Micro 651: Worst (Role) Idea(s) Mafia 2 (Fin - Town Win!)

[Jaack]

VOTE: +__+
Because I don't want to have to keep copy-pasting this junk all game.

[Jaack]

Whoa, this maru wagon is moving way too fast for me.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: TierShift

[Jaack]

Actually, it might be good to quickwagon in RVS
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Maruchan

[Jaack]

Actually, I'm having some voters remorse. I've been moving to fast
UNVOTE:

[Jaack]

VOTE: Skrub

Ha ha! You fell for my reaction test!

[Jaack]

Jaack are you required to change your vote with every post?

D

uh, I don't have such a posting restriction

E

ventually this will all be clear.

A

ctually I can't claim much about my role other

T

han a few things

H

ell, now is as good of time as any

M

y role pm says I am town, also

I

am as follows:

L

ynchproof Doctor PGO

L

ol, if you are a doctor, you should counterclaim me

E

h, maybe this was a bad idea

R

etraction: I am not a lynchproof doctor PGO

[Jaack]

For some reason my gut says you might be a Death Miller, but a search of the

worst role ideas

thread turns up zero death millers with role claim restrictions.

Is this rolefishing scum?

---
Actually, leaning towards this slot being town. Good-ish questions so far.

I didn't like 14 from Vedith all that much.
VOTE: Vedith

[Jaack]

@Jaack

- I know nothing about my role except that than I'm town. If I am able to determine any powers

you

have, I will learn more about my own role. I do not need to know your role, just your abilities. However, if you claim, a random town-aligned player will be killed. I do not know your alignment, but I do know one more thing about your role that I'm not revealing until and unless it needs to be said. You may want to clarify with our mod if the random town kill happens with a role claim, or if it applies to any claim about your abilities and/or actions.

I have nothing that I am able to claim.

[Jaack]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: TierShift

[Jaack]

I generally agree with the TierShift wagon
UNVOTE:
VOTE: TierShift

[Jaack]

oh no I accidentally quickhammered

[Jaack]

AHH WHY ARE YOU SCUMREADING ME OHMYGEE OHMYGEE OHMYGEE

[Jaack]

I can't. Sorry!

How exactly, if at all, is your vote restricted?

[Jaack]

Weird. I wonder if he can't tell his abilities or he dies. Might be worth it depending on what (ugh, I'm typing all my responses on a windows phone and I can't find the plus signs and underscores), depending on what plus sign underscore plus sign finds out about his own abilities.

That is of course unless he's scum.

I'm happy to vote tier, but I need to know soon if you want me to vote.

Oh woe is me, golly, why is everyone scumreading me I know I'm acting scummy but Jesus H Christ in a chicken basket, I always act this way as town see I'm confirmed town now.

Anyways, to clarify, my role PM forbids me to claim my role, but I also received a seperate message that also advises me against claiming my role.

[Jaack]

Sorry, maybe i wasnt clear. Actually I was thinking more along the if pup ( forgive me when I'm back on my computer I will use ur real name) was scum, we wouldn't want you to reveal ur abilities and give him some kind of power.

Altho, he's not asking your role, just your ability. Do you have restrictions on revealing that?

I have nothing that I can reveal

[Jaack]

Also, there are two underscores in my name. Not three. In my country it is a great sign of disrespect to use the improper number of underscores in someone's name. I know, I know... +___+ is a very common name, but my mother and two fathers named me +__+, not +___+. This has provided me with a great deal of embarrassment through the years, particularly in grade school when the teacher took role at the start of class. The teacher would say, "+___+" and I thought she was talking about someone else, so I stayed silent. She would say it again, "+___+!". By the time I realized she was talking about ME, I would be too embarrassed to speak up! There was usually a kid who would have known me from the year before who would set the teacher straight. One kid named <|> (I'll never forget his name because I envied his lack of underscores), made a big deal about it at the start of year 4. <|> told Mr. {%_%} that there were only two underscores in my name. The other kids didn't believe him, but Mr. {%_%} did. In fact, it was pretty cool, and it really meant a lot to me, when on the second day of school, I came into Mr. {%_%}'s class early and I saw <|> there with my mom and my two dads. And before I could even say anything... It makes me kinda tear up a little bit just thinking about it... Mr. {%_%} rose from his seat behind his desk, cleared his throat, and said, "+__+, ignore the haters. Tier, Why don't you just fullclaim now and let us decide if its better to lynch you day 1 or 2?" A couple years later we found out that Mr. {%_%} was a cat hoarder and that changed how much weight I gave to his words of wisdom. But the cat obsession makes a whole lotta sense if you think about it.

I can understand where you're coming from. My parents were surprised when I sprouted that second a. While it wasn't always easy dealing with the powerful "Anti-Double Leter Gang" at my elementary school, I think I'm a better person because of the trials I faced as a child.

[Jaack]

On the one hand, some people make good points in favor of lynching tiershift. On the other hand some people make good points against lynching tiershift. Therefore, I will go with whatever the popular opinion as expressed in the thread is. But whatever the result is, don't blame me. But I think the best choice is to lynch tiershift afther we discuss things that aren't tiershift for a while.

[Jaack]

I think Skrub is scum. Discuss.

[Jaack]

This kind of sounds like the mindset of scum, but scum wouldn't have any reason to announce that they'll just vote for whoever everyone else votes for. So I guess I have a town lean on you right now.

This is (one reason) why Skrub is scum. He says he townreads me, but only points out something I did that he believes looks somewhat scummy.

Also note that this is Skrub's first opinion on like actual stuff. Prior to this he had his vote planted on maruchan, which considering maruchan's claimed unlynchability is just like having no vote anywhere. And then immediatly following this he says:

I wat to move my vote, but the tier wagon seems sketchy to me. I guess I should reread everything and see if anything stands out to me

"I don't like the lead wagon, but I don't have any alternatives. Better put off offering anything for a while!"

It looks like someone who knows their vote is bad but doesn't want to commit to anything else.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Skrub

Note that this doesn't mean I'm uninterested in a TierShift lynch, but this looks like a fun vote for now.

[Jaack]

So yeah, I'm not sure if anyone noticed, but light forgot to vote and is now counted as voting herself. I guess that sort of confirms her post restriction.
Vedith is the towniest thing here, aside from me obviously since I'm conftown. +__+ is probtown too. At least two town in {Ari, light, vax}. Everyone else {maruchan, skrub, tier} is in the needs to die asap category. At this point I kinda want to lynch Skrub over Tier because there's a chance Tier is telling the truth but more importantly, I kinda wanna see what happens if we live Tier alive. That being said, I would gladly participate in a Tier lynch if no one else wants to lynch Skrub.

@+__+: Are we role buddies now? Because this will be the best game ever if we are.

[Jaack]

@jaack Can you go further in depth with explaining your reads?

There's not much else to explain. I've already stated my case as to why you are scummy. Maru and Tier have self confirmed their own scum nature. Vedith is ridiculously obviously town. I have reasons to believe +__+ is town that I can't get much into, but he's also independently the rather townie. Setup says there must be at least 5 town, so two of the remaining three are required to be town. In order of likelyhood, I'd say Light is probtown, Ari is reasonablely town and Vax is null. But that's kind of just off of memory.

@Vedith - We lynch Tier today and skrub tomorrow, sound good?

[Jaack]

Let's roll then

UNVOTE:
VOTE: TierShift

[Jaack]

That's wasn't really a case though. Like at all. You gave a weak reason for scum reading me and it didn't even make sense because you had done the exact same thing right before that. I asked you to explain your reads more in depth and you haven't done that either. Why is light probtown? Why is Ari reasonably town? And why is vax null? I can understand why you're suspicious of tier and Mary but how have they "self confirmed their scum nature"?

The {light, ari, vax} reads were just from gut and memory. I've kind of felt light to be townie whenever she's posted, ari too, but less so, and I have very little memory of vax in this game, but I don't remember anything that stood out as very scummy. A quick review of their isos doesn't change any of my previous opinions on them significantly, but I'll try to add a little more.

You're case on light is pretty weak. It seems to boil down to light wanting to lynch tier, which is a rather common opinion among people. Oh and that she forgot her posting restriction, but her restriction was actually confirmed when in the next vote count she was voting for herself. I mean there isn't a lot there, but what is there seems town.

Ari I guess could be a SK who want to believe Tier and join the cool town people, but I don't think he would be as up front about his desire to keep tier alive because having a town SK would be cool, if he were in fact the SK.

Vax is kind of just there.

Tier and Maru have both claimed to be non-town. If they aren't town, my win condition requires them to be dead. Therefore, they are some sort of scum (whether mafia or anti-town third party).

As for you, you keep saying that I'm scumreading you for doing the same thing as me, but I honestly don't know which post of mine you are refering to. If 146 and 149 are the two posts you are comparing, there's a whole world of difference between them. While I did the waffling thing in my post, I did give a clear side I was on, which was lynching tier. You just said you were going to reread and see what came up with. Oh, and you said that my post came from the mindset of scum, but because I was so blatant about it I wasn't scum. Okay, fair enough. But then why would you make a post you yourself describe as similar literally seconds after that. Did your post come from the mindset of scum?

Sorry if this was a rambling wreck but whatever.

[Jaack]

@+__+: Are we role buddies now? Because this will be the best game ever if we are.

What is a role buddy?

I was wondering if you had figured out my role and/or your role.

[Jaack]

Aww man, I was hoping to congratulate the doctor on a great save...

Since we have two unaligned non-towns flipped and a confirmed serial killer lurking the following are possibilities:

4 town, 1 sk, 1 other thing that needs rope
5 town, 1 sk
Some bs where there is no sk but there's a role that announces the existence of a sk for the lols.

No analysis in this post, just some information.

[Jaack]

Skrub is still probably scum and there's a pretty solid chance that Vax is as well, although that's partly PoE.

I think that Skrub was fishing for a mislynch wagon yesterday with his light vote yesterday and his Vax vote here. Both times it seems more like he's trying to divert attention from the favored wagon at the time rather than, you know, loking for scum.

My random totally made up percentages would be something like

Skrub: 80% scum
Vax: 45% scum
Ari: 15% scum
light: 10% scum
Vedith: 0% scum
Jaack: 0% scum, but a significantly smaller 0% than vedith's 0%.

That being said this game is fun so I'm not going to vote skrub just yet. Also its like 2 hours into the day.

[Jaack]

I thought that light and tier were partners yesterday because light was saying tier seemed like scum but wasn't pushing him at all or asking him any questions. It looked like he was trying to distance his buddy. But tier flipped town, so that theory was obviously off.

1. Tier did not flip town.
2. This is also not very believable. You said you didn't understand a tier lynch (ie were against it) in 171. This is not the only instance of you arguing aginst a Tier lynch, but its the one that comes most immediately before you voted light in 184. So, for your statement to be accurate, you had to have mentally done a complete 180 somewhere in that 13 posts.

Here is the one post that Tier made in that period:

Tierce

u wot m8

What about this post made you shift from not wanting to lynch Tier to believing he was scum (but prefering to lynch light based on her connections to him)?

Your reasoning looks like it was made up after-the-fact.

[Jaack]

Yeah, I've read your case on light, and found it to be meh.

What I am far more interested is in your more recent (237) claim that you were reading light and tier as partners D1. I don't find that this fits your play at all D1 as, until your quickhammer, you were largely against a tier lynch.

[Jaack]

And I'm saying you're explination stinks and sounds like you made up it to explain your actions at the end of D1.

[Jaack]

I don't think the explination you've offered adds up with your actions, and thus, I continue to believe you are scum. The only thing I've asked of you is to explain how you went from strongly against a tier lynch to hammering out of the blue. I don't buy the explinations you've offered.

I'm not brushing aside what you are saying, I'm am judging it to be scum content.

[Jaack]

It's the truth, therefore it adds up. It doesn't matter if you believe me or not, the fact still remains that I haven't lied about anything. Instead of wasting everyone's time by just saying "no, you're scum" any time I post anything, you should focus your attention on the people who are actually suspicious like vax.

I'm not just saying 'no your scum'. I pointed out the inconsistencies in your play. Just because you claim your explainations are true does not make them so.

Furthermore, I'm not interested in pursuing vax at this time. You are my top priority. If you want to make a case on vax, I'm willing to read and evaluate, but it's not my job to focus on who you say look's scummy.

[Jaack]

You didn't point out any inconsistencies. You said that I defended tier earlier on and voted him at the end of the day so I must be scum. The way you act makes it seem as if you don't have static reads then you're scum. It doesn't make sense. I know that you're saying that you don't believe the reasons I gave for changing my mind about him, but you haven't really given me a chance at all throughout the game. Like originally you voted me because I said I wasn't sure who to vote. It feels like you're looking for any excuse to vote for me.

The inconsistency isn't because you voted tier at the end of the day. The issue is that you claim that your suspicion of light D1 was due to her connections to tier. Here is the order of event I see.

1. You re-affirm your belief that tier is not a worthy lynch choice in 171.
2. You vote light and make your case against light alone in 184 and 185. While you do allude to a connection to tier in your light case, you spend more time on light's connections with maruchan. There is very little to indicate your reading of tier has shifted.
3. Until you hammer, you don't do anything to indicate your reading of tier has changed.
4. At the beginning of today you claim you thought that tier and light were partners in 237.

Your play at the end of D1 does not convince me of the reasons you've given for it D2. However, your reason you give both excuse you for your sudden shift on tier and subsequent quickhammer and also to allow you to abandon your light case that was going nowhere.

I think if your reads on tier and light had actually been what you claim them to have been, you would have indicated the connection D1.

All in all, this is one big mess of WIFlailingAtE<InsertBuzzwordHere>.

This is the thing with Skrub. As scum/sk he gains nothing by wanting to keep Tier alive, not even town cred. The focus on Skrub just seems easy.
If he was scum he would have been all over the Tier lynch from the start.
If he was sk he would have taken the lynch just to take the idea of him being sk away.
I don't think that he should be lynched on the Tier voting reason.

But what if skrub wants us to believe that no SK would ever go against a lynch of a player who wanted to team up with them because he is in fact the SK? But what if you're the SK trying to make us believe that no sk would avoid the tier wagon so that way no one points at you as a possible sk because you included yourself in the pool of sk candidates? But what if I'm the SK trying to muddy up the waters as to who is the SK? But what if tier himself was the SK trying to make us believe that wasn't. But what if Davsto is the SK, trying to make us believe that one of us is in fact the SK?

Makes you think. Except I can't be the SK because I'm obvconftown and the nks don't make any sense from me as a sk, obviously.

Other than that, I do agree that this Skrub lynch might be coming together a little too easily. At the same time, if there are two scum remaining, it doesn't appear that they are in cahoots. If there are two scum remaining, the non-Skrub scum would have clear incentive to go after Skrub whether he was scum or town. That probably excludes ari as a candidate for scum for the time being.

[Jaack]

I know that this sounds really convenient, but I was writing out a post about why I thought tier and light were partners and then the day ended right before I could post it

I might be more willing to believe this if you hadn't been the one to end the day...

[Jaack]

Sorry for actively lurking so much, but the general state of the game was beneficial to my liking and I do not wish for it to change so I'm making a purely fluff post so that way people will see I am here and hopefully add more commentary and put their necks out on the line.

That being said, I'm going to make sure that this post is relatively long and contains a bit of content so as to not get accused of fluff posting.

Confirming that all my reads are still the same.

[Jaack]

While I am not currently voting for Skrub, you can count my vote there for the time being. I like the fact that Skrub is the most likely lynch. I really have nothing else that I feel the need to bring up right now. If you wanna talk about something other than Skrub, then find something worht talking about, but I got nothing.

That being said, I am the alpha and omega of towniness, and if you can find one lick of scum motivation from my posts it will be the greatest historical discovery since the Rosetta Stone. I'm so town, Thornton Wilder won a Pulitzer Prize for writing a play about my performance in this game.

[Jaack]

You could argue that you refusing to even attempt to give me the benefit of the doubt and pushing me for weak reasons could be scum motivated. Looks like there's no Pulitzer in your future.

I've given your case consideration and come to the conclusion that you are scum.

I don't know why you're making a huge deal out of my scum read on you when vax and light both are voting you and vedith has suspicion of you as well.

I also think you misunderstand. The pulitzer has already been awarded.

[Jaack]

Since we have two unaligned non-towns flipped and a confirmed serial killer lurking the following are possibilities:

4 town, 1 sk, 1 other thing that needs rope
5 town, 1 sk
Some bs where there is no sk but there's a role that announces the existence of a sk for the lols.

No analysis in this post, just some information.

Was re-reading and I saw this post, surely option two would mean there is no mafia team? Am I wrong in thinking there has to be a mafia team in order for scum hunting/associative tells to be relevant?

You can scum-hunt for third parties since they do anti-town things just like scum. You can't look for partner tells, but that's pretty irrelevant since none of the flipped scum have partners.

[Jaack]

@Vedith - Do you have a scumcase on either light or vax, or is it mostly PoE?

Look at me being useful and protown with questions and stuff

[Jaack]

Yeah, Ari is pretty town. Are you townreading Skrub due to everyone jumping onto his wagon, or are there elements of his play that you find to be towny?

I might be able to come around on a vax lynch, but I want Skrub to make a more substantial case about vax before I commit to anything

[Jaack]

Light is third most likely scum after vax and skrub but its a distant third. I'm not that interested in lynching light today.

[Jaack]

I agree with the lack of a need to lynch Ari, since his vote restriction can be made to work.

Oh look, I'm out of time right now... Guess I can't comment on the other stuff that's happening until I come back (and see other people commenting on it)

[Jaack]

To me the scum pool can only be Skrub, light, and possibly jack in that specific order. I think everyone else is conf town (as long as the night goes correctly.)
I know you guys all think jaack is def town, but I can't rule him out as I can Ari and Vedith.

THAT'S 100% USDA PRIME TOWN YOU'RE TALKING TO! YOU'D BETTER WATCH YOUR BACK OR ELSE. BUT FIRST A READING FROM THE SCRIPTURES

The first Jaack sounded his trumpet, and there followed hail and fire mingled with vaxkiller's blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.
And the second Jaack sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became vaxkiller's blood; And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.
And the third Jaack sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a light_ganski, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many scum died of the waters, because they were made bitter.
And the fourth Jaack sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise. And I beheld, and heard a Jaack flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three Jaacks, which are yet to sound!
And the fifth Jaack sounded, and I saw Aristophanes fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither an tree, neither any deku Skrub; but only those men which have not the seal of Davsto in their foreheads. And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment

was

as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
And the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four Jaacks which are bound in the great river Vedith. And the four Jaacks were loosed, which were prepard for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of vaxkiller. And the rest of the scum which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk. Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their roleblocks, nor of their fornication, nor of their strongmanning.
And the seventh Jaack sounded; and there were great voices in the dead thread, saying, The towns of this world are become

the towns

of our Mod, and he shall reign for ever and ever.

DAYVIG: VAXKILLER

----
Okay, before we do anything rash, let's discuss some important stuff:

@Vedith - If there is scum outside {vax, light} who is most likely
@Ari - same question

[Jaack]

How can dayvigs be real if our eyes aren't real?

[Jaack]

Oh noes he was town

Govern: Vaxkiller

All better now

[Jaack]

Hmmm... I'm not sure whether to townread, scumread, or lolread vax for his reaction to things. That being said, it muddles things up.

I might wanna take a second look at light.

We might be able to force a win - with Vedith's nk we can kill all of {skrub, vax, light} before N3.

This is some scenario work here:

Spoiler: One Scum Left

Lynch {skrub, vax, light}

[Jaack]

well that was not what i meant to do at all

[Jaack]

It's actually more straightforward than I thought
One Scum Left:
This is a pretty much confirmed win barring shenanigans. We lynch one today. If town, Vedith nks a second one. If the game still isn't over, we will have at least two of {jaack, Vedith, Ari} in lylo vs whichever of them is left. We should be able to win this

Two scum left, unaligned:
This basically works out the same way, except, we can't win on a good lynch today.

Scum team of two left:
This is only an issue if we lynch the town in {skrub, light, vax} AND the scumteam have someway to shut down Vedith's nk.

I have some thoughts on how to deal with this but one question first
@Vedith - To what extent are you BP?

[Jaack]

@Vedith - actually on second thought, don't tell me the extend of your bp, so as not to give scum too much info.

[Jaack]

@Jaack - I'm not really a fan of killing if we mis lynch as I don't want to rule out a team of 2 scum yet.

I think you'll need to kill in that situation now that I'm thinking about it...

If we mislynch, it'll be 3t vs 2s going into night. Scum shoots me or ari and its 2v2, which I think would be game over.

[Jaack]

Thank god. They're finally moving onto another wagon lol. We've got this now

That was just a joke lol, ignore that

@Jaack What are your thoughts on this? (Jaack only please)

It's probably nothing.

It could be a scumslip. It could be you trying to make it out as a scumslip. Woooo WIFOM spooooky oooooo

At this point I'm pretty comfortable with lynching any of skrub, light, or vax. Probably in that order I guess.

[Jaack]

If that's true then why aren't you trying to get me lynched anymore?

So when I'm focusing my efforts on you, you say I'm not considering other options to my detriment. Now when I look at other players, I'm not trying to get you lynched?

To answer your question, I don't see the point in prattlIing further about your scumminess. Either vedith or ari will change their mind and we lynch you, or they wont, and we'll lynch someone else whose lynch is okay with me.

[Jaack]

How is questioning it trying to make it look like a scum slip?

At the end of the day, there's no problem questioning it. I don't have concern on the comment itself, I make those comments here and there.
What I didn't like was the explanation within 1min of making the comment. It seemed more of a panic rather than a stating the obvious.

I don't think such an interpretation as the one you offer is incorrect per se, but I'm not quite sure if it is accurate under these circumstances.

It could be panicking scum. It could be innocuous. But overall, it does little to change my opinion there.

@skrub, if you want me to try and lynch you, I'll be happy to oblige.

[Jaack]

My role was that I had to post like scum... of course I got universally townread.

Fun game, kudos to all involved.

[Jaack]

Yeah scum was in a pretty unwinnable situation. Y'all would have had to get skrub lynched, hoped vedith shot vax and then hope that Vedith would vote. whichever of me or ari left alive.

But light would have all of one post to convince him. After that, to post again she would have to either vote herself or Vedith, the latter allowing me or ari to self confirm as town.

Add me to the pile of would play again.