Mini 532: Yaw's Split Open Mafia: (Game over)

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vote: Korran

not random at all

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I'm here, just haven't been available over this holiday weekend. Doing some catchup reading now.

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vote: Thanatos

Phate is making sense. Your disagreement with his plans does not seem like townie reasoning to me. There is a marked difference between the way Korlash and Sensfan have disagreed and discussed the issues around the plan and how you have discussed the plan. You don't seem to have any non-BS reasons for disagreeing, basically.

FOS: kabenon

for having a non-committal opinion on the exchange. Sounds like he's waiting to see which way the wind blows - common for scum.

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unvote:

After reading the last page, Thanatos no longer seems scummy to me.

However, this:

[quote=kabenon]But I think Phate's plan could work, but it would take luck, extenuating circumstances, but I don't like the town running full blown into a plan that could cripple us as well. [/quote]

STILL reads as quite noncommittal to me. Just because he said Thanatos comes out on top doesn't mean he has a real opinion on the debate. He is still ready to lean either way.

I still think the plan is a good one, btw. It is true that some power roles will be exposed upon reassignment, but that's much better than losing the power roles altogether.

vote: kabenon

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Jex, I don't think you understand the rules properly:

The role switcher has the ability to change the Roles of two players. This does not affect player alignments -- the scum group will always stay the same.

The role re-opener has the ability to open the Role of a dead player. This would allow the role switcher to switch a player into the empty Role. Think of it as a funky sort of resurrection.

No limitations on how many times they can use their night actions and there is no need for role switcher to know who the role reopener is. Lets say player Zoobooboo dies and he is the town voodoo warrior priest. Reopener submits to mod "reopen voodoo warrior priest role". Switcher submits to mod "switch Zoobooboo's role with ClunkyButt's role. (ClunkyButt is still alive, of course)

Now ClunkyButt is the voodoo warrior priest and his former role, if he had a role, is dead.

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Hmmm, I can't believe I didn't think of this earlier but...

The main problem that I see with Phate's plan is this: (and I can't believe this hasn't been discussed already)

What's to stop scum from claiming that they are unpowered town and getting a power role?

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Yeah, I flipped because a flaw in the plan occurred to me that hadn't occurred to me before. Is that honestly suspicious to you all? Sheesh. How annoying.

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What's to stop scum from claiming that they are unpowered town and getting a power role?

Could have sworn I said something about this before... I'll look for it later...

It's possible, you said a lot of stuff. But I didn't remember that specific issue being discussed.

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unvote:
vote: Zhao

I get the feeling he's not being straight with us, that's all.

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So you think you know me now, eh, Panzer? After playing one game with me as scum? Sorry, but your radar is off on this one. That was a fun game, though, wasn't it?

I'm quite curious what your meta reason is though... I am not aware of any tells I may have, and anything you think you've discovered is definitely not a tell since I am of opposite alignment this time around.

Anyway, back to the game... I have a list of players I trust at this point and players I am still not sure about. I'll share so we can see who agrees and who thinks I'm off my rocker:

Trust:
Phate
Korlash
kabenon (yes I know I suspected him, he's changed my mind)
Holy
SensFan
Drunken Piper

Unsure:
Thanatos
QuickBen

Suspicious:
Zhao
Panzerjager
Jex

Here's my cases on the "suspicious" characters, starting with

Zhao

.

This plan will not work;
too many holes to exploit.
Phate is suspicious.

OK, even if you disagree with Phate's plan, at least he is trying to propose something to help the town in a game with a rather unusual setup. I doubt scum is going to be bold enough to put forth a plan like this so early in the game, therefore I immediately put Phate in the "trusted" category. Zhao seems to equate bad plan with scum, which seems disingenuous to me, and not a true townie-thought-process, so I became suspicious when Zhao said Phate was suspicious. Sure, scum could come up with a bad plan that would benefit scum more than town, but that is SO risky, and Phate's plan doesn't strike me that way.

Hey Sensfan, your buddy Phate is taking alot of flak for this plan, aren't you going to speak up? As the original proponent of it, I would have expect more discussion from you. You've haven't mentioned anything about it for 3 pages now.

I'm also suspicious of OTM, he seems to be flipping.

I don't see much purpose behind this post, other than to try to establish a link between SensFan and Phate (which I never saw) and also to try to stir up conflict between townies. Seems like a reach to call out SensFan for not posting about the plan at this point. And then he throws in suspicion of me in there, too, when I clearly explained why I was questioning the plan.

Later, Zhao explained this post by saying he thought Phate's and SensFan's plans were one and the same? That seems impossible to me, for a townie evaluating plans to make that mistake, when SensFan was actually quite critical of Phate's plan. The original post still seems to come from suspect motivations.

As far as

Panzerjager

goes, I have a metareason too. His posting style reminds me of when he was scum. Admittedly, I haven't played with him as town yet, so that's a pretty weak reason. But, since he's played with me before, he knows I can play this game. So I'd imagine if he was scum he'd want me gone ASAP, which indeed he does. He has pushed suspicion of me without any real reasons, simply claiming meta reasons. There are no meta reasons, because I am in fact playing very differently this game than in the game we played together as scum. Since the meta reasons are B.S., and Panzer clearly wants me gone, I have come to the conclusion that he is likely to be scum.

Finally,

Jex

. Jex has not posted a whole lot, and his posts have had very little content. The most that he said was back on page 9, and it was basically a misinterpretation of the rules that was the main content of that post. So he's pretty under the radar, and that's really the only reason for my suspicion.

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Sure thing. It was a hell of a game, let me tell ya. Should be a fun read, but I doubt you'll trust me afterward. I was godfather in this game, and Panzer was scum along with me.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... highlight=

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This

I felt Phate was suspicious because he so resistant to criticism when he was trying to sell his plan. I would think that a townie would try to be more cooperative. He kept on saying his plan was flawless, and even when as far as saying that people that were against him were either dumb or scum.

is absolutely correct. Phate's reactions to the challenges of his plan have been ridiculous. However, I agree with Phate that this comes down to playstyle. Phate may be an arrogant bastard, but this unfortunately does not make him scum. I still consider him trustworthy as town, but I do not find it fun to be a "teammate" with someone like this and I almost want to vote him off just to improve the game.

This

I'm irritatingly arrogant

couldn't be more true, and it is annoying to me that you see this in yourself and you choose not to change. Do you like pissing everyone else off or what?

Phate - please tell me what about post 273 makes you so sure I'm scum. You voted for me with no reason whatsoever and then Thanatos hopped on board with no reason.

Therefore,

unvote, vote: Thanatos

Thanatos: You are a tagalong, and you've done nothing to make me think you're playing for the town. All you've done is react to Phate (usually negatively) and now you're jumping on a bandwagon he started, on a player I know is townie, with no reasons of your own. You've earned this vote.

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No you didn't. You had some reasons before, but as Korlash so eloquently and sarcastically pointed out, all you said recently was "post 273 confirms him as scum." That's not a reason.

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Oh, that's all? The top of the trust list, that's what's bothering you? FYI - the orders of the list mean nothing... I'm not that specific in my suspicions. I just put you down first because you have stood out as memorable.

If I had to pick players I trust the most at this point, it would be Holy, Korlash, and SensFan.

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Phate, to change gears slightly, what do you think of Thanatos's recent hop-on of your bandwagon? Doesn't THAT seem like buddying up, since it seems to irk you so much when people agree with you?

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#2 is incorrect. If the plan felt like a scum setup, then I would not consider you trustworthy. As I said before, your plan doesn't strike me that way, therefore, yes, I consider you more trustworthy than other players who are simply reacting.

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I also find it a little disturbing that you are saying my logic is suspect because I think you are a townie. If you ARE indeed a townie, shouldn't you just think I am perceptive? Perhaps you read too literally. I don't share ALL of my thoughts as I read the thread, or else I would dominate the thread with pages and pages of material. That's one of the hardest things for me when I play this game, is how much I choose to communicate, and what I choose to share.

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risky is not impossible, just unlikely

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OTM, you have some explaining to do …

(snip)

Here you are setting up kabenon then voting for him because he wouldn’t choose sides concerning Phate’s plan.

I wasn't "setting up" anything, the only way you could interpret me that way is by reading me with your mind already made up that I am scum and that is poor play. I was suspicious of kabenon for being noncomittal, he continued being noncommital, he got my vote. It's really not hard to figure out.

However here you put him in the trust group. What happened from post 178-273 from him being suspicious enough for a vote to one of you ‘trusted’ townies? That’s a pretty big change.

He has showed townish reasoning in the way he has reasoned out the pros/cons of the plan.

You’ve also mentioned before that you feel Phate is a trusted townie because he is pushing a pro-town plan, but what reasons do you have for the other 4? I hope you are not just throwing names around so others can fill in the blanks for you.

Ridiculous. All of the players I have named as trusted have demonstrated that they are working in the best interests of the town, mainly with their reactions/discussion of Phate's plan. Again, pretty simple.

Why are you saying my statement is absolutely correct? I said Phate is suspicious because of his playstyle. But you said his playstyle does not make him scum. And then you continue that you consider him trustworthy as town.

I said your statement is correct because I can see your reasoning, and I agree that Phate's reactions to the challenges of his plan have been unreasonable. But I disagreed with your conclusion and I explained why. I guess I shouldn't have said "absolutely" correct. I can understand your motivations, though, is basically all I'm saying.

I totally disagree with your statement where you said you would vote him off because he is difficult. Lynching a difficult townie is still a townie lynch and hurts the town.

My comment was in jest. Of course I do not want to lynch a townie. I said "I almost want to lynch him just to make the game more enjoyable" - obviously that is different than "I want to lynch him." Your sarcastic-meter needs realignment.

What did you mean by “teammate”? The only teams possible are the scum team and night communicators. You trying to catch Phate with a guilt by association ploy incase you get lynched?

The town is a team. I am assuming Phate is on my team, the town team. It is really unbelievable how badly you can misinterpret things.

You are trying to defect Phate’s attention away from yourself.

First, the word is "deflect". "Defect" is when you change sides in a war. To respond, no, I was actually interested in his opinion. I was also checking for hypocrisy on Phate's part.

You expected Phate to be nice to you since you put him on you trust list … if he was townie?

No, I have no idea where you got that idea. Maybe you just shouldn't read my posts if you're going to misunderstand them so badly. Seriously, this is troubling.

Are you trying to imply he might be scum since he’s not saying you are perceptive?

No, I'm not implying anything, I thought it was an interesting discussion point. If Phate responded badly to that question, THEN I might start thinking he could be scum. At this point I am just looking for an explanation. I think you are trying to read into me too deeply, when really the meaning is right there on the surface. I am a deep person, but I type what I mean. I don't have hidden agendas, for the most part.

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This seems to me like OTM is trying to set himself for later if he decides to lynch Phate, and Phate comes up town. He can refer back to this post and be like, eh, even if he isn't scum, we are better off without him, which is bullshit.

Sigh, another bad reader. See above. I have no intention of voting for Phate unless something radically changes.

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OTM, must have forgotten I modded a game in which he was a survivor and I have read a game of his as town. He Is acting somewhere between him as a survivor and him as a Godfather.

Oh yeah, I forgot about that game. Well, I wasn't completely acting like a townie there either, was I? Is that all you got as far as metareasons go? I am acting "between" a survivor and a godfather? Not sure how that even works... but anyway... I play a little differently in almost all my games. It depends on the other people I'm playing with, how much I'm suspected, experience level of the players, etc.

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My explanations are not meant to be vague and underdeveloped, sorry about that. Just haven't had the time to adequately explain myself, and I don't have the time now either. Tomorrow I should have the time to write a decent post.

I still feel good about my vote on Thanatos, and I am getting scum vibes from SensFan too, and regretting putting him on my trust list at this point.

My problems with SensFan:

OTM has been looking very bad recently, most notably where (As mentionned) he sets up a possible excuse for a Phate mis-lynch and in post 307 where he admits that his playstyle changes based on many factors, including suspicion level. This looks to me like he wants to be able to (hopefully) come out ok of this debate, then lurk later, pointing to 307 as "proof" that he switches when he is not suspicious.

Ok point 1 was already discussed ad nauseum and he bring it up again, ignoring my explanation. Point 2 just seems like a reach to find possible scumminess. A lot of players vary up their playstyle like that, calling it a possible excuse for later lurking seems pretty odd to me.

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Hmm just found something while skimming through. This is back during the early discussion, long before I brought up the same issue:

What if the scum claim unpowered? we'd be giving them all of our power roles!

I doubt scum would bother to point this out. In fact, I pointed it out a bit later (obviously forgetting Thanatos had mentioned it) and I know my intentions were to help the town. If this thought occurred to a scum player, they would keep it to themselves and then use it later. (they would claim unpowered)

Therefore, I don't think Thanatos is the best lynch today, although I have disagreed with most of his posts.

unvote

I am getting the feeling most of this chatter has been townies arguing.

These are the posts made me feel like kabenon was thinking more like a townie, mainly because I agreed with them:

Yeah, but that can dip into WIFOM for the record... but I agree that Korlash is seeming mostly townie to me.

Read what WIFOM is... He could be like, well, a townie wouldn't be able to talk to scum partners at night, so I can look town by posing my question in thread instead of waiting for the night. That IS WIFOM.

Then there was the kabenon / Korlash joking exchange on page 11. I get a "I-don't-care-what-people-think-of-me" vibe from kabenon throughout this. It's just a feeling, really, and I can't defend why it pushes him more to the townie side for me, but I do tend to rely on "gut" during the early game, probably a little more than I should.

As I am rereading, I am feeling less and less good about SensFan. I'm going to vote for either SensFan or Panzer. (Panzer for reasons mentioned in post 273)

FoS: SensFan

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Man, posts 330 and 331 are incredibly scummy-sounding. It's like Thanatos is suddenly confident, since I unvoted him. Probably just newbishness, but I don't get why he felt the need to share those thoughts. "Just for the record" especially strikes me as scummy-sounding.

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Wow, OTM still only has 3 votes? why?

OK this is EXACTLY the type of posts Panzer was writing in our other game where he was scum. Almost word for word, actually. Huge tell.

vote: Panzerjager

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However you outlined your reasoning around kabenon’s discussion of WIFOM and joking around with Korlash, having nothing to do with your original answer. What happened to townish reasoning for pro/cons of the plan?

The WIFOM discussion was a tangent off of the plan discussion, that's what I was referring to, but I was really going off the vibe I got from kabenon's last few posts, and I just guessed at what those posts were about. Yes, it was sloppy, I didn't have time for proper cites.

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I interpret it to mean either scum or mason team. So since I see things differently for you, I’m wrong?

Yes, you're wrong. I'm the one whose words you're misinterpreting so I can tell you - you're wrong. Did you read my scum game? You think I would make that mistake, if team could only mean scum or masons? I'm insulted.

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I would also like to know what kabenon meant by post 339. Quite confusing. Who is confirmed scum and why?

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I've already expressed my thoughts of OTM, but he is at -2, and I do not wish to put him at -1 yet. I would never dream of making fun of a purple kitty... too frightening. If he says nothing to make me change my mind, I will be voting for him.

Strange, I've addressed everything that has been brought up against me, and have seen no rebuttal from you, but you still feel the same about me. What could possibly change your mind at this point?

I'm not even sure what the case is against me at this point. I said some stuff without offering solid evidence at the time for my assertions - ok, guilty as charged, and I have made up for this, I think. Other than that, I seem to be scummy by default, and I think a big part of this is because my wagon is being helped along by scum. Panzer and SensFan, I'm looking in your direction here.

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This might be personal thoughts, or feelings from the bust,
I question motivations behind people who post lists of who they trust.
Especially when they were not requested.
OTM why post them, for these answers need to be digested?

I find trust lists - especially the reactions to trust lists, can be very useful in figuring out alignments. Also, if I do get lynched, it will be a useful reference, since I will be confirmed town if I die.

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However, his accusations seem like a deflection.
Versus someone moving toward a scum hunting direction.

How so? I am voting for Panzer because I am convinced he is scum. Look at these posts from our other game, where we were scum together: (deathsauce was a townie... I pushed his lynch, Panzer supported it)

I'm confused. Why haven't we lynched Death Sauce?

Umm Blight, stop while you're ahead please. I still am standing by my one liner. "Why haven't we lynched Deathsauce yet?" Did I miss that in my read? I think at this point we're just talking in circles.

Why hasn't Deathsauce been lynched yet? I'm still wait for an answer. Seriously.

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Forgot to compare it to this game. Here is his post in this game:

Wow, OTM still only has 3 votes? why?

Exact same irreverant style to push the lynch of a townie.

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No, Phate, I meant irreverant. "disrectful" is a tad strong, but basically, yeah, he acts like he doesn't care at all about the game, thus: "irreverant". "Irrelevant" doesn't fit at all, actually.

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bah, "disrespectful" not "disrectful". Miserable typing by me. So disrectful.

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Here it is again.

1. OTM agrees a lot, without giving reasons of his own.

Agreeing is not scummy. If I don't post my own reasons, it means I agree with the reasons given.

2. OTM's vote seems to shift based on popular opinion.

Untrue. The only you *think* this happened was in regard to your plan. I supported it, then I questioned it later, when a problem occurred to me. In fact, most of the cases I have pushed have had nothing to do with popular opinion: SensFan, Panzer, Thanatos (later - earlier he was a popular choice) - my reasons for voting them were wholly my own.

3. His cases on other people are really rather ridiculous. I'd rather not, but if you want me to, I'll expound on this.

It's tough to make a good case on Day 1. Your case on me is pretty ridiculous too.

4. He's putting me on top of his trusted list without giving an adequate reason, which just looks like buddying up.

explained - top of list means nothing. This "case" is making it seem less and less like you are using townie-reasoning.

5. He moved kabenon straight from suspected to trusted, and still hasn't adequately explained why, in my opinion.

I explained it several times. Refusing to accept it is just stubbornness.

6. As soon as he came under pressure, he started trying to deflect attention to multiple other people in rapid succession.

No, I was continuing to scumhunt. If I hadn't, people would say all I'm doing is defending myself without looking for scum. I'm still playing the game to the best of my ability despite the mud being slung my way.

7. I've made all these accusations before, and he hasn't responded adequately enough to convince me that these aren't justified.

Bull.

FOS: Phate

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EBWOP

Untrue. The only you *think* this happened was in regard to your plan.

That was supposed to say "The only time you *think*..."

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Seems a few people are falling out of you trusted townie group. Could you provide an updated list to which you generated in 278.

What's the point, so you can nitpick me some more? I'm getting rather sick of being in the spotlight for no reason. Obviously I no longer trust SensFan at all, and I am slightly suspicious of Phate too... not sure what to think about him at this point. Whatever his alignment, he is annoying.

[Off the Mark]

vote: Panzerjager

since the mod is missing it

Fixed.

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Zhao is either a really bad player or scum. I'm leaning towards bad player at this point.

I'm thinking most likely to be scum at this point are Panzer, SensFan, and QuickBen. QuickBen's L-1 vote for me after a quick "skim" of the thread is ridiculous and deserves serious attention. If you're town and you're on my bandwagon, you need to seriously consider whether I am truly the scummiest here. (hint: I'm not, since I'm town) I have tried to show you how SensFan and Panzer are scummy, and now QuickBen has pulled the scummiest move of all, and yet somehow I am still in the spotlight.

I'm unpowered, by the way, not that claiming will change anyone's mind.

[Off the Mark]

Also, can someone explain to me this:

What have I done wrong to appear so scummy? For those of you that actually think I'm scum, answer the question this way: Assuming OTM is town, what could he have done better to convince you he is not scum?

I feel I've done all I could and your suspicions haven't changed, which makes me think this town is doomed, with all of you playing so one-track-mindedly.

I have explained my actions. Most of them come down to simple misinterpretation, or just lack of initial explanation with the explanation coming later. And for this I'm going to swing from a tree? I really don't get it. The sad part is, I think most who have really pushed hard on my wagon are mistaken/bad-playing townies, rather than scum. Zhao, Thanatos, kabenon, Phate, you guys all stink at this.

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There is other information that can be revealed with OTM at -1 that does not need OTM to even speak. But I won't say what it is, because if I do, it will spoil the whole thing.

buh?

Is the hammer that of which you speak? Because I really hope it doesn't come to that.

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I've never been lynched before. This could be a historic occasion. And I'm town, too, which really kinda sucks for my first lynch. Ah well.

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Oh, and I still think Panzer is scum, but I feel that pushing the QuickBen wagon is acting in the best interests of the town at this point, since I KNOW I'm town and he seems suspicious.

Therefore:

unvote, vote: QuickBen

I know, more votehopping, blah blah, but this is the correct move at this point.

Sorry if my posts seem a bit goofy - it's late and I'm tired. I get goofy when I'm tired.

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Okay, guys...i demand a lynch of OTM, like right now.

"Hey guys all these guys are scummy" page later after 3 votes move onto to one of the guys he named he switchs his vote..he also said he "this guy is scummier" then took his vote off to be FOURTH on the quickben wagon. That jump was so scummy it's amazing. He also claimed unpowered town..if Drunken Piper did in fact claim unpowered that means we have three unpowered town..what is the probability of that?

In all honestly

, I'm more then willing to trust my scum-hunting skills and lynch OTM.

In all honestly

, I think Quickben is newbie town that got excited lynching scum or newbie scum who inproperly bussed his buddy.

Saying "in all honesty" repeatedly means you have been lying to us in most of what you say. Also, why the defense of QuickBen? The "newbie scum who improperly bussed his buddy" idea doesn't seem very well thought-out. Seems more like you just threw it in there to make it seem like you are possibly still suspicious of QuickBen. Because the idea of QB and I being scum together is pretty hard to fathom.

I am convinced Panzer and QB are scum, although I am actually a little more sure about Panzer. I'm willing to switch my vote, of course, if Panzer gets more heat.

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I will also be away until the 26th

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As I said before, I like the Panzer lynchmob better than the QuickBen lynch mob, so I'm switching to see if we can get a lttle more momentum going on Panzer.

unvote, vote: Panzer

mikeburnfire doesn't seem to be helping much. Just voting his gut as far as I can tell, without giving any good reasons. When specifically asked for reasons, he dodges. Plus this makes no sense: (emphasis added)

Quickben, Korlash, and

Phate

gave me the worst scumvibes.

unvote Phate

because I don't find him all that suspicious anymore.

So Phate gave you scum vibes but you

don't

find him suspicious. In that case, you've got to explain yourself better. Tell us your reasons for voting/unvoting, especially since you're not using the vibes you're picking up.

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Incessant agreement? I think you're blowing things out of proportion there, Phate. You might want to go back and review.

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And would he not throw his weight on another wagon if he was, in fact, town? especially if said wagon is a good one.

Ding, ding, ding! Korlash wins points for being one of the few using his brain.

[Off the Mark]

Read through the first few pages again - SensFan is pretty obviously scum. Just a sidenote there.

[Off the Mark]

Korlash, your sig quote is screwed up. First of all, remove the third "e" from "believing". Secondly, replace "speculation" with "skepticism".

The reason I felt SensFan was obviously scum was that he came up with the horrendous massclaim idea, then when he saw everyone was suspicious of him because of the bad plan, he said "Oh sorry, I just realized something, disregard my massclaim idea." Then when people asked him what he realized,

he never answered the question

.

So I'll ask it again:

SensFan, what did you realize, besides the fact that everyone was becoming suspicious of you, that made you change your mind about the massclaim idea?

[Off the Mark]

I think he will probably hurt us in later days.
His playstyle is lacking, and leaves me in a daze.

You really have no idea what you are talking about here. Review some of my games.

[Off the Mark]

You know, OTM brought up a very good point with Sensfan. But I also wish to ask him, why did you not bring this up sooner? This seems to me like a scum who had information in his back pocket, (possibly about his partner, which is why he didn't reveal it...) and revealing it now that he is at -2 in order to save his own skin. Or am I just nuts?

You're just nuts.

I reread the first few pages of the game, just like I said, and SensFan's scumminess stood out to me. I don't see why my motivations keep getting questioned, especially when I spell them out so clearly.

[Off the Mark]

I hope the side that I am on(can not suggest which due to being replaced) is victorious.

Is this not incredibly suspicious to anyone else?

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I just don't see a reason for a townie to phrase it like that. Not sure how WIFOM applies.

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LOL @ this sucky town - you blew it, I'm townie