Mini Normal 1854: Game Over

[havingfitz]

VOTE: TwoFace

[Hiraki]

havingfitz im v disappointed that you could give eric a scum lean

i thought you would agree with my mindset

[TwoFace]

TwoFace: Very active(good). Early stat theory fluff (~bad).
Shades mason (bad). Misreps (bad) Ted and gets into tiff. Naked
Misa/mason vote (bad). Defensive of Eric (ffr). Says vote on Misa is
gut (Post 262) despite having just given
several reasons for voting her (bad).
Reiterates vote on Misa doesn't have a lot of merit.
General snarkiness. = Scum lean.

Early stat theory stuff is null since that was the conversation going on - to say otherwise is scum motivated imo unless you can explain how staying active in the conversation is bad which nobody can cause it's not.
Shade mason? Where? - pretty sure I didn't so possible misrep here
I certainly didn't misrep ted. Misrep in your part
Naked votes aren't bad - you should know better than that
Defending a town read one who's most likely lynch bait - protown.
Vote on gut but gave reasons is somehow bad? No because gut is usually able to be explained by pointing to things. If you were a newb I could see you making this mistake but you aren't a newb
My vote on misa was good imo, reiterating it isn't bad
Snarkiness - this is non ai, especially since it's my personality

So fitz is probably scum. Too many non ai or non truths being twisted into appearing bad. No way an experienced town player comes to this conclusion.


VOTE: fitz

[TwoFace]

havingfitz im v disappointed that you could give eric a scum lean

i thought you would agree with my mindset

There's no way he's town. It's obvious Eric is town. vote fitz with me

[Gamma Emerald]

I'm just going to say that outing a partner was what I felt was the most pro-town thing to do.

[Hiraki]

im considering it, i haven't been 100% satisfied with the content i've been receiving but I also have a personal bias at havingfitz due to the margins he puts in every post (no offense)

@gamma - i don't think it's as bad as every other person is saying here but you could've waited, maybe have a breadcrumb ready in the early early game? could be as simple as capitalization in first few posts - no one has enough time to look for those.

[TwoFace]

I'm just going to say that outing a partner was what I felt was the most pro-town thing to do.

well you are inexperienced. outing the mason buddy is not a good idea at all.

[TwoFace]

the biggest problem I see with fitz post is he is discrediting people who voted for the masons, when nobody voted a known mason. Just because somebody voted somebody who later claimed mason doesn't mean their vote was bad.

not sure what the term is but he is basically discrediting anyone who voted these people like their play was somehow good. Some people think (myself included) that masons always come off as scummy because they have their own conversations away from the game thread and they can act in a certain way that other townies wouldn't normally act. I know this first hand cause one of my recent games was a mason and my play that game was way different.

[havingfitz]

@Hiraki...your mindset on Eric as I understand it is that you think he is town because he is a newbie and because he is a VI. If this is inaccurate please let me know. With regard to that interpretation...I do not agree with that mindset. 1) Vis and newbies can be scum just as easily as anyone and 2) Several years of mafia experience (albeit not on this site) =/= newbie and the things you are basing your VI read on him for iirc are things that can simply be attributed to being unfamiliar with some aspects of this website. The things he says and does are still fair game for assessing his alignment. I'm not and haven't been willing to just discard him for being new to this site. And your Post 331 seems to hint at you at least being open to considering that Eric could be scum. Prior to the mason claims and Deer replacing in, Eric was lower down on my radar and not in conflict with your adamant mindset. With 3 people who were on my radar now removed for now...he has gone up on my list of suspects. And still not getting my vote despite that btw. And wrt your mindset....it appears to have been wrong on LUV so nothing is perfect.

@TwoFace... You hadn't received a vote yet so it's good to see how quickly you reply with a vote on me in kind. As for your response to my assessment on you:

- I didn't say staying active was bad. You inferring I said this is a misrep and absurd given that I say you are active and that that is good. IMO talking about the statistical odds of hitting scum in a group of four players on P1 of D1 is completely worthless. And going on and on about it serves absolutely no value and just gives the impression of trying. If it's not doing that then it has no place in the game...therefore is not progressing the game at all...and I find that counterproductive...aka suspect.

- I viewed your Post 33 comments towards LUV as trying to plant seeds of suspicion (shade) on him.

- As for the Ted misrep...you claimed Ted inferred Eric had to ~always justify his reads and that Eric "gave no reasons" for his votes. And didn't give reasons for "all of his scum reads."
All Ted said when he voted Eric in Post 142 was that Eric was "throwing out reads with zero backing." "Reads" implies more than one read....not ALL reads. Throughout your debate with Ted he states he was referring to two scumreads in particular. Not all of Eric's reads as you attack him for.

- I'm not saying your naked vote on Misa is bad...I'm saying you voting a mason is bad. Which I can say in my post with the hindsight now that you were voting town. If I didn't assume LUV and Misa were telling the truth I wouldn't have considered you vote negatively.

- Defending a town read...I just point it out for future reference. Null atm. Defensive much?

- I viewed your description of voting Misa as gut more than once after giving several reasons as your ways of backtracking on the vote...giving yourself a little deniability if Misa were lynched and to flip town. A softening of your stance on her while at the same time maintaining your vote on her.

- In hindsight voting town (mason Misa) is bad...yes? Voting town in bad...yes? We have more information at our disposal following the mason claims so that colors your vote on Misa negatively. Comprehend?

- Lovely.

@TwoFace wrt post 357. Why can't I use the mason claims (until they are shown to be false) to discredit any pushes made on them? It's no different than being in D2 of a game after a D1 mislynch and looking back on the mislynch wagon. Stop trying to undermine the information at hand.

[TwoFace]

@TwoFace... You hadn't received a vote yet so it's good to see how quickly you reply with a vote on me in kind. As for your response to my assessment on you:

First you voted me or did you forget?

That doesn't matter though. Your attempt at a case on me is the kind of garbage I don't see town making. Some of your other posts I don't see town making, especially you who I know is a decent player.

To somehow imply my vote on you was bad just shows you can't be town

[Gamma Emerald]

Havingfitz: pushing the masons before they claim is NAI. If you wanted to attack someone for doubting the claim then that would make more sense.

[TwoFace]

@TwoFace wrt post 357. Why can't I use the mason claims (until they are shown to be false) to discredit any pushes made on them? I

I already said I can't remember the term, maybe chainsaw defense? Idk it looks like you're buddying them by calling the people voting them scummy. The votes could be justified but you don't seem to consider that. My vote on misa was completely justified. I don't give a shit if he's a mason, that doesn't change my opinions and I certainly am not going to change that now. I was wrong cause he is town, but that doesn't mean I'm scum or even scummy.

[Hiraki]

And your Post 331 seems to hint at you at least being open to considering that Eric could be scum.

moreso just trying to stir discussion, i won't vote eric this game

your analysis is almost spot on except that I also think that eric is lying from a town position - it's a radical theory but it's a theory. how do you feel about that aspect?

[Lil Uzi Vert]

I don't blame Gamma for wanting me to out my partner because I don't think anyone was going to believe me if I didn't. As for Creeps, from my experience, he's like this and is going to most likely be a difficult read. We'll see what he brings to the table Day 2.

I'm not sure what is it about this game but I'm having more trouble than usual with reads. I liked what I've seen from Deer outside of his Ari town reading. Other than the scolding of why it wasn't wise for how the mason thing went down, I don't really have a reason to TR Ari. I was liking the questions Fitz was asking but scum reading people for voting me when they didn't know I was a mason is dumb but that's not enough for me to cast my vote there. TF seems to be being his usual self, although he did seem a little protective than need be of Eric early on when it came to his play style. Frank and TVD need to post more.

Honestly I feel Hiraki is scum. I've been going back and forth as to whether he was just blindly tunneling or not but I can't help but feel he's the reason we are at right now. The game literally turned into about me once he stated why he voted for me and all he's done really is dismiss reasons for why people are scum reading Eric.

VOTE: Hiraki

[TwoFace]

And your Post 331 seems to hint at you at least being open to considering that Eric could be scum.

moreso just trying to stir discussion, i won't vote eric this game

your analysis is almost spot on except that I also think that eric is lying from a town position - it's a radical theory but it's a theory. how do you feel about that aspect?

Idk if I'd say his analysis is spot on.

I could see Eric lying to inflate his experience though idk why he would.

[TwoFace]

I viewed your Post 33 comments towards LUV as trying to plant seeds of suspicion (shade) on him.

If stating facts is casting shade to you, sure you could say that but luv didn't use a random reason and I was justified in pointing that out. That's called scum hunting, something I know you know how to do. You're only twisting it against me now given the mason claim but that doesn't change anything. Facts are facts. Pointing them out is protown, not scummy.

As for the Ted misrep...you claimed Ted inferred Eric had to ~always justify his reads and that Eric "gave no reasons" for his votes.

Ted said Eric didn't explain his reads. I called him on it because he did explain one of them. Was it a mistake by ted? Probably but again I pointed out the facts. I didn't misrep anyone.

I'm not saying your naked vote on Misa is bad...I'm saying you voting a mason is bad.

So my vote was only bad after they claimed mason? Bullshit and if you're town you would know that. sorry the mason claim doesn't automatically make all votes on that person scummy. I guarantee I could find examples of you voting a person who later claimed a PR. That alone would give any town player pause. The vote on a mason alone means nothing, especially if the person was justifying their vote which I did.

Defending a town read...I just point it out for future reference. Null atm. Defensive much?

If it's null there was no reason to mention it. And yes I'm defensive all the time. Why mention it like it means something? If you dare say defensive is scummy I'll destroy this game making sure you get lynched cause site meta has proven time and time again defensive is a charachter trait of a player and not a legitimate scumtell.

I viewed your description of voting Misa as gut more than once after giving several reasons as your ways of backtracking on the vote...giving yourself a little deniability if Misa were lynched and to flip town. A softening of your stance on her while at the same time maintaining your vote on her.

Gtfoh. Explaining why I have a gut read on them and keeping my vote on them is giving myself deniability of softening my stance? You can't be serious. By adding to my vote I'm commuting myself more to that read making it harder to get away from it. You aren't this bad.

In hindsight voting town (mason Misa) is bad...yes? Voting town in bad...yes? We have more information at our disposal following the mason claims so that colors your vote on Misa negatively. Comprehend?

Is voting misa before I knew she was amasin bad? 100% no way
Is voting town bad? Sure but I didn't know she's town so you can't use that against me.

I guess I do need to find games where you voted a town PR. The fact you act like town can't be wrong and it automatically makes anyone who voted a mason scummy means you're hypocrite or scum.

I mean technically you're voting town right now havingfitz, so you're bad or scum your self. I'll gamble with scum because your entire points against me is at best Examples of good town play, at worst NAI

[TwoFace]

That didn't take long. You pushed a lynch d1 on a town pr and you weren't scum - http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p6973570

What you did was way worse yet somehow my justified vote on an unknown who later claimed mason means I'm scummy?

Yeah you're scum.

[TwoFace]

TF seems to be being his usual self, although he did seem a little protective than need be of Eric early on when it came to his play style.

Mainly because he looks like an easy target. Scum salivate on these kind of people. People like to discredit the top scummy to be scum theory but I've seen it proven a bunch. Hell in my early days I was victim to it myself.

I'll look at the people voting Eric later but I don't think he's a good lynch today (well ever but I do realize I could be wrong about him). I just don't see scum intent in any of his actions. Even n00b scumis going to try and look
Town, he doesn't look like he's trying to do that.

[TwoFace]

Just because ... Sometimes you dont need a reason .. All my posts have a meaning and it helps me and not the team ... I am not a very good team player because my style is completely different from the others .... My job is to make my alignment win ... I'll do that even if I have to deceive my own alignment ... And I'm out .. Hope the KP comes soon

@Fitz

You said this is a bad post. Please explain to the class why on earth if he were scum would he dare say such a thing.

Once you're done I'll explain why scum would not make this post

[Gamma Emerald]

VOTE: havingfitz
With TwoFace on this. HF is pushing stuff that is not actually scummy.

[Dierfire]

Prodding TheseViolentDelights

[TwoFace]

Let's not forget that havingfitz also suspected a mason. sure he didn't vote him, but that shouldn't matter.

[TwoFace]

@LUV...not a big fan of the "TVD might be the most
optimal play" theory you are suggesting. Said when you still have an
RVS vote sitting on me and when your next vote winds up on Eric. This
after your post 109 where you say TVD would have the strongest chance
of flipping scum if he was a D1 lych candidate.

So @fitz, this post to me proves what I'm saying. A pr can make posts that appear scummy and the suspicion towards them genuine. If you were town, you should have conceded that before you decided to cast shade on anyone who actually voted one of them.

The only difference is you didn't actually cast a vote but if you're town that shouldn't matter.

[Dierfire]

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[Dierfire]

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