Mini Normal 1854: Game Over

[Dierfire]

VOTE COUNT 1.07

Eric Rasputin (2): MisaTange, Creeps20
havingfitz (2): TwoFace, Gamma Emerald
Gamma Emerald (1): Aristophanes
Lil Uzi Vert (1): TheseViolentDelights
Vedith (1): Eric Rasputin
TwoFace (1): havingfitz
Hiraki (1): Lil Uzi Vert

No Vote (4): FrankJaeger, Vedith, Hiraki, ScumDeersAreVeryTasty

With 13 players living, 7 votes are required to lynch.

TIMER

(expired on 2016-11-30 16:30:00)

NOTES

Vedith replaces TwiszTed
Prodded TheseViolentDelights
FrankJaeger V/LA until 25 November
Gamma Emerald V/LA until 16 December (normal activity/prod requirements will apply)

[Creeps20]

Hm.
Looking at Deers I suspect him for:
Throwing shade on probstown Eric and then backing off
Pushing TF for poor reasoning

1. I never saw you calling Eric a probstown before and now you are saying he is a probstown. Like i said, I misinterpreted something and TF convinced me.
2. When did i pushed TF? I was asking for the reasons.

And btw, You are there trying to have your hands clean doing nothing until someone does something to keep the game going.

Yeah.
The fact Deers kept pushing Eric for that was very scummy.

How was that scummy? And the fact that you pushed LUV to claim for simply trying to get rid of the random vote you had was scummy, actually.

If you agree with his reasons, Mind explaining how his first reason wasnt baseless?

Who are you talking about here

Look at his post
Ari - votes a mason (bad)
Ted - questions Eric's vote on a mason (good)
TwoFace - shades mason (bad) btw this didn't happen, votes mason (bad)
Gamma - votes mason (bad)
Eric - votes mason (bad)

But fitz had one of the masons as a scum read. All these people can't be bad without fitz being bad himself.

Side note - he was voting your slot and unvoted cause he said your contribution was good. Sorry if this is going to hurt your feelings but you made 3 posts when fitz says that. First 2 are nothing and the 3rd was a catch-up post which are NAI and you voted Eric.

Could be fitz trying to pocket you cause that 1 post from you wasn't that great, certainly not enough to drop a scum read. You should be null, not town.

All his scum leans conveniently are the people who thought one of the masons could be scum. That's blatant buddying to me. It's like he's ignoring the points they made just because they were made on a mason.

I stand by my points about misa.
I agree with Eric's points about uzi

I don't know about the others who voted uzi.

The only thing I can't understand is whyis fitz hard town reading hiraki and tvd. I don't think he ever explained either reason and his attack
At uzi came when uzi was considering tvd as possible scum.

This could be something worth looking into later.

Convinced me you are town.

Townies:
LUV
Misa
TF
Ari
Eric

Scums:
Creeps
Gamma

I'm still not sure about fitz. He seem to be trying to put everyone under the radar but will read his all posts within 12 hours. Going off for now.

Also, Forgot to UNVOTE: Eric.

Will come up with someone (who seems a scum) to vote later.

Inconstincy. You say you will vote scum and you have two scum reads and you don't vote either of them.

VOTE: Deer

[TheseViolentDelights]

Hi guys, I'm going to be V/LA until Sunday because of holiday shenanigans. Sorry

[Hiraki]

and all he's done really is dismiss reasons for why people are scum reading Eric.

i've actually quite consistently said that I understand why people say he's scum but I don't agree with those reasons - that's dismissing? you're not getting a wagon on me based on these reasons - try a little harder next time?

I need to examine the SDAVT v/s TwoFace but from slight glances it looks town vs town - if anything my thumb is on SDAVT being scum but that's not anything I would put any money on.

Hiraki and tvd both voted masons yet they don't get shade cast on them but everyone else does?

quite honestly that's why i can't join the havingfitz wagon because these and other reasons sound v fishy and I'm like I have good reasons but I don't really believe in them and no one else does either so...?

[havingfitz]

Happy Thanksgiving to those who celebrate it. I do and am out of town through Saturday. Limited to no posting till then.

[MisaTange]

btw has fitz answered why he townreads some people who pushed for a mason but scumreads other pushers? i agree that there might be scum on the wagon that LUV pushed but uh, yeah

[TwoFace]

quite honestly that's why i can't join the havingfitz wagon because these and other reasons sound v fishy and I'm like I have good reasons but I don't really believe in them and no one else does either so...?

I eagerly await for your anayasis about these fishy reasons. Surely you can explain which ones you find fishy and why.

I'm not sure what you mean by that last sentence. What are you referring to exactly and who are these others that don't believe in whatever it is.


@misa - not yet. That post he made is his first post back since I made the point.

[Hiraki]

I eagerly await for your anayasis about these fishy reasons. Surely you can explain which ones you find fishy and why.

I'm not sure what you mean by that last sentence. What are you referring to exactly and who are these others that don't believe in whatever it is.

i will write a large post and explain - don't doubt me yet

[Vedith]

I still haven't caught up, due to the day and all.
Tomorrow work shall be done

[Lil Uzi Vert]

Hiraki:

Not really, just reread your ISO and it looks like you're kind of soft defending him and giving him advice. I'm still seeing you dismiss any and all suspicion on him because you think he's lying about his experience. You're not taking into account that even if he is, it does not clear him. Outside of activity, can you explain his lack of scumhunting and why he has shown no signs of willing to do so?

I'm struggling see any reason for town to lie about how experienced they're at this game. There is no motivation to do so as town and I believe him when he says he's been playing mafia for a couple of years on another site. Very rarely do we get new members who have no prior experience.

Also took another look at his 161 and not only is it a terrible excuse, it's very manipulative.

As for Deer, I'm not seeing the case for him. I like a lot of the questions he asked and observations he made in his catch-up posts. Only thing that gave me pause is his Creeps SR but that's not really his fault since this is his first time playing with him and he doesn't know his meta. His argument with TF is also probably because he's never played with TF before as well.

Vedith:

Welcome!

[Gamma Emerald]

I mean I'm kinda SRing Creeps too

[Creeps20]

I mean I'm kinda SRing Creeps too

*pops Into existence*
Go ahead. It is normal for me to be scum read. Seriously it helps in some ways

[Aristophanes]

Hello - At work, catch up later.

Oh Em Gee! =D

[Aristophanes]

Who's up for a Fitz lynch today?
His arguments against people are horrendous, and I know he's better than that. I mean like "You voted a Mason before they claimed! You must be scum!" doesn't even make any fucking sense!

VOTE: Fitz

[Hiraki]

You're not taking into account that even if he is, it does not clear him.

so the crux of your argument is that you want me to vote for someone who is clearly scummy (I have not ever denied that he is very scummy on the surface - i'm not really willing to check so if I have, it's a mistake, but i'm like 99% sure I did not) without looking at their experience?

I don't care if someone says that they have 7 years of experience behind them - they certainly haven't demonstrated it in any capacity to my satisfaction. I think that Eric is new(b) town and therefore, as with anyone who is new, most scumtells don't really apply. If you used conventional scumtells in a newbie game, you would mislynch more than scumlynch.

Here's a question - do you honestly think that Eric has 7 years of forum mafia and is unable to deduce/state/etc.:

1) D1 equates to Day 1
2) Roleclaiming on Day 1 is or is not a good idea (difference between taking a stance on one side - that would mean that his website did one but instead he took a very neutral stance)
3) Claiming that he said his reasoning for voting Lil Uzi was told when it was a gut read
4) That the mod, on a site that he is

not

familiar with, is unable to make the roles user-specific
5) Anything more substance based than one or two quotes?

Again - like I said before - there is a chance that Eric is an alt of someone that is faking this. If true, then I'm not very pleased and I'm pretty sure you're supposed to declare if an alt. is an alt. but I'm not very sure on those rules.

I'm struggling see any reason for town to lie about how experienced they're at this game.

This is a fair point I have not considered. However, there is no scum motivation to do so either if the player is trying to win. There is no reason that the person can just make another alt at the end of the day. It does a give a small advantage in having someone (i.e. me) defend him if he is scum but I don't think this is the case.

There is no motivation to do so as town and I believe him when he says he's been playing mafia for a couple of years on another site. Very rarely do we get new members who have no prior experience.

Yeah and when I joined this site back in 2010 after playing a few games, I was garbage compared to everyone on this site. However, that experience was maybe 6 months at most. 7 years is a much bigger number.

Also took another look at his 161 and not only is it a terrible excuse, it's very manipulative.

Which gives more proof to my claims, rather than yours.

@twoface - i didn't think this post would get so big but dw I didn't forget, it is on my agenda for tomorrow

[Hiraki]

EWBOP: also add in that, as I said before, lying to inflate one's ability or ego after everyone is pressuring him is not an uncommon ordeal

[TwoFace]

Take you're time. I'm in no hurry.

Also there is no rule that says you have to declare you're an alt.

[Vedith]

414

Terrible post.
This entire post is based on someone's experience, which cannot be disproven anyway. You agree that neither align benefits from actually lying, so why the hard focus here, Haraki?

[ScumDeersAreVeryTasty]

Hm.
Looking at Deers I suspect him for:
Throwing shade on probstown Eric and then backing off
Pushing TF for poor reasoning

1. I never saw you calling Eric a probstown before and now you are saying he is a probstown. Like i said, I misinterpreted something and TF convinced me.
2. When did i pushed TF? I was asking for the reasons.

And btw, You are there trying to have your hands clean doing nothing until someone does something to keep the game going.

Yeah.
The fact Deers kept pushing Eric for that was very scummy.

How was that scummy? And the fact that you pushed LUV to claim for simply trying to get rid of the random vote you had was scummy, actually.

1: I'm not sure if I did express it but the "newbies aren't scum" thing feels like a genuine townslip, as TF said.
2: your OMGUS accusation
3: what?
4: I kept seeing scummy things from LUV and was still on an RVS vote so I voted an actual scumread. Sorry, IIRC pushing people but not voting for them or at least expressing willingness to is a scumtell.

1: You didnt mentioned it. And I dont trust you for that.
2:You were already in my sus list. And I'm not someone who stays quiet and tries to keep hands clean. I wasnt pushing. It's more like i was interrogating TF. and you susing me for trying to interrogate is BS.
3: I was rather trying to get what TF was trying to say than pushing for him. Why will you trust TF before he gave better explanation, at the first place?
4: Why not just Un-Vote the RV? You risked putting him at L-1.

Hm.
Looking at Deers I suspect him for:
Throwing shade on probstown Eric and then backing off
Pushing TF for poor reasoning

1. I never saw you calling Eric a probstown before and now you are saying he is a probstown. Like i said, I misinterpreted something and TF convinced me.
2. When did i pushed TF? I was asking for the reasons.

And btw, You are there trying to have your hands clean doing nothing until someone does something to keep the game going.

Yeah.
The fact Deers kept pushing Eric for that was very scummy.

How was that scummy? And the fact that you pushed LUV to claim for simply trying to get rid of the random vote you had was scummy, actually.

If you agree with his reasons, Mind explaining how his first reason wasnt baseless?

Who are you talking about here

Look at his post
Ari - votes a mason (bad)
Ted - questions Eric's vote on a mason (good)
TwoFace - shades mason (bad) btw this didn't happen, votes mason (bad)
Gamma - votes mason (bad)
Eric - votes mason (bad)

But fitz had one of the masons as a scum read. All these people can't be bad without fitz being bad himself.

Side note - he was voting your slot and unvoted cause he said your contribution was good. Sorry if this is going to hurt your feelings but you made 3 posts when fitz says that. First 2 are nothing and the 3rd was a catch-up post which are NAI and you voted Eric.

Could be fitz trying to pocket you cause that 1 post from you wasn't that great, certainly not enough to drop a scum read. You should be null, not town.

All his scum leans conveniently are the people who thought one of the masons could be scum. That's blatant buddying to me. It's like he's ignoring the points they made just because they were made on a mason.

I stand by my points about misa.
I agree with Eric's points about uzi

I don't know about the others who voted uzi.

The only thing I can't understand is whyis fitz hard town reading hiraki and tvd. I don't think he ever explained either reason and his attack
At uzi came when uzi was considering tvd as possible scum.

This could be something worth looking into later.

Convinced me you are town.

Townies:
LUV
Misa
TF
Ari
Eric

Scums:
Creeps
Gamma

I'm still not sure about fitz. He seem to be trying to put everyone under the radar but will read his all posts within 12 hours. Going off for now.

Also, Forgot to UNVOTE: Eric.

Will come up with someone (who seems a scum) to vote later.

Inconstincy. You say you will vote scum and you have two scum reads and you don't vote either of them.

VOTE: Deer

I was trying to expand the pool of suspects before i start pushing a wagon on someone. And i was searching for more reasons before getting on a wagon. Plus, I was going off and didnt wanted to leave a blank vote. And you are yet to answer few questions/allegation of mine on you.

Hiraki:

Not really, just reread your ISO and it looks like you're kind of soft defending him and giving him advice. I'm still seeing you dismiss any and all suspicion on him because you think he's lying about his experience. You're not taking into account that even if he is, it does not clear him. Outside of activity, can you explain his lack of scumhunting and why he has shown no signs of willing to do so?

I'm struggling see any reason for town to lie about how experienced they're at this game. There is no motivation to do so as town and I believe him when he says he's been playing mafia for a couple of years on another site. Very rarely do we get new members who have no prior experience.

Also took another look at his 161 and not only is it a terrible excuse, it's very manipulative.

As for Deer, I'm not seeing the case for him. I like a lot of the questions he asked and observations he made in his catch-up posts. Only thing that gave me pause is his Creeps SR but that's not really his fault since this is his first time playing with him and he doesn't know his meta. His argument with TF is also probably because he's never played with TF before as well.

Vedith:

Welcome!

I've indeed played with him about 4-7 games. I know he is scummy almost all of the time. But his vote for a reason which he knows is not NAI for few people pinged me.

Gotta re-read now before voting.

[havingfitz]

Just a quick check in...I will try to respond to specific points/questions nlt Syunday.

I will say I find it funny that I am

1)

being accused/voted (by those I cast suspicion towards btw) of suspecting everyone who suspected/voted for a mason

while at the same time

2)

being criticized for town reading two of the players who voted/suspected a mason.

Point 2 negates point 1

. Which no one seems to even notice. And I readily admitted I suspected both LUV and Misa....but I know I am not scum.

I am not suspecting players of being scum solely based on the fact they suspected/voted a mason. But now that we have the mason claims that is perfectly valid information to consider.

More when I get back.

[TwoFace]

I will say I find it funny that I am 1) being accused/voted (by those I cast suspicion towards btw) of suspecting everyone who suspected/voted for a mason while at the same time 2) being criticized for town reading two of the players who voted/suspected a mason. Point 2 negates point 1. Which no one seems to even notice.

First, how can you say nobody noticed it when I included that as part of suspicion against you? 396
Second, how can you say nobody noticed it when this happened?

btw has fitz answered why he townreads some people who pushed for a mason but scumreads other pushers? i agree that there might be scum on the wagon that LUV pushed but uh, yeah

That right there is somebody else beside me noticing it. That somebody else just happens to be a mason.

You have a couple of questions you need to answer.
368
372 - while this technically isn't a question, please explain why you can call people bad for suspecting a mason pre-claim but it's ok for you to do the same. Include the fact that you should know based on your own previous experience that suspecting a pr before they claim/lynched isn't really AI since you've done the same in other games.
389
396

Consolidated since I've posted a lot. Don't want you to miss any of them.

[MisaTange]

414

Terrible post.
This entire post is based on someone's experience, which cannot be disproven anyway. You agree that neither align benefits from actually lying, so why the hard focus here, Haraki?

Good point

Also

Didn't we agree not to discuss meta?

Or at least the "problem" of Eric having prior experience (being an alt, offsite experience) was dropped?

Vedith: Any commentary on previous pages? Your comment on a comment on this page implies you've read this thread up to this point.

[TwoFace]

Misa, can I get your thoughts on the game? Who's your top 2/3 scum reads?

[MisaTange]

Speaking of which, I've been throwing around a Hiraki/Eric part-scumteam because of Hiraki's 414; his overdefending of Eric. From what I've experienced in newbies/equivalents, newbies =/= dumb. I think this is an "agree-to-disagree" kind of thing, but scumtells

still

apply to newbies: case in point, "newbies like to bus a lot"

@Eric:

When/if you get on, can you please explain your vote on Vedith/Twisted's slot on 170? I don't understand your thought process of Twisted asking you to not rely on meta + pointing out that that the newby "accusing!!!" reasons isn't an effective scumtell and you voting him (implies that it is a candidate for a lynch since we are wayyy beyond RvS, even in that page). also u need to post more if you're town

rereading the thread:
(my scumreads)
Hiraki
Creeps???¿¿

I know for some certainty Hiraki might be scum though

Also I feel strongly about GE/Ari being town at least, Eric gets a gut townread for now (via tone, since that one vote only pings me) so:

VOTE: Hiraki

[Creeps20]

Hm.
Looking at Deers I suspect him for:
Throwing shade on probstown Eric and then backing off
Pushing TF for poor reasoning

1. I never saw you calling Eric a probstown before and now you are saying he is a probstown. Like i said, I misinterpreted something and TF convinced me.
2. When did i pushed TF? I was asking for the reasons.

And btw, You are there trying to have your hands clean doing nothing until someone does something to keep the game going.

Yeah.
The fact Deers kept pushing Eric for that was very scummy.

How was that scummy? And the fact that you pushed LUV to claim for simply trying to get rid of the random vote you had was scummy, actually.

1: I'm not sure if I did express it but the "newbies aren't scum" thing feels like a genuine townslip, as TF said.
2: your OMGUS accusation
3: what?
4: I kept seeing scummy things from LUV and was still on an RVS vote so I voted an actual scumread. Sorry, IIRC pushing people but not voting for them or at least expressing willingness to is a scumtell.

1: You didnt mentioned it. And I dont trust you for that.
2:You were already in my sus list. And I'm not someone who stays quiet and tries to keep hands clean. I wasnt pushing. It's more like i was interrogating TF. and you susing me for trying to interrogate is BS.
3: I was rather trying to get what TF was trying to say than pushing for him. Why will you trust TF before he gave better explanation, at the first place?
4: Why not just Un-Vote the RV? You risked putting him at L-1.

Hm.
Looking at Deers I suspect him for:
Throwing shade on probstown Eric and then backing off
Pushing TF for poor reasoning

1. I never saw you calling Eric a probstown before and now you are saying he is a probstown. Like i said, I misinterpreted something and TF convinced me.
2. When did i pushed TF? I was asking for the reasons.

And btw, You are there trying to have your hands clean doing nothing until someone does something to keep the game going.

Yeah.
The fact Deers kept pushing Eric for that was very scummy.

How was that scummy? And the fact that you pushed LUV to claim for simply trying to get rid of the random vote you had was scummy, actually.

If you agree with his reasons, Mind explaining how his first reason wasnt baseless?

Who are you talking about here

Look at his post
Ari - votes a mason (bad)
Ted - questions Eric's vote on a mason (good)
TwoFace - shades mason (bad) btw this didn't happen, votes mason (bad)
Gamma - votes mason (bad)
Eric - votes mason (bad)

But fitz had one of the masons as a scum read. All these people can't be bad without fitz being bad himself.

Side note - he was voting your slot and unvoted cause he said your contribution was good. Sorry if this is going to hurt your feelings but you made 3 posts when fitz says that. First 2 are nothing and the 3rd was a catch-up post which are NAI and you voted Eric.

Could be fitz trying to pocket you cause that 1 post from you wasn't that great, certainly not enough to drop a scum read. You should be null, not town.

All his scum leans conveniently are the people who thought one of the masons could be scum. That's blatant buddying to me. It's like he's ignoring the points they made just because they were made on a mason.

I stand by my points about misa.
I agree with Eric's points about uzi

I don't know about the others who voted uzi.

The only thing I can't understand is whyis fitz hard town reading hiraki and tvd. I don't think he ever explained either reason and his attack
At uzi came when uzi was considering tvd as possible scum.

This could be something worth looking into later.

Convinced me you are town.

Townies:
LUV
Misa
TF
Ari
Eric

Scums:
Creeps
Gamma

I'm still not sure about fitz. He seem to be trying to put everyone under the radar but will read his all posts within 12 hours. Going off for now.

Also, Forgot to UNVOTE: Eric.

Will come up with someone (who seems a scum) to vote later.

Inconstincy. You say you will vote scum and you have two scum reads and you don't vote either of them.

VOTE: Deer

I was trying to expand the pool of suspects before i start pushing a wagon on someone. And i was searching for more reasons before getting on a wagon. Plus, I was going off and didnt wanted to leave a blank vote. And you are yet to answer few questions/allegation of mine on you.

Hiraki:

Not really, just reread your ISO and it looks like you're kind of soft defending him and giving him advice. I'm still seeing you dismiss any and all suspicion on him because you think he's lying about his experience. You're not taking into account that even if he is, it does not clear him. Outside of activity, can you explain his lack of scumhunting and why he has shown no signs of willing to do so?

I'm struggling see any reason for town to lie about how experienced they're at this game. There is no motivation to do so as town and I believe him when he says he's been playing mafia for a couple of years on another site. Very rarely do we get new members who have no prior experience.

Also took another look at his 161 and not only is it a terrible excuse, it's very manipulative.

As for Deer, I'm not seeing the case for him. I like a lot of the questions he asked and observations he made in his catch-up posts. Only thing that gave me pause is his Creeps SR but that's not really his fault since this is his first time playing with him and he doesn't know his meta. His argument with TF is also probably because he's never played with TF before as well.

Vedith:

Welcome!

I've indeed played with him about 4-7 games. I know he is scummy almost all of the time. But his vote for a reason which he knows is not NAI for few people pinged me.

Gotta re-read now before voting.

I see no questions