The real folk blues [Canceled]

[The Ascended Masters]

Confirm.

[The Ascended Masters]

I am Nacho. I will probably be posting a majority of the time until my hydra partner's schedule clears up. My schedule is not particularly clear, but this will not be a problem as far as content and as far as reads produced go.

This is a game where there are 32 people playing. For the early stages, I don't give a fuck if you are awkward scum and awkward town; if you hide, if you are not aggressive, if you make bullshit pushes, I will push you until you die. If, for some obnoxious reason, my chosen wagon is not the wagon in the lead and that wagon is not utterly atrocious, I will push the shit out of the wagon until you die or you town hard enough for people to get off of you. If there is ever a wagon at L-1 that I am not very, very strongly townreading, I'm hammering. If you are a power role and you find yourself nearing death, be very very aware of where my vote is because I'm not claiming intent and I'm not listening to any players who are screaming "DON'T QUICKHAMMER YET" in the background.

[The Ascended Masters]

I am Nacho. I will probably be posting a majority of the time until my hydra partner's schedule clears up. My schedule is not particularly clear, but this will not be a problem as far as content and as far as reads produced go.

This is a game where there are 32 people playing. For the early stages, I don't give a fuck if you are awkward scum and awkward town; if you hide, if you are not aggressive, if you make bullshit pushes, I will push you until you die. If, for some obnoxious reason, my chosen wagon is not the wagon in the lead and that wagon is not utterly atrocious, I will push the shit out of the wagon until you die or you town hard enough for people to get off of you. If there is ever a wagon at L-1 that I am not very, very strongly townreading, I'm hammering. If you are a power role and you find yourself nearing death, be very very aware of where my vote is because I'm not claiming intent and I'm not listening to any players who are screaming "DON'T QUICKHAMMER YET" in the background.

Great. 1 person I can already ignore.

Good luck with that, Diamond.

[The Ascended Masters]

Nacho my walls rule also applies to you
I just dropped a tear
I hope you're happy

There is no way in hell that I'm following a wall rule + that was nothing considering to the usual wall that I make. I don't care how people make themselves look town, only that they do it early and often.

[The Ascended Masters]

I am Nacho. I will probably be posting a majority of the time until my hydra partner's schedule clears up. My schedule is not particularly clear, but this will not be a problem as far as content and as far as reads produced go.

This is a game where there are 32 people playing. For the early stages, I don't give a fuck if you are awkward scum and awkward town; if you hide, if you are not aggressive, if you make bullshit pushes, I will push you until you die. If, for some obnoxious reason, my chosen wagon is not the wagon in the lead and that wagon is not utterly atrocious, I will push the shit out of the wagon until you die or you town hard enough for people to get off of you. If there is ever a wagon at L-1 that I am not very, very strongly townreading, I'm hammering. If you are a power role and you find yourself nearing death, be very very aware of where my vote is because I'm not claiming intent and I'm not listening to any players who are screaming "DON'T QUICKHAMMER YET" in the background.

Great. 1 person I can already ignore.

Good luck with that, Diamond.

I've played 2 games with you and neither game you had a chip on your shoulder like this. I don't like that.

So by ignore, you meant to say "push", correct?
I don't have a chip on my shoulder. I expect that this game will be fun.

[The Ascended Masters]

Nacho you need to look at some kittens

Every time I'm thinking about posting in this game I burn an offering to the Gods of Death. I suggest you stop shitposting and start townposting as quickly as possible.

[The Ascended Masters]

but since you hate walls:

tl;dr fuck kittens

[The Ascended Masters]

/confirm Bearbert head

[The Ascended Masters]

Well, this isn't surprising at all.

[The Ascended Masters]

hey vifam where are you voting right now?

[The Ascended Masters]

Vote: RachMarie

[The Ascended Masters]

Cerb, who are you voting right now?

[The Ascended Masters]

VOTE: Rachmarie

Finally nacho dag.

I'm still reading this damn game.

[The Ascended Masters]

I see enough ego and nonsense that its not gonna happen though which is sad.

Don't be so pessimistic at such an early stage; there's a bickery and sort of crazy vocal minority but that doesn't mean there aren't enough good people hidden in the cracks to make this game something other than absolutely insufferable.

[The Ascended Masters]

You realise I'm not actually jester, right?

That's irrelevant. You just painted a target on your head for scum that might think there's more than one scum faction.

This seems like an extraordinarily weird angle for scum early game. If he has legitimate suspicions on rb, there's no reason for him not to vote and push him (and look town in the process); I don't think that the chances that this is just a particularly ridiculous asspull are particularly significant.

Mhsmith0's opening seems town to me.

Didn't arrive at Nero town until 247, excited for the Drixx tunneling to come.

Expedience's ridiculously early VT claim was dumb as hell if true, even by this game's standards.

not wanting to talk about Expedience until kraska flips makes sense if you really, really think kraska is scum

The implication here is that it doesn't make sense to avoid talking about Expedience until kraska flips if you're really, really sure kraska is scum. The inverse is true.

Skrub seems fine; his reaction to getting voted is INCENSED TOWNIE RAGE.

There were a few spats here and there; nothing interesting.

[The Ascended Masters]

OMG 32 pages

Don't read it; it's mostly useless.
Instead, come vote RachMarie with us!

[The Ascended Masters]

I find tunneling to the exception of other significant happenings in the game is scumgame. It's not that he's protecting Exped so much as that he's just scum - the tunnel made sense if the scumread on Kraska was _REALLY_ strong for some reason, but it wasn't.

Expand this reasoning so I can find out why your conclusion keeps ending up backwards.

When someone says "I'll save X for later", what they mean is that they're focusing on the person they suspect the most and will reanalyze in the future. If you are convinced two players are scum together, you make the case for them being scum together so it doesn't die when you do.

Do you have any other reasons for your vote on House? I don't remember seeing any.

[The Ascended Masters]

not sure how to feel about Nacho's thoughts being almost replica of my own

My conclusion on House wasn't that he was scum. Jump for joy.

[The Ascended Masters]

Cerb, who are you voting right now?

My vote history:
House/Drixx hydra because House told someone else to unvote him in order to have a civil conversation.
Expedience because that wagon was gaining momentum.
Now Skrub because I wanted to move that wagon to 7 votes and expediences to 5 and see what happened.

What is your current read on RachMarie?
I know it'd be asking a lot to get you to move your vote one more time but you're embodying the lazy play and I'd love your help in producing some bodies and thinning the herd as painlessly as possible.

[The Ascended Masters]

also: don't tell me my conclusion is backwards when we're pre-flip, that's mighty annoying

I wasn't criticizing your conclusion on House's alignment, that was a reference to the "save Expedience for later" argument that you're currently pushing.

[The Ascended Masters]

I find tunneling to the exception of other significant happenings in the game is scumgame. It's not that he's protecting Exped so much as that he's just scum - the tunnel made sense if the scumread on Kraska was _REALLY_ strong for some reason, but it wasn't.

It would be really, really wonderful if the people who tunneled incredibly hard for no reason and ignored everything else in the world (and sometimes even ignored the player they were tunneling) were scum, but that's not the case. I don't think it's the case a majority of the time, I don't think it's a case a large enough percentage of the time to justify pursuing it as a tell.

[The Ascended Masters]

Anyways, until someone does something that is obvtown /obvscum to me, I'm just going to be floating around to the strongest wagons, ensuring there's constantly increasing pressure on someone, with momentum on that wagon.

You could do this and have absolutely no impact of the game at all, which I'm sure will serve you well if you're scum.
As an alternative, you could align with a block of people who agree with you philosophically (me/vifam/spyrex/kts) and together we can change how this day is played out.

[The Ascended Masters]

Anyways, until someone does something that is obvtown /obvscum to me, I'm just going to be floating around to the strongest wagons, ensuring there's constantly increasing pressure on someone, with momentum on that wagon.

You could do this and have absolutely no impact of the game at all, which I'm sure will serve you well if you're scum.
As an alternative, you could align with a block of people who agree with you philosophically (me/vifam/spyrex/kts) and together we can change how this day is played out.

[The Ascended Masters]

hey nacho what rap songs have u listened to recently?

have you listened to anything off blank face yet?

[The Ascended Masters]

why do we wanna kill rach again?

As I said in the beginning of the game, I'm working on producing bodies. I don't think that RachMarie looks town. If you think that she looks town, sell me.

p-edit3: rachmarie said she's busy irl atm, i think it's better to wait for her actual content

She's posted more than others. I understand that she's busy but I don't understand why a person being busy means that I should avoid mentioning them altogether.

[The Ascended Masters]

house is/was basically not even sorting the game, just tunneling on one target (which usually is scum trying to get towncred for being 'bold')

Your reasoning applies to multiple people (Nero Cain in every town game that he's ever played) and isn't actually something that is alignment indicative at this point. We are not yet at a stage in the game where it's reasonable to expect a person to gamesolve. Tunneling is tunneling and providing that as your primary reason for a push is laughable.

[The Ascended Masters]

RB

come out and play, i'm wasting away

[The Ascended Masters]

Hi Expedience!

Who are you voting right now?

[The Ascended Masters]

Hey, I'm voting Skrub

I haven't read half the thread yet so it might change.

What you were reading to me as an attempt to be nonchalant read to me as frustration; I think that sometimes people react a bit too sensitively to votes on them and that seemed to be what was happening with Skrub.

[The Ascended Masters]

Not moving my vote until I catch up

Why not?
There's no reason you can't move your vote back later, correct?

[The Ascended Masters]

@Mystery Woman:

First of all since when does being right = being town
And secondly the first vote had a reason, my vote was sheeping that reason cause I agreed, and subsequent votes were bc of the reaction
Look at 335, thats trying to look casual. Doesnt even try to contest that vote. only looks at the grapes vote bc it was naked even though the reasoning was obvious (Skrub's post just before)
All subsequent posts are about the votes on him, 591 is especially great
Then we have 618, which i guess could be hunting. Except its picking a random post where someone gives reads. Why that one? and why ask RachMarie that question specifically? its out of the blue and just looks like he realized he needs to do some hunting

@Diamond: scum dont fake scummy reactions is the thing

Trying to look casual when you are frustrated is not a scum tell, it's a natural thing that people do when frustrated.

I see that all subsequent posts are about votes on him. Why do you think that he would do this as scum? Do you really think that scum sees a wagon forming on him and decides that complaining about every single vote is the way that he's going to derail it?

[The Ascended Masters]

I'm just going to vote the biggest wagon.
VOTE: Expedience

We're working to make this game manageable. Help us, vote Rach.

[The Ascended Masters]

Wow Nacho after all we have been through I am hurt to the bone, but since you are not bussing a scum budz, you go in my town pile.

Last game we played together I was scum.
I didn't bus a scum buddy immediately.
Why do you assume that would be my first play this game?

[The Ascended Masters]

Otherwise I'll end up throwing uninformed votes everywhere before I settle, nobody needs to see that

I don't think there's actually a problem with this.
I don't think that anyone thinks there's a problem with this, actually.

[The Ascended Masters]

@master

i dont see frustration.

im waiting for

"but look at x!"
"this guy is scum because (raisins)"
"but i was only doing y!"


wat we got was "why is that scummy" and "youre a dumb poopypants for saying that"


there's new player and then their hooked newscum

I'll respond to this in a moment.
What do you think of Rach?

[The Ascended Masters]

@Rach:

I don't have one.

I didn't bus first in this game either.

[The Ascended Masters]

@master

i dont see frustration.

im waiting for

"but look at x!"
"this guy is scum because (raisins)"
"but i was only doing y!"


wat we got was "why is that scummy" and "youre a dumb poopypants for saying that"


there's new player and then their hooked newscum

Believe whatever you want. I don't really care

To me, this is frustration. There's absolutely no reason for Skrub to respond with the "I don't care, believe what you want" unless he's annoyed that someone doesn't believe him.

There's also these:

So explaining myself is scummy? Got it. I'll just post nothing but naked votes from now on.

Looks like almost nobody on the wagon is giving any reasons for joining it at all. That's not sketchy at all...

I think that your expectation for Skrub to have a strong (or okay) target for a lynch just because he's being wagoned is unreasonable; he's a new player, it's a perfectly acceptable response to be confused and a little frustrated when people are piling on you and you don't really know the reasons why.

[The Ascended Masters]

It annoys me when people like Klingoncelt do it. It's just generally disruptive to shit up the thread with uninformed conclusions like "omg this guh scumslipped vote: them oh wait it was a misunderstanding unvote xd"

There's a difference between "making uninformed votes" and voting a bunch for stupid reasons.

[The Ascended Masters]

I was not in that game Nacho I generally do more of my meta based on games I am actually in, you know that.

I don't see how you not being in the game diminishes my point.
When I am scum, I don't always bus immediately.

[The Ascended Masters]

@Mystery Woman:

First of all since when does being right = being town
And secondly the first vote had a reason, my vote was sheeping that reason cause I agreed, and subsequent votes were bc of the reaction
Look at 335, thats trying to look casual. Doesnt even try to contest that vote. only looks at the grapes vote bc it was naked even though the reasoning was obvious (Skrub's post just before)
All subsequent posts are about the votes on him, 591 is especially great
Then we have 618, which i guess could be hunting. Except its picking a random post where someone gives reads. Why that one? and why ask RachMarie that question specifically? its out of the blue and just looks like he realized he needs to do some hunting

@Diamond: scum dont fake scummy reactions is the thing

Trying to look casual when you are frustrated is not a scum tell, it's a natural thing that people do when frustrated.

I see that all subsequent posts are about votes on him. Why do you think that he would do this as scum? Do you really think that scum sees a wagon forming on him and decides that complaining about every single vote is the way that he's going to derail it?

[The Ascended Masters]

so I don't see where you get so many reads from unless you are scum.

Can we talk about this?

[The Ascended Masters]

I don't like master at all this page. At alllll.

Its it time to start favors 4 votes. Lets get this wagon movin

see here i thought you were saying "maker" and i was going to agree with you but suddenly i feel a pang in my heart

[The Ascended Masters]

sure he could be mad and annoyed. im going to wait for him to come back and see what he says. because to me a newtown would be omgusing. thats what omgus is; uninformed emotional kneejerk.

i want to know why his reaction was to take a timeout and think.


with so many players the bar is so low he woudnt be missed the rest of d1.


i cant keep up with ths game on a computer let alone an aging touchscreen

That is understandable.
There is no reason why you need to let this line of thought drop if you come to RachMarie; supporting our merry little band's quest will make this game a little shorter and a little more manageable for everyone, give it some thought.

[The Ascended Masters]

Why are we giving a pass to MoZ

I just read his ISO

VOTE: MoZ

Point out what you don't like about it.

[The Ascended Masters]

Like dude that logic can be applied to nearly any reaction scum or town have to anything

Not really.

@Killthestory - What I meant was the role modifier suicidal.

Thats quite the leap of faith, and while are you phishing KTS?
~Zanos

This is a joke, right?

[The Ascended Masters]

I think Nacho is town here

What do you think of Maker?

[The Ascended Masters]

Pedit: Not really.... Why do you ask? Maybe the fishing part was exaggerated but assuming a suicidal modifier was a pretty big leap of faith.

I asked because I was having difficulty believing that anyone thought DS was fishing by the "suicidal modifier" comment.
It was a big "leap of faith" I guess if he actually believes that KTS has the suicidal modifier. I don't actually think this is the case. Why do you?

[The Ascended Masters]

Yeeea nacho im your sword bro but id be double happy to stick in makers neck

I'm ready.

Vote: Maker_of_Zanos

[The Ascended Masters]

I think Nacho is town here

What do you think of Maker?

Couldbscum, dont really care for em

let's go

[The Ascended Masters]

Aww man I thought we were getting RM

vifam no hesitation let's go

[The Ascended Masters]

if you put your foot down and say "man i really want rach right now" then i'll come back for the sake of what we have together but I don't think that it's the right move

[The Ascended Masters]

i never said that

You're right that I read your argument wrong.
Are you a lost cause with the whole House push or are you going somewhere interesting eventually?

[The Ascended Masters]

Like how big do we need to be to be a force to be reckoned with? 7m 10?

10, probably.
We're still a bit away.

[The Ascended Masters]

VOTE: House

real vote - not wanting to talk about Expedience until kraska flips makes sense if you really, really think kraska is scum - so I wanna see a really real case for kraska being scum.

Oh. This is the argument I was referring to earlier.

[The Ascended Masters]

well if Nero is town here then you're wrong because he's sorting many slots even if he primarily wants to lynch one of them. i don't consider nero to be 'tunneling' here. i think you're just missing the point or you don't understand what is meant by tunneling.

i'm talking about this: "Tunneling, or Tunnel-vision, is when a player is so convinced that another is Scum that they are unwilling to look at other cases or consider that they might be wrong. It becomes the only thing they post about, and every post the player makes is seen as inherently super scummy."

^ the above is actually quite rarely seen by town ever, i haven't seen a town player do it even a single time in about 11-12 games. so whatever definition of tunneling you're using is not the one i'm using here. house is/was basically refusing to actually interact with the rest of the game, something i've very rarely if ever seen by town. i've seen town with really, really strong scumreads - but that's not tunneling, it's having really strong reads. i often have been accused of tunneling in this incorrect manner that you apparently think is tunneling, so i guess that's why no one knows how to use the word correctly.

tl;dr - you have no idea what tunneling actually is

oh god what the hell is this

[The Ascended Masters]

so i guess that's why no one knows how to use the word correctly.

tl;dr - you have no idea what tunneling actually is

This saddened me.

I don't think that it's far to say that House tunneled Kraska at the expense of doing or thinking about anything else at all.
1) You don't know what he was thinking about; not everyone's thoughts are on the surface.
2) You don't really need to reanalyze things in the first 24 hours of the game.
3) It's not like he was screaming about a Kraska lynch in every post; it's not like he was serious about the strength of his read (and I'm sure you are familiar with "acting confident when you aren't really confident").

I know I should give it up since you're a lost cause at this point (and I can see that now), but your read doesn't make sense.

[The Ascended Masters]

I'm pretty excited to see Maker push his shiny new SpyreX suspicion.
In the meantime, short catch up.

[The Ascended Masters]

doesn't make sense because to you because you think the slot is town, shock horror i think your read doesn't make sense either

I don't agree with Pisskop's push on Skrub. It makes sense, but I simply don't agree with it.
I don't agree with mhsmith's push on RachMarie. It makes sense, but I don't think that it's correct.
I don't agree with your push on House. It doesn't make any sense.

Disagreeing with something and thinking that it makes absolutely no sense are two different things.

[The Ascended Masters]

Why Zanos as wolf instead of just bad? I've played with both Ircher and BTD6_Maker when they were town, and frankly "Mislynch Bait Twins" would be a better name for their hydra. I feel like if they were wolves it'd be pretty obvious (with the caveat that they might be getting decent coaching in day-chat, if that's something on the table in this game), and at this point, I don't see it being especially obvious.

Smith - I think you need to refine your approach to the game.
There are 32 players. There are 17 players needed to lynch. The chance that 17 players will agree on a

good

lynch is small. The chance we catch scum in a

decent

lynch is decent.

If you think that Maker is a strong townread that you can feel confident in, I can dig that and I'll respect it, but you need to make the case for me. If you don't feel Maker is a strong townread that you can feel confident in, push him until he dies.

[The Ascended Masters]

I'm pretty excited to see Maker push his shiny new SpyreX suspicion.
In the meantime, short catch up.

Breaking my heart boo.

Unless that is murderous excitement

Murderous excitement; you are part of a very very small collection of people who I wouldn't instantly murder if given the opportunity and I don't see that changing anytime soon. I don't think that Maker can seriously push a case on you and end up as anything but dead by the end of it, but I'm excited to see him try.

[The Ascended Masters]

TLDR version: vote Rach.

What's different about your case on Rach than the case on Zanos?
She is also perpetual mislynch bait particularly for not explaining things and occasionally focusing on things that aren't alignment-indicative (which seem to be the meat of your push against her).

[The Ascended Masters]

Like her arguments that we shouldn't read House as scum and we should ignore his "tunneling" on Kraska when like that has nothing to do with ANYTHING are suck wank arguments.

Whenever I'm playing with you I don't really feel like we're playing the same game.

[The Ascended Masters]

I'm legiy serious though. He can stone up for a 1:1 and then we play by murderball rules.

I don't think the person who said that we were old-timers who just didn't understand him would be willing to play murderball, but I suppose I could be being a little pessimistic here.

[The Ascended Masters]

VOTE: Skrub

You seem to not like votes on yourself with little justification. You voted us with little justification yourself.

I am not entirely sure whether you genuinely scumread us or are looking for reasons to vote us to push our wagon. Ircher mentioned in the PT that Town need to look for genuine scumminess, be more open minded, and stop voting us for reasons that don't hold water.

I will analyse Skrub more later when I have more time but I already scumread this slot and this vote is better than nothing.

~Maker

This argument seems weak to me; who would like people voting them with little justification? Does that mean that townies don't vote until they have the most rock solid of cases ever?

[The Ascended Masters]

i guess? but the instigators of the moz wagon seem to have bonded over their weird townreads on house
and spy was telling ppl to hop on the wagon to clear house
i dont even understand

clean house

[The Ascended Masters]

Since you're reading what do you think about expedience not understanding that this game isnt for finding scum early but killing not obvious town

I think there are a lot of people who need to learn that lesson about large games.

[The Ascended Masters]

At best, you are no better than me. At worst, this is outright hypocrisy. If something is scummy when I do it, it's scummy when you do it. You are not somehow exempt from being scumread by your own tells.

If you think something looks scummy, you push someone for it. You do not first question if it's something you've done yourself, you just push for it. Who cares if he's a hypocrite?

[The Ascended Masters]

So why did all the sheep follow nacho? do any of them have a case or something to say? gotta say hopping along to a weak bus or a townie sounds like a scum wet dream when they dont have to justify it.

Its a safe haven, even though it in theory produces content.

Who on the Maker wagon are you worried about?

[The Ascended Masters]

2. 903 --> Complains about my reactionary analysis of KTS in 889 --> And what exactly is wrong with the post? It wasn't even a strong conclusion; just more of an aside/comment on how KTS was behaving this game & why. At worst its null at best its null. - Neutral (-1)

You tried to imply that KTS was scum because he wasn't acting like a troll. You didn't analyze any of his "serious posting", you just took a difference and you used that as an attempt to push him. You are docking points from SpyreX because he disagreed with you; isn't this the definition of bias?

Obviously, people are yelling because it isn't super obvious at a glance. Just cuz something looks obvious to you doesn't mean it does to everyone else. And quite frankly, I don't like how you are basically shouting from the sidelines despite not having giving your reasons to do so; it feels you dont want to be held accountable should this slot flip as town.

The Skrub wagon wasn't obvious at a glance, but it still popped up anyways. The House wagon wasn't obvious at a glance, but it still popped up anyways. SpyreX was pointing out that these wagons didn't get questioned, but yours did. Why? I don't understand how SpyreX is avoiding being held accountable for your town flip; his response blows this particular criticism out of the water, but just because he didn't give reasons for lynching you doesn't mean that people aren't going to turn to him if you flip town. I find that making a well-reasoned case on a wagon lets you get off with lynching someone more than just lynching someone does. Again, you're criticizing him for how he approached your wagon which again seems biased.

Yeah, the confirmation bias coming from this slot is quite obviously, and it really doesnt feel like town deathtunneling each other either. Show that Scrub is obvtown; if that were the case, then why is Scrub the competing top wagon? Also --> Look at the double-standard when it comes to people voting your townreads. I understand that the Scrub vote was somewhat bad, but how can you argue that Scrub's vote was much better in comparison --> You had no problem with it as far as I can tell. This is scum targeting the weakest link, not town that likes to deathtunnel players. Your attitude this game tells me so.

First, addressing the "if Skrub is obvtown, why is he the top competing wagon?". The majority opinion does not always align with an individual's opinion. The majority opinion (much like an individual opinion) is not always correct. I can elaborate on this if you'd like, but I'd hope that you can acknowledge that this is a bad line of thought if you spend some more time thinking about it.

As far as a double standard goes, SpyreX never argued that Skrub's vote was better than yours (although I'd argue that it was); he said that your vote was bad and that Skrub was obvtown (he argued absolutely nothing about your vote).

You seem to be arguing that old-timers (which feels directed at me and SpyreX in particular, please correct me if I'm wrong) are currently approaching your case with a closed mind and are producing terrible logic to push a lynch through. If you are town, I'd argue that this case is a case that you're making because you're frustrated by the push against you; you seem like a person who can approach a situation objectively but I'd be very surprised if you look at this case after the game is done and tell me that this is your objective approach to SpyreX's push on you.

[The Ascended Masters]

And then you mislynch people who dont play by your "One-Size-Fits-All" rule; this is great advice.

A majority of people aren't playing by my rules. I am not pushing or attempting to lynch all of them. This has absolutely nothing to do with the point that I am currently making.

[The Ascended Masters]

That's the thing that I don't understand. Why can SpyreX do whatever & no one even casts a shadow of a doubt there?

Show me something that I should kill him for.
So far, what you've shown me is that you're biased against his playstyle and pushing him for it, which is a neat little coincidence because it's what you were criticizing him for doing to you earlier, which is an even neater coincidence because it's as hypocritical as your partner accused Skrub of being earlier.

[The Ascended Masters]

By "comes to it" he means at least 200 pages into the game.

[The Ascended Masters]

Hey Nacho are you not interested in the Rach wagon at all anymore

I'd ask the same of you about the Maker wagon.

[The Ascended Masters]

But no, not really. I'd go back if the collective demanded it, of course, but I'm pretty interested in Maker at the moment.

[The Ascended Masters]

If mhsmith0 makes the case and Maker responds well enough to what I posted at him recently, I'll probably be willing to back off.

[The Ascended Masters]

But if I back off at this stage I'm probably pivoting onto someone that I'm killing because the day's already gone on far, far too long.

[The Ascended Masters]

But if he trips or stumbles, I want him dead.

[The Ascended Masters]

In the meantime while I'm dreaming of ending this day within a reasonable amount of time, I'd like to hear fancy reads (if you have special reasons for killing them or you'd argue their wagon if it popped up) on these people:

1. randomidget
5. Space Dandy [Hydra of Varsoon and Shiro]
6. DrippingGoofball
7. Albert B. Rampage
8. Road Kamelot
11. Mirhawk
14. Klingoncelt
15. Vedith
18. grapes
20. SirCakez
23. PeregrineV
24. davesaz
29. Nosferatu
32. Giovanni il Pellegrino

[The Ascended Masters]

^ is one of the reasons why I don't want to end the day yet

You are what is wrong with mafia today.
There are 32 players in the game. You do not need a read on all 32 players in the game today. It is impossible to have 32 good reads in a day without a very serious obsession and so by attempting to read 32 players in one day you have 32 reads that are not properly vetted.

[The Ascended Masters]

Which leads to the same conclusion as this method you hate so much but you tend to have less to show for it.

[The Ascended Masters]

You do realize that most all of them have posted maybe 10 times.

Which means that we... should lynch them? Shouldn't lynch them?

[The Ascended Masters]

are you talking to me because you're confusing me

You intercepted a post to Cakez.

[The Ascended Masters]

and altho i only played 2 games with spyrex but he feels different this game he isnt pushing this lynch as strongly as he did in other games even tho this is a 30 player game and ppl would wanna lynch anything in a heartbeat
also he's been going on about this "proxy votes 4 nacho" bs since like post 1...and he isnt gamesolving...where did his ridiculously early solid tr on house come from when house's post were so terrible

This post was so horrible it made me shudder.

[The Ascended Masters]

Hey, Smith.

My top priority of today is bringing you into the collective in order to replace brothers Vifam and rb, or, if that is not possible because you are dirty dirty scum, end your game today. I liked a few of your posts yesterday, but I was a bit weirded out by you not responding to my call for a Zanos town case (I assume you didn't see it), and I didn't understand where your drive to solve the game went if you didn't share the mindset that I did of ending the day in a reasonable amount of time.

I'll go through your posts in depth later when I have the time, but I'd appreciate it if you talked to me about some reads that you care about before that time comes.

[The Ascended Masters]

Vote: Mirhawk

[The Ascended Masters]

Kraska: What is your kill flavor? How many shots of PGO do you have remaining?

Vifam claiming to investigate Kraska overnight doesn't make Kraska scum so the votes there are fairly nonsensical. The rest of the neighborhood looks good to decent, Mirhawk looks horrible.

[The Ascended Masters]

Like I don't have a lot of time right now but the reasons for killing kraska seem like moonbeams when we have confirmed scum in the neighborhood. If your scumbuddy saw a town PR claiming to investigate

anyone

, friend or foe, wouldn't you kill the shit out of that town PR?

The PGO claim doesn't really make sense as a claim coming from scum in this position. I'll have more to say once kraska answers the previous questions.

[The Ascended Masters]

Kraska: What is your kill flavor? How many shots of PGO do you have remaining?

Vifam claiming to investigate Kraska overnight doesn't make Kraska scum so the votes there are fairly nonsensical. The rest of the neighborhood looks good to decent, Mirhawk looks horrible.

She said it's 2-shot and implied the flavor is explosions.

I've read both of those things. I'd like her to ask the moderator and offer a clearer answer.

[The Ascended Masters]

Are you not reading the thread or something? You know why people are voting for Kraska, right? Because we think an informant in the pt told her Vifam was gonna check her and they killed vifam. Kraska is as suspicous as everyone in the pt. I don't understand why you would make a post like this

If you were scum and someone claimed cop that was going to investigate a townie, wouldn't you kill them anyways?

[The Ascended Masters]

Vote: Mirhawk

You realize this brings up the sum total of your content today to asking someone to join your townblock and a naked vote right?

I'm not sure what point you're making here.

[The Ascended Masters]

the only way for it not to be is if Vifram was roleblocked before being killed.

This isn't true. I'll explain why if it isn't if you'll have the patience to wait for kraska to answer my questions.

[The Ascended Masters]

He was not killed by someone with a gun.

Therefore his death doesn't mean shit.

Well, we know that the kill flavor wasn't guns. It's not an incredibly large stretch to assume guns on the terrorist faction.

[The Ascended Masters]

The ONLY thing about kraska that's questiobable is not claiming pgo D1, BUT....why thr hell would they claim it now if they're scum? How does that help them?

To add to this, there seems to be an argument that kraska is claiming PGO to cover for neighborhood buddies (at least this is the only argument that makes any shred of sense to me), but this obviously doesn't hold once kraska flips anything but PGO. The claim doesn't explain Vifam death in a satisfactory way that doesn't incriminate kraska and it doesn't extend her lifespan. Not claiming it immediately is not really questionable considering join date.

[The Ascended Masters]

Pgo was a panic fuck up claim to explain the kill as town instead of going i have nothing to do with this. It also cant be verified.

Unless someone can fling people at someone id be fine with that my role isn't super neat

The stronger ties are to the scum in the neighborhood that basically has to exist if the kraska theory is correct.
PGO can be tested by throwing bodies at it; yes, it gets messy if certain people as scum but it's also pretty easily workable.

[The Ascended Masters]

TAM, please explain the shift from Rach to MoZ, and why both of those were better than the wagons thst existed prior to them.

I didn't like the House wagon post-replace out; entirely a gut read, but one that I was willing to stand behind Day 1.

I didn't like the Expedience wagon; didn't understand it, thought that he looked town. I don't remember my exact reasoning for it at this moment but his interactions with me when I engaged him on Rach/MoZ wagons looked good and confirmed the town read I had there.

I joined Rach because that's what Vifam wanted. I thought she seemed okay not good; her responses towards me started to trend towards good. I joined MoZ because that was what SpyreX wanted; I thought that their initial pushes looked fake as shit when they began posting. I softened on them a bit when I asked Smith to make the case to save them but not so much where I thought derailing the wagon and pushing elsewhere had a good chance for a solid return.

[The Ascended Masters]

Also he's continuing to dodge accusations against him.

If you have a real accusation you want to bring against me, I'll respond. I'm not responding to people who can't read me worth a shit and yet tunnel the shit out of me for gut reasons because there's nothing to be said.

[The Ascended Masters]

"Just throw some bodies at the PGO," says Ascended Masters. "Sure, it won't be scum bodies, but it will confirm that they are dead! Well assume they were victims of the PGO if it's convenient, and say we can't be sure they weren't killed directly if that works better."

Would lynch AM, Kraska, or Skold atm. All three should be scum.

A player gets wagoned and claims a targetable role. If they are town, they target kraska and get themselves vigged instead of mislynched (increasing town's kpn) and in the process confirming kraska as town. If they are scum, they refuse to target kraska and then a 1v1 forms.

[The Ascended Masters]

And the Skrub wagon? You know, the one that was actually in the lead before you started making votes bleed to MoZ and rach?

Skrub seemed inexperienced and pure; in particular, his response to his wagon (the one MoZ responded poorly to) seemed too... blatant? annoyed? to be coming from scum.

[The Ascended Masters]

Town kpm is amazing.
I've got no investment on any of these wagons and that's a bad thing

I thought that you kids wanted to play around in the neighborhood?

[The Ascended Masters]

Im sorry.

How is him being an alt capable excusing his reactions as 'not new' but then you want to defend him as 'too pure' in the same game?

I never excused his actions as being not new.
I am aware that he's an alt, but he reads very strongly as a relatively new player.

[The Ascended Masters]

And, to clarify since you might still be confused, the "not new" argument was for people who thought his early responses were new scum. I never thought that. I thought that they were new town responses. I also have a wider range of "new" than some other players do, so the fact that he is an alt and new isn't surprising.

[The Ascended Masters]

so are we excusing his pisspoor reaction yesterday or his scumbutt play today?

we cant do both

You find his actions scummy. I don't.
New or not new has nothing to do with it.

[The Ascended Masters]

Umm, I'm very sorry for not being able to play until now so can I get some cliffnotes on what has happened so far? I'm not reading 99 pages, but I'll do some ISO-s. Hopefully, I'll have cliffnotes from my partner too, but it would be interesting to compare those with what other players provide.

Bearbert head

[The Ascended Masters]

Prod aknowledged. Will post later when I catch up

[The Ascended Masters]

Well, I'm glad that I'm not coming back to anything but a bunch of foolish nonsense; wouldn't have it any other way.

[The Ascended Masters]

Skrub, please stop voting yourself; you're not getting lynched today.

[The Ascended Masters]

SpyreX, is there any particular reason why you're voting Skrub? I thought we were on the same page with regards to him seeming town and the pages I skimmed when I was sick didn't seem to say anything different.

[The Ascended Masters]

Slimming through TAM's ISO since he's getting a wagon now.

I'm seeing a lot of arrogance and arguments against wagons, but very little actual trying to lynch anyone, scum or otherwise.

Essentially, it seems like Nacho's trying to stop the Town from doing its job. I'll bite that lynch.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: The Ascended Masters

The arguments I made against wagons were primarily against Skrub's wagon. I also think the accusation that I didn't lynch anyone yesterday was silly when I was a very large portion of strong arming Zanos through yesterday.

As for arrogance, why would you bring that up? Arrogant tone is part of personality of how I'm playing this game, buuut I have no idea how that correlates with alignment.

[The Ascended Masters]

VOTE: TAM

Chaff, cutting, etc.

Well this is an unpleasant surprise. Since when have I become chaff?

[The Ascended Masters]

Cakez wanting a TAM lynch all this time but now that there is an actual TAM wagon he's ignoring this thread?

Don't worry your pretty little head, Nero. You'll be back.

[The Ascended Masters]

He will be back**

[The Ascended Masters]

You haven't done anything to make me confident in your alignment.
Other people wanna lynch you.
So there's that.

And you don't think that I'm worth a day of space? You think that "meh, I'm not sure he's town on Day 2 and other people want to lynch him so fuck it lets go"?

[The Ascended Masters]

Cakez wanting a TAM lynch all this time but now that there is an actual TAM wagon he's ignoring this thread?

Don't worry your pretty little head, Nero. You'll be back.

it was prob a bus, he normally town reads lurker scum.

Nope, you and him are two peas in a pod as far as "failure to read me properly" goes.

[The Ascended Masters]

You haven't done anything to make me confident in your alignment.
Other people wanna lynch you.
So there's that.

And you don't think that I'm worth a day of space? You think that "meh, I'm not sure he's town on Day 2 and other people want to lynch him so fuck it lets go"?

Gah, this just reminds me of the bargaining you've done in previous games.

What bargaining are you talking about?
I'm pushing you on this in particular because your approach to me in Cyberpunk was much, much different from this and I was under the impression that you respected me more than burying me under a "chaff-cutting" lynch. I mostly understand the clown brigade lining up to lynch me but I didn't know that you know that you counted yourself among them. What happened?

[The Ascended Masters]

SpyreX, a personal favor?
If I do die today, please quote Cakez's inane tunneling back at him. Do for my what I would have done for you if Mathblade got you lynched.

[The Ascended Masters]

And yes, I'll be back tomorrow with more content posts. I just want my frustration with SirCakez to be shouted from every rooftop if he actually manages to kill me here because this is getting just a tiny bit old.

[The Ascended Masters]

Other than that, I am at peace and I would be honored to be freed by your hand.

[The Ascended Masters]

Kraska, why did you shift to full troll mode?

[The Ascended Masters]

I don't quite understand how you went from claiming PGO and fully expecting to be lynched and then not getting lynched to whatever is happening now; from what I understood when you originally claimed, you figured that you'd have to die eventually (understood why stuff surrounding you looked weird), you seemed reasonable and normal and now you've shifted into full troll mode. From where I'm standing, it looks like you know you're not really going to live through until endgame so you're just having fun and being crazy until that point comes.

[The Ascended Masters]

At the airport...dude TAM vote for Skrub.

I don't think Skrub looks like scum.
I'll look at Mirhawk again to see how I feel there now that he's probably posted a little bit but I don't think Skrub looks like scum.

[The Ascended Masters]

Vifam claimed in the PT for what it's worth, but

his kill flavor seems kinda strange.

Could you talk about this a bit? I'm not sure what you mean by strange sounding kill flavor; did you think it sounded town initially? The only thing that actually makes sense for this is that you thought it was two kills, but you never actually thought it was (as evidenced by your response to Cerb later on).

eeeeeh, I don't really like taking someone else's word on another players meta.

I mean I respect it as a reason you might be scumreading him, but your mileage wont go far with me on a meta based argument unless its something I've noticed myself as well.

Hard not to love someone shooting down Cakez's meta of me!

They are seemingly not very committed to either the Rach or Maker wagons (the rach wagon in particular feels poorly justified which is maybe odd seeing as how they were okay with flipping back to it at any time) and they have a suspicious pencheit for defending House (and to a lesser extent scrub).

I was serious when I said that the best way to play a game this large is to produce bodies quickly and reanalyze from there; this game seems depressing as hell since I've been gone and I don't think that the natural dance of "back and forth and back and forth and back and forth" when you have doubts is exactly good for game health. I wasn't really scumreading Rach or Zanos; I went with Rach because Vifam, and I went with Zanos because SpyreX. I thought that Zanos's opening in particular was kind of funky but I liked his response to me when I attacked his case there.

The votes on Kraska aren't nonsensical, your logic sucks. Kraska's kill flavor is pretty obviously bombs/biological weapons, the only way for it not to be is if Vifram was roleblocked before being killed.

Or killed before he had the chance to investigate.
Killing is before investigation on NAR.

Mirhawk, I don't really understand why you're scumreading Skrub - you make some mention of me defending him tying into it but you don't seem to suspect me particularly strongly, so ????

[The Ascended Masters]

Hey, Smith.

My top priority of today is bringing you into the collective in order to replace brothers Vifam and rb, or, if that is not possible because you are dirty dirty scum, end your game today. I liked a few of your posts yesterday, but I was a bit weirded out by you not responding to my call for a Zanos town case (I assume you didn't see it), and I didn't understand where your drive to solve the game went if you didn't share the mindset that I did of ending the day in a reasonable amount of time.

I'll go through your posts in depth later when I have the time, but I'd appreciate it if you talked to me about some reads that you care about before that time comes.

TAM, you said sorting me was your top priority today, but I haven't seen you discuss me since.

wrt Maker, I didn't realize that there was going to be a quick lynch there (my last post of the day came at like L-8 or so), and while I didn't especially love the case against someone who is (again) known lynchbait, I didn't think they were obv!town or the like. I'm actually curious who here is familiar with town!ircher and/or town!btd, since I feel like there ought to have been people around who'd have been cautious about running them up for what (I think) essentially boiled down to a case about them playing badly.

I'll try to spend some time tonight catching up in more detail, but I'll probably end up skimming a lot.

I said that I was going to sort you and then you went on V/LA; I figured waiting until you got back was only polite.

You feel completely different than you do on Mafiauniverse, I haven't even seen a glimpse of that town!smith drive, that town!smith hunger. And I understand I have to be careful about not getting spoiled because it's a slower meta here and because there's a lot of shit to sift through and it's not just the bros here anymore but I was hoping we could be the murder brigade together and plow through some scum and then we didn't sync N1 and I am left feeling like you and I aren't clicking because you've been talking to some other girls on all of those late nights you've been having lately.

I'll probably go through your posts later when I have a little more time and the wolves have stopped shouting for my blood for a little while but right now the big concern is "why are you so different?".

[The Ascended Masters]

I don't quite understand how you went from claiming PGO and fully expecting to be lynched and then not getting lynched to whatever is happening now; from what I understood when you originally claimed, you figured that you'd have to die eventually (understood why stuff surrounding you looked weird), you seemed reasonable and normal and now you've shifted into full troll mode. From where I'm standing, it looks like you know you're not really going to live through until endgame so you're just having fun and being crazy until that point comes.

Forgot how strange you were at the beginning of the day. Still don't know where your "I have to be lynched today or tomorrow" attitude went or why it formed in the first place.

[The Ascended Masters]

Dude

I hae a bad feeling kc could be scum and going to get away with this one. Gonna ISO them.
Could someone PLEASE explain the gunsmith death meaning that gun person wouldn't want to kill them.
Also vedith is a pretty strong townread. Really liked the ir posting on this page.

Nope, not Scum, I'm Town, I promise.

The Gunsmith died because checked a PGO - or at least Kraska claims to be a PGO. A 2-Shot PGO.

Tbh I think Kraska is probs scum
that being said that skrub readslist was horrific
VOTE: skrub

Why did you dislike the readslist? Just because Skrub was scumreading a lot of lurkers earlier?
Your response to kraska made it seem like you had pretty decent conviction that Skrub was town; did that really all melt away just because he was scumreading lurkers or do you have something more complex for me?

[The Ascended Masters]

I find myself at a bit of crossroads.

On one hand, I like what I'm seeing from TAM now.
However, I did NOT like his early game and I find it a bit strange that he only appears now that a wagon is going on him.

If Mirhawk is right about the kill flavor though, which I am uncertain how to verify...
VOTE: Kraska

Why didn't you like my early game?
When people wagon you when you're gone, you're at a bit of a lose-lose situation. If you're gone, then people think you're avoiding the game when there's a wagon on you. When you return, then people think that you're appearing because there's a wagon on you. I think it's a bad tell for that reason.

[The Ascended Masters]

Nos has an atrocious ISO.

[The Ascended Masters]

And also has a lovely habit of posting elsewhere constantly.

[The Ascended Masters]

Admittedly, I didn't read ALL of your posts.
But from what I did read you sounded very intent on unilateral control of the lunches. Which I've seen from Town before.... But usually to push lunches they felt strongly on, not straight out of the gate like that.

And this is something that you've seen from scum?

[The Ascended Masters]

Not really.

If we intend to lunch them, we've written them off already and aren't scumhunting. If we do not, it often leads to apathy, or people pleasing. Either way it tells us little. Ezp3lecially in a game of this size, lurker pressure serves little purpose. If someone is lost in the content, a wagon won't help.

Lurker pressure, sure.
Lurker killing serves a higher purpose.

[The Ascended Masters]

And also has a lovely habit of posting elsewhere constantly.

I find that a bad way to scum hunt. Gistou was faster so I let slower games sit.
Activity is not alignment indicative unless they were already caught scum which in that case it is irrelevant. It only serves as conf bias.

Seeing whenever someone is posting elsewhere can sometimes give a decent gauge of whether someone is busy of just blowing the game off. Nos is just blowing the game off.

[The Ascended Masters]

And no I didn't have to look at posts elsewhere to get a sense of that, but here we are.

[The Ascended Masters]

Tam what is your take on the replacement i find that sketch writ large

I thought DGB being completely 100% lost and not really taking anyone's hand to get into the game was a small town lean from the slot; I think her attitude as scum is more "I'm just gonna do shit, fuck appearances" which means that it's easier for her to be scum and behind than it is for her to be town and behind. I think the vote on me is dumb but I haven't had a high opinion of the votes on me so far and I doubt that will change any time soon. I don't understand why Radical Rat voted me. I don't understand why he unvoted. I'm excited to learn both of these things.

[The Ascended Masters]

Lol I disagree TAM.

DGB did the opposite in Wake and tried to VT lurk it out. Fuck appearances is both alignments but trying to explain without prompting is DGB's scum claim iMHO.

Trying to explain without prompting? What do you mean?

[The Ascended Masters]

i been patiently waiting for a track for so long

i think i'm the one more in need right at this very moment

[The Ascended Masters]

Lol I disagree TAM.

DGB did the opposite in Wake and tried to VT lurk it out. Fuck appearances is both alignments but trying to explain without prompting is DGB's scum claim iMHO.

Actually I don't get your point at all.
DGB claimed early in Wake's so she wouldn't get nightkilled, and I don't really see how she seems as lost there as she did here.

[The Ascended Masters]

agreed

VOTE: vax

...No.

Who The Fuck Are You!?

And by that I mean, who are you and when did you get here??
Replacement I hope?

Replaced Road Kamelot.

[The Ascended Masters]

TAM, have you played with scum Skrub before?

I haven't played with Skrub before.

[The Ascended Masters]

Yes. RadiantCowbells to be precise.

But that's a "regardless of alignment" type of deal, that's just who he is.
What I wanted was not unilateral control of the lynch (as evidenced by me being willing to go along with the wagons I went with yesterday). What I wanted was to lynch in a reasonable amount of time, and we did. It wasn't the best lynch in the world but it wasn't the worst and we didn't have to pull all of our fingernails out and kill our first born children to get it. It was lovely.

[The Ascended Masters]

And somehow someway it's already past my bedtime.

In my heart I want bullets to Nosferatu, I want bullets to mhsmith0, I want bullets to Kraska, I want bullets to randomidget.
Nosferatu hasn't done jack shit will never do jack shit. The part that flips it to a scumread is when they do attempt to scumhunt or do weird scumhunty things it reeks of bullshit; I'd imagine town at that level of no fucks given would probably just replace out or do nothing but troll. Mhsmith0 doesn't feel like the big strong mhsmith0 I needed this game. Kraska self-voting and being like "I need to die" and then suddenly dropping it and shifting to troll mode is kind of crazy. Randomidget's switch on Skrub seems weird. I skimmed Skrub's game in whatever great idea variant was in his Micro games list, was intrigued, will follow up in the future.

[The Ascended Masters]

NACHO WHAT DO YOU REQUIRE pleaaaaaaase

A track, a song, a beat, a foothold.
Not right now because it's late and can't get hype before bed but you know exactly what I need.

[The Ascended Masters]

I wish one of these wagons didn't suck.
I don't really have time to do reading today but I'll probably be around.

Vote: Nosferatu

Skrub's wagon is nonsense as shit; I don't think the "counterwagon!!" argument holds water at all since if think that someone was protecting Skrub that someone was me (since I'm the one that shifted it). The fact that the wagon fell apart in the first place shouldn't matter at all, though; it's not like town wagons are always driven to lynch and scum wagons always fall apart.

Skrub, you shouldn't let Panzerjager push you around, and not sure that you are. If you want to make yourself useful, find a scumread that you feel good about pushing and push it; it's not like he's going to defend you tomorrow when the clown crew comes calling and it's not like anyone else will either if all you're doing is voting to live.

Nero, you've known me for 7 years. You've called me "she" for 7 years. You see every other person in the game who refers to me as "he", I've had the right gender in my profile for all of those years; how is it that, of every person that I've played with on this site and others, you're the only one who still can't get it right?

[The Ascended Masters]

I think we need to consolidate. I've said this before.

Kraska can wait. We have two viable wagons on possible scum with many accosiatives to look into after they flip. Why would we splinter off to go for a third wagon that's been toeing the line of viability all day!?

Let's just get our shit together, get a lynch done,and go home!

If your only worry is consolidating and lynching, then you should be voting me. If it isn't, well, your argument falls flat here.

Right now we have two wagons on two townies. The case on Skrub is terrible from what I'm familiar with and Skrub's play on its own looks town as hell. At this point, there's no reason why forming a wagon should take an unreasonable amount of time, especially when the target in question looks absolutely wonderful as far as kill targets go.

[The Ascended Masters]

If I make it unbalanced we will lose any sense of why people vote you,

Why are people voting me now?

[The Ascended Masters]

TAM, what's your Nos case then? I don't get why they look wonderful as a kill target.

For one, why would you ever want to keep them alive? I don't really understand how you're reading their ISO and going "yep, that seems like a terrible kill target, what does Nacho see in there that makes him want to kill Nosferatu?".

I doubt that Nos is town because he hasn't done shit this game and has no plans of doing anything; every once in a while he'll pretend he's about to do something with shallow questions "what's a mole?" "oh PK you might be scum!", but there's not a genuine piece of scumhunting in the entire ISO whereas everyone else here has at least managed something.

[The Ascended Masters]

Nero, you've known me for 7 years. You've called me "she" for 7 years. You see every other person in the game who refers to me as "he", I've had the right gender in my profile for all of those years; how is it that, of every person that I've played with on this site and others, you're the only one who still can't get it right?

I am

supposedly

misreading you and this is what you decide to fuss at me about?

I don't expect you to ever be able to read me accurately. I do expect you to be able to use the right pronoun eventually.

Why do they suck, they're both pretty scummy?

If you want to talk about survivalism just look at TAM. Only posting content when the wagon built up on them, no scumhunting that isn't being forced by pressure.

Or I'm just posting when I have time, same as I've always done.

[The Ascended Masters]

My stance on Nos is they will lurk and be useless regardless of alignment so they are a stupid lynch. Now if we wanted to lynch a scummy lurker we could lynch RM. Random more than Rach at this point.

Well, I agree that they don't do much anyways. And I suppose that does make them vig worthy instead.

If they need to die, why is it important that they die by vig over by lynch?

[The Ascended Masters]

My stance on Nos is they will lurk and be useless regardless of alignment so they are a stupid lynch. Now if we wanted to lynch a scummy lurker we could lynch RM. Random more than Rach at this point.

Nero read the game or stop talking. I'm not lurking anymore and rach has been replaced. Nice faking of reads tho

I didn't see that Rach was replaced.

[The Ascended Masters]

Oh, and Nero:

This is a game with Nosferatu as town not being useless. You're implying that they're always like this, but that isn't at all the case.

[The Ascended Masters]

My stance on Nos is they will lurk and be useless regardless of alignment so they are a stupid lynch. Now if we wanted to lynch a scummy lurker we could lynch RM. Random more than Rach at this point.

Well, I agree that they don't do much anyways. And I suppose that does make them vig worthy instead.

If they need to die, why is it important that they die by vig over by lynch?

Because a lynch ends the day. A vig does not. Lurksacks should always be vigged over lynched.

Why is ending the day on an active player lynch better than ending the day on a lurker lynch?

[The Ascended Masters]

Kids TV Show Characters Mafia

Nacho, what do you think of that as a comparable to you this game? Is cakey just bullshitting or does he have a point? I'll get around to skimming it at some point but wanted your take first.

My day 1 there looks nothing like my Day 1 here. You'll be able to tell from a cursory glance.

[The Ascended Masters]

When I asked them before they said they didn't mind being referred to by either pronoun; I'd guess she based on their last post, though.

[The Ascended Masters]

my experience with town nos is that he plays good

hes not playing good here

Come join.

[The Ascended Masters]

Although wrt random my point wasn't so much that he was lurking as it was that he was lurking while claiming it to be, also that he was wrong about rach status while attacking Nero for not being aware of rach's status.

yeah i didn't understand what pisskop was driving at as far as "pot calling the kettle back" goes

[The Ascended Masters]

Oh, and Nero:

This is a game with Nosferatu as town not being useless. You're implying that they're always like this, but that isn't at all the case.

ok, I wasn't in that game.

Have you played with Nosferatu before?

[The Ascended Masters]

Because that gives us information going into the night. Additionally, lurkers should be nightvigged, not dayvigged. Dayvigs should be treated as a second lynch.

If you want to know why lurkers shouldn't be lynched, and should be vigged, see Metal Gear Solid V Mafia. 3 days were wasted by trying to lynch a lurker (who admitedly was lynchproof). If they had tried to vig PV instead of lynching him, then they might have had a chance of winning that game.

Using a town trying to lynch someone who is lynchproof three days in a row as an example of why lurkers shouldn't be lynched is sort of silly, don't you think? Town got punished for lynching PV because he was lynchproof, not because he was a lurker.

You get information when you lynch scum. You don't get the same level of information when you lynch town.

[The Ascended Masters]

For the most part, you lynch scum since nothing can interfere qith a lynch as where night actions are less certain. We shouldn't have to be explaining mafia theory to TAM.

By to TAM do you mean to DiamonSentinel? He's the one who's saying that we should avoid lynching scumreads if they're lurking because they don't give enough information when they die.

[The Ascended Masters]

Which isn't to say that random is a town read, just that that moment in and of itself strikes me as null/bad play and nit necessarily wolfy. If there isn't day chat I'd be more suspicious, but my sense is larges usually have day chat. Is that correct?

yes but it wouldn't be suspicious without day chat either

[The Ascended Masters]

This is a game that you played with Nosferatu where he was town and not useless at all. The other recent game I found he was scum and useless and replaced out D1.

What are you getting this "useless regardless of alignment" thing from again?

[The Ascended Masters]

Which isn't to say that random is a town read, just that that moment in and of itself strikes me as null/bad play and nit necessarily wolfy. If there isn't day chat I'd be more suspicious, but my sense is larges usually have day chat. Is that correct?

yes but it wouldn't be suspicious without day chat either

Without day chat he'd be lying on his own more, and I could see the need to produce "content" or an overreaction to shade thrown as possible reasons to suspect him. With day chat, though, it'd surprise me more. Like, what's the point of saying something that's very obviously going to make himself look bad? I'd expect him to bring it up in day chat there as opposed to reacting itt, unless we're dealing with lol wolves here.

I find that reasoning weak and reachy. People say things that are blatantly wrong all the time but unfortunately it's not always alignment indicative. I don't think that there's scum motivation for saying that Rach was replaced. Do you?

[The Ascended Masters]

First of all, when a town is strongarmed early in the game, more than likely, the biggest people pushing for that lynch are town.

what

[The Ascended Masters]

hey diamondsentinel
you thanked him for asking the question but you didn't actually answer it

[The Ascended Masters]

who strongarmed the MoZ lynch yesterday?

[The Ascended Masters]

I think Random is likely scum and was lashing out at me to throw shade on me. Rach was prodded and if she doesn't rerespond she'll be replaced so if you tilt your head just right the he is sorta right but I still think attacking me like that is scum motivated.

Almost seems too wolfy to be a wolf though. Like, what's the point of attacking you there when you're not a wagon and rach (who's being discussed) isn't either? I mean, I guess it could just be scum playing badly, but I'd think that attacking you for being wrong on the facts when he himself was wrong on the facts is just bad play in and of itself and not especially AI.

I think the scum motivation here is that he's trying to use it to discredit my read on him. I mean sure, I think OMGUS

IS

scummy but I know it also comes from bad town all the time and its possible that he is just that but then if he was just pissed at me for having a slight scum read on him why would fuss at me for "incorrectly" reading the thread?

Why would any person think that saying you weren't reading the game (and using incorrect information as proof of this) would discredit your reads?

[The Ascended Masters]

Hey Nero who strongarmed the MoZ lynch yesterday? Asking for a friend.

[The Ascended Masters]

I really really can't see TAM as town,

Why do you think that I'm scum?

[The Ascended Masters]

Because you just made the argument that the big piece of information that you get from lynching active town is that the biggest people who pushed that wagon through are town. I was one of the biggest people who pushed the Zanos wagon through; I shut the Skrub wagon down when it was the alternative, and I certainly pushed it through at it's early stages (hence SirCakez's and Nero's votes on me). So... what?

[The Ascended Masters]

Oh good, it's up and stayed up.

I thought the previous question was whether it's better to lynch active vs lurker.
But in either case, it's not an issue of info vs. no info, it's an issue of more info vs. less info.

Pedit: and I took too long, conversation has moved on.

Active players only give more information when lynched than inactive players when they are scum. You don't get more information when you lynch an active townie; you lose their potential scumhunting down the road. "What information do we get from this lynch?" shouldn't factor into your push when you're trying to lynch someone because "is this person scum?" is the question that matters far, far more.

[The Ascended Masters]

And TAM, it's just an overall feeling. I've played with you, Nacho, as town and scum (I believe it's the same Nacho). I have gotten good at getting feelings about your alignment. Like it or not, you're quite obvious scum right now.

Last time we played together, you failed to read me correctly. This game, you're suddenly an expert?
If you fooled me as scum and then the next game we played I said I knew how to read you based on hunch, what would you say to me?

[The Ascended Masters]

Actually, TAM spent most of yesterday pressuring rb.

And by "pressuring rb", you mean "talking him rb of his House scumread", right?

[The Ascended Masters]

I'm pretty excited to see Maker push his shiny new SpyreX suspicion.
In the meantime, short catch up.

Breaking my heart boo.

Unless that is murderous excitement

Murderous excitement; you are part of a very very small collection of people who I wouldn't instantly murder if given the opportunity and I don't see that changing anytime soon. I don't think that Maker can seriously push a case on you and end up as anything but dead by the end of it, but I'm excited to see him try.

[The Ascended Masters]

You went "look, Nacho liked Maker's play!". I pointed out the post 4 posts later where I clarified that no, I didn't.
You also didn't manage to quote all of my posts about Maker; why is that?

[The Ascended Masters]

I was saying "whoever strongarmed MoZ was likely town" and then you said "TAM strongarmed them" which upon ISO 100% wasn't true. This makes it look like you are trying to get them townread even though the basis of this townread is obviously untrue.

I asked Nero who strongarmed MoZ.
Because his case on me is that I strongarmed MoZ yesterday. That's Cakez's case as well.

[The Ascended Masters]

If he's scum, go ahead and lynch me.

I assume you meant to say "if he's town".
The only thing that needs to happen when I flip town is for you to take a step back and actually read what people are saying. Same for Nero. Same for Cakez.

[The Ascended Masters]

And being confident is fine; bloodlust in mafia is fun. But when you're wrong, you need to acknowledge that you were wrong, you need to find out why you were wrong, and you need to fix it in the future. You should never find yourself in a position where you don't believe the person you're pushing could ever be town in any circumstance ever because that means that for an entire day you're wasting time and effort forming a narrative that will be completely useless when your tunnel target flips town; you'll miss on scummy shit happening around you because you're tunnel-visioned, and if you never learn how to do that then you'll find people listening to you less and less and less, even if you are right occasionally.

[The Ascended Masters]

hadn't done an Iso read as they seem to have presumed I did.

When you didn't actually end up defending Nos I assumed I was wrong originally.

[The Ascended Masters]

Nos wagon sucks we should be lynching Kraska.

Why does the Nos wagon suck? What's your reason for thinking that he's town?

[The Ascended Masters]

Also this whole nos wagon feels like the scum need an easy lynch to cover for nacho here, and the hit the most annoying lurker because skrub would be way too obvious.

Alternatively, it's me pushing through a wagon on a player who hasn't done shit and looks plenty scummy in their own right, as evidenced with no one actually able to produce a good townread on him.

[The Ascended Masters]

Idk if you're scum it's with nacho, so before we talk about you I want to take down nacho. Nacho gives us waaay more info then nos. Nos is just a straight lurker no interaction wagon. Do it without me if you're gonna do it.

What information do you get from my lynch when I flip town? What information did you get from yesterday's lynch?

The idea of not wanting to lynch lurkers because they don't give enough "information" when they flip is garbage; there's no reason you should be worried about anything beyond lynching scum.

[The Ascended Masters]

like wheres th resistance to this wagon. it grew faster than any of our prior ones.

did anyone verify more than the one fucking game that TAM tried to faux off as meta?

"ohh its one bigole scumteam" and suddenly 6 votes appea. no flags?

id lynch rach today. spy, you hurt mah feels by not thinking about all my very outrageous chops

I see resistance in Mathblade, you, Panzer, no one from my wagon has moved and will move - how much more resistance do you want, exactly?

I have experience with Nos and I looked through Street Fighter with Nos. In both games, Nos seemed perfectly capable of producing reads and pushes early despite not really doing much in general; when they've made pushes here, they haven't really been up to snuff.

I'm not surprised the wagon is moving as quickly as it is when the altetnatives are me/Skrub wagons.

[The Ascended Masters]

nope.

what info do you get from my lynch doesmt work when youre pushing a lrker lynch you disingenuous bugger

I don't care for the information argument; what matters is that we lynch scum like we're supposed to do. You are arguing that Nos is a bad lynch because we don't get information and you're the one who is arguing that my lynch is going to give troves and troves of information - what do you learn when I flip town?

[The Ascended Masters]

Do us a favor and look at nosferatus iso's and tell me they arent scummy. It's all fluff.

you just said nothings there. how is having nothing at all scummy. literally null by definition.

are you high

Cerberus isn't reading either and yet he's still managing to do things when he's around!

[The Ascended Masters]

Hi. Where the heck did this nosterafu wagon come from?

Who do you think is a better lynch between me and Nosferatu? Why?

[The Ascended Masters]

Do you think that I strong armed the Zanos lynch to save you yesterday? Because that's what a lot of people are arguing!

[The Ascended Masters]

Hey
I'm busy and don't have much time for this
But why is nos getting lynched and not pewpewed
If this flips town, Tom will be a repeat of how today was going up until the switch to nos

Why would you assume that a vig was going to shoot Nos?

I don't think that the wagon on Skrub is anything but terrible. Surprisingly enough, I also think that the wagon on me sucks. I don't think that Nos looks town at all.

[The Ascended Masters]

just mqke content bro.

stop igniring people who are vocally calking you oyt. yoyr fluffers are wrong

Tbf tam this should be addressed 4 srs

What have I not addressed?

There are people who are voting me because I strongmanned a lynch. I said in my second post that I was strongmanning lynches this game and I explained why; if people have a problem with that, then they have a problem with my playstyle and there's absolutely nothing I can do about that. Anyone who has played with me more than a couple of days knows that I strongman lynches when I play games; I make sure that my voice is heard and I push hard to get what I want.

There are people voting me because I'm "not scumhunting", but that's not true either - just because I have not extensively cased my scumreads and wrote novels and novels on them doesn't mean that I'm scumhunting; if anyone is looking for an in depth read anywhere, then all they have to do is ask; it's not like I'm refusing to give reads everywhere and it's not like everyone has commented on everyone in the entire playerlist because it's not necessary in a game as big as this one.

There's Cakez pushing me because "I've never been prodded before" - this is bullshit, this is wrong (I got prodded plenty in Quolls Mafia in Mini Normal, I got replaced in Light & Darkness). There are people pushing me because I'm lurking - lurking is not alignment indicative for me, it's life-indicative. I'm sure that no one would take my word for it (nor should they), but it doesn't really make sense to push someone with ~200 posts as for lurking; it's just holding me up to an unreasonable standard that isn't reflected in my meta.

There are people pushing me because I'm pushing an easy lynch to counterwagon my own - this is a "fucked if I do, fucked if I don't" situation. I'm going to push lynches that I think are the best lynches for the day regardless of who is reading me how. If you think that I'm scum, me getting something going of course looks like I'm pushing a counterwagon but that's a problem on your end, not mine.

There are people pushing me because I'm only doing shit when pressured which is another fucked if I do fucked if I don't. I was busy. This is reflected in my on-site activity. When I came back, people were pushing me. Do you think I'm just going to lay down and die because people are pushing me? Do you think that I'm not going to scumhunt just because people are pushing me? In general, I produce when I can. I don't when I can't.

[The Ascended Masters]

"no one can explain why NOS is town thus its a good wagon"

-Nacho 2016

It's a point towards it being a good wagon, yes. No one explicitly townreading means that Nos hasn't done anything that townies are willing to stand behind and go "yes, that looks town". They haven't been just flat not been here (which would actually be null), they keep posting in this game enough to not be prodded in a 48-hour window and what they've decided to do with their time is ask useless questions and drift. I'm sure your implicit rebuttal was something along the lines of "that means scum aren't calling their buddy town and so mislynch!" but scum don't stand by their useless lurkshit buddies as often as you think they do because it's a bad move to stick your neck out for someone who is going to die eventually.

[The Ascended Masters]

Hi. Where the heck did this nosterafu wagon come from?

Who do you think is a better lynch between me and Nosferatu? Why?

Probably you. It's pretty obvious that nosterafu's wagon is mostly comprised of scum. The wagon fell out of nowhere and got 9 votes in like 5 minutes. Nobody has even provided a case on him yet. Everyone is just like "he hasn't done much so let's lynch him". I don't know if nos is actually scum and the people on his wagon are from another faction or if he's a mislynch, but I'm just not comfortable with with quickly that all came together. You're a better lynch because you're the only other option

It's obvious that Nosferatu's wagon is mostly composed of scum? Why? Why did the scum faction pop up and push through a third wagon when you were in the lead when I started pushing Nos and was the only real alternative wagon to me?

The case on him is not "he hasn't done much, let's lynch him" - the case on him is that he hasn't done

anything

, and when he does pop up the only thing he's doing is making half-assed attempts to make it look like he's kind of doing something (example: 2170. why would a townie who didn't give a shit about the game ask this question? if he was interested in it where's the followup where's the purpose? or here. why would he ask one person's reasons for voting a wagon that was already dead? why not ask why people are voting you (lead wagon he happens to be pushing along).

And hell, if you care about the case on him lacking, what are the good elements of the case against me? Who gave the case on me that you liked?

[The Ascended Masters]

just mqke content bro.

stop igniring people who are vocally calking you oyt. yoyr fluffers are wrong

Tbf tam this should be addressed 4 srs

What have I not addressed?

There are people who are voting me because I strongmanned a lynch. I said in my second post that I was strongmanning lynches this game and I explained why; if people have a problem with that, then they have a problem with my playstyle and there's absolutely nothing I can do about that. Anyone who has played with me more than a couple of days knows that I strongman lynches when I play games; I make sure that my voice is heard and I push hard to get what I want.

There are people voting me because I'm "not scumhunting", but that's not true either - just because I have not extensively cased my scumreads and wrote novels and novels on them doesn't mean that I'm scumhunting; if anyone is looking for an in depth read anywhere, then all they have to do is ask; it's not like I'm refusing to give reads everywhere and it's not like everyone has commented on everyone in the entire playerlist because it's not necessary in a game as big as this one.

There's Cakez pushing me because "I've never been prodded before" - this is bullshit, this is wrong (I got prodded plenty in Quolls Mafia in Mini Normal, I got replaced in Light & Darkness). There are people pushing me because I'm lurking - lurking is not alignment indicative for me, it's life-indicative. I'm sure that no one would take my word for it (nor should they), but it doesn't really make sense to push someone with ~200 posts as for lurking; it's just holding me up to an unreasonable standard that isn't reflected in my meta.

There are people pushing me because I'm pushing an easy lynch to counterwagon my own - this is a "fucked if I do, fucked if I don't" situation. I'm going to push lynches that I think are the best lynches for the day regardless of who is reading me how. If you think that I'm scum, me getting something going of course looks like I'm pushing a counterwagon but that's a problem on your end, not mine.

There are people pushing me because I'm only doing shit when pressured which is another fucked if I do fucked if I don't. I was busy. This is reflected in my on-site activity. When I came back, people were pushing me. Do you think I'm just going to lay down and die because people are pushing me? Do you think that I'm not going to scumhunt just because people are pushing me? In general, I produce when I can. I don't when I can't.

Pisskop don't say that I'm ignoring you when there's a response to you on the same page.

[The Ascended Masters]

If he's not meeting the standards, cock the hammer.


I do townread nos. mostly for meta, and in part for when we talked earlier.

So when Nos went "yo pisskop could be scum" then backtracked it and sheeped you immediately after you found that town... why?
Why is Nos town due to meta?

I find it funny that you use "if he's not meeting the standards, cock the hammer" as a reason to lynch me over Nos - how is Nos meeting your standards? How am I not meeting your standards?

[The Ascended Masters]

Rach, what reads do you want from me?

[The Ascended Masters]

Nacho quite literally

only came to play

after his wagon took up hold and

only pushed a target

after his ass was plopped into the spotlight.

thatd be shady from every player in the game, but for some magical reason its not something you find suspicious when nacho does it?

A wagon built up on me when I was gone.
When I returned, was I supposed to not do shit? When you're being wagoned, don't you push a counterwagon?
It's not like I was lurking yesterday when it was just Cakez pushing me, and it's not like I've been some skating useless fuck that only pops up when my name is mentioned.

[The Ascended Masters]

Youre being defensive instead of just doing what people are asking of you.

drop content, give reads, when day 5 comes and we dont know what your reads were today theres going to be issues.

you just accused me of ignoring the case against me
i address the case against me and then you say I'm being "defensive"

[The Ascended Masters]

I'm not going to dance for you, pisskop. I'm going to play my game.

[The Ascended Masters]

I trust I can read nos. I dont trust you.

but to answer why I think nos is more town that not -Nos said he wasnt going to read, nos has made no pretensions about pretending to read or promising to read, and nos had a very upfront dealing with me when we talked. He didnt avoid what a a serious request guises as a jestful prod and his proddodges have been platyful.


In short, his meta agrees with him being town, his attiuide is town, and his reaction to your shotfest is town.

Who cares about what he said he was going to do? You don't have to read closely to form reads and push for something; Cerb has done a minimal amount of reading and yet he's managed to produce more than half of the game. In Street Fighter Mafia when he also didn't read or do shit and people got on his case about not posting, he pointed out that he had two scumreads that he'd developed and was working on a third; when he was pushed for not doing shit here, his response was "why are people pushing me I said I wasn't going to read???".

This was your upfront dealing with him:
Nos: "PK are you scum?"
Pisskop: "Really bro? Vote Shrub with me."
Nos: "Are you telling me to vote Shrub with you?"
Pisskop: "Yes. Did you see Shrub's play?"
Nos: "Nah bro. Nah. Vote: Skrub"

How the fuck is this an "upfront response" deserving of a townread?

[The Ascended Masters]

The shift onto Nosferatu isn't town-driven. TAM's vote there is hypocritical and self-serving, just look at it compared to his previous reluctance to vote his rival wagon. We're starting to connect the dots, boys and girls.

I didn't vote my rival wagon because I was townreading my rival wagon.
What on earth are you going on about with hypocritical? It's self-serving, yes, but any wagon that a person pushes when they're being ran up is self-serving; nothing I can do to avoid that is roll over and die and that isn't happening.

[The Ascended Masters]

You play your games and Ill be right here getting your roped for it.

Is there a reason why you still haven't addressed my response to you?
You said that I was ignoring you, I responded, you have no interest in the answer? Why'd you want it in the first place?

[The Ascended Masters]

how the fuck is this flail from you deserving of a townread

well that's not answering a question

[The Ascended Masters]

If nos was scum why wouldnt he have pushed his vote on me harder. why wouldnt he have ignored me (LIKE YOU) and why would he have voted skrub

Pushing their vote on you harder would have been work. I don't think scum!Nos is willing to put in work this game.
Voting Skrub's an easy place to put his vote since you asked so nicely. If you ignored him, then you would keep asking him why he wasn't voting Skrub and then that would have been more work for the scum!Nos who is allergic to it.

[The Ascended Masters]

The shift onto Nosferatu isn't town-driven. TAM's vote there is hypocritical and self-serving, just look at it compared to his previous reluctance to vote his rival wagon. We're starting to connect the dots, boys and girls.

I didn't vote my rival wagon because I was townreading my rival wagon.
What on earth are you going on about with hypocritical? It's self-serving, yes, but any wagon that a person pushes when they're being ran up is self-serving; nothing I can do to avoid that is roll over and die and that isn't happening.

Nosferatu didn't do anything scummy, he's just a variable we can remove to help progress the game. Skrub was scummy at the time, you could have townread him if you wanted to, but you're offering Nos as the best lynch we can do today isn't something I'll buy from town you.

I'm offering Nos as the lynch I want today.
I think that he's more likely scum than town.
I think that people are pushing back against the lynch for dumb reasons that they aren't willing to stand behind like "Nos sheeped me! Why would he do that as scum?"

[The Ascended Masters]

I hate when people make sappy appeals to others in games to stay afloat instead of just making good content. You dont need to be active to make content. You need to interact with people in ways that dont further your own survival or obvious cause.

I haven't been "making appeals".
Everything that I do in this game will be taken in the light of furthering my own survival as long as there's a wagon on me; you realize that, right?