Mini Normal 1843 - Endgame

[Raskolnikov]

Hoopla are you always this bubbly?

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Disclaimer, I'm on a loss streak and I'm going to be changing my style here a bit.

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VOTE: maria

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I actually like what GM said about BBT unless it's a super catered pocketing attempt. Also him saying the game was annoying I think mirrors how I felt about people arguing over the dice, although that's an assumption.

I'm wondering what the likelihood is micheal would issue that PSA #1 as scum, I think very low. The only issue is the chance he thought of it from pre-game and planned to say it regardless of role pm, instead of just now (makes sense given the circumstances).

No scumleads yet though.

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I liked it because it's what I thought, I had a lot of trouble with BBT our last 2 games. One game it took me 4 days to make my mind up on him, but he mislynched me, next game I mislynched him day 1 and got nightkiilled. The caveat is because it's an assumption I would have to later check it again, but it was okay for early.

Ironically, now that I said that and people actually voted me for it, 47 rubs me the opposite way. People won't like me saying this, but fuck it.

As for the qualifiers point, this is lame but I do think like that. People hate wishywashyness so much though, sometimes I bury the doubts down and just present a simplified viewpoint to make things easier for people. But then again I've been getting nightkilled early in recent games so this might be for the best.

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Of those on my wagon.

Blackvoid vote has understandable reasoning and I like him thinking that way. BBT's makes sense because he'd probably want to sort me based of our experience, but there are caveats. twoface/sotty is blank/neutral, I assume the "justification" is to get an early wagon going but I can't read into alignment on that so much.

I don't like hoopla vote justified on association; If you scumread someone enough this early to look at associations, I think you'd keep pushing them instead. 57 is a little ridiculous.

In my own experience I love to push association tells as scum (because it's easy and low-commitment) and people rarely call you out for pushing things on it.

I also enjoy
a) linking a scumpartner with a townie in associations, best case scenario townie lynch makes the scumpartner look better, worst case scum gets lynched and get the townie in return
b) super scumread a scum for strong reasons but end up pushing/voting town for weak reasons
but in this case, although the switch by hoopla from gm to me is weird I don't think that was distancing. I would imagine goodmorning would have fought hoopla back a bit more if that was the goal, instead of voting victor. Same with goodmorning's comment on being annoyed earlier.

Mostly though, the post saying she feels her scumread is about to crack under pressure but she changes vote is absurd to me. You pressure someone and then right when you feel you're almost there, you switch to something like an weak association as town. I think the frustration in 62 is over the top considering she didn't really put that much effort into changing people's minds. Again, anecdotal, but as scum I love to complain about "oh no I have to do this because everyone else" and not take responsibility or effort into fighting against it and changing people's minds (for obvious reasons)... she didn't really push gm with much effort before complaining like this, if you look at the iso.

VOTE: Hoopla

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And yeah, omgus. Bite me.

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^That's the third mirroring tell this in game now. Twoface probably didn't read my post before saying that.

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That was directed at those who are probably lazy like BBT or sotty if town, because the formulaic thing I've seen done with fastwagons is you look at the reaction and judge on that including if omgus or not.

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If people only used valid tells mafia would be a very different game

But I think you mean popular/generally accepted? I still see it personally, even if most disagree.

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And yeah, omgus. Bite me.

eh, this comment was unnecessary cause omgus as a valid tell died years ago

p,edit - you're right, i didn't

I wonder what's your main account now.

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It doesn't, but I'm going to naturally stay curious anyways and wonder if you're someone I played with before.

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Well it would help with meta but the assumption is you made an alt exactly to prevent that.
But the fun is, if I have played with you, in somehow figuring it out because it's a mystery just like scumhunting. But this is getting offtopic.

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Mostly though, the post saying she feels her scumread is about to crack under pressure but she changes vote is absurd to me.

I feel like it's fairly obvious from context that I am just teasing goodmorning (she seems like a good kid imo and I might invite her to start a town bloc if/when she proves her innocence to me) -- but really, who could resist such a juicy wagoning opportunity this early in the game?

Okay, if you're town stop talking like this then.

It's vague as to when you're "serious" or not which makes any given action low-commitment. If an opinion is convenient to hold on to, you can later say it was serious. If inconvenient, you can say it wasn't.
But in this case that feels like a stretch. You voted on dice and then said you voted not for it which implied it was at least somewhat serious, as well as what you said about switching. It's almost goes too far really.

Whatever align this has to end. Anyone can realise the issue here; if someone is disingenuous and saying things they don't mean as town, you are not any different from scum being disingenuous and saying things they don't mean. This behaviour from town makes scumhunting difficult so it shouldn't be allowed on principle past RVS (is this still rvs?) unless it's very obvious to be joking, which evidently it was not. And it gives scum an out when people do find a slip up.

It also just annoys me, but that's because I am a uptight bastard who gets bothered seeing people all cheerful-like and having fun... But that's not relevant here.
*ahem*

I want a serious read from you on me as leading wagon, goodmorning (good kid? is that a read or personality?), and whatever else you can offer. Underneath your attitude, I am vaguely familiar with your experience and particularly game knowledge from the setup theory threads, and even if this particular thing hadn't happened, I would want something from you anyways at this point to judge.

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Havent outed a single read

can you please link me to where you have outed reads, I have trouble locating them when looking over your iso.

Have a bit of an issue with this. He does have a point on you although you deflect it to him. The deflection doesn't make sense either, he did out reads from his first post even, and his iso is full of analysis.

Now I don't think this is necessarily terrible as it could just be antisocial/lazy, but I do think you should give an opinion or stance at this point now like what he said.

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Hoopla, don't you think that your bubblyness, as Rask calls it, should have drawn more reactions then it did? Are there players in his game who you expected would comment on it, but didn't?

I came out all guns blazing yet with no expectations about reactions at all. I know it sounds crazy, but I think I managed to pull it off.

...how would you fail to pull it off?

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Am I in the twilight zone?

You may not like it, but it's already netted us an L-2 wagon so I must be doing something right.

You seem to be taking credit for this wagon which I don't get. Not only that, but justifying your playstyle with it (??).
Even if you assume any early wagon is good as it starts the game, I'm pretty sure your style was not the cause of this at all and that doesn't somehow negate or address my actual, explicitly voiced problems with it.

Me: I have a problem with your play for X Y and Z reasons
Answer: [doesn't respond to points] it got us this l-2 wagon so it must be good!

Will anyone see my problem with this?

If you actually think like this, UGH.

I thought BlackVoid's post illuminating your overly qualifier-y post was good and I like to reward good posts with wagon support.

Okay, we're starting to get into sensible territory.
Do you know what though? I townread black for that post as well. I don't think he is scum who faked that perspective.
The question isn't if you think it's a good post or not, it's if you agree with what's said as something alignment indicative.

If you're town and think playing the game "rewarding" good posts with votes without having your own opinion is a good approach, I don't know what to say. For starting an rvs wagon, okay. It's still earlygame for now.
But if you play like this midgame or later (well you see your honor, I lynched him yesterday to reward a good post) it might be actually be for the best if I'm out of this early.

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I have seen some hammers in my time.

I also don't trust anyone here. Even those I'm familiar with. Actually, especially them.

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I mean, I suppose someone who, if they actually like to "reward" people for good posts by voting with them, could fail the see the issue with relying on other people.

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I like BBT more for scum at this point. He came in with a vote on Rask to start a wagon, there were already two other players with two votes at the time Blackvoid and gm. It seems to be an attempt to sort Rask which comes quick and with no further elaboration. I would have expected more considering the history they both speak to. Feels like he started the wagon then panicked a little when it took off. I also remember BBTScum being very no nonsense cutting to the heart of the matter, were as townBBT being more open.

Unvote, Vote: BBT

Rask - What do you think of BBT now? Is my meta outdated?

Lol. I don't have enough content to read BBT as of yet here, so your conclusion could actually be right, but for all the wrong reasons.
I'm pretty sure he isn't incompetent as to join a clearly growing wagon and not expect it to continue growing, or to "panic" from the l-2 and have that justify his next actions... I think your meta is really bad here.
From what I remember from my research BBT has no fear hardpushing mislynches, him at the forefront, no fucks given*. So to imagine him as an innocent scum babe not knowing what he was getting into and then overreacting/panicking from something like this doesn't fit at all.

If BBT is scum who actually wanted to lynch me, he wouldn't join the early wagon like this for the reason of "wanting to get a wagon going", but instead have built up a serious case and powerpushed it. Probably near mid-end of day as well for more likely results. He knows how to push, with or without case, so he wouldn't half-ass something he wants to get done; saying you vote for the sake of getting a wagon going early would inherently undermine that goal.

If he's scum his intentions would have been different than that and more sophisticated. The better theory is; he, as scum saw an opportunity there to join that early wagon, expect pressure and me to towntell and then the chance to be one of the first to call me town and then try to work with me, and get me onside against the others who have voted me. He would know I'd fight strongly against the lynch and give the opportunity that a turn like that would be plausible. In other words, the complete opposite intention as what you proposed. He knows from experience I'd have a hard time trusting him so this would be a chance for him to try to have a rapport/buddying with me through this; that would be the actual incentive.

Which realistically is a still a conspiracy theory... I could easily see this play from his as town too, and I can't judge as of yet. His default playstyle is very low information especially earlygame and there's a "it's just day 1 I'm not overthinking things yet" element I remember seeing from town-him. With this wagon though and pressure, I do look forward to seeing more in-depth reasoning and information though. It would be easier to judge the turn if it was explained why he townread me and changed his mind. In any case I'll need some more time on this.

This aside, I haven't read up fully yet, but I myself hope to find something I do think is probably scum to vote as opposed to "well I don't know he ISN'T scum" paranoia.

*possibly not that different from his t game OOOH BURN *sizzle*

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I'm having mixed feelings cause the first part of Scotty's post felt like BS but I agree with the BBT read started the bw and when rask towntold knew it wasn't gonna get far and got off rather quick
Of course could just be town who saw the towntell and got off but saying it's a scumread makes me seem smart so!

I tr rask not because a wagon happened but because the few posts made they seem like the town meta that I've played with Rask before. I don't know about the others

Re reading the BBT scum train I take back the sr
I think him getting the wagon going was just wanting to get a wagon going and when Rask became obv town to me he unvoted so if I sr him for that I'd find myself scummy also LMFAO
This semi depends on why he tr rask because we prob have dif reasons but lets see

So I'm a little confused here. If I'm following correctly, you townread from specific meta but wonder (and initially assumed) BBT may or may not have read for the same reasons. But I'd assume if you townread someone from specific meta you have with them, no one came to that read the same way as you, or even could have. You seem to partially realise this in the last quote but it's still a bit huh. In no universe would I think someone is reading someone the same way I am if I'm using super specific meta (which like, secret tells I've never shared).

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UNVOTE:

I'm with BlackVoid. BBT a good vote.

VOTE: BlueBloodedToffee

I also think MariaR could be a good vote as well.

I know you've since moved, but could you go into why this was. A few sentences/brief summary is fine.

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Mmm this is annoying. I have a bunch of townreads and the rest are people who are good enough that I can't tell, but don't feel a big substantial satisfying scumlead.

Twoface being like antisocial and giving a "fuck you" vibe doesn't get any points but it's hard to judge it from style from an alt without meta available. Him not voting anyone despite seeming to have problems with people is kind of weird to me. Would think he'd vote victor or maybe cloud at this point given the things he said.

Don't know wtf maria is doing in terms of vote either (???). Hope this isn't gonna be hoopla again and I'm just annoyed at people for joking or something though.

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Because Victor's being much worse. Toffee is at least trying to do

something

.

Victors pushing things though? Saying he did less than BBT in this game is kind of a stretch.

The part I do agree with is I want him to explain his reads.

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how am I being anti-social? I am having conversations with people which is the exact opposite of that. I also don't think I have given off an FU vibe to anyone other than maybe cloud and that's because he said he can't read me. I don't care if people can read me or not, but people can at least make an effort to. Cloud hasn't been asking me any questions or trying to get my opinions on things. He criticized me for not giving any reads but never bothered to ask if I even have any or not.

Well. I think initially the coin gimmick, the "I don't care what people think about me" attitude, and then when people ask you things you turn it back on them is what gives me that impression. That's the less important part of what I said though, it's that you seem to have issue with victor and cloud but vote neither.

I mean from this answer and last post I think you're saying you actually just want to try understand them and get on the same page, which would justify not yet voting, although if so, you're approach towards that is kind of horrendous and has the opposite effect.

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Are you wondering who I'd be willing to vote Rask? Hm good question!

Well I only have 2 people in mind so far but I want more content from these 2 lovely people for now keep doing what you're doing everyone it's impressing me~

Well that and what the fuck was that micheal vote.

Which 2 people?

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Twoface and goodmorning?

God why do you people love being intentionally vague.
Do you like miscommunication? Do people actually enjoy when things like the "Innocent" thing happen and apparently hoopla?
Is there something fun about having little mini word games every step of the way?

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Like it would literally take less effort to say it than make that post about why not

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@TF It's not that it's specifically bad for you (I would assume you'd do this every game anyways with the flavour), but if you're having a hard time judging people you're going to fucking doubt the person flipping a coin for his decisions over a someone doing things via an in-depth explanation. But anyways that was a minor point so this is going off a tangent.

Congratulations though, that's a decent explanation. I'm wondering if I recognise whose behind the alt as well now.

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VOTE: goodmoring

I think I want this wagon. Tone does kind of bother me.
Was about to vote victor actually but his response makes me think town, and goodmorning's push on him has been weird.

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So, why the GM push on victor is weird.

Starts with, after victor's rvs post, gm switches vote to him. Okay, but I can't follow it without an explanation. The implication is this isn't random.
112 is after BBT voted and unvoted on me,gm says "I kind of want to vote Toffee now but I really don't want to forget about Victor.". I think this justification is a little strange, I'm curious as to how the rvs post could warrant this suspicion over if you didn't like bbt's play around the wagon. Victor's 2nd post of the game is 162 which is afterwards so I have to conclude GM has a problem with the 1st.

Then after victor posted more, gm explained his read on both bbt and victor as scum for not doing anything, and later that victor was far worse than bbt. Mentioned this already but I don't see how you make that conclusion as I feel it's almost objective fact victor has been more involved.

Overall this isn't saying much other than it's a little weird and I'm having trouble understanding it, but this is worth exploring. I want to know what made the rvs-post bad and how victor has been "far worse" than BBT here. And to keep in mind, out all the things going on the in the game, this is the priority, or what GM would think is the most promising lead.

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See I thought the tortoise and the hare reference would have cleared things up for you. Since that's an elementary level story.

LOL this snark though

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If I'm being honest though, it's because I don't like the over the top HEY IM NOT SRS tone in mostly 112
but it's difficult to separate how I feel on that AI-wise from my inherent bias against such things... it all sort of mixes together

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Sorry I'll work on being less snarky

but I enjoyed that one

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Go look at his entrance again. He comes in near the end of page two, throws a completely random vote, doesn't engage with the game in any way. Try and tell me that's in any way Town.

Are you kidding me

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There's truth in him not having explained his reads, but hot damn if that rvs analysis and comparison to bbt isn't reaching.

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My problem with Rask's case on Hoopla was that he was finding Hoopla scummy for things Hoopla does all the time. Things like dice tag voting are just reaction testing things she does. He would then go on to push Hoopla's suspicion of gm which I felt was pretty obvious how strong that was. I just felt like he was missing the point by a wide mark, which is why I made the comment about not having experience with Hoopla. Other Rask's posts lately feel good though, his case on GM is kinda like his case on Hoopla, so I'm thinking that's just how he reads potential scummy behavior, more black and white and less in between the lines.

Wait this is interesting, didn't notice this.

Why was missing the point or not knowing hoopla meta something scummy to you?
I got the impression you voted for gamestate or the sake of getting an early wagon, but the contrast here with "his other posts are good" implies you scumread my case on hoopla.
But I don't see how "it's wrong, you don't know her/have experience with her like I do" equates into a scumread, even though I know you said you had changed your mind since then.

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This is starting to get confusing.

GM can you go into your 1-2 of your other reads so I can judge them instead of this exchange?

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I THINK I like sotty now, although it really doesn't help that I saw her mentioned in the goat thread, and now that I check again its for scumplay no less.

PoE is actually starting to push BBT and IAI down at this point... GM still fishy but victor himself is one of my fringe townleans, and the whole exchange feels muddled. That said, probably not SonS.

Cloud was one of my better townreads but I don't know what the fuck he's doing now.

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Don't feel like hoopla is pressuring sotty at all despite the vote.

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While you're here, Rask:

I got a little lost while interrogating Maria. You seem to know her well -- what do you make of her this game? What's her scum meta like?

The way to read maria is to take your normal read and then assume the opposite.

No but I don't really want to share this one, I think I have a tell or two but I'm not sure myself if it's accurate yet.
Our last game I was trying to use it, without it I'd have scumread her more but because of the tell I had her at nullscum and lower priority than my other leads. But I died before I really made up my mind on her. She was town after all but it wasn't that conclusive a test.

Feel free to do research of your own though, that'd probably be interesting for me to read and compare at least (2 things - 1. her alt is xsonianevermindx with extra games/sample size, 2. she plays with people she knows from epicmafia, which makes her more relaxed/joking in some games, do not confuse that with an alignment tell).

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I have a new conspiracy theory that involves BBT and sotty distancing while voting other people.

For BBT the maria scumread is for being useless/idling and relative to the sotty read you should feel the latter is stronger, as it's sotty pushing BBT for what bbt says is a very shallow way.
Sotty has what sounds like a strong bbt read too but wants to lynch twoface for something that sounds a lot weaker and kind of lame. Earlier pushing of each other is reasonable to assume wouldn't go that far, given weak reasonings given at that point. Sotty asking me if his bbt meta was outdated possibly expected me to say it was.

This is very hypocritical with what I said about earlier associations before I know but even so I can't unsee it. I recommend people look at the reads in the ISOs and try to form their own opinion here. Again, aware this is a wild really out-there theory but thinking of such things is just far more exciting than taking it slow.

I've been thinking more about sotty and when she said her strength as scum in selfmeta was with associations I had started to wonder if she was scum, what read would be her partner. Admittedly it is WIFOM in that it assumes at least half-true selfmeta from scum but even so.

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VOTE: Sotty

Sotty is pushing twoface but bbt pushing maria I can at least understand. Pretty sure twoface is town but not nearly so sure on maria.

@BBT right now you're supposed to read what I said and react to it

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@BV Lol, I actually thought about that but it was starting to go too far for even me. I kind of wish you didn't mention that actually.

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@BV The thing is, looking at just the facts, BBT's push on maria is still reasonable. Maria's response isn't usual if you compare to most players but not really out of line with her usual omgusy/reactive style.
It's at this point still possible one of my townreads will do something to make me reconsider them, cloud I'm fading a bit on and furthermore IAI isn't even ingame.

I'm still not entirely sure BBT is scum even if sotty is. Problem is that individually, if you throw out associations he's more null than a scumread to me.

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I like to put my vote to work, with BBT's inactivity I didn't find in towns best interest to just sit around and let the game get stagnant. I'm going to move my vote, I'm going to pressure people. It's the name of the game and it was part of the reason I wanted twoface to commit with a vote. I have a feeling that if I had left my vote on BBT, he would have found that scummy as well.

Maybe it's just me, but if I think someone's scum I'm usually not too concerned if they "think" something I do is scummy.

Now, the vote away while BBT was inactive isn't so bad. But when you say his catchup was scummy again in 416 I kind of expected a change back, and you were even conscious of vote there given your statement to mod.

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prodge

Want sotty or goodmorning

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GreyICE (6)

-

Sotty7

,

Hoopla

,

MichelSableheart

,

BlackVoid

,

VictorDeAngelo

,

I Am Innocent

L-1,

Sotty7 (3)

-

Jaack

,

Raskolnikov

,

TwoFace

[Raskolnikov]

Huh, I don't remember maria ever putting this much work into a case as either scum or town before

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No ones counterwagoning greyice

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There's just the small town sotty wagon and a bunch of vanitys

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Scum wouldn't vanity right? they'd either CW or bus I think

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sotty/bbt theory still holds up though and especially against the why-no-cw logic

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Well if that isn't a melodramatic ridiculously over the top read greyice I don't know what is
no comment on the rest but who needs to read any further when you can make out a small (nai?) disclaimer to be the rosetta stone

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That's like, manipulative, dude

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I don't want you lynched but what should I do about it

I'm just got back and even when I was here I wasn't really as invested as everyone else

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Your thoughts have value IF you're town. If we had a full day tomorrow, I'm sure we could talk about anything. You could even interrogate Michel's slot, but now isn't the time. In saying all that, the spirited defenses of Jack put up by TwoFace and BlackVoid, along with your refusal to compromise makes me think that lynch isn't as viable as I thought anyhow and perhaps that window of opportunity has passed, so I'm jumping back on your wagon...

UNVOTE:
VOTE: GreyICE

L-1 again. Someone should declare intent soon...

I do feel this is really apologetic for voting someone you supposedly think is gonna flip scum

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Well let's see. you, me, I think maria and twoface are town too and know me, could probably vote with as well, that's like 4 votes

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thing is GI you're experienced enough that even though I have a lot of bad feelings about this I'm still not entirely sure, and I know I'll feel like a total idiot if I'm in the end wrong

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Sorry, I don't value my own survival above a scum death.

Obviously I prefer not me to me, but given I've got until Thursday to rally a lynch on someone I think is scum AND I want to talk to Sableheart's replacement even more now, I'm perfectly content with this.

Classic Leo behaviour...

Grey, it's time to let go and help the town by supporting a viable counterwagon.

I don't get talking to someone like this and then voting them to l-1 a bit later

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Greyice I don't think hoopla-IAI are teamed

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VOTE: Victor

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Rally the banners!

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hey maria in case I die, I think jaacks town btw. I think you're doing the same thing you did with jake where you just randomly hate certain people

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I mean I don't really see a difference between this jaack and the one from last game

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aha, hoopla is trying to end the day fast so she can talk in scumchat before V/LA

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Like the VT claim, if GI claimed PR I'd have more of a problem with him not having pushed jaack cw for self-preservation. Also the AtE-ish stuff earlier, GI was talking as though he expected to be lynched so it wouldn't have made quite as much sense if he claimed PR too. If GI is scum, partners took a really big risk leaving him l-1 this long.

Kind of just want a flip now.

Do have a paranoia this could actually be tvt and scum is in {sotty hoopla michel iai}, though statistically vic feels more likely to flip scum than GI and probably isn't as valuable a player anyways even if town, not really that excited about it either. Yeah I'm fencesitting, deal with it. Think BV is delusional town, too far down the speculation/d1 association rabbit hole, even for me. If you're saying "I want to flip x to help me read y", you probably don't know what you're doing.

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Final question before I go to bed

Rask why do you townread me it's a simple question but normally you seemed a lot more paranoid about me

I get the impression directly pressuring you is actually counterproductive, it puts you on guard and self conscious and you perform best under pressure as scum anyways (otoh as town you seem to just get mislynched when pushed).
Think my experimental meta tell here is working anyways. That said your reads look godawful to me if you scumspect bv + jaack. You remember when you assumed jake was scum entirely just for pushing BYF?

[Raskolnikov]

UNVOTE:
Is it possible jaack is town but GI didn't vote him because he didn't want to antagonize someone not on his wagon?
I thought not voting jaack was a good thing because I like jaack. But like vic says, GI's ISO with ctrl-F jack is GI going from scumreading him, to "sell me on it" and then "not wanting to mislynch him" based on entirely hoopla it seems.

@GI Did your jaack read really 180 solely because of hoopla? That implies thinking hoopla is super scum as a prerequisite but your read now is "I'm not willing to lynch her day 1 again just because her day 1 play is beyond bad." so it doesn't entirely follow? Explain this read.

[Raskolnikov]

Greyice how did you go from "hoopla is super scum lynch her when I'm gone" to now thinking "hoopla is a bad player as either alignment and who really knows?".

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Keep in mind the site went down for like 2 days too

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Day one deadline is Thursday November 3, 8 AM PST. 1 day, 20 hours, 25 minutes

There might not be a tomorrow

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Well for starters, iso greyice and victor. I'm going to intent tomorrow whichever is L-1.

[Raskolnikov]

I re-read vic and his points on greyice's read-progression are actually alright.

[Raskolnikov]

LAST MINUTE FLASHWAGON

VOTE: Hoopla

[Raskolnikov]

Actually fuck it

Intent

[Raskolnikov]

If creature is to be believed though, he's going to switch votes to victor (why not already?) and then twoface will hammer. Presumably after waiting for a claim though?

[Raskolnikov]

I don't want these lynches though...

[Raskolnikov]

GI and victor both have good points on one another, greyice's given a lot more overall but I feel super exaggerates everything which comes off a little manipulative. But then there's Hoopla who has absolutely no good points going for her except for the greyice quote where she did the exact same thing as town, mislynching someone without a strong read for the "greater good". Which is still disgusting. Rather have them than either tbh. And then there's goodmorning who hasn't really pushed victor at all over greyice and like straight up ignored everything, avoiding talking about either wagon in favour of other people. Damn that lynch would be good. Sottys at least taking some stance on grey+victor even though he's mostly in the background around this.

[Raskolnikov]

Eh give it another day I guess. Cloud (what happened to this guy?) and sotty both said they're going to post something.

[Raskolnikov]

VOTE: greyice

[Raskolnikov]

Well that's a wrap

Twoface town, creature now town, blackvoid town although feels way too careless with association/speculation
Maria, Jaack, victor probably town but not 100% sure

?? greyice, cloud (what happened to this guy)

scum? iai, sotty
Goodmorning, hoopla probably scum

[Raskolnikov]

VOTE: goodmorning

Didn't push his vic wagon over GI, barely commented on either wagon actually, read very apathetic. Would expect a basic "lynch vic guys" or "either is fine" or just any input.

811 - scumreads IAI a lot, that grey is scary to IaI, presumably a townread onto grey then. At no point puts effort to get vic lynched over grey or defend grey.

Really weird focus onto other/side things in the time instead of the big 1v1 struggle to decide the lynch of the day, especially with greyice going super ham ranting there's no way he could've missed it or thought it wasn't worth commenting on. ISO him and look at the thread-context/timing of each post and see if it makes any sense. I know some people lurked through it or weren't there, but I think showing up and posting about other things on purpose instead of addressing it at all is a lot worse because there isn't that benefit of the doubt.

[Raskolnikov]

I bet Maria is scum this game.~Firebringer
Na Maria isn't towny enough to be scum this game.~Charloux

btw what game is this from?

[Raskolnikov]

Also, I'd buy the scum-slip thing as a lead normally but not with mason claimed (and I think victor's prob town). With mason claim scum aren't going to kill based on reads I think, they're going to try suspected mason partner or suspected PR, assuming the claim itself is too risky to try.

[Raskolnikov]

I haven't read a single one of victor's posts since my ragewall. (Well, one, actually, because it came up on preview. But only that one.) I still think Victor is Scum and I still want him lynched at some point, but I wasn't convincing anyone active and I'm not inclined to waste my breath, particularly not now that he's claimed Mason (which is totally not Scum's favourite FC or anything, nope).

You're saying yesterday you just stopped reading the posts of your scumread at one point and didn't think it was worth it to talk about them anymore?? There were competing wagons extremely close and a lot of people on the fence, you wanted victor lynched and greyice not-lynched, but thought it was a waste of breath to comment, really? He didn't claim mason until the very end of the day so that's not justification for yesterday either.

I don't like you equating tunneling with towniness. Tunneling is a mildly scummy behaviour.

If you care about something you don't ignore it. This is a false dilemma you're creating; the game is not black-and-white where you either say nothing or tunnel.

Also: showing up and talking about something I'd already made up my mind on would have been very boring indeed, and useless. Far better to post thoughts on a wide range of subjects so they can survive my inevitable death.

WTF kind of logic is this, it's better to post my thoughts on a wide range of subjects than to read my scumread's posts which I just stopped doing halfway through the game and comment on either wagon when both were competing.
Even without victor, if I completely ignore that part; you didn't care about greyice there either. YOU SAID YOU THOUGH IAI WAS SCUM AFRAID OF GREYICE. How do you not say ANYTHING about why you think lynching greyice might not be a good idea. TWO OF YOUR SCUMREADS WERE PUSHING HIM AND HE WAS THE VICTOR CW.

[Raskolnikov]

It's not trollweirdscum, he had scum motivation for his actions. He wanted to cast doubt on people for mislynching greyice and definitely used that (IAI), and even though out of his victor read he couldn't "support" the wagon, he wanted greyice gone anyways as an experienced player so he didn't comment. His ISO is pure casting doubt on people with barely any push or commitment behind it, read what his focus was around the mid/end of yesterday.

[Raskolnikov]

The ONLY thing is I haven't yet meta'd but I'll doublecheck that when I get back. If GM has a habit of ignoring his scumread, no longer reading their posts or commenting on them in a close wagon 1v1 to focus on random shit as town that'd be revolting.

[Raskolnikov]

Probably sotty, there's still greyice's point on hoopla being capable of this as town which is annoying.

[Raskolnikov]

I mean I did kind of wanted to see how he'd play around the gm wagon with what he said there.

[Raskolnikov]

Anyways I'm gone this weekend

[Raskolnikov]

Tsk Tsk

[Raskolnikov]

hey creature, what do you think of rask accusing me of not backing up a tr on grey when i did it

in a post he's obviously read

No, you really didn't say much about him. You said a fair bit about what other people said about him, but your comments on greyice alignment were pretty weak and had very little analysis. Talking about him was very far down the list for you, given he was the biggest talking point for a huge part of the day.

Okay so. People still fail to see what I'm getting at, I haven't seen that much focus here. Breakdown.

Earlyday
Midday
Lateday

Earlyday

you voted victor and said your piece there. For the rest of the day you barely mention him beyond answering questions people asked you about why you voted him, but nothing about anything he did since earlygame, the "I stopped reading his posts" you said. Still absurd. The vote itself is somewhat murky to me, that you really hated his rvs and entrance for not talking about/addressing bbt wagon that much. Which is a little ironic considering what you've done since.

Midday

the greyice wagon was in fullswing, and had almost no opposition. Though it begun before greyice arrived, people stayed on after seeing what greyice said. No one would have expected any other wagon or lynch at that point, maybe jaack, but not victor. This is when you commented a little on greyice, and even then really not a lot. You had statements such as "IAI is scum pushing grey and I don't like this" which IMPLIES you would think grey is town but you didn't "back up" the read in the sense that you didn't ever come out and say "I think grey is town" or anything explicit. I have to give the benefit of the doubt and try to look at things from a gm-town perspective, and gm-town saying those things would have townread grey; but your later actions don't line up with that at all either. More accurately they line up with you not having a real read on either greyice or victor which is why you seemed to not care and used the situation to try to setup for d2 instead. To people reading this: ctrl f "grey" in his ISO. Mainly, you cast doubt on people for their approach around the wagon (interestingly enough NOT victor's greyice vote/stance though), which reads to me as expecting the lynch to go through with your hands clean of it and then getting those grey scumread next day (most notably IAI). No like, complaint about your townread being wagoned by victor+iai, not any motion to do a counterwagon beyond "hey if a wagon on iai got going I COULD go on it", but okay, I guess it makes sense because at this point it didn't look like any other wagon would be viable at this point!

Lateday

a viable counterwagon approaches! Victor takes off, it gets to l-2 at one point, and spends several days as a wagon nearly as viable as the greyice one, up until the moment he claimed mason. Keyword, this gamestate lasted several days, 30 october maria and I voted, to 02 november, that's 4. It was not a very fast event that you missed or anything like that. You were there. Here are the posts made while victor, supposed scumread, was a competing wagon of greyice, supposed townread.
884 - "I'm just trying to engage you when it comes to Victor to try and understand where you're coming from" you call super slimey - when you legitimately were tight on details there, stopped talking about victor at a certain point and hadn't said much since, so it's a valid question: wtf? Sotty shade, hoopla shade, then complaining. To be fair, small comment about people joining victor wagon at the end.
890 / 892 - as an aside, I have a theory that gm-scum perceived IAI actions as extra scummy/antitown because as scum she knew the whole time that what IAI was super hard pushing was a mislynch.
984 - I think the gist of this reply to BV is "town and scum can hardpush cases so you should not townread IAI for hardpushing". This is okay - blah maria - THIS one is rich, what gm says to hoopla, "hoopla why are you giving long playstyle lectures instead of campaigning for someone to be the last vote on the grey wagon?". It's literally what gm does by addressing all these random topics INSTEAD OF GREY/VIC and ESPECIALLY "campaigning for someone to be the last vote". How does town-gm say this and at the same time no lightbulb turns on or anything. Gm at no point since early/midday tries to get someone on, not beyond weak statements like hmm it would be nice if it happened I guess. But beyond that, this is somewhat sinister; gm is asking hoopla why she isn't getting more votes onto greyice at the end of the day. This is effort which probably does contribute towards that end. In a way, the gm encouraged grey's wagon a bit with this and an earlier comment about it being "inevitable", probably about the same minuscule amount as she put towards encouraging the victor wagon. And again, she's fully conscious of it as a possibility given this exact comment, just not interested.
1050 - matter of fact response to greyice over some differences. CONTEXT: Deadline is closing, greyice is ranting, near-lynch, and giving his "last reads" in a fury, creature fakehammered. Victor lynch still possible though. Calm, unphased as fuck post from gm given everything. You're talking to your townread who's about to die, even if you already accepted it as "inevitable" long ago despite the VCs, and didn't think it was worth it to even read victor's posts let alone judge them any more, ignoring all that, you're just whatever with grey dying. This is what gets me, as benign as it looks this part sums up gm's play around the 2 wagons; indifferent. As town there's any given number of reactions you'd have, things to be focusing on, anything; from your point of view this day is supposed to have been a failure, a not-good outcome. I think gm is unfettered because she's scum, her play fits her being perfectly fine with that situation as it's a win for scum-her, a positive outcome, and her priority that whole time was already thinking to d2.

NOBODY WAS ON THE FENCE. I'm convinced he's Scum and reading his posts was making the game extremely unfun for me, so yeah, I stopped. I said all I had to say and nobody who wanted Grey lynched bought it, so there was no point wasting my breath repeating myself.

Nope. There were several people, twoface, I think creature, myself (though I leaned grey it wasn't much). Twoface "whatever but I'll hammer if he's l-1" is a pretty obvious sign.
People were making their minds up towards deadline because it was necessary because it was deadline, there was a ton of opportunity in the days coming up to that point, and the wagon getting to l-2 (with twoface "I'll hammer if l-1") proved it.
Statements like this and "well he was my scumread so naturally I stopped reading his posts or commenting on him" are just so over the top ridiculous that I can't see them coming from town.

I don't like you equating tunneling with towniness. Tunneling is a mildly scummy behaviour.

If you care about something you don't ignore it. This is a false dilemma you're creating; the game is not black-and-white where you either say nothing or tunnel.

AGAIN, I'M NOT GOING TO WASTE MY BREATH REPEATING MYSELF.

IF I SAY IT IN CAPS WILL YOU COMPREHEND IT THIS TIME?

TUNNELING IS A SCUMMY BEHAVIOUR! I DON'T LIKE YOU EQUATING TUNNELING WITH TOWNINESS!
~That's not my point though. I have points X Y Z
[ignores X Y Z] WOW, DON'T MAKE ME REPEAT MYSELF!

Sorry but vague statements aren't actually real answers, even passive aggressive ones with caps lock.

The case for gm town
Goodmorning found victor's rvs fairly scummy, voted it and committed to it after victor's next few posts. In early-midgame she then stopped reading his posts because well who cares. Greyice begun to be wagoned and gm pointed out some problems in the people wagoning him, mostly IAI, but really quickly goodmorning saw the greyice lynch as inevitable and thought it best to comment on other things. When there was renewed interest in the victor wagon, goodmorning didn't feel it was a priority then reading his posts either or campaigning for that, despite pointing out hoopla not having campaigned for greyice lynch. "Also: showing up and talking about something I'd already made up my mind on would have been very boring indeed, and useless. Far better to post thoughts on a wide range of subjects so they can survive my inevitable death."[1144]. When the victor wagon was l-2 and a realistic lynch to greyice and greyice was pouring his heart out, goodmorning didn't find it a priority to make some noise about her townread being lynched with no of her scumreads on the wagon; perhaps the vig would shoot IAI as she asked, she maybe thought. Goodmorning calmly addressed side topics and had one post to greyice questioning two of his statements in a matter of fact way, but this was okay because goodmorning had been in this situation all the time and so she's used to it or something and doesn't see the value in defending townreads or campaigning for the last vote or two onto a scumread who is the counterwagon. Actually, similar to not reading victor's posts anymore, goodmorning didn't notice the gamestate, that the wagons were close or that anyone was "on the fence" through incompetence rather than maliciousness, and she just assumed nothing changed from earlier from her "inevitable" early-midday judgement.

Conclusion

: I am disgusted I have to consider this, but stuff like this has happened a few times. But those few times were newer players or hard-lurkers/really weird players. The problem is goodmorning is an experienced player, I've seen her queue for IC a few times I believe, I don't see a veteran player that wouldn't be capable of doing all this. I still have to meta and I'll do so tomorrow, but it'll be very disappointing if this is her townplay. That said even if one's townplay is proven bizarre/scum-ish in all these different ways that doesn't somehow clear her but just makes those specific tells nai. But hopefully the meta analysis would find some substantial tells in that case then.

The case for gm scum
Goodmorning voted victor for rvs because it was easy. Gm keeps the vote and says victor's next posts are bad [but doesn't go into detail] because that's easy as well. Gm answers questions and responds to victor when necessary, but at one point starts ignoring victor out of scumlaziness. With greyice being a wagon gm uses it to cast a ton of shade onto people while not trying to divert it because she wants to leverage the ml into more tomorrow, something you can't do for a wagon you're on. She uses the reasoning that the lynch is probably inevitable anyways, which is reasonable at that specific time but she uses it for the rest of the day even when it's clearly not the case because it's the simple and an easy defense. With greyice and victor both being wagons gm doesn't particularly care which go through, her actions and focus onto minor/side things because she didn't care for any responsibility or attention from that. Out of casting doubt onto people for how they wagoned greyice, she had to assume a stance of appearing somewhat opposed so it made sense, but she didn't really care what outcome came of yesterday. Her mind was already onto what she's do afterwards.

Conclusion:

This fits a lot more, especially considering gm's play around the very late parts of the day. In terms of emotion she just read completely unperturbed by her townread having a meltdown, getting lynched in front of her with her two scumreads on the wagon, it's just so flat and unconcerned. It's not as obvious as it looks like because she's still commenting on things and contributing, so I can see scum-gm thinking it's fine acting this way as the activity is still acceptable, but it's just the focus and priorities don't make sense when you look at them closely. This explanation if nothing else is a lot simpler and so I think more likely.

[Raskolnikov]

If I townread someone I try to avoid their lynch. If I scumread someone I try to lynch them, or at least I don't talk about other things. Or at least, you'd be a little upset, if your townread is being mislynched by to of your scumreads, you'd say more than a little squeak I'd hope. I think basic assumptions about something like this are almost universal, even the newest player will still "care" about his reads a little, even the worst I don't think are just apathetic when they see everything going in a bad direction for them. I'd hope so at least.

[Raskolnikov]

It's not trollweirdscum, he had scum motivation for his actions. He wanted to cast doubt on people for mislynching greyice and definitely used that (IAI), and even though out of his victor read he couldn't "support" the wagon, he wanted greyice gone anyways as an experienced player so he didn't comment. His ISO is pure casting doubt on people with barely any push or commitment behind it, read what his focus was around the mid/end of yesterday.

This is a stretch. If GM wanted Grey gone she would have voted him. There was plenty of time for her to switch and she had been scum read BBT at the start of the game.

A bit of a simplification here.

If you want to cast shade on people for being on a wagon you don't switch to that same wagon yourself. My point was there wasn't much reason for scum-gm to push victor over greyice, as though greyice did townread gm he was still a potentially threatening player to scum overall; my point was there were reasons scum gm would be happy to have that happen as well. Casting doubt and have grey go through was better than the scum-alternative choice for gm, is my point; assuming victor town if he had been lynched instead it wouldn't have been as easy for goodmorning I think, not having it go through means she didn't have to change any stance. Not to mention that outright scumreading/pushing greyice would have potentially put gm in the firing line of him or others and invited people to ask questions there. I can see the point that she maybe could have just kept a minor scumread on greyice with BBT's play as reasoning, but I don't think it's by any means that simple. For starters, other scum on the greyice wagon would incentivise gm to have held this stance as an alternative.

[Raskolnikov]

Tired, will look at sotty and hoopla cases tomorrow. Not as interesting, no smoking guns just thorough could-be-scum mediocrity if I remember. Need to get stances from cloud too.

[Raskolnikov]

@Jaack

- Tell me why your townreading Goodmorning?

In general, I haven't gotten the sense that she's trying to make any friends/doesn't seem to care what people think.

More specifically, I don't think that scum would so strongly doubt your claim, at least at this point. It's the type of thing that draws unnecessary attention.

Yeah but at the same time doubting the claim is easier for gm than coming up with new reads, and she can maintain everything from yesterday without change. And mason claim makes it an easy scumread because you're not expected to do that much about it. I agree it brings attention though I already voted her at that point.

How she does it too "(which is totally not Scum's favourite FC or anything, nope)." is kind of absurd also, and how gm super scumreads victor. Apparently all of it still on the entrance and the semantics argument he had. I don't buy you scumread someone early that much you stop reading them and are still ultra confident, then see mason claim and are still 100%, and go as far as implying mason claim is even likely or common for scum to continue (how does she even get to that conclusion?).

[Raskolnikov]

now that he's claimed Mason (which is totally not Scum's favourite FC or anything, nope).

Are you saying you think Scum don't fakeclaim Mason? Because I have a nice bridge to sell you.

Actually GM back this up. You've seen scum fakeclaim mason more than once? Link it.

[Raskolnikov]

Okay, so update on 1021. I had a group of six not-townreads. We lynched one and Creature has since been very town which leaves just four. The town are Victor, IAI, goodmorning, Cloud, Jaack, and Creature.

This leaves Sotty7, MariaR, Hoopla, and Rask. If the townie among the four of you could please raise your hand, do a backflip, and say "I'm a townie," that would be much appreciated. I'm chucking out the connective tells by the way. Some are tenuous. Just straight up POE would help.

Stuff I need to do when I get back to this game later:
1. Explain the goodmorning townread for Victor who is clearly town and on that wagon.
2. Dig into the ISOs of the foursome to see who's town. I'd prefer the backflip though so if you can, you should do it.

I'm town and I doubt the scumteam is sotty/maria/hoopla through hoopla-maria interaction (read hoop iso), so you're wrong.
More accurately one of your clears is wrong. Why goodmorning town? Also wonder how you clear cloud. It's not that you say you have weak or "probably" townreads either, but how are you so confident as to rule out any possibility especially with the glaring holes in gm's game here? If you found something that convincing I'd really want to know, though more likely something is just wrong since your conclusion isn't realistic.

[Raskolnikov]

I'm seeing some logic from people that goes like this. Scum could do X in that position, but they didn't, and so they're more likely town. Except instead of "more likely" the person just go all the way and says town based on that one thing.
Something like that is weak and more suggestive than definitive if it's only one one small point or event, I'd use it to see if I should look more closely or not, but not be satisfied making a judgement entirely on it. And problem is, for any given scum, you will find one or two things they do differently from standard-scum-decisionmaking (or actually just stylistic). You have to look at every single thing and compare rather than one or two small things. Creature I'm used to clearing people maybe too easily, but now jaack and bv seem to be doing it too.

[Raskolnikov]

Oh wow.

[Raskolnikov]

Can I just assume scum wouldn't bother putting in the time to do that?
Was leaning town on you for gm's shade but wow.

[Raskolnikov]

Hmm, I was worried sotty could be mason but it doesn't look like that's the case anymore. Could join this.

[Raskolnikov]

VOTE: Sotty l-1

I was hoping to get a lot from how she pushed me and dealt with gm, but she gave up pretty fast on me and turned around on gm first thing when the wagon on her got going.

[Raskolnikov]

Also, the mod of this game links the votes in the VCs. It's the easiest thing in the world to ISO the mod and just click the links. I could do the whole damn game in 15 minutes or less.

Most of the votes on Sotty are nrg...

ALL you do is throw shade like this. Make a case on someone and try to convince other people if you have a serious scumread, I want to see a paragraph on why someone is scum, not "SIGH guys everythings in my ISO" and you expect everyone to dive into your quotestripe BS piecing a thousand weak statements together to try to make sense of your stances. You go around casting doubt and when you actually vote someone you do it after saying a bunch of unrelated things and most of what you say is quote random things and say "hmm I don't know about this".

Goodmorning: a how-to
Do x100 [quotes something and goes "hmm" or "uhm"], [rhetorical question], [imply some logic is wrong but not go into detail], [imply someone has a ridiculous view], [throw shade], [talk a bunch about theory]

then vote someone but don't say anything about the vote where you actually voted but expect people to sort of figure it out or something, but all you have is weak statements littered around about them with no substantial justification for why anyone should join you

and then when people want explanation you roll your eyes and sigh and in the most passive aggressive way make it out that it's their problem they can't understand your view progression especially WHILE you do stuff like straight up stop reading someone and maintaining the same push/read on them, and you asked hoopla to campaign for the last grey vote then you do absolutely nothing about victor l-2 and your apparently townread greyice being lynched and having a meltdown, and when people point out the problems with you you just complain about it being a waste of YOUR time and you already said everything so deal with it because it's just SO HARD for you to clarify anything or give a solid stance.

[Raskolnikov]

GM summarise why IAI is scum in a few sentences so someone would understand without reading any of your other posts.

Also I assume your victor scumread is still based on his entrance and the semantic argument he had with hoopla? Haven't heard anything from you on his play around grey or in general for most of the game since that point, just claim speculation now. You said you stopped reading his posts d1 but have you not went back since then?

Out of everything I think I don't have much a problem with your hoopla read but you should explain anyways why that specifically stuck out to you as the worst post instead of expecting people to come to the same conclusion by themselves.

[Raskolnikov]

Strongest stance so far has probably been that the mason claim is fake but it's not even so much as why victor is scum or the claim is fake, but more an argument that the claim doesn't make him town and could "easily come from scum". Which even that just seems dumb, making it out as mason fakeclaim is a super common thing which is straight up not true. If you said "well hmm scum are very crafty perhaps they came up with a bold rare plan?" that would even make SOME sense but "oh come on guys mason fakeclaim is the oldest trick in the book!" is just garbage and doesn't work in any way.

[Raskolnikov]

It's like gm literally doesn't care about getting anyone on the same page as her when we have to have a fucking inquisition to try to get a comprehensive explanation out of her too. As though she automagically expect her scumreads to get lynched, and people to naturally decipher her vague statements and comments made about quotes.

[Raskolnikov]

Why would I read his posts? I'm very sure he's Scum and reading them would only piss me off.

I expect that everyone else is intelligent enough to understand what I mean. That's what the quotes are for. Are you saying you need your hand held through this?

Comments made about quotes are far better than comments off-the-cuff, because comments about quotes have the evidence written right there for everyone to see.

Oh man.

[Raskolnikov]

Okay, your IAI and hoopla views I can see.
Victor read is still ridiculous with what you said about the claim, and how you scumread him so much off of his entrance and one exchange that you would instantly write off mason claim and it doesn't even make you go back and read the majority of posts you ignored or second guess at all.
Still think it's very convenient you didn't speak up on grey and are now using that wagon to justify what you're doing today but I guess I can't prove that.

[Raskolnikov]

Your posts piss me off, but I still read them anyways.

[Raskolnikov]

1270 is reducing my read to one part of it and arguing against that with mafia theory.
Something OTT ridiculous is bad in the sense when I can't see how it could possibly come from town as a legitimate viewpoint, whereas natural town pov should be able to be followed and understood to some degree. Your "scum don't act ridiculous" does not really apply here; your actions are only ridiculous in a town context, but the scum motivation for them are fairly simple (laziness+opportunism). And it's not as if you would know they are ridiculous while doing them, because it took me noticing and analyzing for this to even become a point of public discussion, whereas if it was obvious I wouldn't have been almost alone in my concern.

I don't like shifting to more general theory instead of specifics, every scumtell can be argued against from a theory standpoint. Then with focus there, everyone says "hey it's just a disagreement of theory opinion" and ignore the original points.

[Raskolnikov]

This is a fair enough assessment, but I don't agree with your conclusion that gm is scum. Overall your case feels more like "gm has done some things that could have been done with scum motivation" as opposed to "gm has done actively scummy things." In this particular case, I think its far more likely that gm is stubborn town as opposed to lazy scum.

Things which have more scum motivation to them than town motivation = scummy things.

[Raskolnikov]

GM address my mason point then. How can you say mason fakeclaim is common when I assume you haven't seen it more than once ever? How do you think it would be a thing given what hoopla brought up, which I agree makes sense whatever her align?

[Raskolnikov]

Then why can't I be lazy and opportunistic Town?

"Why can't I just be scummy town?"

[Raskolnikov]

This is legitimately looking like a lost cause though.

Where's sotty anyways?

[Raskolnikov]

If anything you have given up on your GM vote once one one reacted to your big case and are jumping all over me for what exactly?

Yeah, I gave up on gm pretty easily, huh?

[Raskolnikov]

Nope. You're suggesting I could have done more on gm, after walls and walls day after day with it not having gone anywhere. That doesn't work. I was literally the only one left voting at the end.

[Raskolnikov]

And now you're representing what I put into pushing you as the same as the almost nothing you did to push victor.

[Raskolnikov]

I'm sorry, do you feel like you're wasting your breath?

Do you think maybe you'd like to stop pushing your scumread because there's nothing more you can say?

Scum gloating.

[Raskolnikov]

If you're town why are you even that concerned about my read while you're in no current danger of being lynched? Why would you rather gloat to me than do anything to push hoopla? What are you expecting to accomplish right now?

You straight up don't play to town wincon. If you're town that just happens to have the same priorities as scum (surviving, not rocking the boat), look act and think like scum in your position would, but aren't scum, then I don't even know.

[Raskolnikov]

How have you rocked the boat. I don't think doubting mason claim really counts.

[Raskolnikov]

Strong Town: Raskolnikov, BlackVoid, MariaR
Weak Town: Jaack, CloudKicker
Scum: Hoopla, VictorDeAngelo, I Am Innocent, Sotty7

This is all pretty common apart from the victor scumread. IAI isn't as much commonly scumread as he was yesterday, but I don't think it's a controversial position to hold either.

[Raskolnikov]

meh. sotty sounds flat, but iso could fit investigative i guess.

[Raskolnikov]

VOTE: Hoopla

lets just wagon all my nulls please

[Raskolnikov]

dont entirely clear cloud tbh but EMers are a pain in the ass to deal with

[Raskolnikov]

your scumreads are ultra bad and I wouldn't even be surprised if sotty turns out rolecop or something.

[Raskolnikov]

Gm was voting hoopla.

[Raskolnikov]

Though, if sotty is town that doubt won't matter as much if it gets to massclaim, it can be judged there via setup spec. It would be an easier choice if the PR claim was strong, but tracker is what makes this problematic... it's weak enough that another weak role would still be considered balanced without knowledge of scum power (ex: RB). And unlike cop has almost 0 use unless actually success in track. But still.

[Raskolnikov]

Actually, I think jaack is scum now. He was one of my top townreads but my old picks for scum don't as much sense anymore.

VOTE: jaack

[Raskolnikov]

I really liked his entrance and early analysis so I had put him away and stopped looking at him, but he feels fake to me now.

[Raskolnikov]

@mod

V/LA saturday+sunday

[Raskolnikov]

Ill do this when I get home

[Raskolnikov]

Alright finally home.

[Raskolnikov]

Hoopla (4)I Am Innocent , Creature , BlackVoid , Jaack L-2
Jaack (4)Raskolnikov , MariaR , CloudKicker , Hoopla L-2,

Creature (2)Sotty7 , goodmorning ,
Not Voting (1)VictorDeAngelo ,

Sotty slated to join Jaack

[Raskolnikov]

MariaR , CloudKicker , Sotty, GM all potential counterwagoners of hoopla

GM went from voting hoopla to like apathy or something "Kinda feeling indifferent to the Hoopla wagon atm...", real legit.

OTOH hoop wagon is amazing.

[Raskolnikov]

In retrospect voting on a whim before leaving that long was bad although I thought I'd have been back sunday night

[Raskolnikov]

VOTE: Hoopla l-1

Just doublechecked

[Raskolnikov]

You know, I think casing is stupid now. big use of time, doesn't get anything done. Sometimes it's interesting at least, some people feel kind of fascinating, but then it like puts you to a higher standard which gets annoying and people start asking for explanation on everything. Better to be like creature maybe.

[Raskolnikov]

Hey BV, creature come talk to me

[Raskolnikov]

1500 still your thoughts?

[Raskolnikov]

I like the parody of hoopla's naming

[Raskolnikov]

I guess I could see sotty/hoopla/maria. I thought their little interactions plus the "soulread" thing was unlikely but maybe it was reading too much into it.
Though sotty/hoopla/X works too with x being any of GM cloud and maybe jaack also. Jaack/sotty is really interesting given the post-claim pushing, bizarre but one might guess it'd have gone nowhere 95% of times of anyways, though sotty has intent to join jaack wagon so eh.

[Raskolnikov]

Yeah fuck it let's have some flips already.

[Raskolnikov]

Actually sotty doesn't work with maria AND hoopla, too much hard defending. I was right then, has to be one of GM or Jaack somewhere in there.

[Raskolnikov]

Maybe they're scum that decided to townread each other to not look like a scum team.

I'd rule this out even, if you're going to break meta you do it cleanly, I can tell you from experience. You would go further than this then.

[Raskolnikov]

Creature did you look at jaack meta?

[Raskolnikov]

It's only one scum game and it's really hard to find any differences really. I played with him as town too but don't remember what cleared him that game for me.

It's just I don't get the sense he's annoyed when he says he's annoyed, something in the tone, I don't know. Although hoopla switch is kind of alright, basically straight up saying there's nothing definitive but it's better than him. Though can see it as casting doubt on the other voters too. I don't like the overly detached sort.

I want to POE as brave as you/BV do but there's too many murkys.

[Raskolnikov]

This is the kind of game where a vig would've be great.

[Raskolnikov]

I see the unvote but whatever.

I'm a tracker, I tracked Jaack he didn't go anywhere. It was a toss up between him and twoface. I realized twoface more of a me read and a couple of people told me that I was tunneling so I ended up going with Jaack as he was my next best read.

Actually this would be too obvious I think.

[Raskolnikov]

Oh yeah, hoop when you get here you should claim.

[Raskolnikov]

Well shit.

[Raskolnikov]

Everyone's just letting the claim sway them but I buy Victor's claim a whole lot more and Masons + Tracker seems too much investigative power.

Thing is, this isn't quite true.

[Raskolnikov]

That's neither claiming nor not claiming anything though. But masons plus tracker really isn't much. And you can have even more than tracker if you have scum power like RB.

[Raskolnikov]

No, I agree with that part. It's just, I super tunneled KT one game and got everyone to actually lynch him as PR d1 and felt like a dumbass for it.

[Raskolnikov]

Hoopla who are your top scumreads right now

[Raskolnikov]

Ignoring everyone else's reads, ignoring all compromise or whatever all that stuff

[Raskolnikov]

3 of
GM
?Hoop
sotty/jaack
cloud/maria

with sotty not with jaack and cloud not with maria.

which is technically still 6 people total so eh.

Is GM wagon still not viable?

[Raskolnikov]

In an ideal world I'd actually lynch either GM or cloud and let sotty and jaack sort itself out in massclaim, but neither seems viable.

[Raskolnikov]

Me, hoop
maria would have to lynch gm over sotty as per her stances
think that's 3 votes potentially available
sotty would be expected too as she's the alternative
4/6
could maybe scrape together the last 2.

[Raskolnikov]

So here's the thing. I've been trying to look to see if there was anyone who had a problem with sotty in a sort of soft-CC kind of way, and pick up the hint that way. But jaack confirms not visiting anywhere which was from sotty and isn't (jaack-pr would just CC I think), BV probably isn't, and no one else really seems to feel strongly. I don't actually see what I would expect if it's fake and that's the concern. I think it's mostly safe to say?

[Raskolnikov]

There is still a possibility where the above fails but it's a smaller chance though. No one should come out and say anything if it's wrong, obviously.

[Raskolnikov]

I don't think you are fake-claiming. I think you are a mafia tracker who tracked Jaack last night.

why would mafia tracker exist vs masons

[Raskolnikov]

UNVOTE:

[Raskolnikov]

Lol BV she was put to l-1 that changed.

[Raskolnikov]

VOTE: Cloud

This is my pick.

[Raskolnikov]

I don't think being more willing to lynch things when you're the alternative is bad thing

[Raskolnikov]

Idk why you make it out as though not wanting to lynch tracker claim is that bad.

[Raskolnikov]

This game is weird, I hated hoopla but now I feel like I sort of turned into her in all the setup spec wishyness and compromise bs.

[Raskolnikov]

Did you read my point on the pr claim? That's actually the main thing bothering me.

[Raskolnikov]

@Rask, yeah, well your play around Sotty7 and Hoopla pretty heavily points to being partnered with them.

You make this extensive case on goodmorning but switch over to Sotty7 when it seems like her lynch was inevitable. If you really believed in your GM case that much, you would have pushed her harder and looked at the people pushing Sotty7 as a GM counterwagon. But it seems like you really wanted your vote on the Sotty7 wagon for optics.

Then there's the Hoopla wagon. You voted her out of nowhere, then switched to Jaack, then voted her back today after a lynch seems likely. Then suddenly after I said Hoopla's post looked sincere, you were all for finding alternative wagons (but not Sotty7, somewhere else).

Are you like, trying to convince me that I'm scum?

[Raskolnikov]

VOTE: Sotty
Bussing.

[Raskolnikov]

Hey guys deadline is kind of here really soon

[Raskolnikov]

Coincidentally that's also probably the realistic lynchpool at this moment

[Raskolnikov]

That's not really a townbloc fmpov in the sense that none of those are confident reads.

[Raskolnikov]

I've been weighing over going back to hoopla actually.

[Raskolnikov]

First of all, I just want to apologise to the town for my passive, and lets be honest, rubbish play this phase. I fell behind, found myself completely out of touch and simply couldn't muster the fire to counter the growing feeling of apathy. Increasingly, I feel like perhaps mafia isn't the game for me any more, as I'm finding most of the things people say to be a high consistency of NAI noise and there's just too much of it to wade through... I just don't know what is scummy these days in today's meta. This is a pattern that has been occurring more regularly in the last couple of years, and it's simply not fair on the other players in the game. So again, apologies for my bad play.

I have trouble with AtE stuff like this though.

[Raskolnikov]

It feels right in the moment but now I don't know if it's overacting.

[Raskolnikov]

Well yeah you always do it.

[Raskolnikov]

Hey creature why do you clear gm again?

[Raskolnikov]

Different in a very significant way moreso than how people are just different in game to game?

[Raskolnikov]

Thing is absence of previous scumtells isn't nearly as reliable as strong towntells or town-similarities. "Different" is just meh, don't know how it translates to a clear.

[Raskolnikov]

Right now the realistic lynches are probably
Sotty, hoopla, gm, and it looks like me and maybe you.

I think I'd need your support to lynch gm though. If not then it's sotty or hoop.

[Raskolnikov]

We already talked about this?

[Raskolnikov]

Huh.

[Raskolnikov]

We could lynch maria.

[Raskolnikov]

I wanted a flip like a week ago, this is getting really annoying now.

[Raskolnikov]

I wanted a flip like a week ago, this is getting really annoying now.

Selfing there would be helpful rask, i know ure scum and ure ignoring me blatantly

I can't really be bothered to defend myself.

As for you, you were an appealing lynch with GM not possible and sotty claimed as you were straight up coasting/useless here. But people refused, and then right after you actually picked up and started doing things so like ehhhh. And if your town it's not interesting really, another BV is fun and all but it gets exhausting.

[Raskolnikov]

GM's a potential sotty partner tbh.

[Raskolnikov]

Hell, I'll selfvote if people promise to sheep my GM case tomorrow.

[Raskolnikov]

VOTE: goodmorning

Fuck it, 1v1. Compromise overrated, people just hate you for you being spineless when you try to be practical.

[Raskolnikov]

Given general mentality and how GM's been impossible to lynch I likely lose this, but there's something to be said about going down with your beliefs.

[Raskolnikov]

Well, 99% of the time people seem to ignore dead reads anyways, but some people won't I know. Even BV seemed to give GI reads a good look despite his meltdown.

[Raskolnikov]

Rask you're acting just like 1820 can you just take a step back ffs -_-

Can't be bothered. I could have lurked this day or just stuck on GM vanity style like a stubborn mule, but I go out of my way to reach out and try to get agreement and compromise and people just hate me for it.

[Raskolnikov]

GM and sotty are probably scum anyways, but BV and cloud are demotivating, and creature too has some super permanent paranoia of me from that game I didn't even win. When I did sit down and put hours into casing not a single thing happened.

[Raskolnikov]

How do you think I feel when everyone's telling me my reads are wrong and I feel so strong on it

Still think your reads are horrendous if you're town.

[Raskolnikov]

@Rask, if you really think GM is a Sotty7 buddy, lynch Sotty7 first and get her tomorrow. No point bailing on a scumlynch for that. If you really, really want to die, you could always get lynched tomorrow too! Why the rush?

But I scumread GM more, sotty is a tracker claim, and also GM finally flipping should vindicate me and get people to stop annoying me, whereas even if sotty flips scum your top theory is literally that I'm scum bussing her.

[Raskolnikov]

GM 1v1 is super appealing because it's not fun walking into a day with a target on your back. Why not resolve this early?

[Raskolnikov]

Though it is weird I'm phased about this and sotty's been leading lynch most of the game, as PR, and doesn't seem a fraction as concerned.

[Raskolnikov]

@mod VC please?