"U" is not a valid substitute for "you."
Don't insult your fellow scummers' collective intelligence unless you're confident that you're more intelligent than they are. Then, do it in such a way that it showcases the intelligence gap, such as patronisingly giving them an impromptu crash course in the English launguage.

[Phate]

Unvote, Vote: destructor

Too many votes, too fast. Why would you add another?

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I understand why you think destructor is scummy.

I understand why you think Oman is scummy, although I disagree.

What makes you think they're a scumpair?

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No, you misunderstand. I know you find them scummy. I'm asking if you see anything that suggests a link between them.

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Why are you holding off on the vote? What are you waiting for?

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I can has explanation?

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You voted. The mod counted it, even though it wasn't in the proper syntax. I count that as a vote. If you were trying to lay a trap, explain. If not, then you intended to vote, you posted a vote, and the mod counted it. That's a vote.

[Phate]

You voted. The mod counted it, even though it wasn't in the proper syntax. I count that as a vote. If you were trying to lay a trap, explain. If not, then you intended to vote, you posted a vote, and the mod counted it. That's a vote.

[Phate]

I'm not suggesting anything. I'm asking you: did you intend to vote or not? If so, why? If not, what was the point?

[Phate]

Wow, way to give your buddy an out, huh, kravhen?

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My vote stands.

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No, it means, "My vote stands."

destructor has failed to provide an adequate reason for voting Ryan (which he did, regardless of what he says).

And if he was really playing some cute little bullshit game to the tune of "Oh, but I didn't put the comma in the right place so it wasn't REALLLLY a vote so why are you mad?" I find that scummy. It looks like a fallback position for scum hoping for a quick lynch to me.

[Phate]

I just read 124.

And I've never said he's obviously scum, either, regardless of the way you put it in quotes. Nor have I pushed his lynch.

Nor do I really think you're that scummy, at this point, although I'm majorly pissed at you for post 122.

I mean, I can understand unvoting, and urging caution, and asking for an explanation... but you ask him for an explanation, then give him one and ask "something like that, right?" If that's not giving someone an out then I don't know what is.

[Phate]

Unvote

You know what? I don't really want to be on the same wagon ryan's on.

MOD, votecount please?

[Phate]

You seem absolutely positive that destructor is scum. You've given no evidence beyond blandly echoing others. You're pushing for a lynch on page 6. You claim that Oman and destructor's behaviours have both been scummy enough for a lynch.

I'm asking for a votecount to make sure that I don't put you at L-1 when I vote you.

[Phate]

I'm not disputing that destructor is scummy. I'm not disputing that at all. Trust me. I just think you're scummier. 143 dropped my jaw.

What did I say in 129-30 that I took back in 146?

[Phate]

Quit trying to deflect attention. I realise he's scummy. I think you're scummier for your absolute surety and your gung-ho LYNCHTHESE2NOWKTHXBAI attitude on Page 7. He's not THAT scummy.

We've been over this.

[Phate]

Personally, I'd rather have a town idiot alive than an intelligent scum alive.

[Phate]

Townies should

almost

never be lynching on anti-town behaviour

. They should be lynching people whose behaviour is

pro-scum

.

I use scum here as a synonym for any group or individual whose win requires or causes the town to lose.

[Phate]

That's not true. Lurking, for example, is not anti-town, but it is pro-scum.

By comparison, posting your role PM is not pro-scum but it is anti-town.

And trying to get someone lynched because they make fun of you for being a moron in a previous game is both anti-town and pro-scum.

[Phate]

I was just giving examples. Obviously, you're not familiar with the difference between anti-town and scummy. Excuse me for trying to make you a better player. It was probably a lost cause anyway.

[Phate]

I did state it. I didn't even mention you. Chill the fuck out, dude.

[Phate]

*raises eyebrows at Ryan*

You might need Dr. Phil. In fact, the psychologist should claim now. =P

Think about it. If there was a quicklynch and the mod counted his vote, destructor could say, "oh, i was just testing reactions, I didn't think the mod would actually count it!" If not, "oh, i was just testing reactions, you guys are overreacting." That's why I say fallback position for scum.

[Phate]

After spending a full four minutes trying to decipher thinktank's post, here is my response.

thinktank, is English your native language? If so, please observe the following rules or I shall ignore your posts based on the negative risk:reward (migraine:uselessness) ratio.

Capitalise the first word of every sentence.
Use commas between clauses.
Use end punctuation at the end of every sentence.
Capitalise the word "I", as it refers to oneself.
Capitalise the names of your fellow players, unless they're sufficiently illiterate to have not capitalised their own name.
Use either a period or an ellipse; don't use their bastard child, "..".
On a related note, don't end EVERY FUCKING SENTENCE with "..".
If you choose to upgrade these to a full ellipse, consider some variety with end punctuation. One multi-paragraph sentence punctuated only with ellipses is irritating at best and illegible at worst.
"U" is not a valid substitute for "you."
Don't insult your fellow scummers' collective intelligence unless you're confident that you're more intelligent than they are. Then, do it in such a way that it showcases the intelligence gap, such as patronisingly giving them an impromptu crash course in the English launguage.

Also, it's not spelled "ludacris" or "sry".

I could point out what's wrong with the above posts in the area of spelling, grammar, logic, syntax, et cetera, but it's not worth the effort.


thinktank, I've told you, your posts are not worth trying to decipher in order to gain an understanding of your flawed logic.

/ignore thinktank.

[Phate]

Crub, how has my opinion been floating with the wind? After we got out of the random stage, my suspicion was firmly on destructor. Ryan's professed absolute surety of alignment and desire to lynch on Page 3 made me change my vote to Ryan, and I believe I was the first to do so. I still think destructor is scummy, though, and I'm leaning toward an either/or configuration.

[Phate]

*shrugs* Nobody else does.[/provoke]

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I thought I was voting for either ryan or destructor.

Vote: ryan

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Closed setup. The scum will all claim lettuce (vanilla).

I don't think a massclaim is a good idea for town.

[Phate]

That totally doesn't help scum at all.

I just surreptiously claimed vanilla townie, and every other vanilla townie will know that I'm a confirmed vanilla townie.

It's a closed setup. That's a fact. That means we don't know what roles there are in the game. Which makes it easy for scum to lie.

[Phate]

*blinks*

I thought we were...

So you're scum, or more likely, I was wrong in my assumption that all vanillas got lettuce.

[Phate]

I believe you.

I'm a vanilla townie also and I am lettuce.

So NOW, any vanilla townie who's not lettuce or cucumber (and evidently, rolenames are unique) will know that we're both confirmed vanilla townies. *grins*

[Phate]

Obviously you were wrong about the your first assumption. Can you, please, prove me the other one?

Note: referring to the following, which is myself answering another question about closed setups.

It's a closed setup. That's a fact. That means we don't know what roles there are in the game. Which makes it easy for scum to lie.

Yes. Scroll up, look at the OP, and observe the fact that the roles are not listed. This makes the game, by definition, a closed setup. What's difficult to understand about this?

Did you just ruined the scum's safe claim?

The scum don't have a safe claim. And if they did, ruining it would be a bad thing because...?

[Phate]

I don't get it. The scum don't have a safe claim. If they did, the way I'd know it would be to be a vanilla, in a game where all vanillas have the same rolename. Being scum wouldn't help me at all.

[Phate]

Please be more specific, Ryan, as I have no idea what you're referring to.

Do you mean roles? I know that there are vanilla townies, probably protown powerroles, and some form of scum, most likely a Mafia. I know (as does every other vanilla townie, unless princess is scum) that I am a vanilla townie, and that princess is not a protown powerrole.

Do you mean rolenames? I know that we're all named after vegetables, and the town is named after green ones.

[Phate]

WhoMe, I still don't get it. I know scum don't have a safe claim because thedragonprincess claimed vanilla townie with a different rolename. Thus, many vegetables are used, and if a scum claims a particular vegetable, it may well already be taken. That's how I know that scum don't have a safe claim.

Explain again how this makes me scum. Type slow, I don't read fast. =P

[Phate]

Oh.

No, that's not what I was talking about at all. I meant that if all the vanillas were lettuce, that would be giving the scum a safe claim... but I also couldn't know that unless I was vanilla.

Now, I repeat, explain to me why this makes me scum.

[Phate]

Oh.

No, that's not what I was talking about at all. I meant that if all the vanillas were lettuce, that would be giving the scum a safe claim... but I also couldn't know that unless I was vanilla.

Now, I repeat, explain to me why this makes me scum.

[Phate]

Oh.

No, that's not what I was talking about at all. I meant that if all the vanillas were lettuce, that would be giving the scum a safe claim... but I also couldn't know that unless I was vanilla.

Now, I repeat, explain to me why this makes me scum.

[Phate]

Both "slips" are completely explained by the fact that I misunderstood what a safe claim is. For your second "slip", I was explaining what I thought was meant by safe claims.

I've adequately explained my voting you.

[Phate]

Translation: "You can explain why your slips aren't slips all you want, but they're still slips, because I said so, and obviously, they helped you, because obviously, they're scum. Oh, and I'm town."

Confirm Vote: Ryan

[Phate]

Ryan, I've already explained why it isn't a slip. Your response was "whatever, scum." YOU telling ME that I'm "flipping and changing things" or not using evidence is pretty ironic.

[Phate]

Tell me, what's the difference between "whatever, scum" and "I don't buy your explanation, I think you messed up and now are scrambling to cover your ass."?

You say you don't buy my explanation, but you don't say why, which is odd, because it's a perfectly reasonable explanation (I'm new to the site, I can't be expected to automatically know all vocabulary terms). For crying out loud, look at my join date.

[Phate]

Note: I've already explained that the "wow, way to give your buddy an out" wasn't a serious accusation, just my being frustrated at kravhen's behaviour. Yes, I do find destructor scummy. But I'm not positive that he's scum.

And as for the appeal to newbness, what can I say except that it's true?

[Phate]

No, soupfly, I'm not cheating. A post or two later, I confirmed - that was indeed a Lettuce vanilla townie claim.

I would consider a nameclaim, but not a roleclaim.

You know what would be cool? An encrypted mass claim. What would you guys think about that?

[Phate]

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6500 <-- encrypted claims.

[Phate]

What I meant: The scum don't know for certain that there's something they can claim, like they did if all vanillas were lettuce and a vanilla said so. But I couldn't know that unless I was a vanilla lettuce, anyway.

As previously stated, I misunderstood the term safe claim.

[Phate]

I thought all vanillas were lettuce. Thus, I was trying to confirm myself to the other vanillas.

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Why not?

[Phate]

I thought it would be nice to be confirmed.

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If all vanillas were lettuce, and nobody had mentioned that yet, and I claimed lettuce, that would confirm me.

[Phate]

They wouldn't. That's why I'd be confirmed.

[Phate]

Yes. Both. I've never been in a game where the vanillas were different, so I assumed that after the first person claimed vanilla and a rolename, the scum would claim the same thing. I figured that the first vanilla would be cleared and no one else would be, so I claimed lettuce first.

[Phate]

Secondly, the next two pages are him digging out of the hole he makes with the claim.

Explain to me what's wrong with this.

[Phate]

My claim was not pro-town. It was also not anti-town, as far as I can tell. It WAS selfish. None of this = scum.

[Phate]

Wrong.

[Phate]

*grins* Are you kidding? Ryan's everyone's bitch.

Also, cliched and patently false sayings do not evidence make.

[Phate]

Gave them an easy safeclaim.

No, it didn't.

[Phate]

How did it give them a safeclaim, Oman?

[Phate]

After the grilling he's gotten I doubt he's scum

Clarify please.

[Phate]

I believe Oman. We should lynch Ryan first to make sure, though.

[Phate]

Destructor, it was tongue-in-cheek. I don't think Oman's scum. I do think Ryan's scum. I explained why when I voted him, and I've defended my vote for several pages.

[Phate]

Thinktank, I didn't jump on anything. My vote has been on Ryan for most of the game.

[Phate]

Thinktank, I didn't jump on anything. My vote has been on Ryan for most of the game.

Goddess

damn

it, Ryan, do you listen to yourself talk? You echo other people's arguments

AFTER THEY'VE BEEN SHOWN TO BE WRONG.

You echo other people's arguments

IN SUCH A WAY THAT IT'S OBVIOUS YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND THEM.

You're like BattleMage, only less subtle, and incapable of coming up with your own bullshit arguments - instead, you have to borrow other people's bullshit arguments.

I really, really hope you're scum.

[Phate]

STFU, GTFO, and DIABBQ, Ryan. You need to pull your head out of your ass, stop popping those Valiums, and realise that some people take this game seriously.

I could be wrong, but I believe that Y has already voiced his suspicions of you. The only person's opinion I'm really curious to hear is TDP's, but honestly, at this point the only necessary answer to "Why are you voting ryan?" is to quote any two or three of your posts.

[Phate]

Ryan.

You are a complete, utter fucktard.

There is no way I can emphasise this enough. For a start, you should write 'fucktard' on your forehead - no, brand it - and spend the rest of the year looking into a mirror intoning "I am a complete, utter fucktard" and periodically smashing your head into the mirror. As you crumple the ground courting unconsciousness, with mirror fragments serenely shimmering around your face and blood trickling into your eyes, whisper to yourself with all the realisation led to desperate revelation -

"I am a complete, utter fucktard!"

And then die.

[Phate]

Ryan.

You are a complete, utter fucktard.

There is no way I can emphasise this enough. For a start, you should write 'fucktard' on your forehead - no, brand it - and spend the rest of the year looking into a mirror intoning "I am a complete, utter fucktard" and periodically smashing your head into the mirror. As you crumple the ground courting unconsciousness, with mirror fragments serenely shimmering around your face and blood trickling into your eyes, whisper to yourself with all the realisation led to desperate revelation -

"I am a complete, utter fucktard!"

And then die.

[Phate]

Destructor, Ryan was the one who brought in the

ad hominem

. All I did was cut through the speculative, circumstantial bullshit and straight to my eloquent profession of true, undying loathing.

[Phate]

Destructor, it was tongue-in-cheek. I don't think Oman's scum. I do think Ryan's scum. I explained why when I voted him, and I've defended my vote for several pages.

[Phate]

I am

sooo

glad ryan was scum.
[repeat with emphasis]

Assuming he was the vig's target, and I'm 90% sure he was, I'm also pleased that if the vig had to kill a townie, that it was thinktank. We have now eliminated the two most useless players, in my not-so-humble opinion.

It's a shame Y died. In addition to the fact that he wasn't a bad player at all, now his mason partner (assuming he had only one, which is likely) can't verifiably claim.

Also, DGP is confirmed town as far as I'm concerned, because she knew that vanillas weren't all lettuce.

Any thoughts on last night from anyone else?

[Phate]

Er.. when I wrote DGP, I meant TDP. I'm getting acronyms mixed up now.

Oman, you think I'm town and give reasons.

Crub, after lurking all over the shop, votes for phate.

Then this is all you post about Crub. Then you post both of us in your townlist. Explain please.

[Phate]

After 20 pages of reading, I'm not convinced AT ALL that Crub is town.

In fact, if we agree to a popcorn, I choose Crub for the first claim.

[Phate]

BK has a point. destructor, for instance, claimed a single brussel sprout.

[Phate]

I agree that the mason partner should claim today, if not necessarily right now.

[Phate]

that's a good thing, TDP. We're basically directing the mafia to a vanilla. If they're shooting the mason, they're not shooting any powerroles.

[Phate]

This is perhaps the dumbest conversation I've ever seen within a Mafia game in my life. I find it far more likely that green pepper is a perfectly legitimate claim, that the non-pluralisation of 'green beans' was a nulltell at worst, that the scum all have fakeclaims (And yes, I now know what that means), and that those on the wagons for solely those reasons are scum.

The only reason I've contained my outburst thus far is to wait for someone who looked highly opportunistic to jump onto a wagon for one of those reasons.

Vote: Soupfly

[Phate]

I believe it, and I think it was the right play.

I'm totally willing to join the soupfly wagon for reasons stated (except the one I quoted below) and others I may reveal later.

"Who, him? Scum? Sure. Also, I'm going to leave the door open to claim cop later if need be."

Unvote

Vote: destructor

Incidentally, in light of my suddenly being eligible to mod: Due to crosskills, a 3p mafia and an SK might actually be easier for town than just the mafia. Discuss.

[Phate]

er, yeah. Didn't realise that he already claimed not-cop. That puts a damper on the destructor case.

unvote

So soupfly's out, destructor's on hold... who else is pushing the whole retarded lynching-based-on-which-veggie-we-got theory? The obvious choice is WhoMe, but I don't want to put him at L-1 just yet. So I'll stay voteless for now.

[Phate]

With 7 alive, I think a nolynch is bad for town. I'm mildly skeptical of BooKitty's claim, but she seems genuine.

Vote: destructor

[Phate]

Unvote

After a reread, I don't think ryan would run screaming at destructor's lynch like he did if destructor was one of ryan's scumbuddies.

At the same time, though, I don't really like any of the wagons taking form.

Tentative T3PS:
Crub
Bookitty
TDP

[Phate]

Top Three Possible Scum.

I'm really not feeling a major scumvibe from any of the people being considered as lynch candidates. Yes, I realise that's ~the entire town. I'm wondering whether Omancop thinking that Crub is town is the result of an investigation or just scumhunting.

[Phate]

TDP, what do you think of the way Ryan went after destructor? How does this fit in with your theory that destructor is scum?

It's ok if you disagree with me, but just a "posting to avoid modkill" post != good.

[Phate]

Gorckat just jumped onto my scumlist.

[Phate]

Oh. Ok.

Gorckat just slid off my scumlist.

[Phate]

This would be a good time for the mason to claim.

[Phate]

I was pretty sure yesterday that gorckat was town, but after a reread I ask myself why and all I can come up with is that he was the first to realise I was newbie town rather than slipping scum. But now I think of that, scum would obviously know that, and so much the better if they led the town in realising that, especially if the lynch didn't look like it would go through.

I'm torn between gorckat and Crub, but the way Crub is going after me feels natural, while the way gorckat is going after BooKitty seems forced.

I've got my eye on BooKitty, but I think she's town, especially now that she hasn't been quicklynched.

Vote: gorckat

Soupfly, I'd like you to summarise why you think gorckat is scum.

[Phate]

Read it again. I'm suggesting that the first person to think I was town isn't necessarily town themselves, not that they're automatically scum.

I missed his claim. That's worthy of suspicion?

[Phate]

Quit putting words in my mouth. I'm not suggesting anything about your alignment except that it's uncertain. In short: I was fairly sure you were town because of an action you took, and I now realise that that action isn't an action that exclusively town would make, as I assumed.

As for soupfly, you have yet to explain to me why forgetting soupfly's claim is worthy of suspicion. Why would scum be more likely to forget a claim?

[Phate]

Obviously I am forgetful; not only did I forget soup's claim, but I forgot that I acknowledged it.

And you have yet to explain the FoS in 781 or why inattentiveness is a scumtell. If, as you say, forgetfulness is a nulltell, why did you FoS me there? You're being very inconsistent.

[Phate]

Unvote

Not sure I want a lynch yet. I'll have to think about this.

[Phate]

Phate voted Gorckat, putting Gorckat at two votes. If I were scum with Phate, he could have left his vote there knowing I'd hammer. He did not, thus I cannot be scum with Phate.

This is faulty logic. I could have unvoted, then hammered. Of course, I'm proving right now that I'm not scum with you by posting this, but I just thought I'd point this out.

I think a full massclaim would probably be in order here, and regardless, a full claim from gorckat.

[Phate]

Oh.

Well, how does everyone feel about a massclaim? Is there anyone that hasn't claimed yet? Crub, have you claimed?

[Phate]

I'm pretty sure it's gorckat but I'm unsure of his partner. It really comes down to whether kitty is lying or not. I'm not getting strong scumvibes from either of you.

I'm ready to hammer. I'll give soupfly some time to check in with his opinions and gorckat a chance to yell at me.

[Phate]

Interesting. I could have sworn it was Crub.

Vote: Bookitty

Bookitty, I pressed first and hardest against Ryan's lynch. I was the first onto the lynchwagon and I pushed it until the end.

Also, your leap of logic between "This post could possibly indicate the cop's results" and "The cop was lying or Phate is scum" is astounding. I find it more likely that he had an innocent on Crub, because he put Crub in his townlist and didn't ever say why. I believe I mentioned that at the beginning of D2, and he blew me off.