Mini Normal 1843 - Endgame

[VictorDeAngelo]

VOTE: I am innocent

Too eager too appear innocent methinks.

[VictorDeAngelo]

UNVOTE:

I'm with BlackVoid. BBT a good vote.

VOTE: BlueBloodedToffee

I also think MariaR could be a good vote as well.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Also I have two strong townreads already.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Care to share with the class friend~

If I wanted to do that I would have stuck with teaching.

[VictorDeAngelo]

If I told you I haven't lost as scum yet would that make you worried?

Not really. Have you ever actually drawn scum?

[VictorDeAngelo]

As an aside, I don't understand the purpose of Victor and Maria declining to share reads.

What do you think of the reads I have shared?

If I told you I haven't lost as scum yet would that make you worried?

Not really. Have you ever actually drawn scum?

4 times.

Maybe a 5th~

That's actually quite impressive. Also, you've just raised bar needed to get a townread from me. Congrats.

[VictorDeAngelo]

What do you think of the reads I have shared?

I'll get back to you when you declare some reads punctuated with something other than variations of

"...is a good vote"

.

Hoopla

would also be a good vote

is now a lean scum read.

[VictorDeAngelo]

What do you think of the reads I have shared?

I'll get back to you when you declare some reads punctuated with something other than variations of

"...is a good vote"

.

Hoopla

would also be a good vote

is now a lean scum read.

Why would hoopla be a lean scum when what she said is accurate? You haven't really given reads. You claim to have 2 town reads but won't share those and you said 2 people are good votes.

Hoopla is fussing over semantics rather than asking why I would vote either player. That's not a townie move.

LOL woops btw i just townsliped that i cannot be mafia with i am innocent or i am a pro at forum mafia in my first game

I'm not buying it.
VOTE: Cloudkicker

[VictorDeAngelo]

Hoopla is fussing over semantics rather than asking why I would vote either player. That's not a townie move.

Nah not buying it.

You claimed you gave reads which you didn't. You asked hoopla's opinion on your reads.

Hoopla's response while humorous, was appropriate because you didn't give any

Saying you'd vote people arent really reads

Even if we will accept that neither you nor Hoopla is capable of working that I might just find the people I'm willing to vote scummy, then at a bear minimum I'd still expect a town player to be at least somewhat interested in why I'm willing to vote a player.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Case in point. I've voted 2 people this game without any reason. Why didn't you ask me why?

If I use your own logic I could assume you aren't doing what you think a townie should do

Your votes were:

1) rvs

2) sheeping onto a wagon to get the day going

I didn't ask because I didn't any reason to expect a useful answer.

However, I notice you haven't been voting anyone since 107, why not?

[VictorDeAngelo]

Also, Hoopla wasn't the only player not to ask me about my votes. Why do you think I singled her out instead of other people?

[VictorDeAngelo]

Also, Hoopla wasn't the only player not to ask me about my votes. Why do you think I singled her out instead of other people?

Because you just told me you did.

That makes no sense.

Case in point. I've voted 2 people this game without any reason. Why didn't you ask me why?

If I use your own logic I could assume you aren't doing what you think a townie should do

Your votes were:

1) rvs

2) sheeping onto a wagon to get the day going

I didn't ask because I didn't any reason to expect a useful answer.

However, I notice you haven't been voting anyone since 107, why not?

Btw my first vote wasn't rvs because I coin flipped and it was tails which meant no rvs

Do I rvs?

heads = yes
tails = no

tails

See?

Meh, early vote is early. The first vote in the game is nearly never for a good reason and I'm not going to spend time worrying about your reasons.

What

does

worry me is you didn't answer the bolded question. Tut, tut, tut.

2.hey victor, congratz on not buying a literal townslip, how townie you are to discredit exactly a town calling a non-team slip on him self with a random dude. i will hardfos anyone who believe i am mafia with iaminnocent ->I dont care if you disagree, its exactly what happened

If it makes you feel better I'm not accusing you of being scum with iaminnocent. I am simply accusing you of being scum desperate to look townie.

[VictorDeAngelo]

That makes no sense.

You said you were scum reading her for not asking you why you had your reads so really your questions to me are the ones that don't make sense.

No, I mean your 201 doesn't make sense. Did you not understand my post or do you need to rewrite it or something.

What does worry me is you didn't answer the bolded question. Tut, tut, tut.

If that really worries you, mafia isn't the game for you.

Blah, blah, blah... just answer the question already.

UNVOTE:

I'm with BlackVoid. BBT a good vote.

VOTE: BlueBloodedToffee

I also think MariaR could be a good vote as well.

I know you've since moved, but could you go into why this was. A few sentences/brief summary is fine.

Two things; first, the starting a wagon on you, then deciding you were town and getting you to find scum felt very staged. Then, he shifted to sotty because Jack made a case. Feels like scum looking to appear active but then getting townies to do the dirty work.

What I mean is, does it look like you're trying hard because you're a tryhard or because you're scum who's having a slightly more difficult time of it than they expected? (Obviously this is a rhetorical question.)

Neither. I feel it's productive to talk about what I'm thinking and push the game forward. Are you against analyzing wagons in general, or do you just feel mine wasn't useful?

I'm going to stick with BBT. Why Victor over him?

That's not at all the sort of thing I mean.

Because Victor's being much worse. Toffee is at least trying to do

something

.

How the hell do you think BBT is doing more in this game than me?

Hoopla is fussing over semantics rather than asking why I would vote either player. That's not a townie move.

No, she isn't. Hoopla is saying, "you've said you scumread a couple people but haven't actually explained why and that's absolute shit."

But she didn't say that. She said I wasn't sharing reads. Not sharing reads isn't the same as not explaining them. If she had actually said something like what you quoted I wouldn't be scum reading her.

Which is the equivalent of insisting you explain yourself.

Then why didn't she just ask like Maria did?

Which means

you're

the one playing semantic games.

Your going to need a lot better than this if your going to try and get me lynched.

I find it funny that on a site where people are sort of role playing, they complain about people role playing while role playing. You aren't the first to complain about the coin flip and I'm completely baffled why people have an issue with it.

This is kinda OOG, but I don't think roleplaying == mafia. Just saying.

I'm being vague because I don't want the people who I sr to change there play or act iffy so for now I'm waiting.

I am no longer willing to vote Maria. I think I've gone all the way over to lean town on her.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Because Victor's being much worse. Toffee is at least trying to do

something

.

Victors pushing things though? Saying he did less than BBT in this game is kind of a stretch.

The part I do agree with is I want him to explain his reads.

saying 'this guy is a good vote' is not pushing anything;saying 'come bandwagon this guy,' while both useless and dull, is.

1

Also, Victor has yet to explain shit. Toffee at least has said he wants to bandwagon people for pressure and

spent some time on his Raskolnikov townread.

2

1

Sure it is. First I was actually voting BBT, so while I didn't literally come out and say come bandwagon this guy I was putting pressure on him (and I wasn't the only vote on him at the time). Similarly saying I willing to vote another player is clearly an indication of my read, and gives other players a chance to see if they want to either question why I'll vote them, convince me to shift my vote, etc, etc. Saying let's have a bandwagon is simply saying let's pile votes without worrying about it. Given how early it was it doesn't even look like BBT is looking for anything particularly scummy from said player, but simply wants to get some wagons going to look like he's doing something without actually doing anything.

2

Where did the underlined happen?

Hoopla is fussing over semantics rather than asking why I would vote either player. That's not a townie move.

No, she isn't. Hoopla is saying, "you've said you scumread a couple people but haven't actually explained why and that's absolute shit."

But she didn't say that. She said I wasn't sharing reads. Not sharing reads isn't the same as not explaining them. If she had actually said something like what you quoted I wouldn't be scum reading her.

She said you weren't sharing reads "

punctuated with something other than variations of "...is a good vote".

"

WHAT ELSE IS THAT SUPPOSED TO MEAN?????

Again, the statement was;

As an aside, I don't understand the purpose of Victor and Maria declining to share reads.

However much you kick and scream, that's complaining I didn't share reads, not that I didn't explain them.

Which is the equivalent of insisting you explain yourself.

Then why didn't she just ask like Maria did?

I don't know, but given that she shouldn't have HAD to ask in the first place, I don't really care.

That's not an excuse. If your town you can't expect players to hand you their alignment on a plate. If she was town, I'd expect to be trying to get more information out of me. She didn't. She attacked and left, even after I gave her an opportunity to engage with me in 175. That's not townie.

Was about to vote victor actually but his response makes me think town, and goodmorning's push on him has been weird.

Go look at his entrance again. He comes in near the end of page two, throws a completely random vote, doesn't engage with the game in any way. Try and tell me that's in any way Town.

I think that probably answers your later question.

It answers one question I have.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Goodmorning

Which is the equivalent of insisting you explain yourself.

Then why didn't she just ask like Maria did?

Even when Maria asked for you to "share your reads with the class" you declined to share, so lets not pretend that you haven't had an opportunity to explain any reads.

1

You've been prompted several times by different players in different ways and you haven't volunteered any explanations beyond the superficial. Giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming you're not just being facetious, I will politely ask you for some further explanation in a direct and easy to understand way. Hopefully my request for explanation has been presented in the correct format for you to reply:

1) Why did you think BlueBloodedToffee was a good vote?
2) Who are your two strong town reads? Why are they strong town reads?
3) Why did you originally think Maria might be a good vote, and why do you think she is town now?
4) Why are you suspicious of me?

1

- Nope, that question was relating to outing the two townreads I'm refusing to go into at this time not the scumreads.

1) Actually I have explained this at this point. You need to keep up.
2) I already said I'm not sharing these reads yet, for reasons I'm not going to explain either.
3) Similarly to BBT, I felt she townread rask too quickly. However I think she's town now because even after myself and her have taken heat for lack of explanation she is continuing to play that way rather than trying to adapt for towncred.
4) Again, this has been discussed in the thread. You went for attack over questioning. I'd expect a post like 261 to be the sort of thing you've have done naturally if you were town.

I come from a site where its very very hard to townslip on purpose and this was genuine. Its not alignement indicative to point said slip, you can then judge for yourself if you believe it is one or not Mostly scum will disagree, ppl who will 100% buy it are scum pocketing you and the rest is yolo. Seriously most of the users on EM are disgustingly incompetent at mafia so i point out the slips. But i agree with the wifom.. i would never wifom like that as scum
Also, its just a non-team slip and its an obvious one

I'm not going to comment on how difficult it is to townslip on purpose on a different site because it's not relevant here. However, you can't simply argue it's not alignment indicative because your taking heat. Scum have more motivation to point to "townslips" than town. Town have less motivation to look town, and absolutely no reason to try and convince people they are not scum with a player (since they are not scum with anyone).

[VictorDeAngelo]

4) Again, this has been discussed in the thread. You went for attack over questioning. I'd expect a post like 261 to be the sort of thing you've have done naturally if you were town.

I didn't realise you were this obtuse and required such explicit, direct questioning in order to pry information from.

Nice attempt to deflect but your doing it again. You're equating not sharing everything with not sharing anything.

And yes, this may be a novel concept, but asking direct questioning is one such way of getting information. It's not the only way, but it's not like you're trying anything else.

Which is why I'm questioning your towniness.

Although I still don't know the purpose of saying you have two strong town reads and then not sharing who they are, let alone reasons why. Why bother mentioning them at all?

You'll have to wait and see.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Nice attempt to deflect but your doing it again. You're equating not sharing everything with not sharing anything.

Why did you bother asking me what I thought of your reads, when the extent of your reads were

"X might be a good vote"

? Surely you must have known there was nothing there for me to comment on.

To attempt to engage you. There were any number of useful things you could have said:

"I think BBT is town and don't agree."
"I think Maria is a good vote as well"
"Why is BBT a good vote?"
"How scummy do you think BBT is?"
"Why did choose BBT over Maria?"

As just a few examples. It's not that you couldn't comment but you didn't.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Sigh, let's try and fix this:

1

Sure it is. First I was actually voting BBT, so while I didn't literally come out and say come bandwagon this guy I was putting pressure on him (and I wasn't the only vote on him at the time). Similarly saying I willing to vote another player is clearly an indication of my read, and gives other players a chance to see if they want to either question why I'll vote them, convince me to shift my vote, etc, etc. Saying let's have a bandwagon is simply saying let's pile votes without worrying about it. Given how early it was it doesn't even look like BBT is looking for anything particularly scummy from said player, but simply wants to get some wagons going to look like he's doing something without actually doing anything.

1. actions =/= words. it's a proactive vs reactive thing. also i really don't want to get caught up defending toffee because he's also been awful thus far but less awful than you, much like cancer is less awful to us somehow when it happens to adults rather than children.

First, don't compare to child cancer. That's just disgusting, and frankly I thought you were a better person than that.

Second, are actually suggestion that words are better than actions? How so? Actions are what move the game forward. It's completely unrelated to being either proactive or reactive, and I have no clue why you would bring that up.

Also, Victor has yet to explain shit. Toffee at least has said he wants to bandwagon people for pressure and

spent some time on his Raskolnikov townread.

2

2

Where did the underlined happen?

2. context of 97 makes it pretty clear imo.

Well 97 said:

UNVOTE: Rask

Cool, Rask is town. Rask, who do you think is most likely to be scum from your wagon?

So, I'd love to know the context which leads to the conclusion that he spent some time on his townread.

Hoopla is fussing over semantics rather than asking why I would vote either player. That's not a townie move.

No, she isn't. Hoopla is saying, "you've said you scumread a couple people but haven't actually explained why and that's absolute shit."

But she didn't say that. She said I wasn't sharing reads. Not sharing reads isn't the same as not explaining them. If she had actually said something like what you quoted I wouldn't be scum reading her.

She said you weren't sharing reads "

punctuated with something other than variations of "...is a good vote".

"

WHAT ELSE IS THAT SUPPOSED TO MEAN?????

Again, the statement was;

As an aside, I don't understand the purpose of Victor and Maria declining to share reads.

However much you kick and scream, that's complaining I didn't share reads, not that I didn't explain them.

i

quoted hoopla's actual post

. 177.

KNOW THE FACTS

And post 177 came after 170.

Which is the equivalent of insisting you explain yourself.

Then why didn't she just ask like Maria did?

I don't know, but given that she shouldn't have HAD to ask in the first place, I don't really care.

That's not an excuse. If your town you can't expect players to hand you their alignment on a plate. If she was town, I'd expect to be trying to get more information out of me. She didn't. She attacked and left, even after I gave her an opportunity to engage with me in 175. That's not townie.

if YOU'RE town you shouldn't be deliberately trying to make it harder for everyone else. bad play, very antitown.

So once again, rather than stick the topic your turning to a different point of attack. Have you been watching a certain debate and thinking "Damn, that orange skinned dude knows what he's doing".

And for the record, your logic only works if you assume everyone reading the thread is town (which obviously is not the case).

p-edit: OR YOU COULD JUST FUCKING EXPLAIN YOURSELF IN THE FIRST PLACE INSTEAD OF ACTING LIKE A SHIT FFS

If you don't change your tone GM, I'm just going to blacklist you and replace out. Last warning!

[VictorDeAngelo]

To attempt to engage you. There were any number of useful things you could have said:

"I think BBT is town and don't agree."
"I think Maria is a good vote as well"
"Why is BBT a good vote?"
"How scummy do you think BBT is?"
"Why did choose BBT over Maria?"

As just a few examples. It's not that you couldn't comment but you didn't.

And at that point, I told you I'd comment when you give something to comment on (your cue here is to give me something to comment on)

And then next TwoFace took over and reiterated the same thing, to which you started complaining about semantics, again, instead of providing something for us to comment on. It really shouldn't have got to that point, though. How about instead of throwing it back at me with

"what do you think about my two nothing reads and my two mystery town reads who are top secret fyi, ps. they're really strong reads"

you actually just said the reason for your reads? Do you literally need someone to hold your hand and ask you directly why you thought they were good votes? If your reasons are any good, just volunteer the information.

At this point, we are just going to be disagreeing over how to play the game, and I can't be bothered to waste my time further on you.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Victor, look what you've done to goodmorning. You've really upset her, and she's such a good kid. I think you should apologise to myself and goodmorning, and TwoFace while you're at it.

Bullshit, as far as I'm concerned, she owes me an apology.

[VictorDeAngelo]

1

Sure it is. First I was actually voting BBT, so while I didn't literally come out and say come bandwagon this guy I was putting pressure on him (and I wasn't the only vote on him at the time). Similarly saying I willing to vote another player is clearly an indication of my read, and gives other players a chance to see if they want to either question why I'll vote them, convince me to shift my vote, etc, etc. Saying let's have a bandwagon is simply saying let's pile votes without worrying about it. Given how early it was it doesn't even look like BBT is looking for anything particularly scummy from said player, but simply wants to get some wagons going to look like he's doing something without actually doing anything.

1. actions =/= words. it's a proactive vs reactive thing. also i really don't want to get caught up defending toffee because he's also been awful thus far but less awful than you, much like cancer is less awful to us somehow when it happens to adults rather than children.

First, don't compare to child cancer. That's just disgusting, and frankly I thought you were a better person than that.
Second, are actually suggestion that words are better than actions? How so? Actions are what move the game forward. It's completely unrelated to being either proactive or reactive, and I have no clue why you would bring that up.

1. It got my meaning across, no? I would probably have chosen a different analogy had I been able to think of one but things are very dark indeed at 4am.

Then don't post at 4.a.m.

2. No, I'm suggesting that actions, and words that call for actions from others, are more efficacious than words, and words that only imply actions from oneself.

So why do you feel that my actions are worth less than BBT words then?

Also, Victor has yet to explain shit. Toffee at least has said he wants to bandwagon people for pressure and

spent some time on his Raskolnikov townread.

2

2

Where did the underlined happen?

2. context of 97 makes it pretty clear imo.

Well 97 said:

UNVOTE: Rask

Cool, Rask is town. Rask, who do you think is most likely to be scum from your wagon?

So, I'd love to know the context which leads to the conclusion that he spent some time on his townread.

The context of 97 is the time in which it was posted, the previous posts from Raskolnikov, etc.

And, again, I'm not going much farther than this. I hate being roped into defending my scumreads.

Since I'm also scumreading BBT do you really think I want you to defend him.

Nope, I'm looking for you to justify your own statements. If 224 is genuine you'd be able to back it up right? So how about instead of a dictionary definition of what context means (which I could get off google) you explain how you reached your conclusions (which I can't seem to find any results off google for).

Again, the statement was;

As an aside, I don't understand the purpose of Victor and Maria declining to share reads.

However much you kick and scream, that's complaining I didn't share reads, not that I didn't explain them.

i

quoted hoopla's actual post

. 177.

KNOW THE FACTS

And post 177 came after 170.

DOES THAT MAKE IT LIKE IT DIDN'T HAPPEN???????? ONE SEVENTY-SEVEN WAS THE POST I WAS REFERRING TO THE WHOLE TIME; I HAVE NOW EXPLAINED THIS TO YOU AND YOUR RESPONSE IS THAT

IT WAS SEVEN POSTS LATER?????????????

I didn't say 177 didn't happen. I said 170 is when Hoopla accused me of not sharing reads. I'm not denying the existence of other posts by her where she doesn't attack me for not having reads, I'm simply saying that they are not the post I was referring to. But that post and others came after I pointed out that I had actually made some reads, to which her only response was to quibble over the terminology I used.

And for the record, your logic only works if you assume everyone reading the thread is town (which obviously is not the case).

WEIRDLY, THE VAST MAJORITY ARE AS THIS IS THE NATURE OF THE GAME WHAT THE FUCK

Your either not reading my posts properly, not understanding them (and I don't believe a girl who uses efficacious in her posts can't distinguish between everyone and majority) or at this point you simply don't care. Two thirds of those options are scummy, and the one third that isn't is IMO the least likely.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Victor placed a random vote, without actually contributing anything useful. I've seen townies do that, but it's disappointing. Victor, why did post #35 contain nothing but a random vote? Why you didn't give an opinion on Hoopla's playstyle at the time?

Because it was page 2 and nothing in the game seemed worth commenting on.

Traditional, the portion of the game your looking at is the least profitable in my opinion. Scum have the easiest time hiding in the opening pages of the game where everything is random. You've mentioned townreads in the post but no real scumreads yet. Do you still feel comfortable with your goodmorning vote?

Let's see what the coin says about voting victor now

Heads

VOTE: victor

Not sure if I've said it before but I'm buying the coin flipping gimmick. This vote should have come two pages ago and I don't like how it only comes after you've taken pressure for not voting.

I don't know whats wrong with me I'm reading but my head is just buzzing all the words are getting scrambled and I prob can't remember what was said on the last page
Someone ask me some questions please

What do you think about Jack?

[VictorDeAngelo]

Not sure if I've said it before but I'm buying the coin flipping gimmick.

Didnt like that line, then i went over your iso and oh boy the walls of texts im totally not planning to hard-read into and ure voting gm whos town so theres that.

Yeah, there was meant to be a not there.

Not sure if I've said it before but I'm

not

buying the coin flipping gimmick.

Hopefully the post makes sense now.

[VictorDeAngelo]

When I read that over it sounds like babbling do I need to rephase that

No, it's fine. I understand the point about the wagon. What was the disagreement you had again (I'm too lazy to look for it)?

[VictorDeAngelo]

Yea much more, that line really standed out when i was rereading. Can you also explain me the gm read in short

Despite all our interaction she still is justifying her vote mostly around my first post being rvs. I don't see how random voting on page 2 is scummy at all. However, even my opening post was something she would have pushed early on it's not something you'd be pushing at this point. Goodmorning should either have a better case on me or be backing off.

Also, I think she slipped up when she spoke of BBT spent time on his rask townread as there's no way she reach that conclusion as town which is why she's ignored 320 and not responded to any of my points/questions.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Jack why do you think talking about dice is risky for scum btw I don't get it

Using dice tags in rvs is the kind of thing that tends to get people on your case, essentially for the reasons michel gave when he voted hoopla. It's sort of like self voting in rvs in that it's liable to get people talking about you early.

I don't think it's a pro-town play, but it rather on the nose for scum.

This

Oh ok. I don't find this particularly scummy. Sure, you disagree but why does feel like it's scum play rather than a difference of opinion?

[VictorDeAngelo]

Victor placed a random vote, without actually contributing anything useful. I've seen townies do that, but it's disappointing. Victor, why did post #35 contain nothing but a random vote? Why you didn't give an opinion on Hoopla's playstyle at the time?

Because it was page 2 and nothing in the game seemed worth commenting on.

Traditional, the portion of the game your looking at is the least profitable in my opinion. Scum have the easiest time hiding in the opening pages of the game where everything is random. You've mentioned townreads in the post but no real scumreads yet. Do you still feel comfortable with your goodmorning vote?

The reason I'm asking the question, as should be clear from the context, is that there was something in the game that was worth commenting on: Hoopla's playstyle at the time. It's exactly the lack of comment on this that I want explained. "There was nothing worth commenting on" therefore is not a good explanation.

And yes, I'm still happy with my goodmorning vote (as I would have unvoted otherwise). The analysis of the very early game is still the best thing I have to base my vote on.

I think I explained it. I don't believe anything Hoopla did was worth commenting on, because ultimately it's the kind of fluff posting that could come from town or scum. You may feel there's something significant about the use of dice tags but I do not. T

[VictorDeAngelo]

Not sure if I've said it before but I'm buying the coin flipping gimmick. This vote should have come two pages ago and I don't like how it only comes after you've taken pressure for not voting.

That would require me to have actually have been pressured which I wasn't.

Both Sotty and myself had called you out for not voting.

Also, I think she slipped up when she spoke of BBT spent time on his rask townread as there's no way she reach that conclusion as town which is why she's ignored 320 and not responded to any of my points/questions.

I'd say this would be the strongest point on GM. The RVS thing seems like you both have different beliefs on what can and cannot be found in the opening stage of the game. I don't find that necessary scummy.

True, but the point is less about the initial vote and more how it's persisted despite everything else that's happening.

I'm with BlackVoid. BBT a good vote.

VOTE: BlueBloodedToffee

I also think MariaR could be a good vote as well.

Reasons for your vote on me and why would Maria be a good vote?

Both answered in 293.

I'm not buying it.
VOTE: Cloudkicker

Why did the Cloud scum read overtake your scum read on Maria/myself?

Reread 192.

All in all, I'm underwhelmed by this catch up by BBT. Most of what he asked was answered ITT and it feels like he's just trying to look busy. I would still be happy to vote him today.

[VictorDeAngelo]

prodge

[VictorDeAngelo]

With that said, it looks like BBT is play for today. Hopefully we can L-1 a wagon and get a claim to assess before getting too close to the deadline.

I agree with this. My biggest pet peeve in mafia is the amount of D1's that wait until the last 48 hours to compromise, leaving little time to analyse a claim, and often reducing the town to chaotic scrambling if that wagon dissipates.

Totally agree with this.

Alright, as much as I want to tear 588 apart, GM can wait.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: BlueBloodedToffee

[VictorDeAngelo]

IAIs ISO is a teenage wasteland. I'll be caught up soon! Uh huh. Obviously it's bad. Not enough to motivate me to lynch day 1, but an acceptable vig target.

What use is there in vigging a guy with virtually zero content/interactions?

The only other players I have reasonable scum-inklings about are twoface and cloudkicker, and neither of those two players have much momentum towards a wagon, so I don't know why I would move my vote to a less useful place.

Now regarding myself, I think it's notable that there has been a lot of interest in me as a scum candidate in the past couple of pages, but no one is willing to cast the first vote. Of course now that I say that someone will probably cheekily quote this section and vote me.

So you don't want to move your own vote because you don't think it would be useful off of either of the major wagons.
But you also question people won't move their votes off of a major wagon onto you.
Somewhat contradictory isn't it?

Can you guys unvote and let the guy re read without the pressure of votes thank you.

Why?

PEdit:

Wtf is it with the strong victor townreads o-o

Strong Victor townreads are because Victor is town. duh

pedit: IT'S RUDE YRSYRS5Y5ESY5

Not really

[VictorDeAngelo]

What's your proposal to deal with a slot that won't produce anything Victor? Lynch them? Hope they're town? Nah. IAI should be vigged tonight if we have one. Won't waste a lynch on him if have a vig shot.

Wait, let the slot produce some sort of content first.
If IAI is vigged N1 and flips town, what information do we get going forward? Compare that to if he lives to Day 2 when even if he doesn't produce content, people will have to take a stance on lynching him or not (which will provide some info after he dies).

Hey, you started off RVSing him~

Yes, because that's really relevent.

Also IAIs first content is to setup speculate. Poorly, since mafia vigs are explicitly non-normal.

We could just lynch him actually.

But then we couldn't lynch you toDay.

[VictorDeAngelo]

So you don't want to move your own vote because you don't think it would be useful off of either of the major wagons.
But you also question people won't move their votes off of a major wagon onto you.
Somewhat contradictory isn't it?

Not really at all contradictory. I don't want to move my vote because other options I kind of like (Cloud, TwoFace, maybe you) don't appear to have much in traction at the moment.

Do you have any plans to change that?

As for me, there was a groundswell of interest in a wagon on me in the couple of pages immediately prior. A single vote and a hard push could have easily produced a wagon. It didn't, or at least hasn't happened yet.

Are you not concerned about Maria's vote on you?

[VictorDeAngelo]

Hoopla, Sotty: Why Victor? Here we go.

As a veteran irascible asshole, let me assure you of two things. First, you don't necessarily change because you're scum. Second, being townread is simply a tool to lynch scum. If people town read you they're more willing to listen to you, if they're more willing to listen to you, they're more willing to vote with you. Certainly we none of us think Victor is ambivalent about who gets lynched, yes?

So early on Victor was getting significant pressure.

1

A feud with GoodMorning, several votes, people pushing him, etc. He had to defend himself.

2

Then it tapered off. What did Victor do? He tapered off. It's not like any of his comments were particularly insightful or probing earlier, but after the town read? He didn't try and sell a single person on voting GoodMorning. He just was happy to leave his vote there until the "oh gee, I guess I better join the wagon under duress".

3

1

It's a stretch to label a few early votes as significant pressure.

2

If you actually read the interactions with GM you'd see she never had anything more than a rvs post against me, hence why I never had to defend against her.

3

Again, reread that section of the game. Pressure was mounting on GM but I never stopped scumreading your slot. I shifted to your wagon but I've said I'd still back a GM lynch. It's not like I can lynch everyone I want day 1.

If you want to talk since then, he's been the most passionate about how we shouldn't shoot IAI. That's funny. He's been on site since 2013, he's very well aware that many extremely strong players have the philosophy that vigs should default to shooting useless lurkers precisely because they have no content and its hard to read them. This is not a controversial opinion or one that is rarely voiced, it's very mainstream, and IAI is the prime candidate of this town under that. The "at least people would have to take a stance" thing is super weird. Does he think that scum wouldn't bus IAI? It's not like he's playing well at all. It just seems an attempt to preserve IAI's life without actually doing much that would commit him one way or the other. It's a very weird stance to take.

Passionate? Off like one or two posts. Again, you're reaching here. IAI is a bad vig because his death tells us nothing. If you think he's scum (and you seem to be suggesting it quite heavily here) then push his wagon.
Also, if you had reread thoroughly you'd see he was vla for a largish chunk of the game, so the lack of content arguments are null.

More interestingly he didn't even argue the scum should shoot Goodmorning. He just wanted it to be not-IAI, he didn't even think of Goodmorning getting shot. That's very, very odd for someone who is so strongly reading her as scum. He's strongly reading her, but he isn't really willing to push her and doesn't even think of having a vig shoot her? That's downright off.

Well obviously I don't think scum will shoot my scumread :p

Anyway, you were advocating an IAI shot which I think is a bad idea. I'm not having a lengthy discussion on the pros and cons of different vig targets. It should be obvious from my posting that I would like to see GM vigged/lynched.

Interestingly two thirds of this came after GreyIce replaced in so really the extent of the scumread in 602 is he doesn't think I've pushed GM enough.

[VictorDeAngelo]

p-edit @ victor:

Victor's entrance was scummier than anyone else's (including IAI's, while we're going there); it came near the bottom of p2, when there was plenty to comment on, yet he dropped an RV and left. Currently, he's playing the semantic game he accuses others of playing, misrepping Hoopla, refusing to provide much useful content, and attempting to infuriate me.

(in response to sotty asking for a very condensed version)

mmmmk.

If you're going to stop ignoring me, then why not respond to my questions in 320 about BBT?

[VictorDeAngelo]

ftr genuinely trying to infuriate someone is a huge scumtell imo

because it's a really anti-town action but you can pretend it's not your fault

No one's attempting to infuriate you, your just getting yourself angry because, well, to be honest I don't get what your so angry about. Could it be because I got your number so early?

[VictorDeAngelo]

I'd like to nominate the post above me as the single most fake post in this thread.

So you don't want to respond to anything else I said?

That's like If I said

I'm really sad today guys

Person B: Are you sad because I sr you and you're mafia!

Funnily enough, it wouldn't shock me if you found this exact exchange in a past game of mine.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Sigh,

I say your stretching so you say I'm stretching in response, I say you should read so you say I should read in response... etc

I'm disappointed Grey, I at least thought you'd try to make this interesting.

[VictorDeAngelo]

You're a broken record. Stretching! Read more! Stretching! I mean I'm proud you found a thesaurus and discovered reaching was a synonym for stretching but your response sucked. And now you're trying to taunt me.

Oh hang on, what you weren't saying that my comments were a stretch, but you were simply demonstrated reading comprehension. Did you really think I was asking you to summarise what I said?

I seriously wanted sableheart to chat because I don't like some of his stuff, but you're uncomfortable with where you stand. It's predictable, the only things you've really cared about is other people's town reads (getting your own scum reads pushed at all is a distant second) but if you're not going to sit patiently, then I'll cram a wagon down your throat and talk to sableheart too. It'll be multitasking.

Where did you get the impression I was uncomfortable with where I stand? Ditto on the getting townreads statement. If you really think you're going to push a Victor wagon, you might want to check the thread to see if there's anything to justify your statements.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Can you post a list of your reads from town --> scum? Maybe even with scores if you're feeling friendly?

Just from the catchup, for instance ur unvote/contradiction from an earlier stance where you don't like to wait until deadline to get claims would have been a negative point:

Town: Cloud, Hoopla, BlackVoid, Victor, Sotty
Null/Town Lean: Rask, TwoFace, Michel, Maria
Null Scum: GoodMorning
Scum: GreyIce, Jaack

3 of the town reads dropped strong town tells (including yourself), both scum read dropped a early game scum tells in addition to poor posts. Good Morning to did not have one positive post either. BBT was the only of my scum reads to have a good post, and it was for his early vote on the Rask wagon since I saw something there early on. Of course Rask has since been more townie, so that one post doesn't offset the number of bad posts/scum tell that slot dropped.

I saw victor and black in the town slot and stopped reading

So you disagree on two reads and discount the whole list?
What do you think about the fact that his two strongest scumreads are GreyIce and Jack who you also want to lynch today?

[VictorDeAngelo]

So you disagree on two reads and discount the whole list?
What do you think about the fact that his two strongest scumreads are GreyIce and Jack who you also want to lynch today?

What type of question is THIS I think that's great? gr8 he's still very wrong.
I feel like you only commented on this because you were 1 of the 2 reads in question.[/quote]

Then why dismiss the list so abruptly?

[VictorDeAngelo]

EBWODP

So you disagree on two reads and discount the whole list?
What do you think about the fact that his two strongest scumreads are GreyIce and Jack who you also want to lynch today?

What type of question is THIS I think that's great? gr8 he's still very wrong.
I feel like you only commented on this because you were 1 of the 2 reads in question.

Then why dismiss the list so abruptly?

[VictorDeAngelo]

EBWODP

So you disagree on two reads and discount the whole list?
What do you think about the fact that his two strongest scumreads are GreyIce and Jack who you also want to lynch today?

What type of question is THIS I think that's great? gr8 he's still very wrong.
I feel like you only commented on this because you were 1 of the 2 reads in question.

Then why dismiss the list so abruptly?

Avoiding the throw back huh? Smooth.

What throwback?

It was just a jab towards him and nothing more I felt like making the comment so I did.

So your saying it was just a comment for the sake of making a comment, or am I misinterpreting this?

[VictorDeAngelo]

Yes I just felt like making a comment because I was laughing that he somehow had a tr on you and black so I felt like making the comment.

I was more interested in the fact that you were more concerned that you disagreed with the two weaker scumreads (me and Black) and yet you don't seem to mention on the two stronger scumreads of Grey/Jaack.
And 766 sounds like you discredit the whole list based on two differences rather than a joke. If you were laughing I don't get why. IaI is not the only player townreading either Black or myself, so why is so noteworthy?

And you mean the comment I made towards you you don't think is worth commenting on? Okay.

The 'jab towards him' was a comment made towards me. You've lost me.

[VictorDeAngelo]

He's not noteworthy I'm just not gonna say lol to everyone who tr's u2 I've asked why ppl tr you and they don't answer I just felt like making the comment
I can't tell if you're curious or trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill the 2nd part I am not gonna answer because you should be able to figure out what i meant yourself.

Ok, I don't want to turn this into a multi page thing so I'll stop bothering you with this.

FWIW I like IaI's list. I am townreading everyone he has at town and scumreading the players he has at scum and null scum. Which is why I didn't like 766. If you wanted to get an explanation you might have been better asking as if it was my list and I had read your comment, I wouldn't have thought to explain any of my reads to you.

[VictorDeAngelo]

I just can't manage quote tags this morning.

I'm too lazy to sort out 781, assuming it's obvious what I meant to quote (i.e. just Maria's stuff).

[VictorDeAngelo]

Grey, if you value your own survival, you'd be voting Jack about here.

Sorry, I don't value my own survival above a scum death.

Obviously I prefer not me to me, but given I've got until Thursday to rally a lynch on someone I think is scum AND I want to talk to Sableheart's replacement even more now, I'm perfectly content with this.

This sounds noble and all but did you forget you were scumreading Jaack?

And at this point why the urgency in talking to Sableheart's replacement? Obviously his replacement can't answer whatever concerns with Michel's play you had. Nor is anyone actively looking to lynch that slot today. So really what's the point?

[VictorDeAngelo]

Weird that Victor steps into the middle of an attempted discussion that's only tangentially related to him.

Weird that I'm the subject and even I don't know what your talking about.

@Sotty: I disagree, as is probably obvious. I'm not really looking to have an argument about it and wouldn't have even bothered posting any of that had I not been directly asked. I've been pretty averse to pushing weakish wagons on players who are probably better than me since NY169.

Okay. Lets try this then. You're the only vote on Victor, what would you say would be the most compelling reason that he is scum. The entrance into the game point you made I don't agree with. He's moved on from interacting with Hoopla. What about his other stances makes him scum? Did you think his BBT/Grey vote was scummy?

A. I am not the only vote on Victor.
B. I am not interested in helping you look like you're doing more than you are.
C. Does the fact that the misrep was in the past make it not a misrep?
D. I am clearly not going to be able to convince you on this and I really don't want to try.
E. Is there something about the vote that I

should

find particularly scummy? And why ask me about that in particular?

This is worthy of a lynch in and of itself. If goodmorning was trully scumreading me, it would make no sense to refuse to engage Sotty to try and get her onside. Instead she would surely by reiterating the case and ramming it down people's throats if given the oppurtunity. Instead she's just pointlessly arguing to no end.

I give up. Nobody I want lynched is going to get lynched. Hopefully I'll have something more substantial tomorrow

What kind of crap is this???

Four days out, and none of your lynches are going easy so you're going to do what exactly? Sit back for the rest of the day and just let another lynch happen.

I had moved you out of my scumpile but your going straight back in for this post!

[VictorDeAngelo]

I have an unexpected respite from work so let's see if I can catch up.

Now Hoopla, I'm noticing a contradiction that's irking me a little. Unlike

some

people around here I don't think every contradiction is automatically 100% scummy, but I do think this one is obnoxious enough that I want to directly ask you about it.

I'm not afraid of a hammer. Like I said earlier, I think Grey has earnt his keep. The value he provides if he's town overrides the chance of that slot being scum. When I unvoted and moved onto Jack I sensed a real chance of a rapid wagon happening there, but maybe I misread the situation? Either way, I will compromise soon if nobody wants to lynch Jack and I'll get back on the Grey wagon.

Also, four days from deadline? Seriously? There's like mafia games where a day phase is four days long. You could organize a lynch in four hours.

No matter how good you think your reasons are on Victor and IAI, you don't have the cred to call the shots and rally the town. I'm throwing you an olive branch here; a chance of survival by getting a Jack wagon well and truly going, with an opportunity to improve your image and influence in the game tomorrow. He's your third suspect and it's D1 -- how much better do you

really

think the odds of Victor or IAI being scum over Jack are?

What's my fucking value to the town if you're not willing to listen to me? It's not like I claimed some fucking awesome power role or something (you have no idea what my role is), you're basing this entirely on the strength of my dayplay. So... how strong is my dayplay if you won't give me any goddamn credit.

This isn’t a contradiction. Your basically equating “has value” with “mafia god”. You want people to listen to you, you should be building a case. A proper one, not that weakass one in 693. You should be interacting with me not ignoring me.
And why should you get credit here. There’s been no flip, you’ve caught no scum, so what are we giving you credit for exactly?

Finally, I'm not comfortable with the inevitability of a Jaack lynch. Regardless of alignment, Sotty7 and GreyICE have people strongly townreading them or refusing to lynch them. Jaack doesn't have that. He's been fairly low-key, and no one has been willing to bat for him particularly hard. So when deadline comes, people from both camps will likely "compromise" on him when they can't get their first choice lynch. I think he's town and I want to open up that discussion before it's too late.

I'm willing to compromise onto IAI since you townread Victor for some reason (seriously man... why).

See, I'm willing to work with you because you try to talk to me while Hoopla threatens me like a terrorist. There's a lesson there for someone (hint: HOOPLA)

Threaterned like a terrorist?
The woman who unvoted you and talked about a potential alternate is threatening you like a terrorist.
How are there people in this game not wanting to lynch GreyICE?

Sigh and now we get the lazy Victor wagon.

I have a question for everyone on the Grey wagon

Why do you think no other wagons have really picked up until now because he's scum and getting bussed? Or it's just hard to vote him and scum are content with losing him?
I don't know the answer and I want to

Why wait to ask this question the moment a viable counterwagon to Grey emerges?
And there’s so many possible answers beyond bussing. Maybe multiple scum are on a wagon already. Maybe there’s only two scum. Maybe he’s traitor or third party and there’s no to help him etc etc.

Hoopla joining the gray wagon is terrible. Anyone town reading her. Weds their head examined. It's funny she stalls a good wagon and then casts shade on the people voting that same person

When did she stall a good wagon? Or cast shade? Why is it you don’t bother quoting stuff and then when I look through player’s ISOs I can’t find anything to back up what your saying?

Goodmorning’s refusal to interact with me again is just weaksauce. She needs to be lynched as well.

Assuming I’m right about GreyICE being scum it’s likely all three scum are on my wagon at this point. I think gm is one because she has been scum for a long time. Not sure on the other. I was wondering about Rask until 963 but now I kind think he is town. I think TwoFace is depressingly town because he hasn’t jumped on which would have been the sensible thing to do if he was aligned with GreyICE (in the unlikely event Grey is town though TwoFace is more than likely scum). So it would probably be one of Jaack or Maria. Grey's reluctance to push the Jaack wagon despite the fact he was scumreading him suggests that it's likely to him.

[VictorDeAngelo]

When did she stall a good wagon? Or cast shade? Why is it you don’t bother quoting stuff and then when I look through player’s ISOs I can’t find anything to back up what your saying?

You obviously aren't trying very hard. Here let me show you

Here is where I say which wagon she stalled. It's actually not my first comment cause I've said a couple of times that bbt was the counter to sotty. Twice sotty was at 4 votes and attention got diverted to bbt for some reason

The only other wagon that had potential was sotty which stalled many times. Hoopla even helped stall it.

Grey is town

Funny that accuse me of not reading and yet you obviously not reading/comprehending/thinking about what I'm posting.

I'm asking where Hoopla stalled the Sotty wagon. Obviously I'm not asking that as a random question. I've read you say that Hoopla stalled the wagon. I don't need you to requote you saying that Hoopla stalled it. What I'm saying is that it didn't happen. Hoopla is not the reason Sotty isn't getting lynched.

Here is her casting shade

It does a little bit. If Grey is town, then I'd expect scum to be in the lurkers/people sitting on stale wagons content with the game state and not willing to put their neck on the line to further the game and put themselves in the limelight. Raskol, goodmorning, TwoFace spring to mind.

2 of the 3 people are voting the wagon she stalled earlier.

All of these were on the same page man. The same fucking page!!!

Specuating about where scum might be is a long way from casting shade. Particularly since this was in response to Maria's question about why an alternative to the Grey wagon wasn't going off.

Sorry when im repeating things I've said previously (stalled wagons) or responding to a recent post (casting shade) I have this unrealistic expectation that people will actually read the posts being made and not lie about not seeing them when they are right there in their face. I'm sorry I made that mistake. I won't assume you have the ability to read posts being made even though it's sort of a requirement of the game.

Funny you accuse me of stupidity (not being able to read), laziness (not trying to read) and lying (apparently seeing the posts, reading them but then pretending not to).

[VictorDeAngelo]

If victor gets to l-1 I'll hammer. If he's town he doesn't read well and is a liability. If he's scum well I can actually see a sotty/hoopla/victor team and yes I'm a little crazy

In fact, why aren't you voting me already.

Votecount 1.13

GreyICE (6)

Sotty7 , MichelSableheart , VictorDeAngelo , I Am Innocent , Hoopla , BlackVoid L-1,

MichelSableheart (1)

CloudKicker

VictorDeAngelo (5)

goodmorning , GreyICE , MariaR , Raskolnikov , Jaack L-2,

Sotty7 (1)

TwoFace ,

Not Voting (1)

CloudKicker ,

Day one deadline is Thursday November 3, 8 AM PST. (expired on 2016-11-03 08:00:00)

With 13 alive, it's 7 to lynch!

[/size]

No way you didn't see this on the previous page.

No way you still believe a Sotty wagon is happening. You have said repeatedly you want me more than GreyICE. Why are you so keen to wait for me to get to L-1 exactly?

[VictorDeAngelo]

Okay, back, starting my thoughts. Buuuut since this is sticking out at me

Hey Victor:

Assuming I’m right about GreyICE being scum it’s likely all three scum are on my wagon at this point. I think gm is one because she has been scum for a long time. Not sure on the other. I was wondering about Rask until 963 but now I kind think he is town. I think TwoFace is depressingly town because he hasn’t jumped on which would have been the sensible thing to do if he was aligned with GreyICE (in the unlikely event Grey is town though TwoFace is more than likely scum). So it would probably be one of Jaack or Maria. Grey's reluctance to push the Jaack wagon despite the fact he was scumreading him suggests that it's likely to him.

What happened to the all three scum on your wagon since I'm scum? Or have you realized that's not going to fly tomorrow with my townflip?

I'm not allowed to reevaluate? TwoFace making it clear he's only prepared to vote me if I get to L-1 is made me rethink.

[VictorDeAngelo]

If you flip town I'll reevaluate as well.

But I don't think you'll flip town. On the other hand I know I'm town so I suspect the scum at this point to be all about a Victor lynch in order to save their buddy.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Actually fuck it

Intent

I'm town mason.

You can either out another mason to confirm or we can just lynch GreyICE like we should have done two days ago and be done with it.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Whatever it's been a long day and frankly I don't care anymore.

[VictorDeAngelo]

FUCKING SERIOUSLY

IS IT FOR ONCE TOO MUCH TO ASK THAT FUCKING MASONS PLAY LIKE TOWN

AND NOT FUCKING LIVE IN A QUICKTOPIC

YOU USELESS SACK OF SHIT.

WHY THE FUCK CANT YOU PLAY LIKE A FUCKING TOWNIE INSTEAD OF LIVING IN ANOTHER THREAD AND POSTING IN THIS ONE RELUCTANTLY. ITS SCUM AS FUCK. GO FUCK YOURSELF AND THE HORSE YOU RODE IN ON.

Vote: IAI

When I get lynched today you fucking sack of shit it is 100% on you and your dumbass mason QT

lol

[VictorDeAngelo]

If you really can't take being lynched you probably shouldn't be playing mafia Grey.

[VictorDeAngelo]

If you really can't take being lynched you probably shouldn't be playing mafia Grey.

And now you're taunting me. Is there any town motive for this you piece of shit?

It's not a taunt, it's life advice. No one should get this angry over a game. It's just not normal.

[VictorDeAngelo]

I haven't read a single one of victor's posts since my ragewall. (Well, one, actually, because it came up on preview. But only that one.) I still think Victor is Scum and I still want him lynched at some point, but I wasn't convincing anyone active and I'm not inclined to waste my breath, particularly not now that he's claimed Mason (which is totally not Scum's favourite FC or anything, nope).

I don't like you equating tunneling with towniness. Tunneling is a mildly scummy behaviour. Also: showing up and talking about something I'd already made up my mind on would have been very boring indeed, and useless. Far better to post thoughts on a wide range of subjects so they can survive my inevitable death.

That said:

Vote: IAI

Since gm apparently isn't going to read this, everyone else might as well answer these questions for themselves.

Why would town stop reading any players posts? That should be a lynchable offence itself!

And why didn't she think there wasn't the possibility of convincing anyone active? First there were plenty of players (TwoFace, Maria, GreyICE) who clearly willing to listen to a Victor scumcase. As for others, how would she know if she didn't engage them? Or even they were townreading me, how exactly could she hope to win the game without attempting to change their minds. She was supposedly fairly confident I was scum but not interesting in trying to convince other because it wasn't easy? The defeatist, there was no lynching Victor attitude just doesn't just doesn't make sense for town.

What does make sense is that gm was scum, happy to sit on an easy vote throughout the day thinking I wouldn't get lynched and she could take the high road once GreyICE flipped town.

VOTE: goodmorning

[VictorDeAngelo]

We really need to lynch Goodmorning today.

I haven't read a single one of victor's posts since my ragewall. (Well, one, actually, because it came up on preview. But only that one.) I still think Victor is Scum and I still want him lynched at some point, but I wasn't convincing anyone active and I'm not inclined to waste my breath, particularly not now that he's claimed Mason (which is totally not Scum's favourite FC or anything, nope).

You're saying yesterday you just stopped reading the posts of your scumread at one point and didn't think it was worth it to talk about them anymore?? There were competing wagons extremely close and a lot of people on the fence, you wanted victor lynched and greyice not-lynched, but thought it was a waste of breath to comment, really? He didn't claim mason until the very end of the day so that's not justification for yesterday either.

NOBODY WAS ON THE FENCE. I'm convinced he's Scum and reading his posts was making the game extremely unfun for me, so yeah, I stopped. I said all I had to say and nobody who wanted Grey lynched bought it, so there was no point wasting my breath repeating myself.

First not true that nobody was on the fence about me. Just because some players had strong townreads it doesn't mean no one would have listened. Even if gm believed everyone on the Grey wagon was set in their ways, a majority of players weren't on the Grey wagon. None of them were worth trying to convince to move onto her Vic wagon?

Also: showing up and talking about something I'd already made up my mind on would have been very boring indeed, and useless. Far better to post thoughts on a wide range of subjects so they can survive my inevitable death.

WTF kind of logic is this, it's better to post my thoughts on a wide range of subjects than to read my scumread's posts which I just stopped doing halfway through the game and comment on either wagon when both were competing.
Even without victor, if I completely ignore that part; you didn't care about greyice there either. YOU SAID YOU THOUGH IAI WAS SCUM AFRAID OF GREYICE. How do you not say ANYTHING about why you think lynching greyice might not be a good idea. TWO OF YOUR SCUMREADS WERE PUSHING HIM AND HE WAS THE VICTOR CW.

From last to first:
4. Counterwagons are a bullshit reason to change your reads in any way.
3. Scum can bus.

These both sound like she supported the GreyICE lynch regardless of how little sense GreyICE and me would have made as buddies. Then in the next she will show how she supposedly said something about why she thought lynching GreyICE was not a good idea:

2.

Grey replaced in and is reading a similar game to the game I'm reading.

He could have picked that path as Scum, because disagreeing with most people on many reads can make people think you're Town for effort-related reasons, but I think if he was Scum doing that he'd have picked someone better regarded than me to have similar reads to.

You, on the other hand, came in and magically had almost the same reads as almost everyone. That's lazy/busy Scum tactic if I ever saw it. Moreover, you made a push on the Grey wagon that was, as I pointed out in the above, exceedingly flexible in nature.

So yes, I think you're Scum and the push is desperation to keep that wagon going because Grey is scary to you.

(Kept the 2nd-3rd paragraphs there to show you THIS IS A POST YOU REFERENCED WTF

A cautious sentence embedded in an argument against IaI was never going to dissuade people from voting GreyICE. Nor do I believe it was ever the intent.

1. There is literally no reason to read someone's posts if they are being rude and you are unshakably convinced they're Scum.

I was never rude to you. Considering some of the things you've said I've been restrained.
And you never had a reason to unshakable believe I was scum. If you did you wouldn't have struggled to build a case.

I want to see who's familiar with how GM plays as town and scum.

I'm not sure anyone here is.
You have that one game in which I was ICScum, which isn't a good indicator of the rest of my play.
Victor has one game as well, in which he was Scum and I played the worst ICTown game of my life.
& that's it.

FWIW while I'm pretty sure I've played with gm before I can't recall the game she's referring to.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Ah those games. I can remember her replacing into 1546 now, but she did lurked it out and ended up being scum.

Can't remember anything about 1479, at all but since I was scum and she was IC, so I guess that's the one she's referring to.

[VictorDeAngelo]

there were plenty of players (TwoFace, Maria, GreyICE) who clearly willing to listen to a Victor scumcase.

Vc to be posted eventually, but it was a lynch.

Votecount 1.Final

GreyICE (7)

Sotty7 , VictorDeAngelo , I Am Innocent , Hoopla , BlackVoid , Creature , Raskolnikov LYNCH!,

VictorDeAngelo (4)

goodmorning ,

GreyICE , MariaR

, Jaack ,

Sotty7 (1)

TwoFace ,

Not Voting (1)

CloudKicker ,

Day one deadline is Thursday November 3, 8 AM PST. (expired on 2016-11-03 08:00:00)

With 13 alive, it's 7 to lynch!

[/size]

If victor gets to l-1 I'll hammer.

If he's town he doesn't read well and is a liability. If he's scum well I can actually see a sotty/hoopla/victor team and yes I'm a little crazy

ok.jpg

Man, I'm glad I stopped reading your posts if they're all like that.

p-edit: thx creature

Doesn't this just prove my point? Maria and Grey were on my wagon and TwoFace is clearly not townreading me based on the post you quoted (and plenty more in his ISO if you look there).

[VictorDeAngelo]

I haven't read a single one of victor's posts since my ragewall. (Well, one, actually, because it came up on preview. But only that one.) I still think Victor is Scum and I still want him lynched at some point, but I wasn't convincing anyone active and I'm not inclined to waste my breath, particularly not now that he's claimed Mason (which is totally not Scum's favourite FC or anything, nope).

I don't like you equating tunneling with towniness. Tunneling is a mildly scummy behaviour. Also: showing up and talking about something I'd already made up my mind on would have been very boring indeed, and useless. Far better to post thoughts on a wide range of subjects so they can survive my inevitable death.

That said:

Vote: IAI

Since gm apparently isn't going to read this, everyone else might as well answer these questions for themselves.

Why would town stop reading any players posts? That should be a lynchable offence itself!

And why didn't she think there wasn't the possibility of convincing anyone active? First there were plenty of players (TwoFace, Maria, GreyICE) who clearly willing to listen to a Victor scumcase. As for others, how would she know if she didn't engage them? Or even they were townreading me, how exactly could she hope to win the game without attempting to change their minds. She was supposedly fairly confident I was scum but not interesting in trying to convince other because it wasn't easy? The defeatist, there was no lynching Victor attitude just doesn't just doesn't make sense for town.

What does make sense is that gm was scum, happy to sit on an easy vote throughout the day thinking I wouldn't get lynched and she could take the high road once GreyICE flipped town.

VOTE: goodmorning

Thats a garbage line and logic, i havent read everything and im town. Also the inconsistency of pushing on gm for thay and not everyone, me included

Are you intentionally not reading posts? If so I'll happy push your lynch as well.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Just much of this game haven't you read Cloud?

[VictorDeAngelo]

there were plenty of players (TwoFace, Maria, GreyICE) who clearly willing to listen to a Victor scumcase.

Vc to be posted eventually, but it was a lynch.

Votecount 1.Final

GreyICE (7)

Sotty7 , VictorDeAngelo , I Am Innocent , Hoopla , BlackVoid , Creature , Raskolnikov LYNCH!,

VictorDeAngelo (4)

goodmorning ,

GreyICE , MariaR

, Jaack ,

Sotty7 (1)

TwoFace ,

Not Voting (1)

CloudKicker ,

Day one deadline is Thursday November 3, 8 AM PST. (expired on 2016-11-03 08:00:00)

With 13 alive, it's 7 to lynch!

[/size]

If victor gets to l-1 I'll hammer.

If he's town he doesn't read well and is a liability. If he's scum well I can actually see a sotty/hoopla/victor team and yes I'm a little crazy

ok.jpg

Man, I'm glad I stopped reading your posts if they're all like that.

p-edit: thx creature

Doesn't this just prove my point? Maria and Grey were on my wagon and TwoFace is clearly not townreading me based on the post you quoted (and plenty more in his ISO if you look there).

I didn't need to convince them because

they were already convinced

.

Did you really think I was talking about you trying to convince players at the end of the day who were already on my wagon? You seriously expect me to believe that.

Sure after GreyICE, Maria etc had voted me, there's no need to convince them. But there was a long period before that yesterday where my wagon wasn't happening and you were doing nothing to change that. It's that period where you should have been trying to make the wagon happen. I felt it was pretty clear it was that period and not the end of day I was referring to.

Let's actually remind ourselves how we got here. You started ignoring my posts after your ragewall (316). At that point I had two votes on me, yourself and TwoFace. You claimed in 1114 that the reason for your apathy yesterday was because you didn't think you could convince people to vote Victor. Yet the fact people eventually voted me shows that simply isn't true. Furthermore you couldn't have known how people were going to vote without at least trying to engage with them. There's plenty of things you could have done to help move my lynch forward (providing a compelling case for example).

Which brings me back to the rest of 1177 which you didn't bother responding to. You are supposedly so certain I'm scum you can stop bothering to read my posts. Yet when needing to make a case it comes down to the fact that you didn't think my opening post was that great and apparently I'm infuriating when I do horrible things like question you and try to get you to explain yourself.

[VictorDeAngelo]

So youre sring him for not properly pushing on you, aka his scumread?

That's one reason I'm scumreading her yes.

@grey: i mean, i'm not pushing them very hard. (aka i have been totally ignoring victor for a shitload of pages)

i am not attempting to hide this fact from anyone if that's what you're implying victor

This is a classic scum strawman. I've accused goodmorning of plenty of scummy behaviour, and yet rather than respond to the actual allegations she's just attempting to rewrite the case.

victor's been weirdly active D2 as opposed to D1, someone should draw a conclusion from that so i don't have to

And now she's accusing me of inactivity Day 1. In true scum fashion she won't come out and say it's scummy. Instead she'll cast shade, sit back and hope a townie takes the mantle again so she doesn't have to get her hands dirty. And if no one does, this attack will no doubt get forgotten going forward by gm.

She needs to be lynched asap!

[VictorDeAngelo]

VOTE: goodmorning

What do you think about her IAI vote?

The vote on IAI is the same sort of lazy vote parking as she did with me.

She talked a little bit about IAI yesterday (mostly sheeping Grey's calls for a vigging him) but never really levied any particularly good reason for him being scum.

Today she votes him in 1144, giving no reasons for the vote (yet in the same post she spent two paragraphs defending herself). Let's see what she's said about IAI in her other posts today:

Spoiler: Goodmorning's Day 2 push on IAmInnocent

1174 - Doesn't mention IAI.
1194 - When asked about her Sotty scumread mentions her IAI scumread is stronger but doesn't say anything else.
1195 - Doesn't mention IAI.
1197 - Doesn't mention IAI.
1198 - Doesn't mention IAI.
1200 - Doesn't mention IAI.
1204 - Doesn't mention IAI.
1206 - Doesn't mention IAI.
1207 - Doesn't mention IAI.
1209 - Doesn't mention IAI.
1216 - Doesn't mention IAI.
1221 - Doesn't mention IAI.
1239 - Doesn't mention IAI.
1245 - Doesn't mention IAI.
1247 - Doesn't mention IAI.
1256 - Doesn't mention IAI.

So she's all alone on the IAI wagon and yet once again she's doing nothing. No case, no attempt to interact with IAI, no attempt to move anyone else onto the wagon. It's classic lazy scum voting.

What do you think of the IAI vote Sotty?

[VictorDeAngelo]

@Jaack

- Tell me why your townreading Goodmorning?

I want to look thru some vote counts but at this time I'm fine with sotty hoopla and GM votes.

Which one are most fine with? And why aren't you voting that person?

@Cloudkicker

- What are your thoughts on the emerging Sotty wagon?

[VictorDeAngelo]

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Creature

[VictorDeAngelo]

prodge

I'll read up over the weekend

[VictorDeAngelo]

UNVOTE:

I am really behind in this game. Can someone on the relevent wagons point me towards the best case towards Jaack/Hoopla? I'll shift my vote to one of them today.