Mini 1787: Peruvian Nightclub Mafia (Game End!)

[Tyler the Creator]

either that or w/e next level scum manipulation you created there that you think i'd be capable of

heh

[Tyler the Creator]

also tool, i wasn't trying to take anything away from how you play scum

it obviously works

it's just that post sticks out like a sore thumb because i can tell you rushed it and didn't go over it with a fine tooth comb

[toolenduso]

All right lotta problems in that post about Jaack.

even the initial line is scummy; the tone here is of a "oh here we go again it's so obvious all the problems with anything that have to do with my being scum"

but then why respond to it in this way?
who's the audience of this post?

First part is clearly twisting anything you can find to be twisted. The problem is not with "anything that has to do with my being scum," it's with your logic. Or lack thereof. And the audience is Bins, she's the one deciding this.

quote="In post 2567, Tyler the Creator"]The reasoning is literally; jaack is town because scum wouldn't say "don't forget TOF might be godfather"[/quote]

No, it's "Why would scum do something that would obviously make them look worse if they're the last member of their scumteam and one vote away from a lynch? And why doesn't Tyler see that?"

quote="In post 2567, Tyler the Creator"]My initial post was neutral anyway - you weren't challenging any position and the answer to it bordered on rhetorical.
The answer is "why do scum do anything."[/quote]

I was asking you to provide your reasoning. You clearly had none, and continue to have none. Therefore -- fake.

quote="In post 2567, Tyler the Creator"]You literally put off posting content because you wanted my answer to that?[/quote]

No, right after I asked you that question you came out with a shallow-reachy case on me and suddenly I started smelling something foul coming from your direction. So I switched gears.

And further, I was pointing it out specifically because you brought it up as an argument that I didn't understand. Turns out there was a reason for that -- you wanted to justify mislynching Jaack.

2) i invented the jaack wagon
3) i invented the xy wagon[/quote]

I could check on the veracity of this but it's irrelevant. So you wanted to lynch two townies. Great. I found the fake reasoning and pointed it out and now you can't justify it.

quote="In post 2567, Tyler the Creator"]one of the townest posts in the thread - you not recognizing that spoke a lot about how scum you were[/quote]

I have used that exact tactic as scum before and I have seen my partners do it when I'm scum. I gave examples. Why was xyzzy's post super-town? Again, let's look at your reasoning:

only a scumrobot wouldn't be swayed whatsoever by xy's post last page

Yeah.

[toolenduso]

Aw son of a bitch. Fixed the quote tags.

Spoiler:

All right lotta problems in that post about Jaack.

even the initial line is scummy; the tone here is of a "oh here we go again it's so obvious all the problems with anything that have to do with my being scum"

but then why respond to it in this way?
who's the audience of this post?

First part is clearly twisting anything you can find to be twisted. The problem is not with "anything that has to do with my being scum," it's with your logic. Or lack thereof. And the audience is Bins, she's the one deciding this.

The reasoning is literally; jaack is town because scum wouldn't say "don't forget TOF might be godfather"

No, it's "Why would scum do something that would obviously make them look worse if they're the last member of their scumteam and one vote away from a lynch? And why doesn't Tyler see that?"

My initial post was neutral anyway - you weren't challenging any position and the answer to it bordered on rhetorical.
The answer is "why do scum do anything."

I was asking you to provide your reasoning. You clearly had none, and continue to have none. Therefore -- fake.

You literally put off posting content because you wanted my answer to that?

No, right after I asked you that question you came out with a shallow-reachy case on me and suddenly I started smelling something foul coming from your direction. So I switched gears.

And further, I was pointing it out specifically because you brought it up as an argument that I didn't understand. Turns out there was a reason for that -- you wanted to justify mislynching Jaack.

2) i invented the jaack wagon
3) i invented the xy wagon

I could check on the veracity of this but it's irrelevant. So you wanted to lynch two townies. Great. I found the fake reasoning and pointed it out and now you can't justify it.

one of the townest posts in the thread - you not recognizing that spoke a lot about how scum you were

I have used that exact tactic as scum before and I have seen my partners do it when I'm scum. I gave examples. Why was xyzzy's post super-town? Again, let's look at your reasoning:

only a scumrobot wouldn't be swayed whatsoever by xy's post last page

Yeah.

[Tyler the Creator]

This game is basically contradicting my expectations of how town usually gets out of RVS. I feel like it usually goes like this:

RVS votes -> player A says something mildly scummy -> people wagon player A, and in the process player B says something weird -> people wagon player B

By this time in the game I feel like there's usually been a legit wagon. Since there hasn't been one yet in this game, I feel like scum is either disjointed or timid.

The main thing was that I really expected at least a small wagon on Robert for his first post. As soon as I saw it I thought it looked very surface-level scummy. Exactly the sort of thing you can make a shallow case on. Good place to look for scum trying to go for something easy/look like they're scumhunting.

Then jaack was the only person to do anything about it. After that:

ira kinda joke-criticized jaack about it in #29, Tyler townread jaack in #54 for it, Keyser voted jaack for it in #55 and Dunn votes and makes a case on jaack in #91.

It just kinda makes sense to me that jaack could be scum and his partners didn't support the robert wagon but are also not really dealing with the fallout on jaack either. He's a good place to start, I think.

VOTE: jaack

In other news, re-reading gave me a townlean on Tyler. Not entirely for the way he's playing, though he is doing work (a surface-level towny-looking thing), but more the way that people started townreading him almost in kind of snowball fashion. It's striking me as the kind of thing where town say he looks town, impressionable town agree and scum hop onto the townreading wagon in an effort to have genuine-looking reads.

like this is the post where i initially thought you were town early

you townread me, which is my kryptonite
you came up with this weird snowball townread thing that felt out of the box but upon reflection i do pay A LOT more attention to everyone's individual reads as scum - so it's pretty fake-able and how sticky you stayed on this for your reasoning and saying that my posts were "surface level" did make me twitch

mostly because i know exactly how town i radiate at any given moment; like this post im at about a 6 - last page i was about an 8 and when i quoted 3 dead town calling you scum i was high and feeling myself that post was probs a 10

make sense?

so when you say that my stuff was surface level - when it wasn't - that's actually pretty scummy and should've listened to my gut here about that little nudge and not say "well the rest of the post looks okay"

when it wasn't

the post is clearly inflated by three lines about how "unexpected" the game has been so far

then some IIoA about jaack

then the line about jaack doesn't even really make sense and is actually just straight up moonlogic
like that vote is pretty terrible now that im looking at it

but no i focus on shit about

me

and just townread it because being a human meatsack with emotions

[toolenduso]

Sorry I'm not trying to take this personally it's just it looks like we're about to lose so I've got this energy going

[Tyler the Creator]

Why was xyzzy's post super-town?

YOU DON'T KNOW YOU WON'T KNOW TOOL

that scum role PM suppresses your empathy

[Tyler the Creator]

im gonna try an experiment brb

[Tyler the Creator]

Okay so I looked through tool's iso just for any average sized post and what I'm gonna do is show that post unedited vs. an abridged version while trying to leave absolutely none of his points out and see what the difference actually is. Here we go.

Spoiler: Tool's post

Well I wanted to hear from Tyler, but it looks like people want the day to be over and I'm not sure when I'll have time to post again, so here we go.

The reason I was shocked at Tyler's case is because it made me think I was completely wrong about this game. Here's why:

1. His case clearly relies on reaches in logic.
2. Some of the wording indicates that he was sure of me not being scum. Not suspecting, or paranoid, as he had been before, but somehow had suddenly become

sure

of it.
3. I saw no reason for townTyler to suddenly drop his suspicions of xyzzy -- which have existed since the beginning of the game -- or of Jaack, and suddenly start scumreading me.
4. If Tyler is scum, he is putting himself in an excellent position to win the game by lynching me.

Before Tyler's case, town was basically deciding between Jaack and xyzzy for today's lynch. ScumTyler would look at that and see this scenario playing out:

Town lynches xyzzy today --> Jaack tomorrow --> then he has to convince town to lynch me in 3p LyLo

Therefore, laying down a case on me early would be a crucial step for scumTyler winning the game. It would put him in the exact position he would need to be in, which would be lynching xyzzy and then Jaack (in any order) and then getting the last remaining town to vote me so he could hammer for the win.

And if he could get me lynched today, it would be even better for him. Because who would really think to lynch Tyler over Jaack or xyzzy if I was out of the picture?

In short, if Tyler is scum then I think I was the biggest obstacle between him and victory because I was the least-suspected of the remaining town.

That was all what I thought at first upon seeing Tyler's case.

One of the first things that started bugging me about the scumTyler scenario was why he would wait until halfway through the day phase to pull out his case on me. Why not just come into today swinging at me? That would make more sense to me.

What

really

messes it up is that xyzzy is actually pushing me now as well. And that looks awfully good for scumXyzzy as well, because if xyzzy is the last scum then they would at this point be clawing for life. Xyzzy's suspicion of me essentially rides the coattails of Tyler's case, and in fact the post where they voted me looks pretty bad.

Look at what they said: That lynching either me or Jaack would provide info. Not that one or either of us looks like scum, but that lynching us would provide info. It just looks to me like self-consciousness of the need to justify their vote to town -- not to mention that it leaves a back door open for the next most likely lynch option not named xyzzy.

Another problem with a scenario where Tyler is scum is that it contradicts my theory about scum approaching HA's claim in the same way. That's part of why I was so taken aback when Tyler first posted his case and I started really thinking he might be the last scum. Now that xyzzy's jumped back in, well, I'm not sure. I'm still pretty wary of Tyler, but perhaps he really did just happen to go back in my ISO and psych himself into thinking I was scum.

Since we are approaching deadline...

VOTE: xyzzy

Spoiler: Post with same points made but abridged slightly

Wanted to hear from Tyler. Guess he didn't show up.
Tyler's case is bad.
Tyler's logic is reachy/scummy/yadayada (no examples given)
This is definitely not OMGUS. I have reasons for changing this read and everything!
Tyler is scum because he knows that he needs to lynch me to win the game. (yes this is actually one of his main points lol)
But I'm unsure because Xy is scumreading me too.
So not sure which one of them is scum.
Even though I typed out this entire wall and sounded very sure Tyler was scum just a minute ago.
But I'll end this off with a waffle on Tyler because apparently my hypothesis that I haven't mentioned in a RL week is what I've been revolving all my scumhunting this game around even though it actually really isn't.
And yes it does make sense that the scumteam would be all drones and do the same thing while ha gets shafted by town. Like, absolutely no way that they would have either been on different wagons, one bussing, one not etc. that just wouldn't make any sense (actually this is another example of terrible analysis that shows that same trend of tool having no paranoia ill probably look more into that tomorrow; the stuff he talked about surrounding ha's claim was pretty scummy now that im typing this)

[Tyler the Creator]

okay that didn't give me the results i'd hopped for and i did miss a few points but you get the idea

[Tyler the Creator]

also, scummy af turnaround like why did he make a mountain out of that if my points were so

reachy

[Tyler the Creator]

One BIG thing that you should keep in mind bins is how both creature, keyser and ha all softly scumread tool. Or at least didn't townread him.

We both thought he looked town the first half of the game all the way up until like... day 4ish? (at least for me)

Why do you think that is? Did any of them ever really try and lynch tool? Nah.

Distancing.

[Tyler the Creator]

also, scummy af turnaround like why did he make a mountain out of that if my points were so

reachy

to clarify this ill give an example

person 1: you're scum!
town: no you're scum!

person 1 again: you're scum!
scum: Four score and seven years ago ... (insert paragraphs upon paragraphs of scumminess and bs here) ... So, in conclusion. It has come to my attention, that this person who has called me scum, for reasons that make NO SENSE to anyone with a brain obviously (lol) is actually probably scum. Not jokin'!

[toolenduso]

also, scummy af turnaround like why did he make a mountain out of that if my points were so

reachy

Because I'd been largely fooled up until that point. I thought you were town.

One BIG thing that you should keep in mind bins is how both creature, keyser and ha all softly scumread tool. Or at least didn't townread him ... Did any of them ever really try and lynch tool? Nah.

Yeah, and how did they interact with you? Here is literally HA's only mention of you:

Spoiler: tyler

vote:xyzzy

guess why im voting this

Still confused about what you meant by this. Were you assuming that we though it obvious why you voted thus?
First assumption is that Tyler is town. Also a gut choice. He does seem to think Jack is town and has some doubt on Bins like me, so with common thoughts, I'll put him as town for now.

And this is all the noteworthy interactions I found between both Keyser and Creature toward you:

-Keyser kinda buddies up to Tyler in #58, sorta like he did to me on D1 as well.
-Other than that, his discussions with Tyler are largely clinical (answering questions, talking about game theory, etc).
-Creature says Tyler's motivations look good in #1868.

They basically ignored you except to give you shallow townreads.

[Tyler the Creator]

yes tool because i know the first thing on my mind as scum is to
1. ignore the shit out of my buddies
2. and make sure that i townread them for silly and confusing reasons

scum all lurked out - having more interaction with them is weirder than not much

[toolenduso]

yes tool because i know the first thing on my mind as scum is to

We're not talking about you. We're talking about your partners...

1. ignore the shit out of my buddies
2. and make sure that i townread them for silly and confusing reasons

scum all lurked out - having more interaction with them is weirder than not much

...and scum do these things all the time with their partners. Especially avoiding interaction.

[Tyler the Creator]

I wasn't necessarily referring to myself. Just an in general kind of thing that people do when they're scum. lol

[Bins]

im gonna find a post by one of you that couldnt possibly been said by scum

pls submit ur responses

[Bins]

Votecount 6.01

Not Voting

: toolenduso, Tyler the Creator, Bins

With three alive, it takes two to lynch

Note: This will be the only votecount for today.

hey modman how much time do i have before tick tick tick BOOM

[toolenduso]

I mean I don't think there's anything that could be impossible for scum to say. I'm generally against the idea because my own knowledge that I'm town is going to cause me to see my own posts differently than somebody who can't be sure whether I'm town. But if you're asking then I can look around for some towny-looking stuff in my ISO.

[Zulfy]

You have (expired on 2016-07-07 19:21:00)

[toolenduso]

Honestly Bins I think you already found a lot of the most towny stuff from me. Like 411, 448 and 1646. There's the fact that I didn't go after Robert when he mixed up his claim and Tyler did? There's also the fact that I was trying to prevent town from fracturing after Dunn's gambit by dividing the game clearly into towns and scum possibilities. I did that so we wouldn't get distracted and let scum fool us into lynching somebody like Dunn or TOF.

[toolenduso]

Which, while going through my ISO, I found another thing that shows why Tyler is scum that I forgot about. After Dunn's gambit, while Jake was still pushing super hard for us to lynch Dunn, Tyler said this:

look, if this is about teaching the kid a lesson so that he never does stupid shit like this as town again, then yea, we've got a couple mislynches to burn and there's no way for me to argue that

So I pointed out that that would be making it harder for town to win:

Bad idea for town. We have a pool of clears and our advantage is in keeping as many people in that pool as possible.

And Tyler responded:

no shit?

So I was all like:

Sorry -- was this post not you suggesting that we could afford to lynch Dunn just to appease Jake?

And then Tyler was like:

we could "afford" it

it's pretty easy to gather im quite against it, though

i just wanted to no for sure if it was worth my time to argue with him about it

Which is him trying to slip out of it. He's still saying we could lynch Dunn to appease Jake, but then not taking responsibility for it.

[Tyler the Creator]

tool, i only have one vote, i argued against the dunn lynch

why is it impossible for you to interpret perfectly reasonable lines of inquiry just as they are and not add on this make believe masked robber breaking into the back window spin to it?

without me the dunn lynch probably goes through; you're first quote is me - arguing against jake about why lynching dunn is bad

you say bad idea for town - like you're arguing against me, but you have the same exact stance on it as i do?
fucking hell man could you pretend to care about other people's stances on things that you have a stake enough in to argue about?

[Tyler the Creator]

if i was trying to "appease" jake then that quote would have contained a vote on dunn, is what im saying essentially