Mini 515 - The Pine Barrens - Game Over!


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Post Post #225 (ISO) » Thu Oct 25, 2007 4:52 pm

Post by Zakarum »

Elias_the_thief wrote:Zakarum: Do you still agree with the points I made today, or not? And if so, why have you made no serious mention of the possibility of Boo being scum today? If not, what was it that changed you mind?
If your talking about post 167 then yes i do agree with your points. I'm not sure why I haven't brought up Bookitty since the start of this day but it doesn't mean I have forgotten or stopped supporting the idea her and Boggzie are highest on my suspicious list due to the lynching of ryan. My other accusations were just to kinda throw ideas out there.

The only thing different is that I fell more suspicious of Boggzie than of Bookitty. The main reason is for pushing ryan very hard without strong evidence even after Bookitty stated that she got a pm regarding replacing into ryan's game.
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Post Post #226 (ISO) » Thu Oct 25, 2007 5:18 pm

Post by Rishi »

Fourth Vote Count - Day 2


mcpaltp – 2 (TheHermit, Bookitty)
ThAdmiral – 2 (mcpaltp, neko2086)
Bookitty – 1 (Elias_the_thief)

Not voting: Boggzie, ThAdmiral, hasdgfas, Zakarum, opie

10 alive. 6 votes to lynch.
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Post Post #227 (ISO) » Thu Oct 25, 2007 6:27 pm

Post by ThAdmiral »

Some thoughts on the game so far:

Yesterday - this was pretty much dominated by boggzie's accusation and ryan (and to a lesser extent bookitty's) defense. We now know that ryan was town, however I felt there was sufficient reason to vote ryan (both parties agreed that a pm was sent, also ryan was SO defensive its not funny). I probably would have voted him. In any case it was a better case than is normally presented on day 1, which can sometimes just be a shot in the dark on, say, the first person who suggests a no-lynch.
I also didn't like how bookitty said a town ryan would "clear my name", although I think this has already been gone over. Also your setting up of chain lynches ("if ryan is town, i'm definately voting boggzie tomorrow") has also been noted.
Hasdfags voting for boggzie was a little weird, I felt. If I got a pm from someone during the mafia-talking time in a game I was in,
that was unsent before I could read it
, I would definitely go after them. To say that he is making something of nothing is a bit strong. Also you got "good vibes" from bookitty, which strikes me as odd as well.
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Post Post #228 (ISO) » Thu Oct 25, 2007 6:31 pm

Post by ThAdmiral »

Last night: spider jerusalem was killed by the mafia. This is understandable since he had a few good posts. If anything this may incriminate mcaltp as he did mention that he rather liked sj's posts (post 103), but this praise could have easily just been read by the mafia.
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Post Post #229 (ISO) » Thu Oct 25, 2007 6:37 pm

Post by ThAdmiral »

today: Not much has happened today. There has been a general call to get the people who haven't been contributing much (i.e. me) to contribute, which is fair enough.
I am intrigued by the opie-hasdgfas connection, as I am uneasy on both of these two, and am also following elias' attack on bookitty as she is under my suspicion as well.
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Post Post #230 (ISO) » Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:08 pm

Post by Bookitty »

Immediately after Boggzie's allegations:
Bookitty wrote:Keeping in mind that a one-for-one exchange, scum for town, is utterly disastrous for scum (I'm sure you know this), if ryan doesn't come up scum, I'm going to be certain that you are. I'm sure that I won't be alone in this. And no amount of "Oh, I guess I just screwed up, then!" on your part is going to change my mind.
And after some time to think it over:
Bookitty wrote:I don't know who's lying. I don't know what you learn from lynching any of us. I thought at first that if ryan was lynched, and he turned up town, that we'd know Boggzie was guilty, and we would be trading town for scum. I don't think that now, upon reflection, because I believe Boggzie is honest, but wrong. Boggzie believes ryan is scum, but I don't agree with his reasoning. I'd thought ryan was possibly scum for other reasons, but I don't think THIS case makes sense against him.
You posted this:
ThAdmiral wrote:I also didn't like how bookitty said a town ryan would "clear my name", although I think this has already been gone over. Also your setting up of chain lynches ("
if ryan is town, i'm definately voting boggzie tomorrow
") has also been noted.
I never said this. You put it in quotes as if I did, but that's not true. I've put up the relevant quotes. So why imply that I said that by putting it in quotes? It's not even a good fabricated quote, considering that I definitely know how to spell definitely. Anyway, a quick reread of my posts will prove I NEVER said what you quoted me as saying.

unvote; vote ThAdmiral
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Post Post #231 (ISO) » Thu Oct 25, 2007 10:35 pm

Post by ThAdmiral »

I quoted what I felt was the
spirit
of the first of your two highlighted posts.
And even though you later backtracked on this, the fact still remains that at one point you
were
attempting to set up a chain lynch.
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Post Post #232 (ISO) » Thu Oct 25, 2007 10:54 pm

Post by Bookitty »

You cannot quote the "spirit" of anything. Either something is a direct quote, or it is not.

And to fabricate a quote and attribute it to someone else in order to throw suspicion on them can not possibly be construed as pro-Town.
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Post Post #233 (ISO) » Fri Oct 26, 2007 12:40 am

Post by mcpaltp »

"Yeah, false quoting isn't cool."
So there.
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Post Post #234 (ISO) » Fri Oct 26, 2007 3:00 am

Post by Boggzie »

ThAdmiral wrote:I quoted what I felt was the
spirit
of the first of your two highlighted posts.
And even though you later backtracked on this, the fact still remains that at one point you
were
attempting to set up a chain lynch.
The spirit?

I know I'm probably the last person to be tossing accusations around, but, uh - "the spirit"? I haven't played that many games, but I've been in enough to know you can't quote "the spirit" of a post. Either someone said it, or they didn't. Your "quiet time" and this worries me. And frankly, anyone defending me right now, even to me, looks scummy.
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Post Post #235 (ISO) » Fri Oct 26, 2007 4:16 am

Post by mcpaltp »

Boggzie wrote:
ThAdmiral wrote:I quoted what I felt was the
spirit
of the first of your two highlighted posts.
And even though you later backtracked on this, the fact still remains that at one point you
were
attempting to set up a chain lynch.
The spirit?

I know I'm probably the last person to be tossing accusations around, but, uh - "the spirit"? I haven't played that many games, but I've been in enough to know you can't quote "the spirit" of a post. Either someone said it, or they didn't. Your "quiet time" and this worries me. And frankly, anyone defending me right now, even to me, looks scummy.
Considering how well the last time I thought boggzie's arguments were apt went, I don't know if I should say this, but,

I agree, here. I don't like the lurking combined with the whole misquoting thing. I put my vote on as an exploritory measure, and I think I'll keep it on pending more contributions from ThAdmiral.
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Post Post #236 (ISO) » Fri Oct 26, 2007 9:06 pm

Post by ThAdmiral »

I probably shouldn't have put quotes around the comment, but I wanted to make it clear that this is what she was saying in that particular post.
Basically you are attacking me over a grammar issue.
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Post Post #237 (ISO) » Fri Oct 26, 2007 10:24 pm

Post by Bookitty »

ThAdmiral wrote:I probably shouldn't have put quotes around the comment, but
I wanted to make it clear that this is what she was saying
in that particular post.
Basically you are attacking me over a grammar issue.
You wanted to make it clear that I was saying something I did in fact
never
say. That's lying, and lying is not a grammar issue.

The way to make what someone else is saying clear is to actually quote it, or to analyse it without the use of fictitious quotes--not to make up some interpretation and then present it as a quote in order to mislead others.

I think I'm happy with my vote staying right where it is.
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Post Post #238 (ISO) » Sat Oct 27, 2007 3:39 am

Post by opie »

ThAdmiral, I think you are misreading Bookitty's posts and by not quoting them, you are misleading others by misstating them.

I think the post you are refering to is Post 80, when she says:
Bookitty wrote:I am going to ask, though. Are you aware, Boggzie, that if this is just a gambit on your part, you're likely to be lynched tomorrow if you're wrong?
This is not a "If ryan is scum, i'm definately voting boggzie tomorrow" statement. I read it to be a warning that is Boggzie is wrong about this issue he is setting himself up to be a lynch target. Not necessarily by her but the town.

It's something I noted in Post 72:
opie wrote:I'm inclined to believe Boggzie. He's made a pretty bold claim very early. If and when ryan is every lynched and turns out to be townie, any credibility that Boggzie has will go out the window and most likely be the next lynch target himself.
Something that ryan noted in Post 136:
ryan wrote:guarantee you will be lynched after my role is outed
And something that even Boggzie acknowledged in in Post 73:
Boggzie wrote:Even better - making a play like this is suicide if I'm lying.
And he repeated this sentiment in other posts (see Post 105)

Bookitty is not attacking you over a "grammar" issue. She is confronting you because you are mistating her comments and because you are lazy with your posting.
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Post Post #239 (ISO) » Sat Oct 27, 2007 4:49 am

Post by hasdgfas »

ThAdmiral, I have to agree with what everyone else is saying. If you're going to make a statement such as that, you have to be proactive enough to look for the post you're commenting on. Sometimes posts look different when you're actually trying to write about them than when you're thinking about them. I remember a few times when I wanted to write about someone's suspicious post, only to go back and see that it didn't say what I thought it said. Quoting "the spirit" of someone's post doesn't work unless you go back and re-read the post, meaning you might as well just quote the post while you're at it. It just seems kinda... scummy to me when someone acts like that when attacking someone.
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Post Post #240 (ISO) » Sun Oct 28, 2007 10:08 am

Post by neko2086 »

Okedoke, I'm back. I'm going to ask ThAdmiral to please be more careful when using quotes, but I don't think he's purposely trying to cast suspicion anywhere. Rather, I was more surprised by Bookitty's reaction. It didn't take much at all for her to use that as an excuse to vote for him.

Seeing as how he's talking a bit now,
unvote: ThAdmiral
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Post Post #241 (ISO) » Sun Oct 28, 2007 1:56 pm

Post by Bookitty »

neko2086 wrote:Okedoke, I'm back. I'm going to ask ThAdmiral to please be more careful when using quotes, but
I don't think he's purposely trying to cast suspicion anywhere
.
In response to that:
ThAdmiral wrote:I also didn't like how bookitty said a town ryan would "clear my name", although I think this has already been gone over.
Also your setting up of chain lynches
("if ryan is town, i'm definately voting boggzie tomorrow") has also been noted.
...
To say that he is making something of nothing is a bit strong. Also
you got "good vibes" from bookitty, which strikes me as odd as well
.
ThAdmiral wrote:I am intrigued by the opie-hasdgfas connection, as I am uneasy on both of these two, and am also following elias' attack on bookitty as
she is under my suspicion as well
.
ThAdmiral wrote:And even though you later backtracked on this, the fact still remains that
at one point you were attempting to set up a chain lynch.
I differ, Neko. I think he was definitely trying to cast suspicion, specifically on me. And I think fabricating a quote from someone is at best lazy and unhelpful posting, and at worst deliberately deceptive. I don't like it, even when it's not pointed at me, and I will respond negatively when it IS pointed at me.
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Post Post #242 (ISO) » Mon Oct 29, 2007 8:16 am

Post by Rishi »

Discussion has seemed to have petered out a bit.

Deadline: November 19, 11:59pm (Server Time)


After November 12, a majority of the players can request that the deadline be extended for two more weeks.

If any players need to be replaced, the deadline will automatically be extended the number of days it takes for me to find a replacement.

At deadline, five votes will be enough to lynch someone with longest-held vote being used as a tiebreaker, if necessary. If no one has five votes, the day will proceed to night without a lynch.

The day will end normally before deadline, if someone reaches six votes.
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Post Post #243 (ISO) » Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:33 am

Post by neko2086 »

If Boggzie is scum, he must be laughing his ass off right now, because nobody seems to care at all about what happened on day1. I do like having other things to discuss, and I did specifically prompt some other discussion, but when Boggzie starts making comments such as "frankly, anyone defending me right now, even to me, looks scummy" (and that is a direct quote), I just have to wonder if he's just getting comfortable with the thought that he can incriminate himself all he wants and nobody will vote for him. Let's face it people, he could say "no really, I'm scum" and a few people here would still let him go.

Boggzie, if you're town and you want to help us, do us a favor and for chrissakes defend yourself to keep yourself alive. If you don't I'll have to assume you're scum.

Do you want to help or not?
Vote: Boggzie
until you've convinced me otherwise.
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Post Post #244 (ISO) » Mon Oct 29, 2007 11:04 am

Post by Zakarum »

neko2086 wrote:If Boggzie is scum, he must be laughing his ass off right now, because nobody seems to care at all about what happened on day1. I do like having other things to discuss, and I did specifically prompt some other discussion, but when Boggzie starts making comments such as "frankly, anyone defending me right now, even to me, looks scummy" (and that is a direct quote), I just have to wonder if he's just getting comfortable with the thought that he can incriminate himself all he wants and nobody will vote for him. Let's face it people, he could say "no really, I'm scum" and a few people here would still let him go.

Boggzie, if you're town and you want to help us, do us a favor and for chrissakes defend yourself to keep yourself alive. If you don't I'll have to assume you're scum.

Do you want to help or not?
Vote: Boggzie
until you've convinced me otherwise.
I agree with this very strongly although i will wait until Boggzie has a chance to defend himself before I place my vote. I also don't like the attacks on Thadmiral. I feel he is just a scapegoat because of so little information. Although he hasn't posted much I don't think he is scum and i think the quote was just a mistake.
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Post Post #245 (ISO) » Mon Oct 29, 2007 11:50 am

Post by hasdgfas »

Zakarum, what is up with you? All you seem to be doing is agreeing with everybody, which is extrememly scummy. Don't just follow people, come up with your own ideas on everything. Blindly agreeing with people is a terrible idea when you don't know anyone else's alignment. Unless, somehow, you
do
know everyone else's alignment, which leaves 2 possibilities. Also, you
still
haven't answered my question from a long time ago:
I wrote:
Zakarum wrote: Very defensive hasdgfas im starting to see the connection between you and opi.
Zakarum, I still would like to know what this is referring to. Is it something in my 2-sentence post, or is it elsewhere?
I do still want an answer to it please. I have no clue where you see me being defensive and how it connects me with opie.
Zakarum wrote:I also don't like the attacks on Thadmiral. I feel he is just a scapegoat because of so little information. Although he hasn't posted much I don't think he is scum and i think the quote was just a mistake.
This has been gone over quite a bit since the incident in question. The things I have seen with regards to this is:
Opie:
opie wrote:ThAdmiral, I think you are misreading Bookitty's posts and by not quoting them, you are misleading others by misstating them.

I think the post you are refering to is Post 80, when she says:
Bookitty wrote: I am going to ask, though. Are you aware, Boggzie, that if this is just a gambit on your part, you're likely to be lynched tomorrow if you're wrong?

This is not a "If ryan is scum, i'm definately voting boggzie tomorrow" statement. I read it to be a warning that is Boggzie is wrong about this issue he is setting himself up to be a lynch target. Not necessarily by her but the town.
Bookitty's post does not in any way imply that she was planning a Boggzie lynch if ryan turned up town, just that he was going to have some explaining to do if ryan did turn up town.

You seem to be not fully paying attention to what is going on in this game. Your reasons are iffy at best, and downright scummy at worst.
vote: Zakarum
Throughout this entire game, your posts have made me scratch my head and say "What?" They haven't seemed like pro-town posts to me.
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Post Post #246 (ISO) » Mon Oct 29, 2007 11:54 am

Post by hasdgfas »

EBWOP: after
Bookitty's post does not in any way imply that she was planning a Boggzie lynch if ryan turned up town, just that he was going to have some explaining to do if ryan did turn up town.
somehow the rest of my paragraph got erased. Here it is:
The majority of ThAdmiral's day 2 has been spent with his suspicion on Bookitty and his misquote of her post that I have already quoted. Many people have said that it was terribly lazy posting for him not to go find the quote. Since that seems to be the majority of his argument, having it based on a misquote seems very suspicious and not pro-town.
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Post Post #247 (ISO) » Mon Oct 29, 2007 1:23 pm

Post by Zakarum »

I don't agree with everyone hasdgfas I agree with who I fell is making a good point. I have given a couple different times my own ideas on Boggzie and even in the post you quoted from I gave my feelings on Thadmiral.

In response to your question sorry I must have not read it when I was reading through. I just felt that you were defending opi pretty strongly by calling Elais out like that when it wasn't very hard to find that Elais did defend ryan.

Sorry if it comes out that I am not paying attention but I do have a life I'm a college student so a lot of my time goes to studying. If it is that much of a problem you can replace me.
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Post Post #248 (ISO) » Mon Oct 29, 2007 11:16 pm

Post by ThAdmiral »

Bookitty: the more I look at you the more scummy you seem. From reluctantly accepting that you'd have to lynch a person you thought was a townie, to trying to set up a chain lynch (all the while backtracking on these issues whenever you got a bit of heat for them), and now shifting the attention off yourself when these things were brought to light.
Bookitty wrote:Keeping in mind that a one-for-one exchange, scum for town, is utterly disastrous for scum (I'm sure you know this), if ryan doesn't come up scum, I'm going to be certain that you are. I'm sure that I won't be alone in this. And no amount of "Oh, I guess I just screwed up, then!" on your part is going to change my mind.
This is what you
actually
said, we can both agree on this. And while I was wrong to put in quotes what was, essentially, a summary of this (i.e. if ryan turns up town I'm definately voting boggzie tomorrow) the fact remains that this indeed was your
sentiment
in this post.
Instead of adressing this issue, however, you have accused me of lying and throwing around unwarranted suspicion.
If you weren't saying what I think you were in the above post - what were you saying? How would
you
summarise it?
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Post Post #249 (ISO) » Tue Oct 30, 2007 12:01 am

Post by Bookitty »

"Trying to set up a chain lynch" implies that I was trying to persuade others. I made no posts arguing for Boggzie to be lynched. One vote does not create a lynch. Others made similar comments, including Boggzie himself... are you arguing that Boggzie was setting up a chain lynch on himself?

(And by the way, I have never accused you of throwing around "unwarranted suspicion". I have said you were suspicious of me. I think it's right to be suspicious of anyone not confirmed town, and I confirmed that you were throwing suspicion on me when someone else said of you, "I don't think he's purposely trying to cast suspicion anywhere." You've confirmed that yourself, so I wasn't wrong, either.)

I was accused of being ryan's scumbuddy by Boggzie. My immediate reaction was that Boggzie must be scum, making up a story out of whole cloth in order to attack me. I'm not perfect, I have OMGUS tendencies just like anyone else. The only way to disprove his accusation, which basically was that ryan and I were scumbuddies and that ryan had missent a PM to Boggzie that was meant for me, was for one of us to die, or one of us to be investigated.

Upon reflection, it seemed an impossibly stupid gambit. While I knew that I was not ryan's scumbuddy, it was still possible that ryan had missent a PM meant for his real scumbuddy to Boggzie. It seemed unlikely. But it was possible. So while I knew Boggzie was wrong about me, I did not know that he was wrong about ryan. And I thought it possible it was an honest mistake, after some time to think about it.

Trying to set up a chain lynch implies a level of bandwagoning. I've not done that. Someone who was truly trying to set up a chain lynch would not back off from that because they thought the person in question might be a badly misguided innocent.

So, how would I summarise the (now) quoted post? I wouldn't. It's terse and to the point. I think it says exactly what I meant at the time. Why would you need to summarise three lines of text? Was it that difficult just to quote it in the first place?

I do find it interesting that others said roughly the same thing, as I've pointed out, yet you single me out for it, even going so far as to misquote me for it. But the fact remains: I realised I might be wrong, and I said so, well before you made any comment on the fact. I wasn't getting any "heat" about that. Everyone agreed with me, I think. Why, if I were truly trying to set up a chain lynch, would I back away from that well before I could carry through this supposed nefarious plan? Your statement there is just plain wrong.

Your logic doesn't hold water. By the same token, anyone who votes for another, and says, "If Player A is town, then I think Player B is likely scum," is setting up a chain lynch. It's not a reasonable attitude. And it discourages open discussion, which is bad for town. Admittedly, I don't think you much care about that last issue.

A last note. I wasn't going to comment this, because I thought I would wait and see who seemed opportunistic in attacking me. (I think there are valid reasons for others to suspect me -- they are wrong, but I can tell the difference between honest suspicion and made-up reasons regarding me, none the less.)

Spider Jerusalem posted this:
Spider Jerusalem wrote:Upon a second reading I got this though:
Thanks to some of the accusations from Boggzie, Bookitty was implicated as a possible scum buddy with ryan. She comes out with possible other explanations for what Boggzie saw as a scum tell. Due to ryan's continued emotional posts though she seems to have a change of heart. Her problem is that there is still the onus of suspicion on her and if ryan does turn up scum she is very possibly next. So in that situation an innocent person would be torn between wanting ryan not to be scum to clear themselves and their belief that he is scum.

This could be an effort to distance herself though. However since she was caught in a damned if she did damned if she didn't position (either she defends him and is guilty that way if he is scum, or she votes and if he turns up scum it's distancing) I don't feel much of a conclusion can be drawn at this time.
When Spider Jerusalem was NKed, I did wonder if scum had been trying to set up the lynch for tomorrow. I think (I am not certain) Spider Jerusalem was killed because he defended me at a point when everyone else was angrily pointing the finger of suspicion at me, and that defence was seen as depriving scum of their next lynch target.

Your opportunistic summarisation only makes me think that more likely. I think you're trying to manufacture a case against me, but not very convincingly, in my opinion at least. And I find that very suspicious, indeed.
"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."

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