Wingdings

This forum is for discussion related to the game.
User avatar
Cheery Dog
Cheery Dog
Kayak
User avatar
User avatar
Cheery Dog
Kayak
Kayak
Posts: 8035
Joined: June 30, 2012
Location: OMG BALL!

Post Post #25 (ISO) » Sun Sep 25, 2016 7:32 pm

Post by Cheery Dog »

I still don't think that works. (that sentence structure is only useful on mafblack for this purpose)

Well then we can ban it with the Red Text of Truth ruling.
Holder of the Longest Continuous Weekly Mafiascum Post Record. 1 July 2012 - 16 Feb 2023
*It may be held by someone else if you discount the major downtime in 2012 and 2014, I'm not doing the research.
User avatar
House
House
Survivor
User avatar
User avatar
House
Survivor
Survivor
Posts: 19605
Joined: September 5, 2014
Location: Home of Top Gun

Post Post #26 (ISO) » Sun Sep 25, 2016 8:30 pm

Post by House »

In post 25, Cheery Dog wrote:
I still don't think that works. (that sentence structure is only useful on mafblack for this purpose)

Well then we can ban it with the Red Text of Truth ruling.
That's why I use green text.
The apology that resulted in my indefinite ban:

https://tinyimg.io/i/ZX5Yjhw.png
User avatar
iraonavp
iraonavp
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
iraonavp
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 3800
Joined: December 1, 2015

Post Post #27 (ISO) » Sun Sep 25, 2016 10:15 pm

Post by iraonavp »

It's because that is a slippery slope of encoding a final message using your role name as a key.
User avatar
House
House
Survivor
User avatar
User avatar
House
Survivor
Survivor
Posts: 19605
Joined: September 5, 2014
Location: Home of Top Gun

Post Post #28 (ISO) » Sun Sep 25, 2016 10:16 pm

Post by House »

In post 27, iraonavp wrote:It's because that is a slippery slope of encoding a final message using your role name as a key.
It has nothing to do with encoding, iron.
The apology that resulted in my indefinite ban:

https://tinyimg.io/i/ZX5Yjhw.png
User avatar
iraonavp
iraonavp
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
iraonavp
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 3800
Joined: December 1, 2015

Post Post #29 (ISO) » Sun Sep 25, 2016 10:18 pm

Post by iraonavp »

Well, if that was allowed you could invent your own Housedings font, and use it instead to an unconstitutional advantage...
User avatar
iraonavp
iraonavp
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
iraonavp
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 3800
Joined: December 1, 2015

Post Post #30 (ISO) » Sun Sep 25, 2016 10:20 pm

Post by iraonavp »

Let's say I am you, and I don't know how to use Wingdings... Is it fair that I can't read your posts? No, now it is a game of fonts instead of a game of mafia...
User avatar
House
House
Survivor
User avatar
User avatar
House
Survivor
Survivor
Posts: 19605
Joined: September 5, 2014
Location: Home of Top Gun

Post Post #31 (ISO) » Sun Sep 25, 2016 10:32 pm

Post by House »

In post 29, iraonavp wrote:Well, if that was allowed you could invent your own Housedings font, and use it instead to an unconstitutional advantage...
Actually, I couldn't.
The apology that resulted in my indefinite ban:

https://tinyimg.io/i/ZX5Yjhw.png
User avatar
Ircher
Ircher
He / Him / His
What A Grand Idea
User avatar
User avatar
Ircher
He / Him / His
What A Grand Idea
What A Grand Idea
Posts: 15170
Joined: November 9, 2015
Pronoun: He / Him / His
Location: CST/CDT

Post Post #32 (ISO) » Mon Sep 26, 2016 3:07 am

Post by Ircher »

In post 30, iraonavp wrote:Let's say I am you, and I don't know how to use Wingdings... Is it fair that I can't read your posts? No, now it is a game of fonts instead of a game of mafia...
This 100%.
lBreadcrumbing is the only exception to cryptography, and it is well-known and has proper reasoning behind it.
Links: User Page | GTKAS
Do you have questions, ideas, or feedback for the Scummies? Please pm me!
Hosting: The Grand Neighborhood [In Signups: 8/9 ONE MORE!]
User avatar
MagnaofIllusion
MagnaofIllusion
has been killed Night 1
User avatar
User avatar
MagnaofIllusion
has been killed Night 1
has been killed Night 1
Posts: 13964
Joined: February 9, 2010
Location: Assimilating the world ...
Contact:

Post Post #33 (ISO) » Mon Sep 26, 2016 6:53 am

Post by MagnaofIllusion »

Great rule of thumb - if you have to use some other site to translate what you post here on MS then it violates the Cryptography rule.
"I am a leaf on the wind ... watch how I soar!"

Pretty much Geriatric game restricted at this point ... unless there are players I REALLY want to play with.
User avatar
Psyche
Psyche
he/they
Survivor
User avatar
User avatar
Psyche
he/they
Survivor
Survivor
Posts: 10058
Joined: April 28, 2011
Pronoun: he/they

Post Post #34 (ISO) » Mon Sep 26, 2016 6:58 am

Post by Psyche »

cryptography is annoying and unfun
youtube playlist extracter | donbot | game scraper | vca | setupsim | strategist | llm
User avatar
MichelSableheart
MichelSableheart
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
MichelSableheart
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1773
Joined: May 31, 2007
Location: Netherlands

Post Post #35 (ISO) » Mon Sep 26, 2016 8:31 am

Post by MichelSableheart »

TBH, I even ban breadcrumbing in the games I mod.

Basically, if a pair of players doesn't have daytalk, it should be impossible for them to communicate during the day without the other players knowing what is being communicated. The public thread is not the place to exchange private info. Cryptography, invisible text, unreadable fonts and breadcrumbing all allow players to put information in the thread without the other players having clear access to it. They allow players to daytalk who should not have that ability, and are therefore banned in my games.
There is no 'a' in Michel.
User avatar
Gamma Emerald
Gamma Emerald
She/It
Survivor
User avatar
User avatar
Gamma Emerald
She/It
Survivor
Survivor
Posts: 69101
Joined: August 9, 2016
Pronoun: She/It
Location: Hell on Earth (aka Texas)

Post Post #36 (ISO) » Mon Sep 26, 2016 8:53 am

Post by Gamma Emerald »

That's a bit unfair. The point of not having daytalk is so they can't coach, or something. It's not to completely shut off private communication. And even then, what about breadcrumbing as cop or doc?
<Embrace The Void>


My pronouns are she and it, please respect that. I don't mind the occasional slip.
User avatar
Vi
Vi
Professor Paragon
User avatar
User avatar
Vi
Professor Paragon
Professor Paragon
Posts: 11768
Joined: June 29, 2008
Location: GMT-5

Post Post #37 (ISO) » Mon Sep 26, 2016 9:15 am

Post by Vi »

In post 33, MagnaofIllusion wrote:Great rule of thumb - if you have to use some other site to translate what you post here on MS then it violates the Cryptography rule.
This.

This argument has been done before at an even more ludicrous level where Adel offered a plan for everyone to encrypt their contribution to massclaim, and once everyone was done they would all post the key. Concurrently, he tried to start a trend where he would make encrypted posts with his reads and such and offer the key at some convenient time in the future so everyone could marvel at how genuine and necessarily secret those reads had to be.

Without saying these weren't good ideas, the general community response was "plz no" and people amending their rulesets to ban strong cryptography.

Conclusion to another argument had at the same time: you can't actually stop people from breadcrumbing in any enforceable way (i.e. "it's legal if the mod doesn't catch you"??) so etc. It's like saying "you cannot make posts while you're angry, drunk, or insincere; or refer to your previously made posts as such".

Personal gripe: with all of the above said, a mod should be able to recognize lorem ipsum and not care about it.
Everything you say and do matters. People will respond in ways you may never see. May those responses be what you intend.
User avatar
Ümläüt
Ümläüt
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Ümläüt
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1145
Joined: October 26, 2015
Location: Austin, TX

Post Post #38 (ISO) » Mon Sep 26, 2016 9:17 am

Post by Ümläüt »

In post 35, MichelSableheart wrote:TBH, I even ban breadcrumbing in the games I mod.

Basically, if a pair of players doesn't have daytalk, it should be impossible for them to communicate during the day without the other players knowing what is being communicated. The public thread is not the place to exchange private info. Cryptography, invisible text, unreadable fonts and breadcrumbing all allow players to put information in the thread without the other players having clear access to it. They allow players to daytalk who should not have that ability, and are therefore banned in my games.
I wonder how far this goes. What about 'codes' in the most basic sense, e.g. saying in advance in the private thread that "If I call you Michel I'm just acting, but if I call you MS I'm really trying to tell you something"? Is this still against your rules?
“Of course it's my fault. There's no one else here who could be responsible for anything.”
User avatar
Gamma Emerald
Gamma Emerald
She/It
Survivor
User avatar
User avatar
Gamma Emerald
She/It
Survivor
Survivor
Posts: 69101
Joined: August 9, 2016
Pronoun: She/It
Location: Hell on Earth (aka Texas)

Post Post #39 (ISO) » Mon Sep 26, 2016 9:19 am

Post by Gamma Emerald »

That seems to be what he's banning, but breadcrumbing goes beyond happenings in private threads.
<Embrace The Void>


My pronouns are she and it, please respect that. I don't mind the occasional slip.
User avatar
popsofctown
popsofctown
She
Survivor
User avatar
User avatar
popsofctown
She
Survivor
Survivor
Posts: 12356
Joined: September 23, 2008
Pronoun: She

Post Post #40 (ISO) » Mon Sep 26, 2016 10:09 am

Post by popsofctown »

Using wingdings for a post seems kind of like self voting in that it's strictly antitown but so obviously so there's a bit of a loop there. I'm not aware of any benefit a wingdings post contributes that is protown.
"Let us say that you are right and there are two worlds. How much, then, is this 'other world' worth to you? What do you have there that you do not have here? Money? Power? Something worth causing the prince so much pain for?'"
"Well, I..."
"What? Nothing? You would make the prince suffer over... nothing?"
User avatar
MichelSableheart
MichelSableheart
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
MichelSableheart
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1773
Joined: May 31, 2007
Location: Netherlands

Post Post #41 (ISO) » Mon Sep 26, 2016 10:27 am

Post by MichelSableheart »

breadcrumbing is indeed against my ruleset. If you want to claim, do so. If you don't want to claim, don't. But anything in the public thread should be public. I've never seen someone spot a breadcrumb before it was pointed out to them; as such, I don't think it has a place in my games.

Is the rule unenforcable? I don't think so. Sure, I probably won't notice it when someone breadcrumbs, but I definately will notice it when they support their claim by breadcrumbs they made earlier. And it's when they use the hidden information to gain an advantage that I really have a problem with it, so that's early enough to step in.
There is no 'a' in Michel.
User avatar
popsofctown
popsofctown
She
Survivor
User avatar
User avatar
popsofctown
She
Survivor
Survivor
Posts: 12356
Joined: September 23, 2008
Pronoun: She

Post Post #42 (ISO) » Mon Sep 26, 2016 10:39 am

Post by popsofctown »

You could slightly revise over from "breadcrumbs is banned" to "claiming to have breadcrumbs is banned" and then maybe it's enforceable. You could also ban claiming other people's breadcrumbs in thread, like hey look, this guy started each letter of a sentence like so. I don't know if I like all the implications of that though. Picking up on a breadcrumb and not being able to say anything about it would generate false dissonance that frustrates scumhunting (say if you stopped pushing a player and could give no reason why).
I don't see any obvious downside to banning the claiming of your own breadcrumbs though. Hm. I think I kind of like the idea of a ban only on identifying your own breadcrumbs to prove you planned a claim long in advance. Really they aren't even communication when they are used that way, they're like, hard evidence generation. Forcing townies to breadcrumb more opaquely has a risk of scum catching the crumb and shooting them for it.
"Let us say that you are right and there are two worlds. How much, then, is this 'other world' worth to you? What do you have there that you do not have here? Money? Power? Something worth causing the prince so much pain for?'"
"Well, I..."
"What? Nothing? You would make the prince suffer over... nothing?"
User avatar
Gamma Emerald
Gamma Emerald
She/It
Survivor
User avatar
User avatar
Gamma Emerald
She/It
Survivor
Survivor
Posts: 69101
Joined: August 9, 2016
Pronoun: She/It
Location: Hell on Earth (aka Texas)

Post Post #43 (ISO) » Mon Sep 26, 2016 10:40 am

Post by Gamma Emerald »

Well is softclaiming okay? You know, saying you townread or scumread someone heavily when you're cop?
<Embrace The Void>


My pronouns are she and it, please respect that. I don't mind the occasional slip.
User avatar
Untrod Tripod
Untrod Tripod
Fat and Sassy
User avatar
User avatar
Untrod Tripod
Fat and Sassy
Fat and Sassy
Posts: 11652
Joined: September 1, 2003

Post Post #44 (ISO) » Mon Sep 26, 2016 3:26 pm

Post by Untrod Tripod »

As a listmod I rule that it is okay to ban cryptography.

I HAVE SPOKENNNNNNNNNNNNNNN
User avatar
callforjudgement
callforjudgement
Microprocessor
User avatar
User avatar
callforjudgement
Microprocessor
Microprocessor
Posts: 3972
Joined: September 1, 2011

Post Post #45 (ISO) » Mon Sep 26, 2016 4:31 pm

Post by callforjudgement »

There's more than one sort of breadcrumb.

A basic, and very effective breadcrumb, can be "Player X is now my #1 town read." This was dropped by a Cop in day 2 of an old Newbie I played in (I can't remember which offhand), and everyone mostly ignored it at the time. Once the cop flipped, we went back through their posts and realised that it was the cop trying to give a hint as to their investigation. I don't, however, think you can reasonably ban something like that. Does a Cop have to not allow their investigation to affect their play at all?
scum
· scam · seam · team · term · tern · torn ·
town
User avatar
xyzzy
xyzzy
they/them
comical third option
User avatar
User avatar
xyzzy
they/them
comical third option
comical third option
Posts: 4970
Joined: April 19, 2007
Pronoun: they/them
Location: northern VA

Post Post #46 (ISO) » Mon Sep 26, 2016 4:57 pm

Post by xyzzy »

I think anything that players can discern after someone is no longer in the game should be considered absolutely acceptable; there's a big difference between, for instance, saying, "callforjudgement is my #1 town read," and having the first letters of each sentence in a post spell out "cojtown".

also, part of being able to interpret a claim is determining whether the claim is consistent with the things the player has said; there is tremendous value in being able to assess whether someone's claim lines up with the things they've said throughout the game.

I think that acrostic-style breadcrumbs are fine, because once one is revealed, it's very much in the town's power to see whether the same player left any other similar breadcrumbs; it's theoretically possible for scum to breadcrumb multiple fake claims in this way, and it's theoretically possible for town to detect that, and these are both skill-testing concepts. something like an algorithmically encrypted message really isn't skill-testing, because 1)it's blatantly obvious when someone posts an encrypted message, so doing multiple and trying to avoid getting caught isn't feasible, and 2)it isn't possible for town to interpret what the rest of the encrypted information is even if they get one of the decryptions.

basically, I think the litmus test should be this: if scum used a particular tactic to hide information, would the method used to hide that information be one that involved making specific, game affecting choices, and is it feasible for town to correctly interpret whether other hidden information exists and has not yet been revealed and to determine what that information is? note that the former doesn't have a threshold for how much it has to affect the game, and the latter doesn't have a threshold for how feasible it is for town to actually accomplish that.
User avatar
mastin2
mastin2
The Second Coming
User avatar
User avatar
mastin2
The Second Coming
The Second Coming
Posts: 14413
Joined: October 8, 2009
Location: Replacement Alley
Contact:

Post Post #47 (ISO) » Mon Sep 26, 2016 8:24 pm

Post by mastin2 »

Only amateurs can't breadcrumb or false-breadcrumb information as scum.

Similarly, only amateurs need a code to convey results when lacking daytalk. (Tied to the above.)
If the rules ban you from setting up a code to your scumbuddies (which I think is patently ridiculous, the whole idea of an informed minority is that they're fucking
informed
; they have that talk for good reason, but I digress), then you can just as easily convey this information by how you treat the player you were targeting the next day. This can be something as subtle as buddying them if they're a PR and distancing from them if they're a VT, or vice-versa, and the mod would be none the wiser; that's just one obvious way to do it, but there are many more.

I have no problems with posts that spell out, for instance, "MASONS". I've used this before as a mason. (Not that it was needed.) Because there's nothing stopping scum from doing the exact same sort of thing. Which I've done. (Not as a mason, but as other roles, like ascetic. For someone who's done it before as scum, see kuribo.) It holds the exact same risk as both alignments: being discovered at an inopportune moment. It holds the exact same reward as both alignments: the chance to be believed easier. But it's something town and scum can do with equal skill, so it's idiotic to say they shouldn't be able to do it...

...Especially given there's a whole level of subjectivity to it. If I link to a video that features Simon from Firefly, then at a later time claim that was a doctor breadcrumb...who are you to, subjectively, say whether that is or is not a legitimate breadcrumb? Some will believe it, some won't. (Admittedly, there is a gray line. I believe it was Oversoul who used to post things like TTGOXTSV and later claim, "that translates into a strong townread on X because of what Y, flipped scum, did here". But one, he did this as both town AND scum, and two, there was no key he used to prove that's what he meant, only his own word. So, for all we knew, he was making shit up.)

Where is the line drawn?
At things that are literally written into the damn site rules. No trust tells. No outside influences. No BBCode to hide messages. Nothing invisible, usually nothing that is gibberish, and nothing that scum would never do. Which basically translates into...
In post 33, MagnaofIllusion wrote:Great rule of thumb - if you have to use some other site to translate what you post here on MS then it violates the Cryptography rule.
...This. Most of the other stuff is fair game.

When all else fails: be loose about it and don't go into specifics...
but
, include a rule in your rules which punishes loophole exploitation, and if someone tries to push something which isn't okay, point to that rule, disallow it, and if necessary, appropriately punish the asshole who was stupid enough to try and do that.
My academy.
"...You have a blog?!?" (Yes, I do. Click.)
Agnigi
, 13p Mini Theme sequel to Gistou, is in design and could use reviewers!
User avatar
kuribo
kuribo
he/him
Fire and Brimstone
User avatar
User avatar
kuribo
he/him
Fire and Brimstone
Fire and Brimstone
Posts: 15463
Joined: August 21, 2007
Pronoun: he/him
Location: the beach, probably
Contact:

Post Post #48 (ISO) » Tue Sep 27, 2016 6:47 am

Post by kuribo »

In post 41, MichelSableheart wrote:I've never seen someone spot a breadcrumb before it was pointed out to them; as such, I don't think it has a place in my games.
In Graveyard Shift Mafia, one of my scumbuddies noticed the vig's breadcrumb.


I outted him the next day when I was getting lynched.

I mean, the scumteam had already figured it out, so really it was just me telling the town HEY BRIAN SKIES IS THE VIG AND THE SCUMTEAM KNOWS IT
Join me on my quest to play every NES game! Some of them are awful.

Kuribo's read is foolproof: one night he was high on NyQuil, and he's ancestors reveiled Aureal's alignment to him. - Dessew
User avatar
kuribo
kuribo
he/him
Fire and Brimstone
User avatar
User avatar
kuribo
he/him
Fire and Brimstone
Fire and Brimstone
Posts: 15463
Joined: August 21, 2007
Pronoun: he/him
Location: the beach, probably
Contact:

Post Post #49 (ISO) » Tue Sep 27, 2016 6:49 am

Post by kuribo »

In post 47, mastin2 wrote:(Not as a mason, but as other roles, like ascetic. For someone who's done it before as scum, see kuribo.)


for next-level scumplay, breadcrumb several roles in the event you need to re-evaluate your claim later down the line
Join me on my quest to play every NES game! Some of them are awful.

Kuribo's read is foolproof: one night he was high on NyQuil, and he's ancestors reveiled Aureal's alignment to him. - Dessew
Post Reply

Return to “Mafia Discussion”