Mini Normal 1843 - Endgame

[Jaack]

Can you post a list of your reads from town --> scum? Maybe even with scores if you're feeling friendly?

Just from the catchup, for instance ur unvote/contradiction from an earlier stance where you don't like to wait until deadline to get claims would have been a negative point:

Town: Cloud, Hoopla, BlackVoid, Victor, Sotty
Null/Town Lean: Rask, TwoFace, Michel, Maria
Null Scum: GoodMorning
Scum: GreyIce, Jaack

3 of the town reads dropped strong town tells (including yourself), both scum read dropped a early game scum tells in addition to poor posts. Good Morning to did not have one positive post either. BBT was the only of my scum reads to have a good post, and it was for his early vote on the Rask wagon since I saw something there early on. Of course Rask has since been more townie, so that one post doesn't offset the number of bad posts/scum tell that slot dropped.

I'm sorry, but how at all is this a useful reads list? And then bragging about it in 780? You literally have no justification for anything. The only two actual references to something that's happened are something scummy you thought hoopla did (while you are townreading that slot) and something towny you though BBT did (you are scumreading that slot).

Now you can say you have this magical list and you aren't going to share it because "they'll stop dropping those scumtells" but that makes your accusations 100% useless. Especially considering you go against that in the quoted post - you do give an example of something scummy that Hoopla did. So give evidence or stop parading around as some town paragon. Even if GI and I are scum (which I'm not, and I don't think GI is either) and we would purposely stop dropping these scumtells, it doesn't mean they don't already exist in thread as evidence.

This feels contradictory. Her case on BBT was a good part meta, but after Rask sort of argues against that (209), sotty wants to simultaneously drop discussion of BBT's meta while also getting Rask to vote?

I asked Rask's opionon of my BBT meta which was from awhile back. She said I was wrong I said okay, let me wait for BBT to post more and we can take it from there. Nothing contradictory.

The contradiction is that you push rask to vote BBT immediately after saying you'll wait and allow BBT to post more.

But in that interim, she does very little to push on that TwoFace vote.

Okay that's just blatantly untrue. I push Twoface hard and we have an extensive back and forth that could have easily became a death tunnel. I am interacting and questioning twoface who starts off answering me and then just really falls back to insulting and taking pot shots at me. I pushed his voting behavior, I asked him for several reads a couple of pages back that he still hasn't provided. What would you consider "pushing a scum read"? Vote them then disappear for several pages and never interacting or questioning them again like you have been doing with me?

Upon further examination, I will concede this. I didn't originally feel as if your discussions with TwoFace were particularly productive and it felt more like you were biding your time until BBT came back and you could focus on him again. On a second read, I don't think you're pushes on TwoFace are as intense as your pushes on BBT, which does give me pause, but it's the smoking gun I considered it before.

As for the shade on me, I get it. I screwed up by being lazy and not participating for a good section of this game. If I get lynched for it that's on me. But that fact that you keep bringing up every time I try and do something now is counterproductive. Well, at least it's detrimental to me trying to contribute. Just because I had a bad start to the game doesn't mean I can't have something to say now.

[GreyICE]

Grey, if you value your own survival, you'd be voting Jack about here.

Hey Sotty, a bunch small number of people are attacking me viciously. What does this remind you of?

[GreyICE]

oh ffs quote bug.

Hey Sotty, answer the above question.

[TwoFace]

Why do you think Jack is town exactly?

He's sharing my reads for the most point. his sotty push is good. Scum wagons especially early have the most resistance and I don't see more resistance to a wagon than the one sotty has had. Sotty's contribution is bland which makes the resistance to his wagon odd. Makes me think somebody who's town read hard is scum with him. Hence why I'm thinking it's you. You abandoned your vote on sotty for bad reasons which means your vote was for show. He got to 4 and you decided to hop over to an easy target.

[GreyICE]

I'm curious, but not four days from a deadline. That slot is no chance of being lynched. Cut your losses and help the town by improving the chance of someone else being lynched. Of course, if you're scum, go ahead and do whatever you want...

I'm pretty sure my preferred order would be Victor>IAI>Jack.

Also, four days from deadline? Seriously? There's like mafia games where a day phase is four days long. You could organize a lynch in four hours.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Grey, if you value your own survival, you'd be voting Jack about here.

Sorry, I don't value my own survival above a scum death.

Obviously I prefer not me to me, but given I've got until Thursday to rally a lynch on someone I think is scum AND I want to talk to Sableheart's replacement even more now, I'm perfectly content with this.

This sounds noble and all but did you forget you were scumreading Jaack?

And at this point why the urgency in talking to Sableheart's replacement? Obviously his replacement can't answer whatever concerns with Michel's play you had. Nor is anyone actively looking to lynch that slot today. So really what's the point?

[Sotty7]

The contradiction is that you push rask to vote BBT immediately after saying you'll wait and allow BBT to post more.

I waited, he posted a little, I interacted with him he then replaced out. I still don't see it.

Grey, if you value your own survival, you'd be voting Jack about here.

Hey Sotty, a bunch small number of people are attacking me viciously. What does this remind you of?

I don't know what your getting at, but there is a pretty big wagon on you at this point. If you're talking about the nightless game, I have scrubed a lot of that from my memory, but I can go back and read that. If your not talking about that you're going to have to hold my hand.

Why do you think Jack is town exactly?

He's sharing my reads for the most point. his sotty push is good. Scum wagons especially early have the most resistance and I don't see more resistance to a wagon than the one sotty has had. Sotty's contribution is bland which makes the resistance to his wagon odd. Makes me think somebody who's town read hard is scum with him. Hence why I'm thinking it's you. You abandoned your vote on sotty for bad reasons which means your vote was for show. He got to 4 and you decided to hop over to an easy target.

He just admitted part of his reasoning for suspecting me was wrong, the rest of his reasoning is pretty junk as well, but brick wall, head and so on.

[Jaack]

I will try and make this as clear as I can

Rask - Thanks for the meta input. I think it might be better for us to continue this once BBT comes back and starts posting more. I'll put a pin in it for now.

Why don't you come and join me on BBT instead?

I find there two aspects of 271 to be contradictory.

[TwoFace]

Part of his reasoning can still be wrong and yet he can still be right.

I've seen nothing protown from you. The biggest issue from you was saying you agreed with the stuff victor said, and when questioned for what stuff you couldn't answer which means you were making things up which is more often going to come from scum. Why people ignore that is beyond me.

[TwoFace]

People are writing off sotty's interactions with me but its single handily the most scummiest thing to happen. It reaks of LAMIST while not even helping progress the game.

[Hoopla]

Also, four days from deadline? Seriously? There's like mafia games where a day phase is four days long. You could organize a lynch in four hours.

No matter how good you think your reasons are on Victor and IAI, you don't have the cred to call the shots and rally the town. I'm throwing you an olive branch here; a chance of survival by getting a Jack wagon well and truly going, with an opportunity to improve your image and influence in the game tomorrow. He's your third suspect and it's D1 -- how much better do you

really

think the odds of Victor or IAI being scum over Jack are?

[goodmorning]

So GM, how did you go from not having "a huge problem with either wagon" to chainsawing me for pushing that wagon:

I could vote IAI today if that wagon becomes a thing.

Like, "he voted someone other than the most popular of his SRs, thus Scum plus buddy!"
But if Grey had voted Jaack instead of Victor I bet it would be, "he has other SRs but voted the popular one, he is Scum!"

Yeah that is a strange 180 from someone you thought might be scum, to say I'm scum for falsely pushing him regardless of what actions he did.

Also noted the poor town read of Jack later in that same post. Grey/Jack/GM?

Because that was 200 posts ago. Shit has been happening. Reads change. Grey replaced in and is reading a similar game to the game I'm reading.He could have picked that path as Scum, because disagreeing with most people on many reads can make people think you're Town for effort-related reasons, but I think if he was Scum doing that he'd have picked someone better regarded than me to have similar reads to.

You, on the other hand, came in and magically had almost the same reads as almost everyone. That's lazy/busy Scum tactic if I ever saw it. Moreover, you made a push on the Grey wagon that was, as I pointed out in the above, exceedingly flexible in nature.

So yes, I think you're Scum and the push is desperation to keep that wagon going because Grey is scary to you.

Also Jaack still going with all this Sotty stuff makes me think he's more likely to be Town because that's a hell of a brick wall for Scum to throw themselves at.

why would sotty be a brick wall? twice they were the largest vote getter and twice votes went elsewhere. logic suggests sotty is scum and everyone else is a counter.

Because

the votes keep going elsewhere. (I still don't buy the wagon analysis, btw. A lot of times wagons just collapse because Town spooks for no apparent reason.)

Sotty could easily be Scum but taking associatives into consideration pretty much results in the same answer; if they were Scum together he'd still have found a reason to quit after the second wagon collapse because you can't keep tempting fate like that and expect to get away with it.

--

Weird that Victor steps into the middle of an attempted discussion that's only tangentially related to him.

--

Grey, if you value your own survival, you'd be voting Jack about here.

Sorry, I don't value my own survival above a scum death.

Don't you scumread Jaack though?

He realized that GM wasn't going to happen a few people were town reading her, and he moved on.

I like that you wrote this and didn't go, "well, Scum has no interest in pushing a wagon for which they have no support..."

Seriously, who do you think is responsible for 90% of vanity wagons? Because according to ^,

apparently Scum

.

@Sotty: I disagree, as is probably obvious. I'm not really looking to have an argument about it and wouldn't have even bothered posting any of that had I not been directly asked. I've been pretty averse to pushing weakish wagons on players who are probably better than me since NY169.

Okay. Lets try this then. You're the only vote on Victor, what would you say would be the most compelling reason that he is scum. The entrance into the game point you made I don't agree with. He's moved on from interacting with Hoopla. What about his other stances makes him scum? Did you think his BBT/Grey vote was scummy?

A. I am not the only vote on Victor.
B. I am not interested in helping you look like you're doing more than you are.
C. Does the fact that the misrep was in the past make it not a misrep?
D. I am clearly not going to be able to convince you on this and I really don't want to try.
E. Is there something about the vote that I

should

find particularly scummy? And why ask me about that in particular?

--

thx jaack and face

[TwoFace]

I give up. Nobody I want lynched is going to get lynched. Hopefully I'll have something more substantial tomorrow

[VictorDeAngelo]

Weird that Victor steps into the middle of an attempted discussion that's only tangentially related to him.

Weird that I'm the subject and even I don't know what your talking about.

@Sotty: I disagree, as is probably obvious. I'm not really looking to have an argument about it and wouldn't have even bothered posting any of that had I not been directly asked. I've been pretty averse to pushing weakish wagons on players who are probably better than me since NY169.

Okay. Lets try this then. You're the only vote on Victor, what would you say would be the most compelling reason that he is scum. The entrance into the game point you made I don't agree with. He's moved on from interacting with Hoopla. What about his other stances makes him scum? Did you think his BBT/Grey vote was scummy?

A. I am not the only vote on Victor.
B. I am not interested in helping you look like you're doing more than you are.
C. Does the fact that the misrep was in the past make it not a misrep?
D. I am clearly not going to be able to convince you on this and I really don't want to try.
E. Is there something about the vote that I

should

find particularly scummy? And why ask me about that in particular?

This is worthy of a lynch in and of itself. If goodmorning was trully scumreading me, it would make no sense to refuse to engage Sotty to try and get her onside. Instead she would surely by reiterating the case and ramming it down people's throats if given the oppurtunity. Instead she's just pointlessly arguing to no end.

I give up. Nobody I want lynched is going to get lynched. Hopefully I'll have something more substantial tomorrow

What kind of crap is this???

Four days out, and none of your lynches are going easy so you're going to do what exactly? Sit back for the rest of the day and just let another lynch happen.

I had moved you out of my scumpile but your going straight back in for this post!

[TwoFace]

Four days out, and none of your lynches are going easy so you're going to do what exactly? Sit back for the rest of the day and just let another lynch happen.

Exactly. Deal with it

[CloudKicker]

Wont be avaible for 2-3 days

UNVOTE: michel havent read anything past page 27 good luck guys

[GreyICE]

Also, four days from deadline? Seriously? There's like mafia games where a day phase is four days long. You could organize a lynch in four hours.

No matter how good you think your reasons are on Victor and IAI, you don't have the cred to call the shots and rally the town. I'm throwing you an olive branch here; a chance of survival by getting a Jack wagon well and truly going, with an opportunity to improve your image and influence in the game tomorrow. He's your third suspect and it's D1 -- how much better do you

really

think the odds of Victor or IAI being scum over Jack are?

Frankly? I'm a fucking excellent player day 1, while you self-admittedly struggle. Now you can argue "oh you replaced in so you don't have cred". To which I respond you have exactly as much cred as you give me. I think the odds are pretty significant that I'm right here. I know the odds are 100% I'm town here. And frankly, I think you know I'm town as well, you just don't want to admit it.

Sell me on Jack being scum the traditional way. Because right now you're being diet ABR, and full test ABR is shit anyway.

[BlackVoid]

I'm coming around to a townread on Jaack after a close re-read of his ISO so I'll try and explain where I'm coming from. I can only remember two main reasons he's being suspected. For playing under the radar, and for not engaging Sotty7 while he has a vote on her.

I took a glance through the four completed town games on his wiki. When he's town, he posts at roughly 20-25 posts a week. His posting rate here isn't unusual for him and fits right in with the level of activity we can expect from him. So, that's null.

Now, for his Sotty7 vote. I found that Jaack in general doesn't actively spend a lot of time and effort pushing his scumreads. He's content leaving his vote in what he thinks is a good place and just responding to questions if they ask him any. So, that's null too.

Others are welcome to glance through his nicely updated wiki to prove me wrong.

As for why I'm townreading him, he gives me the impression that he's putting scumhunting over his own survival and isn't afraid to draw attention to himself.

It seems strange to me that there has been as much discussion about BBT with his lack of content, particularly when he is not alone in said lack of content. (particularly I Am Innocent, but also sort of myself and Michel)

I don't see the point of reminding us all that's he's been flying under the radar and putting himself in the spotlight.

I think cloud is going a bit under the radar as of late. A lot of people seem to be willing to write off his actions as playstyle, but reading through this iso, it seems like he's been trying way to hard to assert himself as an important part of the town while simultaneously acting trolly. I'm not really sure here, but I'm feeling he's scummier than people have been treating him as of late.

I think scum would be a lot more cautious about saying that Cloud was flying under the radar. Because it sounds hypocritical and is likely to get a "so are you" response. But I think he is genuinely worried that town are letting Cloud slip by and he's not going to let that slide.

Now regarding myself, I think it's notable that there has been a lot of interest in me as a scum candidate in the past couple of pages, but no one is willing to cast the first vote. Of course now that I say that someone will probably cheekily quote this section and vote me.

I think a post like this just invites votes. When I saw him post this, I thought

someone

would quote this post and vote him. And MariaR did. He then proceeds to engage MariaR and question her. I think a vote here would have risked a likely wagon that would have been hard to shake off. He's making risky plays so he could scumhunt at a time when he's on the verge of being flashwagoned to a lynch.

As for the shade on me, I get it. I screwed up by being lazy and not participating for a good section of this game. If I get lynched for it that's on me.

Given people's reasoning for lynching him is partly because we don't lose much if we're wrong, this just makes it more likely that he gets lynched because he's absolving us from blame. It felt sincere to me.

All these quotes show me that he doesn't mind drawing attention to himself and risking being voted. Not only that, he's been steadfastly townreading his other counterwagon GreyICE even after a Sotty7 lynch became more and more unlikely.

Finally, I'm not comfortable with the inevitability of a Jaack lynch. Regardless of alignment, Sotty7 and GreyICE have people strongly townreading them or refusing to lynch them. Jaack doesn't have that. He's been fairly low-key, and no one has been willing to bat for him particularly hard. So when deadline comes, people from both camps will likely "compromise" on him when they can't get their first choice lynch. I think he's town and I want to open up that discussion before it's too late.

[GreyICE]

Now Hoopla, I'm noticing a contradiction that's irking me a little. Unlike

some

people around here I don't think every contradiction is automatically 100% scummy, but I do think this one is obnoxious enough that I want to directly ask you about it.

I'm not afraid of a hammer. Like I said earlier, I think Grey has earnt his keep. The value he provides if he's town overrides the chance of that slot being scum. When I unvoted and moved onto Jack I sensed a real chance of a rapid wagon happening there, but maybe I misread the situation? Either way, I will compromise soon if nobody wants to lynch Jack and I'll get back on the Grey wagon.

Also, four days from deadline? Seriously? There's like mafia games where a day phase is four days long. You could organize a lynch in four hours.

No matter how good you think your reasons are on Victor and IAI, you don't have the cred to call the shots and rally the town. I'm throwing you an olive branch here; a chance of survival by getting a Jack wagon well and truly going, with an opportunity to improve your image and influence in the game tomorrow. He's your third suspect and it's D1 -- how much better do you

really

think the odds of Victor or IAI being scum over Jack are?

What's my fucking value to the town if you're not willing to listen to me? It's not like I claimed some fucking awesome power role or something (you have no idea what my role is), you're basing this entirely on the strength of my dayplay. So... how strong is my dayplay if you won't give me any goddamn credit.

[GreyICE]

Finally, I'm not comfortable with the inevitability of a Jaack lynch. Regardless of alignment, Sotty7 and GreyICE have people strongly townreading them or refusing to lynch them. Jaack doesn't have that. He's been fairly low-key, and no one has been willing to bat for him particularly hard. So when deadline comes, people from both camps will likely "compromise" on him when they can't get their first choice lynch. I think he's town and I want to open up that discussion before it's too late.

I'm willing to compromise onto IAI since you townread Victor for some reason (seriously man... why).

See, I'm willing to work with you because you try to talk to me while Hoopla threatens me like a terrorist. There's a lesson there for someone (hint: HOOPLA)

[MariaR]

You get a sr and you get a sr YOU ALL GET FUCKING SR'S!

[GreyICE]

Grey, if you value your own survival, you'd be voting Jack about here.

Hey Sotty, a bunch small number of people are attacking me viciously. What does this remind you of?

I don't know what your getting at, but there is a pretty big wagon on you at this point. If you're talking about the nightless game, I have scrubed a lot of that from my memory, but I can go back and read that. If your not talking about that you're going to have to hold my hand.

Oh? You honestly think I'm scum here? I don't give a fuck about BBT, do you think I'm scum?

[GreyICE]

You get a sr and you get a sr YOU ALL GET FUCKING SR'S!

While it's a common misconception, town has to work together. If you plan to play the game on your own you're not playing like town, you're playing like a serial killer.

[MariaR]

You get a sr and you get a sr YOU ALL GET FUCKING SR'S!

While it's a common misconception, town has to work together. If you plan to play the game on your own you're not playing like town, you're playing like a serial killer.

I am a serial killer at heart <3

[GreyICE]

Sadly it's a bad way to win. You'll spend a lot of days not getting shot by scum that way, and you won't be shot by them because you're not a threat to them.