Mini Normal 1843 - Endgame

[BlackVoid]

Glad we got that straightened out!

Who are your partners?

[Jaack]

I am here, sorry been swamped.

Will catch up in the morning

[BlackVoid]

But more to the point GM, why on earth are you wasting your time telling me that you could be scum? I'd expect more time devoted to stuff like dismantling Rask's case on you and stuff that actually matters.

It almost feels like you feel very guilty that I'm townreading you and you can't help yourself from refuting each and every single point I've made pointing out why you are town. Maybe I've been wrong this whole time.

[goodmorning]

1550: To tell you that would be against the rules!

1552: Why should I waste time responding to Rask's case when nobody seems to give a flying fuck about it?

[goodmorning]

like, you can fight fire with fire, sure


but maybe it's better to fight fire with ice.

[BlackVoid]

Not in defense. His case on you was actually really scummy and I was hoping you'd be able to point it out.

[goodmorning]

I didn't think it was that scummy, just a bit silly/misguided.

[goodmorning]

(but if you thought it was then you're welcome to explain why)

[Jaack]

Actually, I'd rather post than sleep right now

As for the Hoopla wagon and related breakdown of the sotty wagon, I'm actually feeling more confident in sotty being scum at this point then I was when I unvoted (where I was starting to doubt myself due to cloud's activities). D1, the BBT/GI wagon stalled and people unvoted on occasion, but it never collapsed at any point. The sotty wagon, meanwhile, collapsed as soon as I unvoted and started looking elsewhere. I think that points to some scum bussing but looking for an easy out. There's a lot of 'not totally buying that claim but whatever' going around as well which I think feeds into that theory as well. As for hoopla herself

People unvoted because of the claim from what I can tell. Not because you unvoted and looked elsewhere. Can you explain to me why you're debating if I could be a scum role cop or not, or why that makes any sense to do at this point? The two paragraghps at the start of this post make no sense to me. The whole post is disjointed. You could have just came out and said "I don't believe the claim" and revoted. It would have made more sense.

I'll try and clarify a bit since people seem to be having trouble.

I unvoted you in 1403 afte Cloud gave intent. He later stated that he was trying to get a claim although he did not vote you to put you back at L-1. That's where I felt the wagon sort of stalled, although now that I'm thinking about it, it was 100% cloud who stalled it by not revoting.

I brought up the role cop thing because BV brought it up in 1457 where he said that he suspected you were a scum investigative. I tried to work out why you as scum would investigate me in anyway, and came to the conclusion that if scum had a rolecop and targeted me with it last night, than victor is likely lying about being a mason, as I would imagine that scum would use their rolecop to try and find the other mason. That being said, now that I'm actually explaining this more I realize that that is not the most useful insight because we could never confirm if a scum investigative targeted me N1. Whatever. You probably aren't going to get lynched again today so it's unlikely to matter right now.

I also just noticed that I left out my analysis of hoopla in my post in question aside from the transition into it. I do want to talk about hoopla's wagon, but I want to talk about cloud more first because I feel like I'm the only one concerned with this.

I first want to highlight posts 1447, 1456, and 1477. All three were from when I was trying to illucidate cloud's behavoir towards the sotty wagon. All three posts feel like cloud is talking to someone he believes is town - he's not trying to antagonize me and tries to play it up like I'm just making a mistake and I've got him all wrong.

Then he votes me in 1483, right after maria does, later justifying it with my 'inconsistency' (1509). The general feeling I get is that when I was pushing him he was trying to make my suspicion go away, but now that I'm a viable lynch option he's totally willing to jump on that.

Okay now I really need to sleep. I would respond more to the fact that I'm being wagoned but I already know that one of the people on my wagon (maria) has literally no reason for scumreading me, and no one else has given anything concrete.

[BlackVoid]

@GM, how can we work together to lynch scum? It seems like you are hopping off of every good wagon because of paranoia. Sotty7 is scum and a great wagon. Hoopla is also scum. You sort of talked yourself out of both wagons and finally winded up on obvtown Creature. We can't lynch scum without wagons being formed. What are you expecting exactly? That every person who votes Hoopla write a thesis about why she's scum? Creature doesn't seem like a player who gives lots of reasoning for his reads. You claim you are townreading me so my presence on the wagon shouldn't deter you. IAI has always suspected Hoopla so there's no surprises there? Can we get back to lynching Hoopla? Would you be willing to lynch Rask instead?

[VictorDeAngelo]

UNVOTE:

I am really behind in this game. Can someone on the relevent wagons point me towards the best case towards Jaack/Hoopla? I'll shift my vote to one of them today.

[Sotty7]

I apologize I was busier this weekend than expected. I will try and catch up before work, but it's more likely to come tonight when I get back.

[Creature]

Oh right, we have 4 days and 8 hours.

[Creature]

Does Hoopla usually scumslip and then lurks as town?

[Creature]

consistency is NOT A TOWN TRAIT

Not a scum trait either.

[CloudKicker]

''Then he votes me in 1483, right after maria does, later justifying it with my 'inconsistency' (1509). The general feeling I get is that when I was pushing him he was trying to make my suspicion go away, but now that I'm a viable lynch option he's totally willing to jump on that.''

Youre not wrong in that i did appeal to you, you still didnt come around and now i want you to claim, saying iam the one who staled the sotty's wagon by not putter her on L-1 when YOU unvoted is being hypocrite and flawed logic boi

[CloudKicker]

And consistency is a town leaning trait for the record

[Creature]

Does Hoopla usually scumslip and then lurks as town?

Apparently scum shit bricks when she's town.

[I Am Innocent]

Rask, what's ur read on Hoopla?

[goodmorning]

@GM, how can we work together to lynch scum? It seems like you are hopping off of every good wagon because of paranoia. Sotty7 is scum and a great wagon. Hoopla is also scum. You sort of talked yourself out of both wagons and finally winded up on obvtown Creature. We can't lynch scum without wagons being formed. What are you expecting exactly? That every person who votes Hoopla write a thesis about why she's scum? Creature doesn't seem like a player who gives lots of reasoning for his reads. You claim you are townreading me so my presence on the wagon shouldn't deter you. IAI has always suspected Hoopla so there's no surprises there? Can we get back to lynching Hoopla? Would you be willing to lynch Rask instead?

Creature's not Town. He's playing a very superficial game atm. He's way too consistent. He doesn't rock the boat. He keeps quietly joining leading wagons for no particular reason.

I don't expect a Rask essay, but I expect a decent reason.

I don't change my mind about voting wagons based on who's on them.

I don't know why you're trying so hard to appeal to me in particular.

consistency is NOT A TOWN TRAIT

Not a scum trait either.

Consistency is like a clock. The area between about 11 and 1 is scummy. 100% consistency is at 12 o'clock. 0% consistency is at 11:59.

When you tell a lie, you're far more likely to be completely consistent. When you're telling the truth, especially if it's a long story, you're more likely to have to correct small details.

And consistency is a town leaning trait for the record

Nope. See above.

I've ranted about this a lot in the past, ftr.

[goodmorning]

(in case anyone wants to go look and see it better explained and better structured)

[Creature]

Playstyles exist.

[goodmorning]

Spoiler: actually i like to see myself talk so here

Being consistent is a town tell,

Actually, being too consistent is a scumtell. We're trained to think 'consistency = good' from a very young age, but if I change 'consistency' to, say 'keeping his story straight,' suddenly I have the same meaning, but his story's too consistent - he's memorised the details of what he wants us to think happened.

RE: Indecisiveness: Here in the West, especially America, we've been trained to think that consistency is "good."
Actually, though, someone being too consistent is almost certainly lying - he's keeping his story straight. Some inconsistency is a good thing; not only does it show someone not worrying about being believed, it also shows someone willing to synthesize evidence and change his mind if the evidence dictates such.
Too much inconsistency, though - think fence-sitting, flip-flopping, wishywashiness - goes back to being a bad thing. In Mafia it can be used by Scum to play the opportunistic game.

If that makes sense.

Consistency is a trap a lot of newbScum fall into because we've been wired to think of consistency as good; in actuality, Town have reads progressions, growing and changing with new materials and assessments.
You can go through mild inconsistency and come out the other side - we call that fencesitting. That's nearly as scummy as consistency, though Town do it much more often.

When we lie, we're likely to keep our story very consistent; it makes it easier to remember. When we're telling the truth, we may forget things, have to reassess, e.g. "It was 5:00 - no, more like 5:30."
For some reason we in the US expect our politicians to be consistent. When new info comes up I guess they're just supposed to ignore it?
They can go too far - their fencesitting is what we all know as flipflopping.

[Creature]

Oh nice, now we'll talk about why not frequently changing reads is a scum tell.

[Creature]

Hoopla and MariaR haven't done much to change my reads on them.