Mini Normal 1775 END!

[Madonna]

/confirm

[Madonna]

Until I am caught up, no votes from me. But I will assume four pages means we are out of RVS and into the fun times.

I am sort of aware that there was some sort of disagreement between knightmare and one of the S people, and I hope that bore a lot of fruit. We L-1 anyone out of that? You can spoil me if you please, but I can read. Cheers.

[Madonna]

By the end of page 2, I liked the knightmare wagon, but what is this?

All these people sheeping me are giving me the chills however...

Why do you state worry about sheeps instead challenging them? Why not be happy with their votes unless you think knightmare is a mislynch?

Will get through the next two pages to see whatever other nonsense people are peddling.

pedit: is the site being really slow for anyone else? I have been trying to post for, like, five minutes and no dice.

[Madonna]

unless you think knightmare is a mislynch?

Yeah, that was about it. I've explained it afterwards as "i rarely get sheeped this easily and it's usually impossible to get my suspects lynched" (usually not even past my own vote).
Hence why i said it was giving me the chills, a.k.a i had a bad feeling about it.

You guys are pages ahead of me still, but this still bugs. You cut off my quote, Sakura Hana! What happened to the good reason which caused you to suspect knightmare? Other people joining your wagon should not affect your vote's reasoning. And if you are suspecting you started a mislynch and wanted to get off it, are you then looking closely at the people who joined the wagon? I will catch up and find out, but I will bet this is a no.

[Madonna]

Your question in full was this:

Why do you state worry about sheeps instead challenging them? Why not be happy with their votes

unless you think knightmare is a mislynch?

The part in bold is the part i quoted because it's pretty much the answer to your own question.
As for your new question:

also what's your thoughts on lowell?

His OMGUS vote was the first thign that caught my attention, but also was accompanied by a defiant tone, thought it was townie back then. Haven't looked at all the votes on the wagon so far, it's just that

suddenly sayaka and boon voted in succession and gave me a chill.

Probably my gut trying to tell me something.
I still dont think Knight's very townie, but if he is the people that blindly sheeped me would be the first ppl i would look at... I usually have trouble convincing ppl of my reads since they come from gut most of the time, and ppl just blindly sheeping me gives me a bad feeling.

You seem to have skipped over it.
Neither of them have been posted since i pointed my finger here.

Yeah, no. You have stated discomfort with the wagon you started because of the other players who joined. This is passive, not active. If the other players were an issue, voting or trying to engage them is an active method of addressing the issue. It seems to me that your main scumspect pool should be: chilledtea, Boonskiies, Sayaka Maizono, Lowell, and Almost50. Heck, you narrowed it down to Sayaka Maizona and Boonskiies. However, I do not see you engaging any of these players. You instead bemoan that you cannot refute Expedience's reasoning to vote you. This is bad; amend.

knightmare's defensive and emotional walls were off-putting. Not sure if I want to lynch this person, but it may be sympathy holding me back.

Lowell is both terrible and fine. He is the non-sympathy in my heart.

If I were to buy into Sakura Hana's innocence, and I have made no purchases, mind you, I would think the other members of the knightmare wagon are a fine place to begin. However, I do agree it is late and they can be looked at tomorrow. For now,

VOTE: Sakura Hana

[Madonna]

@madonna: is it your opinion that the wagon was a serious attempt to end d1 quickly?

This is a weird question and so is every instance where players in this game talk about serious votes. This is for everyone:

every vote, even in RVS, should be counted as a serious vote,

because you should absolutely always vote how you are feeling. If a player is voting someone, the voter is saying, "I want this person lynched," not, "No feelings or beliefs behind this." I can accept votes that okay a lynch on a lukewarm read, but only if we are nearing deadline and the voter does not have a better, stronger read on someone else. No one should be saying that their vote is not serious, and if they are, maybe consider voting them to help make them realize what a vote means.

I do not think a wagon on knightmare was an attempt to end the day early. I think it was something which could lead to ending the day, but if the mafia were on a mislynch, it was for the sake of a mislynch, not a day ending move.

[Madonna]

This is a weird question and so is every instance where players in this game talk about serious votes. This is for everyone:

every vote, even in RVS, should be counted as a serious vote,

because you should absolutely always vote how you are feeling. If a player is voting someone, the voter is saying, "I want this person lynched," not, "No feelings or beliefs behind this." I can accept votes that okay a lynch on a lukewarm read, but only if we are nearing deadline and the voter does not have a better, stronger read on someone else. No one should be saying that their vote is not serious, and if they are, maybe consider voting them to help make them realize what a vote means.

I do not think a wagon on knightmare was an attempt to end the day early. I think it was something which could lead to ending the day, but if the mafia were on a mislynch, it was for the sake of a mislynch, not a day ending move.

I don't understand this. You seem to be saying that RVS is in fact not RVS at all. You also seem to be saying that it's not legitimate to toss on a vote simply as a reaction test as opposed to a serious read. My understanding is this runs contrary to board meta. Can you correct me if my assessment of board meta is off, or clarify why you feel this way?

You misunderstand. First, RVS exists. Simple as that. Second, votes count. An RVS vote counts as a vote. "Reaction/test" votes are still votes. I do not care what kind of votes they are once we are beyond RVS, and RVS votes need to be evaluated once we pass the threshold into serious discussion. Why? Because all votes are votes, and all votes matter.

I do not care for your understanding of board meta, whatever the board meta is, or most arguments which categorize things as meta. Things which matter are things in this game.

[Madonna]

I can understand tunneling, Sayana. I don't think that's the case here.

My point is that I think Lowell is

twisting things to make me look scummy

and that his perspective is not genuine.

Again, look at post 84 again I think it's pretty obvious he is not being objective.

I am quoting you, knightmare, but I think others have expressed this sentiment about Lowell as well, and this needs addressing. 84 is a great post. 85 and 89 are great follow-ups. There is nothing indicative of a scum mindset in these posts. 57 is a little eh, but I agree that because of knightmare's play, it is plenty fine.

In terms of content to action ratios, Lowell is doing a whole lot better than most. His reasoning has been simple and clean, and I like that.

[Madonna]

So is it your opinion that i should've been engaging the players instead of waiting until they reply to me pointing the finger at them?
Sorry but i dont play the way other people want me to play.

Why would they reply to what you call a finger? You get people's attention with questions directed @them or a vote. This is a terribly passive approach to those you consider questionable in comparison to the wagon for which you properly argued before bailing on it.

I dont think knightmare is scum since like 2-3 pages ago.
I also unvoted because I thought the wagon buildup was too fast.
If you think im lying there's nothing I can do to show you differently, so im not even gonna bother.

See above. You had a scumpool that you yourself defined as Boonskiies and Sayaka Maizono, but you went for Lowell. Disappointing.

[Madonna]

Why would they reply to what you call a finger? You get people's attention with questions directed @them or a vote. This is a terribly passive approach to those you consider questionable in comparison to the wagon for which you properly argued before bailing on it.

Ok, so let's see

FOS: BOOON

There happy?

I'll catch up tomorrow. Busy past couple of days. Party tonight for Saint patty's, woot woot.

You are clearly going places, Sakura Hana.

[Madonna]

@mhsmith0, 182: Things are getting messy. Here is a clean response.

1. You misunderstand. You talk about board meta, which is something I do not recognize. I say what is available in this thread, this game, is what matters. I then extended my argument against any future uses of "meta".

2a. Refer to Garmr's 63. That RVS vote changed from RVS to serious, but it stayed on the same person. If you need help evaluating votes, then you probably need help evaluating reads and everything else. You can probably do it just fine without me being further condescending.

2b. A vote is a vote. I do not see why you are trying to differentiate between the "types". Whether you feel a vote is reasonable and legitimate is up to you. Whether I agree with you is up to me.

3. Almost50 is not the fight I decided to have, and no one asked me to weigh in on that player specifically. His reads can be different than mine, as can everyone else's about everyone else. You seem to be working in a very black and white world; things are much more grey than that.

[Madonna]

I don't have any reads yet. I don't have reasons for doing anything. I'm waiting for stuff to happen.

Welcome to Boonskiies, you poor souls.

Life is better when he is already on a wagon you join versus later, since he will happily quickhammer just about anything. So be careful with your L-1's.

[Madonna]

@knightmare, 183: Paragraph responses.

1. It is true; you had not been very helpful up to his 84, just defensive. And emotional, and prone to get further emotional, all over-defensive. In that he was right, and in that I agreed.

2. Townies do not need to sweat much about a Day 1 lynch. Without better scumreads, lynching knightmare is no big thing.

3. chilledtea moved to Sayaka Maizono once you reached four votes. Sakura Hana unvoted once you hit five. 85 is good.

4. 144: it is possible you OMGUSed. 175: post references would have been great, but it is like he has conviction to stand by his vote. Not scummy.

[Madonna]

@knightmare, 263:
1. You miscomprehend. You have been overly emotional over votes against you made with poor cases. Anything else you got out of this is irrelevant.

2. I will try again: people got cold-footed instead of staying the course. If voting for you in the first place was worthwhile, why did they stop?

3. Votes are votes. If you are lynched today, chilledtea's move will matter. Sakura Hana's unvote is worse than chilledtea's in that if she was suddenly pro-knightmare and had a two-person scumpool, why did she eventually move on elsewhere?

4. Then there is nothing to it and nothing alignment-indicative. Give me more posts with no content to establish a pattern. Before you argue he has done nothing, I believe he wants to vote you, so him keeping that stance is, ah, something.

[Madonna]

If we are all still into baseless fingering, chilledtea rubs me the wrong way.

I have made a case for Sakura Hana, and I do dislike knightmare's playstyle.

Currently happy with Boonskiies's play and almond mocha ice cream.

[Madonna]

Hi. Can the Lowell voters share their cases again? There are a lot of pages and a lot of nonsense, and it would be nice to cut away the chaff.

[Madonna]

I thought bad vibes were excuse enough to stop a knightmare lynch, so why do they not work with a Lowell lynch?

If people are going to be so fervent in their idea that Lowell is scum, I would like a hammer to help us be clear where players want to stand.

[Madonna]

It is not like you guys would get cold-feet, right?

I am all for ending the Day before deadline before scum and good-intentioned townies spend more time scumming up the water.

[Madonna]

So, cold feet. Disappointing.

VOTE: Lowell

[Madonna]

Also this is horrible. I hate not hammering. Must...resist...temptation...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5i-sbh7UCw

[Madonna]

To be clear, I do not care for this wagon, but if you guys are so convinced of your arguments, well, here is your chance to put your vote where your feelings are. L-1 is not just for pressuring the lynch candidate. I do not mind settling the wagon's read.

[Madonna]

To be clear, I do not care for this wagon, but if you guys are so convinced of your arguments, well, here is your chance to put your vote where your feelings are. L-1 is not just for pressuring the lynch candidate. I do not mind settling the wagon's read.

"Fuck it I don't care who we lynch today"
Wow.

This is not what was said.

People either need to keep voting Lowell or get off the wagon.

I do appreciate people waiting for his claim before lynching him, but I do not think he needs this pressure.

[Madonna]

you guys

You mean the town?

lol

[Madonna]

So are we lynching Lowell or not, people? Not saying I called it, but there you go.

[Madonna]

No offense, but if this is not settled soon, we are looking at more pages of bullshit to slog through before we even see a claim, and then more pages after that. Not interested.

[Madonna]

Madonna's bugging me a lot right now.
Votes Lowell and expects him to be hammered within 1 hour?
And where did Madonna's constant defense of Lowell even go? Where and Why did that 180 come from?

There has been 200+ posts since I last argued anything in defense of Lowell. My opinion could have changed since then, surely.

Strange how any defense somehow translates to others as "strong townread" and that it somehow must be permanent.

[Madonna]

Reread Lowell's ISO. Still love the guy.

I am not voting Lowell because I think he is scum. I think other players voting for him are either being obtuse or are scum and both of those groups need to put up or shut up, as the French say.

If you are convinced Lowell is scum, I am helping so fret not, team.

[Madonna]

Lowell (6): Garmr, knightmare, Almost50, chilledtea, Sakura Hana, Madonna (L-1)

So let us be clear about this: all of these people are voting Lowell. Apparently I am the only scummy one despite my townread of him and my insistence that this wagon stop. Since it has not, I am being a team player (or busser!) and helping all of these towny townspeople. Did I get that right?

[Madonna]

Lowell (6): Garmr, knightmare, Almost50, chilledtea, Sakura Hana, Madonna (L-1)

So let us be clear about this: all of these people are voting Lowell. Apparently I am the only scummy one despite my townread of him and my insistence that this wagon stop. Since it has not, I am being a team player (or busser!) and helping all of these towny townspeople. Did I get that right?

You insist the wagon stop while voting for it. It seems you're going with the "I'm an idiot" excuse.
Ps walk us through what you're ACTUALLY hoping to accomplish here. Just on the off chance you're being dumb town instead of dumb scum.

I am not really interested in this constant baiting of people asking questions only to be dismissed. I have an ISO. You can read it if you would like.

I am waiting on a claim or a hammer. Everything else is secondary...unless this wagon magically stops, of course.

[Madonna]

@Madonna - you are waiting for a claim or a hammer? What happens if Lowells claims a PR?

I expect the town to consider its validity, because there is not much else I could do.

[Madonna]

I could be over analyzing this and he could very well be a town player who's just not feeling the Lowell wagon, but is doing it the wrong way. If he genuinely believes it's a bad lynch he should be working on a town case for Lowell to convince us it's not the right lynch.

Hi. Can the Lowell voters share their cases again? There are a lot of pages and a lot of nonsense, and it would be nice to cut away the chaff.

Not saying that would help anyone with refuting the cases against Lowell or anything, but putting that out there.

[Madonna]

You don't vote someone you're genuinely town reading. Period. You may vote someone you're not too sure about if there's no other option or if your strong scum read is clearly not going to happen as a compromise, but "I'm town reading him but I'm still voting them" does look scummy.

Yeah, not interested in this idea since we are clearly beyond that. Your post is more scum fuel than of town substance.

[Madonna]

Not saying that would help anyone with refuting the cases against Lowell or anything, but putting that out there.

Sorry, but ^this coming right after this V is not going to help much.

I am not really interested in this constant baiting of people asking questions only to be dismissed. I have an ISO. You can read it if you would like.

Did not have a vote count until of late and was not going to spend my day milling through the ever-growing pages here to find each voter and their potentially evolving case. A more solid presentation would have (and still could be) appreciated.

Courtesy says people meet my earlier demand before I put up with more of others'.

[Madonna]

Yeah, not interested in this idea since we are clearly beyond that. Your post is more scum fuel than of town substance.

If you're "not interested" .. don't ASK. I only responded to your post quoted below:

So let us be clear about this: all of these people are voting Lowell. Apparently I am the only scummy one despite my townread of him and my insistence that this wagon stop. Since it has not, I am being a team player (or busser!) and helping all of these towny townspeople. Did I get that right?

Sorry for trying to acknowledge your question/query

The question was I the only one scummy, not why I am being scumread.

[Madonna]

@Madonna: OK.. I'll bite. It's not like you need to read anyone's case though. All you need to do is ISO Lowell himself (just 19 posts in total, btw):

Note: I'm puling some excerpts, but linking each and every post so you can view in full.

1- 17 RSV
2- 57 Votes knight for... ????
3- 84 Reasoning for voting knight is basically "this guy is scum. I'm a gut player" while stating "not sure how, or why, this wagon started. But don't care."

NOTE: This came as a 5th vote on knight. Is it serious? Is it for a reaction? Is it for lolz?? Let's see:

4- 85 "Relax, kill, repeat."?? Is this how you play this game?
5- 89 "Let's do less thinking and more playing with our hearts... and guts.... kill knight."?? Less thinking?? Play with hearts and guts?? Like how you play.. roulette?
6- 90 Doesn't even count
7- 144 Accusing knight of being OMGUSy when knight obviously voted for a reason. Out of SIX people who voted knight up to that point (counting Sakura who had unvoted) knight ONLY voted Lowell. How's that OMGUSy?
8- 175 Not even sure who's that directed at.
9- 276 Knight isn't happening, so let's switch to smith for some reason. Also boon is town "because of his obnoxious multi-posts". (Now that's how you scum hunt alright )
10- 278 "Stop asking questions: vote mhsmith." (Now that's some convincing reason for someone to sheep them)
11- 283 "And wagons on newbs are fun, anyway." + "so I'm moving to an easier, hopefully more hilarious, target."
12- 316 Please do read this one. WHAT point? And how is Expedience giving him town vibes? (Expedience <<< @ Smith). Then 3 scum reads who are all strong town?
13- 318 No comment.
14- 320 Ignoring questions directed at him.
15- 327 Less than optimal response.
16- 354 Now accusing SMITH of being OMGUSy, when -in fact- smith had yet t vote him. Also where is this said "self-preservation" when smith is actually throwing everything including the kitchen sink into the game? The guy is relentless, doesn't hold back, isn't afraid of engaging others for whatever.
17- 358 Finally responds to a question. Not much of an explanation, but a response none-the-less.
18- 360 FIVE PEOPLE voting him and "no one believes I'm scum, they just think "meh, he's sort of annoying, and better him than me... sure I can live with that.""
19- 380 Votes Texcat, the reason being....???

So, you see.. out of 19 posts only one contained a glimpse of an intent to be playing the game. Otherwise, it's mudding, flirting, fluffing, being all sorts of anything but a scum hunter.

Please tell me what YOU saw in this ISO that you liked (apart from being funny at times)?

Hi, mobile posting. The issue with a critique of Lowell's ISO is that it is not a case brought by our fair voters. It can be easy justification at this point when playing to a biased crowd.

I may try to get another mobile post in later today, but I will be busy enough until my Sunday afternoon to do more than this Infuriating thing:

UNVOTE: Lowell

I had hoped to call a bluff, but people seem intent on following through with this nonsense. I do not have time in the day to manage this.

I do not think I can respond point by point with quotes on this device, but I will reread and try to convey the general idea, Almost50.

[Madonna]

Oh hey knight is scum. Good find, whoever started this. Early wagons rule. BLOOD!

VOTE: knight

Stats say at least one of the people on my wagon by now is scum.

Is it you?

VOTE: Lowell

More seriously - did you actually read anything or are you just parroting off of someone you can't even readily recall after 2 pages of reading?

Actually, let us start with a quote. This knightmare? The sheeper-for-reactions knightmare? A vote to specifically sheep is not RVS after previously voting in RVS is something with an actual agenda. And it looks OMGUS to me, honestly. However, I have previously mentioned that 57 is meh as a post. I was not surprised this was the vote knightmare had success attacking. Still OMGUS.

[Madonna]

Knightmare, shh, adults are talking. You can derail my Almost50 response later.

[Madonna]

@Almost50: 276 is a result from his 89's position. Not entirely in favor of his choice, but it is a change and arguably scumhunting. mhsmith0 could have turned out results for the traits he points out.

[Madonna]

On a phone, knightmare, responding to someone else and I do not have all day.

[Madonna]

...And wagons on newbs are fun, anyway.
...
so I'm moving to an easier, hopefully more hilarious, target.

Serious vote or joke/reaction test? I'm assuming the latter for now. I dislike playing games with votes but whatever.

This guy needs some votes. Even when I specifically vote him on page whatever this is, he's all "oh, me? are you being serious? Is this just a joke? oh gosh, I don't know."

Stop asking questions: vote mhsmith. I promise it'll get hilarious as we get close to lynch. I can tell he's the type.

What the heck? Stop asking questions and just vote? deadline is in a little less than 2 weeks, why would we rush a lynch when there's still lots of discussion to be had, for instance, the lack of your explanation for anything?

There's always someone who gets needlessly peeved about this. For every "oops quick lynch" I've seen about a dozen "no let's wait no let's wait no let's wait OOPS OUT OF TIME KILL SOMEONE RANDOM QUICK." So how about you address the point I made instead of polishing your mock incredulation act.

What do you think of Sakura, Lowell? You're not weirded out at all by her backing off of knightmare?

Yes, I'm VERY worried about it. There's nothing I like less than when a wagon forms, gets close, and then people just start to weasel themselves out of it without any good reason other than "it's too early" or "I want to keep looking" or whatever. Again, this game shouldn't just be pissing around waiting until deadline and then panic-lynching. sakura is probably scum.

Oh man.

Boon is scum, lowell is prob scum and madonna is prob scum too. Although madonna is a slight read.

Can we just decide on one of these. I would go for boon though.

Sounds pseudo-Lowell.

Yeah this guy wishes. Though in possibly related news, this guy gives me townvibes.

Anyway, smith, sakura, and knight. Game over, let's all go home.

This, I feel, is a super townie post. He points out his beef with mhsmith0 again after mhsmith0 does exactly what Lowell decried. That is the point, Almost50, which you are not seeing, and which Sakura Hana also seems to miss in favor of chaff. He clearly addresses his issue with Sakura Hana (I agree, btw) but keeps focus unlike a flailing scum. Also, he gives a townread on Expedience (not sold on it but am not scumreading either), knocks a read to compare chilledtea to him, and gives out scumreads aligning with his stances and votes. Am not finding any of this disagreeable.

[Madonna]

Knightmare, I think the initial wagon was better than the one we are seeing, but ideally Sakura Hana.

[Madonna]

318 is incredulity, asked and got someone's response about their townread take on his scumreads.

[Madonna]

Eh, maybe more implication that someone is scum to either better sort the others, since Lowell is reading in the opposite direction.

[Madonna]

Maybe you should actually address him then, Lowell.

Also - why am I scum? Lay it out for me, bullet point style if you want.

What are your reads elsewhere? I wanna know what you think about Madonna.

Your bottom three are horrid and besides myself I think the other two are town. So essentially 0/3. For someone pushing with such bravado you lack any real substance to back it.

These may very well qualify as boring questions from his scumread since the first had been answered and the second was to spread out attention to a non-case which qualifies as boring (but not scummy).

[Madonna]

@lowell: Here's one from me. Was your vote on me serious or just joke/reaction testing? That's an easy question with an easy answer.

Are you kidding? It's page 14. My vote is legit. Your playstyle is a put-on and you're scum.

Fucking hell, this is dumb shit

from mhsmith0

. Even joke/reaction votes are fucking votes. They may still exert the same pressure because all votes do the same fucking thing. Unless you fucking preface them with "for reaction purposes only" and can guess the voter will retract.

[Madonna]

Actually...
UNVOTE: Almost50
I'd by lying if I said I town read you right now (I still lean scum on you), but I'm liking your response (and the reasons you gave for town reading Sakura's behavior I think make sense, although I still wish you'd just said why earlier), and the stench of scummy bullshit from Lowell and Chilledtea is just too strong. My vote belongs on one of them, now I just need to decide which one.

All this guy can do is OMGUS. Look, we all want to believe newb is town and can be taught, but it's clear his motivation is self-preservation rather than scumhunting. That he does the former while pretending to do the latter is not a bonus.

mhsmith0 is prepping where he is going. Clear indications present.

[Madonna]

That was all I had time for.

Would vote knightmare, Sakura Hana, or mhsmith0.

[Madonna]

It is Saturday, midnight.

[Madonna]

Congratulations, mafia. Less congratulations, town.