Mini 517: Tree Stump Mafia: Game Over

[Mastermind of Sin]

/confirm!

[Mastermind of Sin]

Original Roll String: 1d12

1 12-Sided Dice: (11) = 11

[Mastermind of Sin]

Vote: SilverPhoenix

[Mastermind of Sin]

That sounds like a bullshit argument to me, Quag. If you're not looking at your role, you should play assuming that you are protown, since you have a better probability of getting that role. Therefore, your best play from not knowing your role is quite clearly to stump yourself when the time comes. The fact that you are fighting against it and trying to play it into an established persona and the "I don't give a shit" schtick makes me think that you are scum trying to slide by. I don't buy it.

Unvote, Vote: Quagmire

It's stumping time.

Pooky: I would stump myself.

[Mastermind of Sin]

@Korlash, Quag only has 4 votes out of 7 to lynch. We're voting with the intent to kill, but it's not like we'd just sit back and let him be quicklynched. I agree that it's

slightly

possible that he actually doesn't know his role. But I don't think it's very likely. Even if he doesn't know, Korlash, he is purposefully choosing to play in an antitown manner so that if he is scum he's helping himself. This hurts the town, so I fail to see why you think it is scummy that we want a blatantly antitown person dead.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'm not against wanting an anti-ton person dead, I'm against wanting anyone dead on page 3.

It is never too soon to find scum.

[Mastermind of Sin]

He is at -4. Adele unvoted.

[Mastermind of Sin]

We can never be sure of anything. However, "most likely" is a lot better than we'll do most of the time.

[Mastermind of Sin]

We can never be sure of anything. However, "most likely" is a lot better than we'll do most of the time.

I swear to god I have not looked at my role.

although mos you seem very scummy; i'm glad we're lynching you tomorrow because you're really stupid and bloodthirsty and worthless

but adele is today's target fo'sho'

Nice OMGUS

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'm not against wanting an anti-ton person dead, I'm against wanting anyone dead on page 3.

It is never too soon to find scum.

How did you get find scum from what I said? In fact, a 3 page day is in no way helping to find scum.. in fact it is helping to not find scum at all!

FoS: MoS...

And I am voting for Korlash because he is very suspicious! He keeps stealing my stuff, the jerk...

...hello, logic please? When you find scum, you vote to lynch them. It doesn't matter if it's the first fucking page. You don't just sit around and say "hmm, we need another 8 pages before we can lynch this scum we found!" That's not how the game works. Quagmire is acting like scum, so I'm going to vote for him. Just because he slipped up trying to find a way to act blatantly scummy and get away with it on Page 1, does not mean that we can't lynch him.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Quagmire's latest posts are not making me feel any better. It now looks like he's trying to push his "I'll know who I am tomorrow!" statement as a copout to squirm away from being lynched. That is a ridiculous statement. Someone please put down another vote. Quag, this is your last chance to stump before you die.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Korlash, do you

really

think Quag didn't look at his role pm? If so, I have this bridge I'd like to sell you.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Korlash, do you

really

think Quag didn't look at his role pm? If so, I have this bridge I'd like to sell you.

And where did I say that? I just think lynch someone on the basis of them not looking a their role is kinda dumb.

See, that's just the thing. If you believed he *had* looked at his role, that means he is scum. Therefore, he should be lynched. By saying that you think it's dumb to lynch someone for not looking at their role, you are saying you believed he had not looked at his role.

To elaborate on my theory regarding SilverPhoenix, since Adele has given me such a nice opportunity to do so:

The first reaction in looking at SilverPhoenix is to list him among the "QuagHaters". But he was a bit hesitant to vote him in the first place (giving him the HoS while speculating that voting him may be a bad idea because of the whole refusal to stump thing), and didn't leave his vote on for long. Then, when Quag was up to 5 (with Adele ready to vote as well), he gave him an IGMEOY (which didn't make a whole lot of sense, as I pointing out in the following post).

If Quag had turned up town, I would've probably passed this off as confused townie flip-flopping. As it is, I get the impression that SP wanted to join the growing bandwagon for distancing, got off in hopes that his scumbuddy could be saved, and then tried distancing again when it was clear Quag was going down. I doesn't likes it.

I agree with this completely. SP backed off of Quag when the QuagLovers started pressuring him, and it really looked like he was trying to please them to get off his back.

Please, refresh my memory; what was the case for Quag being scum that

cannot be explained by him not reading his role PM

?

If Quag had truly not looked at his role pm, he wasn't playing correctly anyways. Someone who had not looked at their role pm shouldn't do any of the following:

a) announce they had not looked at their role pm
b) play as if they had equal probability of being either alignment (because statistically, you are more likely to be town and therefore should play as if you are town, since scum want to pretend to be town

anyways

)...
c) continue to do B after it has been thoroughly explained why they shouldn't

Quag's actions were fairly obviously coming from scum who was trying to find an excuse for not playing as a protown player. I have seen him as scum before; he likes to try tactics to get away with acting like scum. This isn't something new for him.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Oh, and

Vote: SilverPhoenix

[Mastermind of Sin]

The town needs to wake up. Seriously.

I didn't want this role. I wanted to be a Lumberjack! Leaping from tree to tree!

I don't really care if this is bad play. All I care about is the scum targeting a confused townie.

Uhh, wow. You suicided on two votes? Wtf? Even *if* you thought it was inevitable, you have now cut off any evidence that could have been gained if you were actually wagoned to L-2. The whole reason this stumping plan is supposed to work is because we gain evidence from everyone that is wagoned to stumping. If we just all stump right away, chances are the scum will win.

I don't remember if this was talked about yesterday, but it just occurred to me. Does this L-2 stumping plan account for a reduction in the numbers of the town? For example, when it is 5 or 4 to lynch, do we still want to stump at L-2, or should that be bumped to L-1? We want to have a cushion before someone is lynched, but we also want to make it harder for scum to just push everyone into stumping due to the low numbers needed. I think it would make sense for whoever places the L-1 vote to announce it in bold so that no one makes a "mistake".

[Mastermind of Sin]

I think L-2 is the best MoS. It prevents the scum from quick hammering and gaining a kill. For example, there can be 4 of us left, and we are about to lynch a townie. Assuming the remaining scum is not yet voting, if we put someone at L-1, the scum hammers and they win. If we leave it at L-2, if the scum votes, we lynch them, if the two plays not voting say stump, we basically gain one more lynch. I know that this is probably unlikely, but it can happen.

I agree with this, at the lower numbers. I was more thinking about intermediate lynches, rather than endgame numbers.

[Mastermind of Sin]

korlash, the town has a 60% chance of winning the game on average. With Quag lynched Day 1, we have a much higher chance, and SilverPhoenix's suicide only dents the numbers slightly.

We have 9 people alive, 7 town to 2 scum. If we were to randomly make people stump, that's a 22% chance of hitting scum on any given stumpwagon. That means 1 scum lynched for every 3.5 town we kill. So that's 4.5 people killed every day, worst case scenario. That means our average case scenario would be 1.75 town stumped before we find a scum. Add in one nightkill and Pooky, and that means we have 3.75 town for 2 scum. This leaves us with, on average, 5.25 town alive against our last scum. That means we have approximately 4 mis-stumps on the last day before the scum win. That's a 64% chance of finding scum. Therefore, if we were going to just randomly stump people for the rest of the game, we would have a 64% chance of winning the game. Since we're going to actually use skill to scumhunt, I'd say our chances are better. However, you can't quantify skill into a statistic for mafia. Either way, I think the town's chances in a generic mafia game can be considered "better than random", so I'd be as bold as to say we have a >64% chance of winning

[Mastermind of Sin]

???

[Mastermind of Sin]

Also how many stumps can we have before it turns to LYLO? 3 more? Hmm... 12 players.. minus 3... thats 9... 2 mafia... 7 townies... nope... 3 stumps loses the game... so only two more stumps... huh... Did I count right?

no, I see what you did there - you treated the "7 townies" as "7 man, 2 scum"; like a newbie (

sans

power roles). Here's how it is, assuming all townies stump and no scum do. If 5 more townies stump before any more scum die, we lose. Interestingly, we don't get a softer safety net once one scum dies, since that gain is mitigated by an NK. For example, if we stump 3 townies then catch scum, D3 will open with 1 scum and 3 town; usually classic nolynch debate territory but because of the nature of this game, we'll have 2 shots, so at least a 50-50 chance.

Adele, what do you think of

my

statistics? As far as averages go, at least...

[Mastermind of Sin]

I was fine letting DGB's "theory" slide as a possibility until I saw this gem.

DBG, why do you think adele is scum? Also there is only 2 scum left. Silver can also not be scum as he is innocent when he stumped.

I REPEAT: "Massive Day 1 distancing with Adele, and vice-versa. I bet the farm that Adele is scum #2. Textbook case here." Adele and Quagmire were distancing big time. Especially when you combine the baselessness of Quagmire's "case," and its relentless aggressivity. Adele and Quagmire are buddies. 95% sure, Bayesian calculator in hand (hey, my husband teaches Bayesian statistics to PhD students, so there, I should know, osmotic transfer of knowledge and all).

First off, I want to check what you meant by "Quagmire's 'case'". If you mean the fact that he was trying to get Adele lynched, I think half the people in this game can confirm that he was telling everyone in scumchat he would lynch Adele and then MoS before role pms were even sent out. So of course his "case" against Adele was completely baseless. If you were referring to the case

against

Quagmire, then we have other problems, since it was far from baseless.

So while I agree that there could have been distancing on Adele's part, I don't believe you can call Quagmire's actions "distancing". And Korlash is right that your "theory" applies to me more than it does to him. I was Quagmire's second random wagon target after Adele, and I also saw through his bullshit. So why is Korlash a better target than me?

@ Adele: I really do not believe that you and MoS are the partners but it seems like the best strategy for the scum to do in this "pro-town" game... I mean you two are the two most likely we never really go after and thus you would make the perfect scum.. just hiding waiting for a couple to stump... Like I said I don't feel the need to push it at all... More confident in my JD and Scot pair...

I really have no clue what you are saying here. First off, why would you never go after myself or Adele? Secondly, why does that reason only apply to the two of us and no one else? Thirdly, why do you think we are scumpartners and say that you would never go after us?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Also, V/LA for a week.

[Mastermind of Sin]

So Korlash, because I knew about Quag's predetermined attack that was decided before the game started but did *not* join the Adele wagon, I must not be connected with it, right?

Look, this goes for both you and DGB. Quag should have been modkilled for what he did. He came into a game having decided outside of the game that he and others would bandwagon Adele and myself afterwards. But he wasn't. It's a shame, but maybe the mod felt that it was ok since it was just Day 1, and modkills *do* tend to screw up games. Regardless, just because something was decided on outside the thread does not mean it has any relevance to the thread itself. If DGB refuses to believe that Quag decided the Adele wagon outside the game, why is she not going after JDodge and scotmany? They already knew about the wagon and were ready to go, so clearly Korlash's theory should hold up in DGB's eyes. Yet she is only focusing on Adele and Korlash. Seems odd to me. Her logic is extremely flawed, because scum do NOT always try to distance. Heck, I have been known on several occasions to tell my scumbuddies to avoid major distancing on Day 1. I can't be the only person who does this, so to assume that every scumgroup is going to go balls-to-the-walls distancing on Day 1 is just ludicrous. The theory that they may have been distancing was decent, but DGB is taking this far into extremities. The case just doesn't hold up, from what I see.

[Mastermind of Sin]

If we were supposed to talk about ongoing games, I wouldn't have said he was supposed to be modkilled. Although I suppose you could say that he didn't talk about an ongoing game. Technically, the Adele wagon was decided upon before the game had started, so it wasn't "ongoing", per se. But that's beside the point.

[Mastermind of Sin]

DGB, it's far more compounding the cheating for you to take actions that were based on cheating and analyze them as if they weren't. You're just ruining the game by acting like the actions of cheaters were based on something other than cheating. You're far more guilty of compounding the cheating than anyone else, and I'm not going to stop discussing it until you realize this.

[Mastermind of Sin]

DGB, it's far more compounding the cheating for you to take actions that were based on cheating and analyze them as if they weren't. You're just ruining the game by acting like the actions of cheaters were based on something other than cheating. You're far more guilty of compounding the cheating than anyone else, and I'm not going to stop discussing it until you realize this.

No, I am doing the opposite. I am not taking actions that are based on the cheating of others. Deliberately not taking action based on the cheating of others. I am not analyzing them. The cheating stops here.

You're contradicting yourself.

I replaced into this game and saw Quagmire and Adele went after each other like two super-distancing scumbags on Day 1. That was in-game information, documented, stored on the website server, and an integral part of the game. This, I am obliged to consider. The scumchat garbage, I will ignore.

This post says that you analyzed the actions of Quagmire and Adele. However, Quagmire's actions were based on a predetermined random bandwagon, aka cheating. Therefore, you are categorically analyzing the cheating of others. However, you instead state "I am not analyzing them.", which completely contradicts your later statement.

I repeat. I was not a witness to the cheating. I cannot personally and independently verify the veracity or timing of it, or the information exchanged during its course. I cannot add it to my bag of valid information used to make up my mind. Under no circumstance should I do this. I am here to play Mafia according to the rules of the game. PERIOD.

If everyone had to be a witness to a crime to be able to pass judgement, no one would ever get convicted. You have at least 4 witness who have all been witness to the cheating, so that should be more than enough to pass judgement and realize it was cheating.

I hope that was clear enough.

If you want to discuss until I change my mind about this, you will find that I am as stubborn as you are, so you should consider leaving it at this.

I'm being stubborn because I refuse to let you make cases off bullshit. You're being stubborn for the sake of being stubborn, as far as I can see. You have no logical basis for not relenting this point. If you think that saying you will be stubborn is going to get me to call of the dogs, think again.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I am not contradicting myself. You are completely misunderstanding what I am trying to say. On purpose? I'll let the others decide.

Quagmire's actions were based on a predetermined random bandwagon, aka cheating.

I refuse to consider that the random bandwagon was predetermined. I have no proof of it, or whether it was predetermined, or when the conversation occurred, it was outside of the game, and it should not be allowed into evidence. You say there are witnesses, I don't have witnesses, and I don't give a rat's tutu.

You have witnesses. Off the top of my head, JDodge, myself, AND scotmany are all witnesses to the fact that Quagmire decided this before the game started. That's more people than there are scum, as mith pointed out. This doesn't even really have anything to do with alignment in the first place, though. I'm not trying to arguing for or against anyone's alignment. I'm just trying to stop you from using someone's cheating actions to justify attacking another player. That has nothing to do with anyone's alignment.

Like in a courtroom. It ought to be stricken from the record. Period. I am considering only what I see in the game. Nothing outside the game exists.

If you are striking it from the record, you need to strike the bandwagon as well, which is what I'm trying to get you to do. We can look at this case in two ways.

Case #1: Judging Adele's alignment -

In this case, the bandwagon is evidence. However, this evidence is tainted by out-of-game actions that have no bearing on a person's alignment. Therefore, it should be stricken from the record as being invalid.

Cast #2: Judging whether or not to analyze the bandwagon -

In this case, the bandwagon IS the case, and therefore you

MUST

consider the causes of said bandwagon. You cannot just choose to strike the causes from the bandwagon and make up another cause that you have no proof of. There is proof that directly correlates to the cause of the bandwagon. This cannot be ignored.

What I do see are serious attempts at distancing. Doesn't matter whether Quag or Adele later loosened their death grip on each other. You might very well expect them to, if they realized that the distancing backfiring or getting out of hand.

Adele was on Quag like butter on bread, and stayed on him the whole day. If you want to say she was bussing her partner, fine. However, you cannot use Quag's action of directing a predetermined bandwagon against her as evidence of a mutual distancing plan. I'm not asking you to drop your case against Adele. I'm asking you to remove from your case the evidence that is cleared corrupted through out-of-game influences and can therefore have no indication of alignment.

[Mastermind of Sin]

However, you cannot use Quag's action of directing a predetermined bandwagon against her as evidence of a mutual distancing plan.

BINGO!

Scum don't go bananas distancing each other

according to some plan

. They just do it. Spontaneous scum combustion. It just happens, planned or not. More likely than not, totally unplanned. So, by my criteria, Adele is still scum. Regardless of scumchat monkey business.

So you're willing to say that Quag's Adele-randomwagon had no bearing on his alignment or relationship with her, but her attacks on him were still distancing?

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'd just like to take a second to clarify that even if it

doesn't

qualify as cheating, it's still an out-of-game effect that is not dependent on alignment.

And Mith, I know she didn't, but that's not going to stop me. She's playing semantics to pounce on the fact that I used the word "plan". She's avoiding the issue at hand by strawmanning to tangentially related topics now. So I'm focusing on the issue at hand again.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Yea, I wasn't disagreeing with you, your post just reminded me that other people might need clarification. Same wavelength =P

[Mastermind of Sin]

Adele wants to be a minion.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I smell a fallacy...

[Mastermind of Sin]

I smell a fallacy...

No fallacy at all. As I explained. Most likely two scum distancing; next most likely two townies and the scum is laughing. A townie and a scum? Least likely scenario.

No fallacy.

Actually, I was referring to Adele's post...

On that note,

vacation until Monday

[Mastermind of Sin]

Funny that DGB tries to attack me for an argument I didn't make, since Adele was the person who brought up false dichotomy, not me. It's always fun to poke at the heap and see what pops out...

Cya monday, peeps.

[Mastermind of Sin]

DGB is not actually doing much logical reasoning right now, but I'm almost inclined to agree with Mith that it's just a playstyle quirk, so I'll have to debate with myself for now as to whether she's really scummy or if I should just ignore her. >.< Inclined towards the former, though.

I've played with Korlash before, and he seems to be playing up to par from that game, where he was town. Not getting scum vibes from him at all.

JDodge's logic isn't making a lot of sense, especially this:

...er, are you seriously arguing that it's a *bad* thing for us to lynch scum who refuse to stump?

No. I'm not.

I'm arguing that he could have - feasibly - been trying to trick scot into stumping.

I'd really like JDodge to explain what makes him think d3sisted is scum, rather than, imo, a relative newbie who clearly has no clue what he's talking about. The push against d3s seems artificial at best, perhaps OMGUS in frustration, even. Not particularly liking JDodge.

Mith seems logical to me, and I'm not seeing any agenda behind his posts. Definitely in my protown column at the moment.

Adele I'm also leaning protown on, but that "fangirl" thing keeps haunting me as a possible quick coverup for actual buddying up to mith. Not much, but it's bugging me slightly.

Aimee hasn't posted a lot, but I've agreed with most of what she said. The jury is out on her at the moment.

I'm not liking scotmany's feud with d3sisted right now.

I'm pretty confident in desisted being scum. I would be voting for him even if jdodge was not.(I was the first to do so before silver stumped himself). He comes right out today and votes for jdodge without even considering anything, then when I vote for him he calls it an omgus. He is just going for the easy lynch. He did that yesterday, and he is trying to do that today with jdodge.

I don't really see how JDodge is the "easy" lynch, since not many people seem to suspect him overly much. I also want your opinion on why you think d3sisted is scum instead of just a bad newbie.

Yes, but out of everyone on the wagon, he looks like the one who bussed.

Why do you think he looked like he was bussing over, say, Max/DGB?

Unsure of scotmany at this point.

I really get the feeling right now that d3sisted is a bad newbie, but I don't have prior experience with him to tell for sure. He's in the middle right now.

So, my scumdar (scummiest to towniest):

DGB
JDodge
scotmany
d3sisted
Adele
Aimee
Mith
Korlash

Vote: DGB

[Mastermind of Sin]

Adele I'm also leaning protown on, but that "fangirl" thing keeps haunting me as a possible quick coverup for actual buddying up to mith. Not much, but it's bugging me slightly.

Do you think Adele might be buddying up to mith at as a scum buddying up to a townie, or as scum buddying up to her scumbuddy?

Since I listed Mith as likely town, you shouldn't have to ask this question.

It keeps "haunting you" yet at the same time it's only bugging you "slightly." Your wording is a little odd, care to explain further? Thanks.

It's just two different ways of quantifying it, DGB. It's bugging me slightly, as in not much, but still a little bit. It's also haunting me, as in it doesn't go away, so it's still there. But just

slightly

. Is that clear enough for you?

[Mastermind of Sin]

The reason I was asking is that personally, that comment of Adele's does nothing for me, either way. I don't think it's evidence of anything. Admittedly we look for, and see, different signs. But I don't think

that

would be considered scummy in any book.

See, I was thinking the same thing at first. I don't think she was lying about it either way, but it occurred to me that making the fangirl comment would be a convenient coverup for the pressure you were putting on her about buddying up to mith. You certainly haven't talked much about it since then, as I recall it, so it seems to have worked, no?

It's almost as if YOU are trying to buddy up to mith - more than Adele, and in a more game-oriented manner, while finding a reason to cast some suspicion on Adele.

Maybe I don't understand. Why are Adele's comments buddying up to mith, but yours aren't? It's probably a subtle difference, I look forward to your explanation.

You're misunderstanding the point. I'm not claiming the fangirl comment was her buddying up to mith. I'm claiming that it was a coverup, a convenient out-of-game defense against

your

accusations that she was buddying up to him. If she felt pressure from your attacks, it's a good diversion, making it seem like her "buddying up" was a result of a fangirl-ish fascination. That's why it's nagging at me.

As for mith, there's not much to say about it. I have agreed with nearly everything he's said so far, with the exception of, say, the Korlash attack. However, I have a protown read on Korlash because I have experience playing with him before. I may be one of the few people in this game with that experience, and I don't think mith is one of them. Therefore, I can't really hold it against him that he initially thought Korlash was scummy. I sure as hell know I did in that first game. Luckily I nailed Streeflo instead (^5 Korlash).

Because Adele is in love with me, clearly.

...at least, I

hope

MoS isn't in love with me too.

Unvote

for the moment. I am feeling different about Korlash today, and I'm trying to figure out why.

Hmm *checks* Nope, no love here. NO LOVE FOR MITH.

Knowing d3sisted, I'm leaning towards scum

What experience do you have playing with d3sisted that allows you to *know* him?

When I made mistakes as town, I was never viewed as a newbie. It was always thought to be a scumtell. How come when both silver and desisted do something wrong they can be viewed as a "confused townie?" I know I am not a newbie, but how come when I do something wrong I get attacked for it? Also, desisted has been around since august. That is three months. I'm pretty sure he would know what would be good for the town and not.

No offense intended here, but you *did* give the overall impression of being more intelligent than either of them when you were a newbie.

Max could have definitely bussed as well, but overall, desisted has done more scummy things, so right now he is ahead of max(now dgb). Now he went after me and jdodge at the start of the day because we were against the lynch against quag. He did not even consider anything. Secondly, I just realized this. Korlash was also against the lynch, and yet desisted forgets to mention him at all and just focused on me and jdodge.

Korlash was not against Quag's death. He was against a quicklynch on page 3 (and the other early pages). Those are two fundamentally different things, but you are confusing them together to be the same view you and JDodge held.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Uhh, then who was pressuring her about buddying up to mith? I could've sworn it came up *before* she made the fangirl comment. *checks*

[Mastermind of Sin]

Found it. Sorry, it was mith who mentioned the buddying up. That actually bumps Adele up a notch for me, because I think she would be more worried about mith suspecting her than you (DBG). If she was trying to buddy up to him, she would want to defuse his suspicion with something like that, I think.

which brings me to:

I do actually find Adele slightly suspect - mostly because I've noticed several buddying-up type comments directed my way

yeah, I was kinda expecting that.
OK. I'm embarrased to admit it, but I do have a weisd (small) fangirl thing towards you ("The Mith; The Legend"), and then right when I'm worried Quag's slipping by you came into the game like a bloody Knight and flipped totally from BB's behaviour to getting him dead.
And now I'm all Sandra Bullock-y. It's very annoying, I half expect to spill coffee over you or something.
I'll try to dial it back. If you could say something I strongly disagree with, that'd help .

(by the way, if this is ever mentioned after the game ends lives will be lost )

Adele moves up one.

DGB
JDodge
scotmany
Adele
d3sisted
Aimee
Mith
Korlash

[Mastermind of Sin]

=D And I am at the center of it! I feel all warm and cuddly for some reason.. if only Pooky was here...

As the official Huggle Alliance representative in this game... *huggles*

[Mastermind of Sin]

NO U

[Mastermind of Sin]

You're already voting her, actually. Leftover from Max being alive...

[Mastermind of Sin]

9 players living -> 5 to lynch;

DGB is at L-2

, ie the

stump danger zone

. No-one else vote for DGB.

MoS: why didn't you say when you voted for DGB that it was L-2?

I didn't put 2 and 2 together. I realized in one part of my mind that Aimee and yourself were already voting him, but I didn't combine that knowledge with checking to see if she had enough votes. I guess I was still stuck in Lynch mode, instead of thinking about stumps. Too many games, I suppose.

Also MoS: yes, mith said he suspected me because I was behaving like X, and I wanted to explain why I was behaving like X to dispel his concerns. Defending one's behaviour when someone else's suspicions are raised by that behaviour is not susicious, it's normal mafia play. Unless, of course, you think I was lying - but I hardly think I'm the only person on the forum to think of mith as a VIP or find him charismatic.

It wasn't really the defense. It was just the content and way it was presented that made me suspicious. This could very well be the only reason you buddied up to him, but it seemed somewhat suspicious.

[Mastermind of Sin]

d3sisted, that post makes no sense at all. Townies sometimes vote other townies (implying that the rest of the time they are voting scum), but scum always vote other townies. Unless they're bussing. Didn't you just list all the possibilities for both scum and town? What's the point in saying that they all do that? That's rather obvious, and it doesn't prove anything.

[Mastermind of Sin]

What *was* your original point, then? It's not coming through, clearly.

[Mastermind of Sin]

You're going to have to rephrase it. Quoting the original post that

caused the confusion we're trying to sort out

is clearly not going to fix anything...

[Mastermind of Sin]

For those of you not voting DGB, can you please state your position regarding her? She's in stump territory now (as I have been reminded of, thanks to that), so I feel it's important to be clear on everyone's position regarding DGB in order to avoid any ill-informed actions both on her part or others'.

Mith, you've already made your position clear, so no need to repeat. I don't remember who else has even commented on her lately. Korlash/D3s/Scot/JDodge seem to be so absorbed in their argument that I don't remember them commenting on her at all lately. I could be misremembering, though, but I'd rather have the record straight now than later.

[Mastermind of Sin]

DGB, I'm not ignoring Aimee. I'm waiting for her to say some more substantial things that I could even make comments about. I'm modding a game that she is in, so I know that she hasn't really been around to post lately, because I keep having to prod her. When I know she's here and I see her posting, maybe I'll have something to say. The jury's still out until she gets back into the game.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Korlash, do you really believe DGB to be protown?

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'm wary of DGB because a game like this strikes me as one where insanity (as opposed to stupidity, in the case of Quagmire) could be a highly effective strategy for scum. Since every lynch can swing the numbers highly in the scum's favor, everyone is wary about lynching, and it's a lot easier to force a stump than a lynch. Since scum are obviously not going to actually stump, the town has to get up the guts to actually go through and lynch them. Insanity such as this gives me a headache (I don't know about you, but it does for me), and it's hard to tell apart the sincere from the scummy. As such, I think it's a very effective strategy for a scum player to employ in this setup. On top of that, Max's play Day 1 seemed easily in the "bussing" category.

I'll try to add some more later, after the holidays.

Starting to see your point about Korlash (especially the switch to aimee and buddying up to DGB). Interested in seeing his response. Mith, if you get a chance, check out Newbie 471. Korlash was town there, and that's what I was basing my read off of. The only real difference I see is that Korlash has been willing to concede points in arguments when he's talked to people in this game. That's not something he did in 471, but it's possible that he's adjusted himself since then. Is it something he did in the newbie game where he was scum?

[Mastermind of Sin]

It might be worth mentioning that MoS has made it his mission to "policy lynch" me in every game. Therefore, his vote is just an automatic one-vote handicap for me. This kind of poor sportsmanship disappoints me greatly, but hey, c'est la vie. I refuse to engage in any sort of out-of-game feuding with MoS or anyone, and will not respond with tit-for-tat.

My comments in this game are independent of any vendetta to remove DGB from other games I am in with her. I would not pursue such a plan in a game that not only progressed far enough that we need to get serious, but also has a setup that makes each lynch/stump worth much more than most games.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Also note that the post in question that DGB is trying to dismiss didn't really make any mention of her playstyle or any sort of vendetta to try and eliminate her from the game. The word "insanity" came from

Mith

, not myself, when describing her. I merely took the word he used to describe her and explained why I felt it could indicate scum in this game. Not only did I actually make an objective argument about how scum would play in this game, but I did not introduce any of my own feelings about DGB as part of my arguments. The fact that she is trying to dismiss the argument entirely based on something completely different that I've done in other games merely increases my suspicion of her.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Uhh, Korlash, didn't Mith

oppose

the DGB lynch?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Really? I have like 3 reasons not to vote me. 1) As Adele pointed out I don;t really answer anything. And so voting me won't exactly help. It will however lead to 2) higher chance of a stump. Me stumping is not a bad thing but it is likely to happen whether I, you, or anyone else does or does not want it too. Unless you would rather #) ME being lynched. Quick lynched from the scum? Didn't happen to DGB why would it happen to me right? Unless I did something stupid like not stump and let you lynch me thus giving the scum another NK they would not have had... Interesting...

These 3 reasons seem more like 3 reasons TO vote you. #1 is just a threat and seems to indicate to me that you are being backed into a corner. Instead of just responding reasonably to everyone's questions, you're going around with an "I don't care what you say or do, I'm not going to be helpful" attitude. This sort of attitude is not something you exhibited when I last saw you as protown. You were always willing to respond to what people had to say, almost to a fault. Now it seems like you're trying to get people to say "Well, he's not actually going to give us material to go off of, we'd better focus on someone else instead."

Reason #2 has already been addressed. Threatening to stump means nothing, because scum can do it, too. Begging someone to let you stump is just a bunch of empty words until you actually do it. It seems that you and DGB both are throwing around a lot of empty words to that effect.

Reason #3 doesn't mean anything either. If you are scum, you're not going to stump. Therefore, we should lynch you. If you are town and don't stump, then you've made a grave error in your own play that we cannot account for. We shouldn't have to

worry

about you being lynched, because the only possible way to actually lynch you is if you are scum, since any protown person would stump first.

I think you're bluffing.

Unvote, Vote: Korlash

You'd better start talking.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Aw, Korlash, you half-baked Alaska... I came too late. I would have told you not to stump.

I think MoS was pushing YOU

precisely because

you're stump happy! And when MoS said "you better start talking" what did that mean? Claim a role??? It's not like you weren't talking. Sure, a lot of it was nonsense, but if I knew your heart was in the right place, how come the others didn't? I'm not psychic. It just was obvious, that's all.

What about Adele? First, she pushes hard on me (sweeeet), but then... she pushes hard on you... taking everything you say SERIOUSLY. How can anyone in their right mind take what you say seriously? Except the part about stumping fantasies.

Do bear with us and delight us with more Korlashery.

Is scot the one that wouldn't stump? Whoever doesn't want to stump gets my vote.

First off, whatever happened to "Korlash is Adele's obv scumbuddy"? You completely change your tune because he followed your Aimee vote and threatened to stump prematurely? If it was so obvious he was town, why did you spend most of your time in this game saying he was scum? I'm not buying it. It seems more like you felt he was going to prematurely stump and, knowing he was town, decided to say he was town while he got wagoned so you could say "I told you so" afterwards. I didn't think you were town before, and this response after Korlash's stumping seems contrived.

Vote: DGB

Also, I would think that "you'd better start talking" was a perfectly clear statement. In the same post where I voted him, I talked about how Korlash was being difficult on purpose and not answering the questions people were asking him. Therefore, "you'd better start talking" was clearly a request for him to stop being obstinate and answer the questions posed to him. To which he responded by stumping with no more than 3 people supporting his death. *shakes head*

[Mastermind of Sin]

Korlash, the reason I called you most town is because you were acting the same as you did in the Newbie game I played with you. Then you did something that was not only scummy but a very stark contrast from that game where you were town. That made you a prime suspect, because all the reasoning I had for you to be town was made invalid.

[Mastermind of Sin]

These 3 reasons seem more like 3 reasons TO vote you. #1 is just a threat and seems to indicate to me that you are being backed into a corner. Instead of just responding reasonably to everyone's questions, you're going around with an "I don't care what you say or do, I'm not going to be helpful" attitude.

This sort of attitude is not something you exhibited when I last saw you as protown.

You were always willing to respond to what people had to say, almost to a fault. Now it seems like you're trying to get people to say "Well, he's not actually going to give us material to go off of, we'd better focus on someone else instead."

Emphasis mine. Stop skimming, Korlash.

[Mastermind of Sin]

MoS is another matter altogether. He's been cavalier, not scum-hunting, and showed up to slap Korlash with a third vote. At first MoS thought Korlash "most town" but his ship made a 180 degree turn just after Adele cast her second vote.

The fact that my vote came after Adele's is purely because I did not have a chance to post in the thread between the time that Korlash made the post I voted him for and when Adele voted. My vote did not have any relation to hers and I made my own arguments based on a post that came before her vote, so your assertion that there is anything to be taken from the fact that I cast my vote "just after Adele cast her second vote" is completely baseless, DGB.

Anyone that wanted to crucify Korlash would have no problem doing it, because hey, he was scummy. But I have a problem with that in the sense that they are hiding behind rigid scumtells and perhaps purposefully choosing to remove the art from the scumhunt. And since I think MoS knows better, I find him to be by far the most scummy in the trio of Korlash voters. For that reason, his timing, and the abrupt nature of his turnaround.

I don't look for rigid scumtells, for the most part. I disdain relying completely on generic tells that do not apply to individual people. I look for differences in behavior from game to game and contradictions in the player's actions, as well as how they might react as scum. I explained quite clearly how Korlash's behavior went from protown to scummy. You seem to have a problem with the fact that I abandoned my theory that Korlash was protown when the entirety of the argument I made for him being protown was shown to be false. That's not a very rational position to take.

[Mastermind of Sin]

your assertion that there is anything to be taken from the fact that I cast my vote "just after Adele cast her second vote" is completely baseless, DGB.

It's not MY assertion; it's mith's: "He might be trying to link himself strongly to Adele" - so my line of questioning was more in the direction of "if that's true, then why does mith say this instead of that?" and I asked Adele's opinion. And since Adele appeared to be confused by my request, I specified that the situation under discussion was not one where she'd leaned on you, but rather, the other way around.

This might be true if it weren't for the fact that you made mention of it

before

mith did. You said "At first MoS thought Korlash "most town" but his ship made a 180 degree turn just after Adele cast her second vote" right before mith's post about my possible linkage to Adele. So don't try to play this one off onto Mith, DGB. That was your assertion, not his.

[Mastermind of Sin]

This might be true if it weren't for the fact that you made mention of it

before

mith did. You said "At first MoS thought Korlash "most town" but his ship made a 180 degree turn just after Adele cast her second vote" right before mith's post about my possible linkage to Adele. So don't try to play this one off onto Mith, DGB. That was your assertion, not his.

Not quite. I did not interpret this as "leaning on Adele" or "buddying up to Adele" but rather, as an opportunistic vote. She wrote out her case, then you jumped on the chance to put Korlash within stumping range.

Mith saw this as you linking yourself to her.

Me, I saw it as a good opportunity for you to pile up one more vote on a stump-happy player.

The linkage bit is still very much mith's idea.

I do assert that something can "be taken from the fact" that you cast your vote "just after Adele cast her second vote." But not for the exact same reasons as mith's.

I can't understand why the distinction matters so much anyway. Is it helping find scum???

But we're talking about

your

assertion, not Mith's. I never mentioned his idea, only yours. So why did you try to brush the matter aside by focusing on Mith's theory?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Likely/leaning scum:

DGB - should be obvious how I feel by now
JDodge - I still don't like his arguments against d3sisted, his easy support for the DGB wagon, and how earlier he said both Max and d3sisted looked bad on the Quag wagon and then switched to saying that it was mostly d3sisted that was scummy for it instead of both.
scotmany - similar reasons as JDodge (argument with d3sisted), but scotmany looks more sincere when he posts, so he's almost down to neutral

Neutral/Leaning Protown:

Adele - still not satisfied about the "fangirl" incident, but her posting since then hasn't pinged my radar
Aimee - lurked early but was V/LA, and the more recent posts make me feel better about her
d3sisted - off my radar, I need to look at him more. Still seems to just not know what he's talking about, rather than being scum.

Likely Protown:

Mith - seems very sincere in his posting even if I don't always agree, and I'm not seeing a hidden agenda anywhere, either

[Mastermind of Sin]

Bah, I lost this post so I'm trying to recreate it.

Anyway, it was scotmany, not JDodge, who had favored Max and then dropped it for d3sisted. My bad.

This Quagwagon reeks of opportunism from some of its less vocal members like d3sisted and Max.

I find myself agreeing with Jdodge on this, more so with Max than with d3sisted.

Talking about d3sisted:

Yes, but out of everyone on the wagon, he looks like the one who bussed.

Why do you think he looked like he was bussing over, say, Max/DGB?

So scotmany moves up a little bit in suspicion and JDodge move down as a result of the mixup. JDodge is still on top of scotmany in the list, though.

I'm also still looking for answers to this question from scotmany or JDodge.

I'm pretty confident in desisted being scum. I would be voting for him even if jdodge was not.(I was the first to do so before silver stumped himself). He comes right out today and votes for jdodge without even considering anything, then when I vote for him he calls it an omgus. He is just going for the easy lynch. He did that yesterday, and he is trying to do that today with jdodge.

I don't really see how JDodge is the "easy" lynch, since not many people seem to suspect him overly much. I also want your opinion on why you think d3sisted is scum instead of just a bad newbie.

JDodge, I have a problem with your easy support of the DGB wagon because you've barely given your opinion of DGB/Max all game.

This Quagwagon reeks of opportunism from some of its less vocal members like d3sisted and Max.

Unvote, vote: d3sisted

The Quagmire wagon is driven by two things IMO - a so-called "policy lynch" which is hypocritical but not necessarily scummy, and the opportunists like d3sisted and Max who just want a lynch so they can make use of one of their very few possible nightkill attempts. I'm willing to bet SP is the third scum, too, but the case on d3sisted compels me.

Which is basically the same thing about Max as you said in the last post.

DGB, seeing as Aimee is scummy for being outside of your so-called conflicts, why is Adele your number 2 suspect and not me?

I could potentially go for a DGB wagon, based on the way she's associating with Korlash

So you've said about 3 things regarding DGB/Max all game, and you wonder why I have a problem with you supporting her wagon?

DGB - should be obvious how I feel by now
JDodge - I still don't like his arguments against d3sisted, his easy support for the DGB wagon, and how earlier he said both Max and d3sisted looked bad on the Quag wagon and then switched to saying that it was mostly d3sisted that was scummy for it instead of both.

Please provide supporting evidence. Please explain in great detail why JDodge is scum. Please explain in great detail why I'm scum. Please explain in great detail why JDodge and I are buddies.

See, that's the difference between you and I. 9 times out of 10, I don't accuse people of being someone's scumbuddy unless I know the first person is scum. I

believe

you are scum, but I don't know it. I know Quag was scum, so the only logical parallels I can draw are to him. You and JDodge are scummy independently of each other. I may be wrong about one of you. Just because you two are my top picks for scum does not in any way imply that you

have

to be scumbuddies. It's entirely possible that if one of you was lynched and came up scum, that evidence would lead me to conclude someone else was scum and not the other one of you. That's something I'll have to deal with when it happens. Right now, I'm trying to find Quag's scumbuddy, not your scumbuddy or JDodge's scumbuddy. Not until one of you is dead. See, you're trying to force me to commit to something I never said, DGB. That's not really improving my opinion of your alignment. On top of everything else you've done, you're trying to manipulate and twist what I've said to implicate something entirely different.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I see why your suspicions changed now, but I disagree. However, that stems from the fact that we fundamentally disagree on whether or not d3sisted knows what the heck he's doing.

As for JDodge being the easy lynch, I still don't think any of you were as bad as SilverPhoenix from Day 1. To call JDodge the easy lynch is really an overstatement, imo.

[Mastermind of Sin]

^^^scum.

[Mastermind of Sin]

wow i totally did not expect DGB to buddy up to the confirmed innocent

What now that i am confirmed we can no longer be buddies? Make more sense scum!

It's a pretty good copout for scum.

[Mastermind of Sin]

This being said I'm rather pleased with Korlash's choice of vote. JDodge and MoS are all up in arms suddenly. I expected them to keep their cool. Guess not! Very surprising and interesting reaction.

Please explain this statement.

[Mastermind of Sin]

MoS, who is number two on your list right now? (I am assuming DGB is still 1?)

JDodge, followed by scotmany.

I agree with Mith's plan, and I think Adele's post doesn't actually make a lot of sense to me. Having an inactive stump in mith's plan would be the same as having an inactive live player, but with less drawbacks. I'm assuming we can still ask for prods on stumped players, so if they disappear we can still get them back. Adele's post seems like a shoddy plan to try and stop mith's from going into action. She's definitely moved up on the suspicion list with that one (into the scummy section as opposed to neutral, but still below scotmany for the time being).

[Mastermind of Sin]

This being said I'm rather pleased with Korlash's choice of vote. JDodge and MoS are all up in arms suddenly. I expected them to keep their cool. Guess not! Very surprising and interesting reaction.

Please explain this statement.

Sure, hun.

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 903#851903
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 936#851936

Those quotes don't at all explain how I was being "up in arms

suddenly

" or how I did not "keep [my] cool". I'm asking for an explanation, and you didn't give me that.

[Mastermind of Sin]

To me what DGB's doing is similar to what I felt Quag and Kor were doing. However, while Quag was scum, Kor wasn't, and DGB's probably more similar in nature to Kor than Quag. So instead of pushing her

for

this, I'm gonna yell at her to darn well change and then get back to the question of "is she scummy?"

This seems to me like an attempt to back down from your DGB attacks and get on her good side right as people get a little more suspicious of you. The timing doesn't feel right, and you know damn well that DGB would never do something as

stupid

as changing her playstyle to benefit the town, so it's an exercise in futility. This doesn't feel sincere at all coming from you.

FoS: Adele

So the question is, why does Adele-scum no longer like the DGB wagon? Why is she trying to back down from it? After a divestment from the wagon, where would she go, who would she take the opportunity to pressure instead? Interesting...

[Mastermind of Sin]

This seems to me like an attempt to back down from your DGB attacks and get on her good side right as people get a little more suspicious of you.

PROVE that people are more suspicious of Adele. I see no evidence of that. Show me.

For example, I expressed suspicion of her for her posts regarding Mith's plan. As a result, I feel it is *possible* that she felt threatened somewhat (believing this to be the start of an upswing in suspicion against her) and wanted to get on your good side (being the main proponent of Adele-suspicion for most of the game) by unvoting. It seems to have worked, unsurprisingly. Of course, that all requires you to be town, although this could be a distancing scheme between you two.

So the question is, why does Adele-scum no longer like the DGB wagon? Why is she trying to back down from it? After a divestment from the wagon, where would she go, who would she take the opportunity to pressure instead? Interesting...

The REAAAAL question is, why is Mastermind of Sin browbeating other players to continue voting for me, lest they get voted off themselves?

I'm not doing that at all. I'm suspicious of Adele's change in position regarding you, and I want a reasonable explanation of her actions. What she's said so far doesn't cut it.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Didn't my decrease in Adele-suspicion precede her unvoting me? If so, then it can't be said that she unvoted me to butter me up.

Did it? I haven't noticed you giving her a friendly eye until now, can you quote examples? I may have totally missed it, but I haven't really seen you say anything about thinking she was less scummy.

On top of that, why can't she butter you up in order to keep on your good side (assuming you provide examples for the first question)?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Didn't my decrease in Adele-suspicion precede her unvoting me? If so, then it can't be said that she unvoted me to butter me up.

Did it? I haven't noticed you giving her a friendly eye until now, can you quote examples?

You have to infer my decrease in suspicions from my lack of going after her, and going after others. But here is a quotable hint here:

So while I consider [Adele's] actual actions with Korlash to be scummy, I have to say that [she dpesn't] give the appearance of having played it dishonestly.

On top of that, why can't she butter you up in order to keep on your good side[...]?

Yeah, she might, but that's not what you said. You said there was a causal relationship between her unvote post, and a purported change of attitude from me. That's not the case.

Actually, there were two separate points, and you lumped them together in one point to try and discredit them both just because one was wrong. I first speculated on the motives behind her unvote post, then I also speculated that your attitude towards her might have been a result of said post. The first point is still quite valid.

[Mastermind of Sin]

1. Are people getting suspicious of me? It seems to be about the same as always to me - little ups and downs, some folk trust me more, some less - nothing to make me panic
2. My point's exactly the same as yours from earlier - that it's a tough read because acting like a crazy person is not necessarily scummy for DGB. It pisses me off some, but I don't want the game to go down the toilet because I'm off having a paddy.
3. Why is changing playstyle to benefit town stupid, if she's town? I'm trying to give her the opportunity to demonstrate her townieness to me - I'm most certainly not giving her a free card.

To conclude: Wuh? Your argument makes no sense to me.

I've checked back, and I really only think one person expressed a higher level of suspicion of me shortly prior to my unvote - you. So if that was making me nervous, why would I jump off someone you want dead?

You *do* realize that DGB already discussed this point before you made either of these posts and that between us we've already covered nearly everything you said, right?

I pointed out that DGB was a tough read, but I didn't just use that as a reason to vote or unvote her. I only mentioned that point to explain why I had not made a full opinion on DGB yet. I later posted an explanation of why I think her playstyle is probably coming from scum. You're just citing her as a "tough read" after you've been going after her for most of the day, and I'm not really seeing a reason for you to have changed your mind. I don't see a case here.

What is #3 talking about? I have no clue what you're referring to.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Ohhh.. sure now he thinks of scot as scum... Boo! Your scummy lies will get you nowhere! Death to the non-believers! Death to the lumberjacks! Death to anyone who hates cheese!... >.>

To be fair, JD said he could see scot as a possible scum quite some time ago, when Mith questioned him on it.

Also why would buddying up to confirmed innocents be a scum action? I mean it does you no real good when you think about it. It should be "Buddying up to anyone" duh... Lynch whoever said it. Mos and JD I think... Have to reread to find that out...

Town have no reason to buddy up to confirmed innocents. Just because they are confirmed does not make them

right

. It is not in the town's best interests to just follow around and do whatever the confirmed innocent says. It's just that what they say

means more

now that they're confirmed. But that's not what DGB was doing.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Well, no one "buddies" up to other people quite like they do with confirmed innocents. Buddying is always something to watch out for, but when someone is confirmed innocent, scum often think that they have an easily defensible position to hide behind even if they get attacked for following the confirmed innocent. So it's a slightly different situation than other instances of buddying up.

[Mastermind of Sin]

What is #3 talking about? I have no clue what you're referring to

I didn't get this:

you know damn well that DGB would never do something as

stupid

as changing her playstyle to benefit the town

*facepalm*

Does someone else want to field this one? I need to go bash my head into a wall. Excuse me.

[Mastermind of Sin]

DGB, could you please give me your opinion of Mith so far this game?

[Mastermind of Sin]

DGB, how do you feel about scotmany and d3sisted, individually?

[Mastermind of Sin]

So scotmany makes no sense and you disagree with him. That doesn't tell me much about what you think his alignment is. Can you clarify where he stands compared to other players?

Not trying to distract from anything. Just doing some scumhunting.

And seriously, get a grip on yourself, DGB. This is only one of two games I'm even voting you in right now. I'm not even attacking you in most of the others, so there is no universal conclusion that you are scum in every game, thanks.

[Mastermind of Sin]

scotmany12, what are you smoking, and what game are you playing???

You think MoS is town??? What has he done to give

that

impression?

Why do you only say this to scotmany and not Mith, who also stated that he had picked up town tells from me? Why single out scotmany?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Korlash, I have been saying things about JDodge and scotmany. We spent a lot of time talking about that, remember? Now I'm questioning DGB because I saw some questionable behavior. It's not like I'm ignoring the JD/scot situation, but I just recently told everyone how I felt, so I don't feel the need to make every one of my posts about those two, thanks.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'll humor MoS's question anyway. Mith's post made sense overall. Scotmany's didn't make sense overall. That's the diff.

So because you agreed with the rest of Mith's post, you didn't question him on the one thing you didn't understand? However, since scotmany had several things wrong with his post, you decided to question it?

[Mastermind of Sin]

So because you agreed with the rest of Mith's post, you didn't question him on the one thing you didn't understand? However, since scotmany had several things wrong with his post, you decided to question it?

Pretty much exactly! It was a trivial aside for mith, but it was like 30% of scot's counterintuitive post. I think you're really on to something big! You might have just cracked the game. Perhaps you'd like to nitpick on the percentage next? I'm all for it.

God forbid you should pay attention to any other player but me. If you did I might get so jealous as to track you down and slash your tires. Don't let yourself be distracted by, like, the game. Stay focused.

It seems hardly trivial. For someone who prides herself on picking up every strange or scummy thing a player does, no matter how big or small, it seems odd that you would not question mith about it. I've seen you attack players that are practically confirm innocent, yet you aren't willing to question mith's statements? It seems off to me and likely that you are trying not to bump elbows with him since he's on your side at the moment.

[Mastermind of Sin]

DGB, I do not have a vendetta against you. If anything, it is you who now has a vendetta against me, because you accuse me of having a vendetta against you whenever I vote you even if I've presented a case against you, which I have in this game.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I did a little searching, and I found this quote to illustrate what I was referring to:

Alignment aside, who else can be relied upon to bark at

every tree

and keep the scum on the edge of their seats?

Thank you for playing the semantics game, DGB! I'm sorry, but you haven't won a prize this evening. Charlie, tell her what she would've won! "Well, MoS, the winner this evening would receive a paid cruise to the Bahamas, where they can chillax and try to make sense of their life!" Please come and join us next time, on "Useless arguments that don't really mean anything", hosted by yours truly, MoS!

Why are you voting JDodge if you have a hard time reading him? As for the three of them, I've said my piece. There are still things I'm not convinced about JDodge and scotmany, especially JDodge. That's why, you know,

they're high on my suspicion list

...d'oh!

[Mastermind of Sin]

Wow, you agree with my evaluation, big surprise. Maybe it's because I'm

actually town

...I know, right? You never thought that would ever be an option, did you?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Wow, you agree with my evaluation, big surprise. Maybe it's because I'm

actually town

...I know, right? You never thought that would ever be an option, did you?

I hate to tell you, but don't get too comfy. You are my TOP scum suspect, for having voted ONLY townies, and possibly obvbus'ed Quagmire.

@ Korlash
I'd like this order:
JD, MoS, scot, then Korlash again(have you fantasized about double-stumping?)

No one here has voted more scum than I have, unless you've voted everyone in the game. Since we don't know who the scum is, you can't make that kind of assertion. But of course, you know that, and decided that it was better to use propaganda to try and get me lynched instead of actually making a proper analysis that was useful to everyone else. Using yourself as a control variable is not a logical method, since no one knows your alignment except you and your scumbuddy. The rest of us cannot be 100% sure either way, so you cannot be a control factor

by definition

. So one can only conclude that this is another attempt at raising suspicion on myself through propaganda instead of actual logic. I voted Quagmire and made some good arguments for him to be scum. I've also been wrong twice since then. So have a lot of people, since it takes multiple votes for someone to stump. I haven't voted very many people because you've been in my top 2 suspects for most of Day 2. If you give me

any

reason to believe that you are protown, or even more protown than one other player, I'd change my vote. But I'm not seeing anything like that from you.

[Mastermind of Sin]

And yet you agree with my analysis of JD and scotmany. Lolz.

[Mastermind of Sin]

So because I never voted someone, what? What are you implying by the fact that I never voted them? That I don't suspect them? That I would be unwilling to lynch them? A vote is supposed to indicate who your top suspect is at any given time, unless compromises are made with the interests of deadlines and other such circumstances. We have not had any circumstances that require compromising my vote in this game, so that has not been an issue. JDodge and scotmany were never my #1 suspect, so I have not voted them. However, I am still very concerned with what I've pointed out in JDodge's behavior, and I haven't seen a good response yet. If I am still convinced that he is probably scum after his response, I may actually vote him. But considering that I've already heard your responses to my case against you, and wasn't satisfied, you are still my number one suspect.

Oh, and no, you can't ask me a question. >_>

kidding...

hmm, am I allowed to use mini-text for non-important comments?
I can't find it clearly in the rules...please don't hurt me!

Mod Edit: I don't care whether you use small text or not.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I believe JDodge is more likely scum out of the two of them, because scotmany seems a lot more sincere when he posts, even though they both have similar problems. JDodge's repsonses seem, well, dodgy. But seriously, there are a lot more discrepancies in JDodge's posting than scotmany's. Look at some of my previous analysis where I point them out.

[Mastermind of Sin]

scotmany's defense of the quagmire defense and the d3sisted vote is what I find more sincere about him, DGB.

I'm going to be V/LAish for a week cuz of finals.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Adel, DGB requested replacement in all her games. That's your meta information.

JDodge, please respond to mith's points in detail. Trying to avoid them is not making you look good to me.

[Mastermind of Sin]

DGB's actions condemn The Fonz somewhat for me, because I can't just shrug off what she's done, but I look forward to his contribution as a new view on the game. It will take some doing to convince me that he's protown, but it's not impossible. Still waiting on JDodge's responses as well. I'd like scotmany to explain why he's followed JDodge in nearly every vote this game. I'd also like Adel to explain why it took scotmany pressuring her for her to explain why she switched votes. Why couldn't you explain it when you first voted him?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Mith, now do you see why I am concerned about DGB's play overall? This sentence of yours sums up a huge concern of mine:

That play makes perfect sense for the DGB/scot pairing JDodge suggested (but also for the "I'm nuts" play that we love so much from DGB).

[Mastermind of Sin]

The Fonz, what do you think of Mith's recent revelation that the point about scotmany following JDodge is not actually strictly true, and that scotmany actually voted D3sisted while JDodge was voting SilverPhoenix, and he just happened to revote after JDodge after SP stumped? Also, thanks for updating us on your suspicions, but could you go into more detail eventually about your suspicions? I'd especially like to hear why you think Mith/Adel are connected to JD/Scot.

[Mastermind of Sin]

The Fonz, what do you think of Mith's recent revelation that the point about scotmany following JDodge is not actually strictly true, and that scotmany actually voted D3sisted while JDodge was voting SilverPhoenix, and he just happened to revote after JDodge after SP stumped?

That's not a revelation. That's an argument, and not a convincing one imho. There remains considerable evidence that a) JDodge and Scotmany have held almost indistinguishable positions throughout the game, and b) that JDodge has gone in particular directions before Scot, as a general rule. Our friend Adel provides us with the vote list from D1:

It is fact, not an argument. Adel's list does not reflect day changes or stumpings.

Actions by jdodge:

* jdodge votes adele in post 33
* jdodge unvotes in post 70
* jdodge votes silverphoenix in post 70
* jdodge unvotes in post 180
* jdodge votes d3sisted in post 180
* jdodge votes silverphoenix in post 209
* jdodge votes d3sisted in post 238
* jdodge votes d3sisted in post 662

Actions by scotmany12:

* scotmany12 votes adele in post 28
* scotmany12 unvotes in post 97
* scotmany12 votes silverphoenix in post 97
* scotmany12 votes d3sisted in post 206
* scotmany12 votes d3sisted in post 239
* scotmany12 votes desisted in post 791

So, both follow Quagmire onto Adele. JDodge moves onto SilverPhoenix, post 70. Scot goes to SP in 97. JDodge goes to D3 in 180, followed by Scot moving to d3sisted in 206, at which point of course JD is still voting D3. JD unvotes and then goes to SilverPhoenix for a while before returning, before returning to D3sisted, whilst Scot stays on d3sisted.[/quote]

Scot voting SP in 97 was on Day 1, I believe, but he voted d3sisted on Day 2. On top of that, JDodge voted SilverPhoenix until SilverPhoenix stumped. He did not unvote and return to d3sisted. Scotmany clearly held his own opinion that d3sisted was scummier than SilverPhoenix. JDodge, on the other hand, went after SilverPhoenix first, and put d3sisted on top again

after SP was dead

. Your analysis does not take game breaks into account. Mith's did.

Also, note my argument is not 'Scot should be lynched because he's following JD.' It's 'IF one is following the other, it seems far more likely to be Scot. Since they are both individually scummy in their actions, and following is also a potential scumtell, it follows that we should be looking at Scot before JD.'

That last re-read of Scot also makes him scream scum to my eyes- though I can't guarantee I wouldn't have the same reaction to JD, thinking about it, since his positions are likely the same.

I agree that following is potentially a scumtell, but I don't think scotmany's following is quite as bad as you've made it out to be. It's also good to take into account the fact that d3sisted was attacking them both, they both thought it was bullshit, and they both voted him as a result. Plus, I still think scotmany seems more genuine than JDodge. The one thing I had a problem with scotmany about was his focus on d3sisted over max early in the game, but I think JD's assertion that he's been suspecting max/DGB/The Fonz all game or w/e looks a lot worse than what scotmany did.

Also, thanks for updating us on your suspicions, but could you go into more detail eventually about your suspicions? I'd especially like to hear why you think Mith/Adel are connected to JD/Scot.

I've provided detail on my main suspicion. My reasons for mith/adel being possible buddies is largely process of elimination, though I do have certain points about their behaviour which concern me- these i will address shortly, this post is already a bit of a linguistic juggernaut.

Okay, I look forward to that explanation.

============================================

Wow, I totally did not realize that JD had voted scotmany. Now I remember the post he voted in after looking back, though. JDodge, why do you think scotmany's been following you when you clearly differed in opinion at times, and you both had plenty of reason to individually suspect d3sisted (even if I don't agree)?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Korlash, I believe the word you are looking for is "sincere". Of the two, I would prefer a JD stump over scotmany, especially since JD is my #2 suspect and no one really seems to agree that The Fonz is scummy enough to vote for right now. We're looking for two scum, so The Fonz isn't the only one I need to focus on.

[Mastermind of Sin]

@The Fonz: To each his own, I'm still not entirely convinced that scotmany is following JD, but I see where you are coming from, at least. As far as who's more sincere, look at scotmany's posts, especially where he defends his actions regarding Quagmire. While I don't agree with the actions he and JDodge took, I feel that scotmany is a lot more sincere in explaining why he took those actions, which makes me feel that it's more likely

JDodge

was using Quagmire's situation as an opportunity to try and defend him.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'm tempted to stump right now just to prove you wrong. And then I could sit here and laugh in your faces as you wonder how you lost sight of the true scum. And then I would remember that you never lost sight, because you are the scum.

I get it now. The scum is not d3sisted; it is DGB and scot. I am sorry that I did not see this before; but now I have found clarity.

Unvote, vote: scotmany12

Scot is following me because he knows me to be town; he wants to set me up to take the fall and DGB is helping him with setting up an alibi for him later. DGB's buddying up to confirmed innocents as well as helping scot out in this way tells all.

So the question is this: should I stump?

Why don't we all agree that The Fonz is the second scum and lynch him? We're at a practical deadlock between scotmany and JDodge, but I'd rather lynch The Fonz over either of them.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I still think this is not going to be a good move, but I guess we'll see when Scotmany posts next...unless anyone wants to change their minds before it's too late?

[Mastermind of Sin]

*sigh*

Vote: The Fonz

Mod: Can you update the front post to reflect DGB's replacement? Thanks.

[Mastermind of Sin]

MoS, you don't have a shred of a case against me.

Vote: JDodge

I have the scummy actions of

both

your predecessors, and the fact that your contributions since entering the game helped get scotmany stumped over JDodge. More people favored JDodge over scotmany before you replaced in, and you were the major proponent in switching the lead over to scotmany, forcing him to stump.

[Mastermind of Sin]

More people favored JDodge over scotmany before you replaced in, and you were the major proponent in switching the lead over to scotmany, forcing him to stump.

I don't think you mentioned this before. Why is that?

I didn't really realize it until afterwards when The Fonz said I didn't have a case. I knew I already had a case against his predecessors, but I did a quick reread to see if he'd answered all the questions I'd asked him earlier, and I realized that it was mostly through his doing that scotmany stumped. I didn't realize this before because I was trying to get people to vote The Fonz (or JDodge) over scotmany anyways, and if I'd been successful, the above accusation would obviously not be true, since the suspicion would not have been turned towards scotmany.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Yea, I'm getting pretty tired of The Fonz dismissing any suspicion of him as if his predecessors did nothing scummy.

[Mastermind of Sin]

As for MoS, it's only a quick mention, but something I think deserves a lot more scrutiny than it is getting. Quagmire's second post nonchalantly tells JDodge and Scotmany to "go for Adele instead [of MoS]". It is possible that he was trying to divert the attention from scumbuddy-MoS, especially during the random stage when statements like those held less weight, and were more likely to be glossed over.

Hmm, I thought we mentioned this when we were talking about it earlier. That whole thing where Quagmire tried to start bandwagons by organizing them outside of the game. The plan was to wagon Adele and then myself, so Quagmire was just reminding them to go after Adele first, as far as I know. JD and scot can correct me if I'm misremembering, but that's what Quag told me beforehand, that he was going to get us both lynched randomly.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Some of us, yes. Korlash, can you update us with your current top 3 suspicion list? In fact, it'd be nice if everyone did that, actually.

[Mastermind of Sin]

On an actual serious note... With Scot stumped, instead of JD... *growls*... my views change a little...

I still woudl like to see JD stumped, but I personally feel it would be better off to, say, hit up MoS...

Mostly for his 1006:

I still think this is not going to be a good move, but I guess we'll see when Scotmany posts next...unless anyone wants to change their minds before it's too late?

then his 1008:
He "*sighs*"

Then everyone votes people knowing full well the vote count will be reset.. morons...

What about those posts makes you think I'm scum?

[Mastermind of Sin]

JDodge, why do you think scotmany's been following you when you clearly differed in opinion at times, and you both had plenty of reason to individually suspect d3sisted (even if I don't agree)?

I'm not seeing this clear differing in opinion.

I would think the most obvious thing you would recognize is that you went after SP, and he didn't.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I think 1000 posts is a lot, and I'm about to reach 10,000 posts myself.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Alright, I'm back from the holidays. I'll be catching up on my games in the next day or two.

@ MoS: Do you still consider 'Person C' to be a scumtell, or not?

No.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I think more pressure on scotmany12 is a good thing at this point.

unvote:The Fonz. vote:scotmany12

Yes I am aware this is another flipflop on him, but I'm starting to accept the idea that while scotmany12 wasn't exactly following JDodge, he easily could've gone along with him as cover. I think d3sisted's chances of being scum are normal for the number of players left.

Also I have it setup in my mind that if scotmany12 = town then JDodge = town.

My opinions were actually shifted by reading another player's (The Fonz's) posts. A rather unusual experience for me.

Why is JD your second pick for scum if scotmany being town means JDodge is town in your mind?

[Mastermind of Sin]

...

[Mastermind of Sin]

Adele had JDodge second in her list. Adel said she thought JDodge was town if Scot was.

I beg to differ.

my top three:
fonz
jd (gotta be scum if the fonz isn't)
d3sisted

Adel previously said JDodge was town if Scot was. Now she's saying that JDodge is scum if you aren't. I'm smelling inconsistencies, and she has no explanation for it.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Based on Adel's varying suspicions of JDodge, speculation leads me to believe that she was trying to find an out to clear him when scotmany was mislynched, then forgot about it when scotmany was lynched, and reverted to standard scum strategy of placing her scumbuddy on her suspicion list, but not near the top so she wouldn't have to vote him.

A quick look at JDodge's posts reveals the following:

He listed Aimee(Adel) as one of *three* possible scumbuddies of d3sisted while he was trying to get d3s lynched. In fact, he only post where he mentions Adel after she replaces is his post #60. He's barely mentioned this role all game (approx. twice)...I smell avoidance.

A quick look at Adel's posts reveals the following:

Adel did a massive list of all the votes made in the game up to that point, but didn't offer an analysis of it. This is consistent with the last game I played with her where she was scum. She did this to appear helpful, but didn't actually contribute anything.

She tries to excuse JDodge's playstyle in her post #4, saying "is JDodge's playstyle based upon appearing scummy in every game he plays in?"

She says that we should focus on the interaction between d3sisted, JDodge, and scotmany before anyone further is forced to stump. However, she doesn't give her own analysis, other than saying that she hasn't unraveled it all yet. I've gotta check to see if she follows through on this later.

An hour later, she admits "defeat", saying she can't figure out the three of them. Adel admitted to wanting to defend JDodge and thinking he was town, but being unable to come up with a defense. Again, tacit contribution in defense of JDodge without actually contributing a defense.

Votes for scotmany because she thinks JDodge is innocent (still hasn't articulated why), and because he "followed" JDodge (something I still disagree with, obviously).

After scotmany points out that he voted d3sisted first on Day 2, Adel says she'll check to make sure that's correct, and that she'll vote DGB instead of scotmany and reconsider her innocent read on JDodge.

Uses her post #15 to justify changing her vote from scotmany to DGB, but no mention of having reevaluated her JDodge position or her scotmany suspicions.

Revotes scotmany on the justification that "while scotmany12 wasn't exactly following JDodge, he easily could've gone along with him as cover." No mention of the fact that the reverse could be true, JDodge taking advantage of being lumped together with scotmany. Enforces the advantage such a situation would create by stating that JDodge is town if scotmany is town, the exact thing JDodge would be gunning for if he was scum lumped in with scotmany.

After scotmany stumps, Adel lists JD as her top suspect after The Fonz, stating that he's "gotta be scum if the fonz isn't".

When called out for this contradiction, Adel blames it on not paying attention and forgetting her reasons.

While I can normally accept losing your place or changing opinion without knowing it, Adel has far *too* many contradictions for me to be comfortable. Adel is the type of player that constantly reevaluates her own play and improves it based on past performances. The last time I played with her and she was scum, she did the same thing JDodge did this game, avoiding her scumpartners. After she was lynched and after the game ended, she questioned me about what she'd done wrong to clue me into her being scum, so that she could improve her own play. I think she's trying to compensate for past instances by actively commenting on her partner along with everyone else, but as a result, she has caught herself in a couple contradictions and positions that reveal her connection with JDodge.

I think a JDodge/Adel scumpair is what we're looking at here. JDodge has neatly avoided commenting on his scumpartner, and Adel is full of inconsistencies regarding her scumpartner.

Unvote, Vote: Adel, FoS: JDodge

I would be willing to lynch either of them, but I think Adel's tells are a little more indicative of her being scum, especially since a few of them could still mean she's scum even if JDodge is town. The reverse case does not stand up as well, imo.

If this theory is incorrect, I think The Fonz/Adele or The Fonz/mith are our most likely scumpairs. On a brief analysis, I think DGB's actions towards Adele could easily be distancing, espeically since DGB later became *convinced* of Adele's town-tendencies. DGB never got enough momentum to get Adele lynched, but she attacked her enough to give a distancing effect. This is something I've seen her do in the past, and it's consistent with her being scum. As for Mith/The Fonz, Mith's constant opinion that DGB was *probably* innocent could be soft defense of a scumpartner. He never came out and strongly defended her, but he always said he believe her to be protown.

[Mastermind of Sin]

...Adel, please explain your vote, please.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Given Adel's recent actions, I'm definitely more comfortable lynching her than JDodge. It's not that I'm WIFOMing myself out of suspecting JDodge, but I'm unwilling to attempt to unravel the obvious WIFOM behind Adel's action. Therefore, we kill two birds with one stone by lynching Adel instead.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'm going to humor myself here and ask that you give some reasons behind that accusation.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Well There is the whole Quag not wanting to go after you thing. Which seemed to me like there was some plan behind going after you to begin with but instead he figured why hit my partner when we can go after Adele. Then there is the whole "Call Korlash's bluff" thing when you clearly knew my feelings on stumping. Now it's the failure to recognize JD as anything. Also it's the fact I am me and you should all do as I say...

Quagmire *did* want to go after me. The plan was to wagon Adele to lynch, then me. He just never got past Adele, since that wasn't successful.

Stating that you would gladly stump does not make you more protown, Korlash. Scum can say those things just as much as town, especially if they *think* it'll get people to back off of them. It looked like a bluff, but I was wrong. Hindsight is 20/20, but I still stand by my decision at the time.

How am I failing to recognize JD as anything? I just posted a huge analysis that said JDodge was scum with Adel. Are you even reading the thread?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Why is MoS pushing my wagon when he could easily ask JD to stump and test his theory of me and JD being scum together?

Because, as I said earlier, there is a much higher chance of you being scum independently of JDodge than vice versa. Therefore, voting you is better at this time.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Sorry, that last sentence made me LoL.

I think you're both right, unfortunately. The Fonz's scenario is very real, but I still think confirmed innocents should have a real say in things. Maybe the stumps should only be worth half a vote towards stumping? That way they can't force a stump without much of the living town agreeing, but it's understood that if the living + dead town decide to stump, the living players not voting that person agree to lynch them if they don't stump. Does that make sense?

Mith makes a good point about linkages to Adel. While the evidence against her is more independent of JDodge (imo), I forgot to look at links to other players. On his mention of it, it's true that she doesn't have any strong links to other players. Unfortunately, this leaves us in the situation where JDodge being scum strongly implicates Adel as scum, and JDodge being town strongly implicates Adel as scum, so I don't know what information we can gain by lynching him. I guess I'll try to jump that hurdle when we get to it.

Unvote, Call for Stump: JDodge

FoS: Adel

That puts him at a count of 4 from living players, 5 from all players, correct?

[Mastermind of Sin]

That's because it's usually scum that do the true omgus voting, not town. And scum certainly aren't going to admit to anything like that.

[Mastermind of Sin]

That's because it's usually scum that do the true omgus voting, not town. And scum certainly aren't going to admit to anything like that. Town don't have a reason to lie about it.

[Mastermind of Sin]

JDodge's last two posts in this thread were saying he needed to catch up and post soon. They were 3 days apart, and it's been another 3 days since his last post. Can we get a prod on him? I know he's around the site, but maybe he just forgot instead of being scum stalling for time by not posting...

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'm here, but between MS being ridiculously laggy, having to move back to campus, and my computer having issues, I haven't had a chance to post pretty much everywhere. I'll reread now. This may take a while.

[Mastermind of Sin]

...

Let's try again. Why do you think The Fonz is scum?

As scot said, we only have one stump left to give. And it hurts us a lot if we have to use it now. (We're still at 50-50 tomorrow if we hit scum now, but we're down to 2/15 if we miss.)

Major reason:
DGB requested replacement in this game while under heavy fire... MoS defended her at the time saying that she was replacing out of all of her games... she is still active in 1+ games

now

that she was active in

before

then.

DGB decided to honor her replacement agreements, but she requested replacement elsewhere, afaik.

unvote

I'm feeling pretty outclassed by the other living players right now. My play has been crap. I've decided that I'll peg my vote to the voice of the stumps. When a majority of them agree on who is the most likely scum, I'll either vote for that person or call for him to stump.

i'll give my living vote to the stumps for the sake of the town.

No. DGB already said the same thing. Giving your vote to the stumps absolves you of the responsibility to scumhunt and back up your votes with reasoning. Tailoring to the confirmed innocents gives you a shield to hide behind. I want you out in the open where I can see you, thanks. The stumps can speak for themselves, and we'll listen. You don't need to give them your vote.

MOS seemed to switch to JD at a convenient time, though he gave reasons for it. I'm very interested to see who's the focus of his attention now; his last major post gave him a couple of avenues to take, notably Adel and The Fonz. MOS, what do you think of an Adel-Fonz scumpair? Also, do you really think it's plausible that I was scum with DGB, when I got her so close to stumping?

I'm going to be exploring ALL possible scumpairs soon. That will take time, though.

Ok, a, at least, I can see some merit in (though again, I'd rather a less-responsible confirmed innocent determine our fate than a responsible player with a 40% chance of being scum).

B, though, I find quite odd (see my questions to Adele on this, post 1168). Shouldn't the fact that we asked those four players to stump be a point against

us

as rational voters, as much or more than it is against them?

Wow, I didn't really think of it like that, but B makes a lot of sense. -_-

Waitaminute...

Also, do you really think it's plausible that I was scum with DGB, when I got her so close to stumping?

This reminds me of an argument mith called scummy earlier, and is indeed stronger than the one I made (my argument was basically along the lines of 'You can't hold my behaviour toward JD as evidence of a connection,' this is an out-and-out 'we're not connected because I voted for her.')

Are you saying

you

think it's plausible that you and I are scum together? You

know

DGB's support of me isn't evidence of a scummy connection between us, so what's your point?

rofl!

Adel, Adele, MoS: You've all mentioned Fonz as a top suspect (top 2 I think for everyone, yes?). Whether that's changed now or not: Do you agree or disagree with my assessment on his end-of-Dodgystump behavior? Do you feel he would have so adamantly tied himself to "I think JDodge is scum scum scum and I've been the fearless leader on this wagon" (given that he had ample opportunity to avoid this stance, since he was voting for someone else), if he were scum and knew JDodge would come up innocent?

Given that you've immediately considered him cleared as a result of that, it doesn't seem to have done him much harm to take such a stance...

Alright, that's part of my catching up. I have more threads to get to.

[Mastermind of Sin]

And you were all wrong; now you're supposed to trust your own judgment?

You yourself were on the scot and SP stumps, if not the Korlash one as well, I can't remember. So just because you're now a stump doesn't make your judgement better than those of us that are protown. But that's not really the main point anyways.

I'm not really comfortable with taking away the responsibility of the lynch from the living players. I'm afraid the mafia will manipulate the stumps into mislynching. Then, the blame for the mislynch goes on the dead players who can't possibly be scum, and the mafia get away scot-free because they were just following the orders of the confirmed protown players. Personally, I do not mind the equal voting we had earlier that much, but I felt that my suggestion was a compromise that gives everyone something they want. The Fonz gets less power to the stumps to address his concerns, and the stumps still get real votes to represent them, even if they don't mean *as* much.

[Mastermind of Sin]

How are stumps any more susceptible to manipulation by scum than the townies are? Why would anyone just let someone off because they were "just doing what the confirmed townies asked"?

They're not more susceptible, but they aren't accountable for their actions. Stumps cannot be held accountable for the decisions they make, so there is less pressure to be correct or thorough. Living players can and will be held accountable.

JD, let's look at a theoretical situation. Let's say that mith and Adele are scum together. Let's say that Adele attacks The Fonz and convinces the stumps to vote him, while mith says he thinks it's MoS and Adel. By Glork's plan, mith is obliged to follow the stump votes and force The Fonz to stump, but he has no accountability for that action, because he didn't *want* to lynch The Fonz, but he had to because he had agreed to give the stumps the majority voice, which lets them direct his vote. How can you discern between scum-mith who is riding the stump decisions and town-mith who just doesn't think The Fonz is town? If he has control over his own destiny, he's responsible for making The Fonz stump if he votes him. I want the living players to be fully accountable for their actions, but I don't want to take away all ability for the confirmed protown players to have their say. With my compromise plan, the living players are still mostly responsible for deciding who dies, but the stumps can exercise their own opinions in the form of 1/2 votes that the town is obliged to honor by agreement. It's harder for scum to hide behind stump votes, because it takes two stump votes to make a living player enforce that view to lynch. Under Glork's plan, 1 stumped person essentially controls two living votes, which makes it easy for scum to hide behind the stumps.

Glork, I'd appreciate it if you don't automatically add derisive comments to everything you say, especially when you're wrong. Shouting stuff like "why haven't we lynched him already?" isn't remotely helpful to the proceedings. I recognize that I often use similarly abrasive comments in my own playstyle, but I'm trying to reduce that on a site-wide level, so I'd appreciate if you at least did the same in this game, especially since you're not even alive.

Also, since you may have missed The Fonz's earlier comments, here's some quotes for you.

Nope. We need to ensure we commit every living player to 'for' or 'against' a stumping before it happens. I'm really starting to suspect those for giving stumps votes are doing so only because they believe the stumps can be manipulated into agreeing with their agenda.

There's also something in this last page that I'm wondering if certain people pick up on.

@Adele: Whatever you think of mith's position on the stumps, he clearly has not flip-flopped.

In the interest of reaching consensus:

MoS's compromise proposal: Stump-votes will count for half a vote. When someone reaches at least 4.5 votes out of a possible 8, they will stump or we will lynch them.

Can everyone get behind that?

The math here seems to imply that you'd need half the living, plus an outright majority of the stumps- assuming a d3 replacement is likely to take precendence over a SP one, that's likely to require unanimity amongst the stumps. This I don't mind.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Glork, I'd appreciate it if you don't automatically add derisive comments to everything you say, especially when you're wrong.

Overdefensive much? Go find one other "derisive comment" I've directed towards you in this thread. I'm pretty sure I made two extremely long posts analyzing nearly 30 pages of the game and stuck strictly to business. And instead of responding to any of the content in those long analyses, you're choosing to get hussy over one comment pointing out the fact that I think you're scum.

So yeah. I want you lynched. You're behaving very typically from what I'd expect from MoS-scum right now.

I haven't had time to respond to your analysis of me, because it's quite long, as you admitted. This isn't the only game I'm in, and I'm trying not to neglect any of them completely, but I can only do so much. I'm going to try and do more tonight, but we'll see.

And regardless, that comment didn't help anything. You appended it to a comment that was completely wrong, on top of that. If you want to point out that you think I'm scum, present cases and vote me. Don't just go around shouting that I'm scum. That doesn't accomplish anything. Everyone already knows you think I'm scum, because you posted a case. There is absolutely no reason to be obnoxious about it, Glork. You know better than that.

[Mastermind of Sin]

And regardless, that comment didn't help anything. You appended it to a comment that was completely wrong, on top of that. If you want to point out that you think I'm scum, present cases and vote me. Don't just go around shouting that I'm scum. That doesn't accomplish anything. Everyone already knows you think I'm scum, because you posted a case. There is absolutely no reason to be obnoxious about it, Glork. You know better than that.

Sure it did.

You see, I am an egocentric, arrogant, vocal, and extraordinarily stubborn bastard of a mafia player.

I like saying things that make me feel that I have control over a game.

You're still scum, and now I am considering making a snide comment in every single post I make, simply to antagonize you.

Of course, that would hurt if you were town. But since you're scum, I'm okay with putting you on edge.


Have a good day, sir.

You're also very close to having me replace out of this game and never speak to you again.

[Mastermind of Sin]

You know what I

don't

need? I don't need people like Glork antagonizing me for no good reason. I have enough shit to deal with in my life without having to deal with that. I don't play mafia to be provoked and baited into wanting to punch something. I play to have fun, and Glork is on the verge of making this not fun anymore. I stepped outside of my alignment and asked Glork to respect me as a

person

, and I'm not receiving that respect. I don't have to deal with that shit. I have better things to do, thanks.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'm not gunning for anyone right now. I haven't had a chance to reread possible pairings yet. I'm going to try to work from a clean slate and look at things objectively to see where my suspicions land. Hopefully, that will keep my thoughts from being colored by who I already felt was scum.

I railed at DGB for the same reason earlier this game. But threatening to leave the game doesn't help anyone, and frankly I think it correlates with being scum. Stuff rolls off your back better when you're town, I think.

If you don't like Glork's behaviour, I suggest you separate that

entirely

from the truth or lack thereof of the accusations he makes. Give examples of what offended you, and why, and be all moral-high-ground-y.

And forgive me for being so patronising.

Nevertheless, the small FOS stands. You've gone up a notch in my suspicions in the last couple days.

Take it as a threat if you wish, but it wasn't meant to be. That's not to say it won't happen, but I don't really think I need to go delving into a lot of personal details in my life in order to justify how I feel.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'm going to devote some time to this game over the weekend. Sorry for the delay.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Notice: I will be leaving Mafiascum in the near future. As a result, I will be cutting back on games where possible. I'm going to try not to be replaced if I can, but this is an advance notice that my activity WILL decrease.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Ugh, I'm gonna aim for next weekend. If I don't get a post in by next weekend, I may have to ask for replacement. School is killing me, and I'm going to start a job soon, and all my weekends are booked for the next two months, so I don't even have a respite there.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I've assembled the points against me to try and respond to them all in one post.

For what it's worth, I specifically requested to replace the stump because I wanted to do some serious scumhunting, and I didn't want to worry about pressure on myself. Yes, I'm horribly, horribly selfish in that regards.

Okay, so I'm on Page 19, and I find myself looking at two completely different pairs.

First, some general meta thoughts:
--The Quagmire lynch feels, to me, that it would have been a very obvious, easy, even

necessary

bus for any halfway competent scumbuddy to make. Interestingly enough, this is backed by the fact that the two biggest "don'tlynchquag" supporters (JD and Scot) were town, as was the skeptical hammerer and the "confused townie." I believe that the scums would have been quick to go after Quag and quicker still to blast people who were wishy-washy regarding Quag, because those would be the easiest targets. From this, I gather that mith (very enthusiastic about lynching Quag -- preceeded a weak player Bapa, who stated his belief that Quag was probably protown), d3s (jumped Quag immediately and never relented, even though the lynch really wasn't all there, especially at the beginning), and MoS (similar to d3sisted, but seemed to do more nothing) are good candidates for having bussed Quagmire.

Can you explain what "seemed to do more nothing" means? I think, in retrospect, it may have been important to consider that JDodge and Scotmany were the two people who were "in" on some of Quagmire's plans from the beginning. I knew about it as well, but since his plans targeted me, that's a little different. I think part of their reaction was based on the fact that they essentially assumed Quagmire had not looked at his role pm, because it went along with his pre-game plans to just wagon Adele and myself Day 1.

--I'm a little miffed that you folks eventually lynched Scot and Korlash, both of whom I thought gave off pretty obvious protown tells. I haven't yet gotten to either of their Stumpings, but I will be paying close attention to both of them.

I think Korlash got what was coming to him, but I definitely have to agree on the scotmany lynch.

After D1, I was set to declare mith/MoS as my scumgroup with about a 60% probability, but then MoS made a post on Page 9 that made me completely rethink that stance. When mith made a post going after SilverPheonix (with an accompanying vote), MoS quoted most or all of that post and basically said "I agree with mith completely," proceeding to vote SilverPhoenix in an effective EBWODP. I'm not sure how I feel about MoS blatantly following a scumbuddy onto a weak sheep, but I do know that MoS has in the past tried to buddy up to the strongest amongst the town (read: longrunning game in which I died as town, MoS died as scum, and MoS kissed my ass throughout D1). But I still felt that mith's attack was pretty opportunistic, and I didn't like the whole "I'd rather see Quag replaced, but w/e let's just lynch him" attitude with which he entered the game, so he's on my list, too.

Did you stop to consider the fact that I may have just been swayed by Mith's argument? It wasn't a bad argument for pressure Day 2. I don't think anyone expected SP to just stump early instead of explaining himself.

The second pair I have a mind for is MoS/Adele. Again, MoS fits the profile of being really overenthusiastic in going after Quag without substantial enough evidence.

Without substantial enough evidence? Bullshit. It was very clear that Quagmire's actions were NOT protown at all, and that they were specifically beneficial when employed from a scum standpoint. This setup differs from other games in that days don't end unless we lynch someone, so it was entirely possible that Quag-neutral would not "find out" his role until several people had died through stumpings. As long as we didn't lynch scum, Quagmire would be able to get away without looking at his role pm, since he wasn't planning to find out until the first Night. That is a very anti-town action, and I think it was a very strong case for lynching Quagmire. I still think it's likely that Quagmire recognized the potential behind this action and attempted to put himself in a position to "skate by" while we focused on other players Day 1.

MoS and Adele also did an awful lot of asskissing towards mith (Adele with more quantity, but MoS where I felt it counted most -- as indicated above). Furthermore, Adele's attitude towards Quag was the incredulous "wtf, what are you doing?" bit that made me cringe. I wouldn't exactly say that she pleaded with Quag to look at his role PM, but my gut tells me there was something there. I have to admit, I have less concrete, specific evidence against this pairing, but I do have some pretty strong gut-feelings.

Let's go through this again. Your reasons for thinking I am scum:

1) On the Quag lynch
- I think I've already explained why that's not a good reason to suspect me in particular, especially since I gave good reasons for voting him.
2) Buddied up to mith

Your reasons for thinking Adele and I are scumpartners:
1) Adele was on the Quag lynch and asked him wtf he was doing
2) Adele also buddied up to mith

Excuse me if I don't think you've properly analyzed things here, Glork. I actually agree with the points against Adele, but I can't see any way that they connect her to me in order for you to come up with this pairing. You haven't presented any evidence to suggest that we are scumpartners, yet somehow we're among your top suspects. I understand that you're only on about page 19, but it seems like a really weak case so far.

(Actually, I could see MoS/d3s, too... for whatever that's worth. Post 458, he defends d3s and states that he's not a fan of both of d3s's attackers. Tangible connection there.)

Actually, I only said that about JDodge, to be more clear. Scotmany made it to third on the list because I just didn't have many suspects at that point. Most people weren't pinging my radar, so scotmany made it by process of elimination. I believe I asked legitimately for them to explain the case against d3sisted, because his actions (especially the "agreement" to stump if they stumped) did not seem like something scum would do. Do you disagree, Glork?

Quick assorted thoughts as I run through this

DGB seems

very

protown to me.

d3sisted's responses to JD look like he's just a weak townie. Like MoS pointed out, the "town sometimes vote town but scum only vote scum when busing" thing just didn't make sense from any perspective.

I agree with about d3s, obviously. Do you still feel that I'm scummy for defending d3s?

Why did you feel DGB was protown?

I really don't like the first half of MoS's Post 506. It feels to me that he's reaching to find someone else to get her to stump under the "guys, we should really get everyone's thoughts on the person close-to-stump." Something about the wording of the post just feels very superficial to me.

I can see what you're getting at, but do you really disagree? Is it a bad thing to have someone at like L-1 or w/e and not know everyone's opinions about them? If people think they are protown, I'd rather hear those reasons than wait for an "I told you so" after the person's been hammered, especially when they really didn't "tell us so". However, I don't deny that I was also lobbying for support against DGB. I suspected her, so I wanted people to see what I saw and lynch her.

I don't like MoS's 549 either: "Korlash, do you really believe DGB to be protown?"
MoS is definitely trying to nail down a misstump on DGB.

That's not what I'm doing, although I *was* trying to get Korlash to commit to a solid position on DGB. I wanted him to say yes or no, and *why* he felt that way. If I could get the people not voting DGB to give me reasons why, that would give me material to respond to regarding my own suspicion of her. It's hard to convince people someone is scum when they won't tell you why they think that person isn't scum. You know me well enough to know that I hate having people disagree with me for no reason at all.

--Random Note: After MoS asked Korlash if he actually thought DGB was town, he never responded to Korlash's answer. Stuff like that often bothers me... this is something I would have pursued at the time, but probably won't get anything from now.

I most likely never saw his response. Can you link me to that post? Actually, I just saw it. You'll notice that I didn't post until almost two pages later, 2 days later, and my post was in response to Mith's right above mine. I think I never got around to read the page before it, so I didn't see his response.

Oooh, the Adele-MoS doubleteam is very interesting. Guarantee right now

at least

one of them is scum. If I had to choose only

one

of them based on this sequence of events, it'd be MoS, but things don't look especially good for Adele either. I can almost see her stance as being reasonable (afterall, Scot basically said "dear god, man, you're really making it hard to stay off of you"), but MoS's shift -- especially after trying so hard to find just a few more ounces of ill will towards DGB -- is pure, unadultered opportunism.

Which sequence of events are you referring to? I can't really defend myself if I don't know what you're talking about. As for putting DGB on the shelf, it was obvious I wasn't going to get enough people to lynch DGB yet, so why expend more useless effort? There are more than one scum to be found, and I'm sure that I gave reasons for suspecting someone enough to switch off of DGB.

MoS: Dude, threating to replace yourself is a self-pitying move, something that town members should not be doing. Evoking emotions leads to bad logic, something that we really can't afford right now. Plus you also seem to be acting differently this game.

This is a response to anyone that has made a comment about my reaction to Glork. I just highlighted Iammars' post because I wanted to reply to the rest of it as well.

I'm sorry, but Glork's comment came at a bad time in my life. I'm sure you all can find it somewhere in your hearts to excuse me for being

a little

very testy when I didn't know whether or not I was being kicked out of my University, didn't have the money to pay rent regardless of if I went back to school or not, and had my bike stolen over Christmas break. All in the first two weeks of January. I didn't have the mindset to be playing mafia, and I'm glad I took a break to give me some perspective.

Anyway, can you quantify what you mean by "acting differently"?

Ok, I think I've gotten everything. As far as I can tell, the only people who presented points against me recently had names ending in "Ork". I'd hope that the other people expressing at least top-2 suspicion of me would present their own cases instead of piggybacking behind the Ork-ness or just avoiding reason altogether. If I've missed your case and not responded to it, link me to your case so I can give you answers.

Now I'm going to begin my massive multi-part scumpair rereads.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Ok that didn't happen. I'm going to be gone over the weekend, and I have two projects due Wednesday and another due Friday, but I'll try to read some on Wednesday. I'll be looking at all the following scumpairs in turn:

Players:

Adele
Adel (replaces Aimee)
Iammars (replaces d3sisted)
The Fonz (replaces DrippingGoofball)
Mith (replaces Bapa Bail)

Possible Scumpairs:

Adele/Adel

Adele/Iammars

Adele/The Fonz

Adele/Mith

Adel/Iammars

Adel/The Fonz

Adel/Mith

Iammars/The Fonz

Iammars/Mith

The Fonz/Mith

[Mastermind of Sin]

Iammars, I'm really interested in an explanation of why "gut" put me as one of your top two suspects. At this point of the game, I'd expect something more concrete than that.

[Mastermind of Sin]

The purpose of this exercise is to look at interaction between people, not their overall actions. I am trying to find possible connections and figure out what they could mean if they are scum.

Adele/Adel (replaces Aimee):

Adele's first mention of Aimee was on Day 2, after the Quag lynch was over. She listed Aimee as one of the two people who were hesitant about Quagmire (she never voted D1). Basically poked Aimee about her activity and wanted to hear more contribution. Interesting comment: "Neutral on her

so long as

she brings her game up

right now

" I should check back later to see if this held out, because I'm pretty sure Aimee didn't do that. Listed Aimee 6th on her suspicion list.

Aimee asks why Max believes Adele to be protown.

A few days later, Adele stated again that she's expect a lot of content from Aimee after returning from posted V/LA.

A few days later, Adele still wants to hear from Aimee (this was around the time the V/LA was about to end)

Adele asked for a prod on Aimee after she still didn't post. (Nov 8)

Aimee says DGB's Adele case is based on very little merit/evidence (Nov 16)

Adele <3's Aimee for some reason, but doesn't say why. I checked Aimee's posts, and I don't see any big contribution yet that would've made a positive impression on Adele. (Nov 16)

Adele again berated Aimee about lurking. "I'll need to see real contributions nowish or I'll consider unvoting DGB (boo!) to press harder." Same threat as before, but much later in the game. (Nov 19)

Aimee makes her first (and last) big contribution of the game, ending in an analysis of everyone. Says she's wary of Adele, having never played with her before, but her combined defense against DGB, defense of Aimee against DGB, and the attack on Quag all make her think Adele is protown. Lists Adele as 7th out of 8 in terms of suspicion. (Nov 23)

Adele once again said that Aimee deserves "quality attention", along with DGB, JDodge, and Scot. The difference, however, is that she votes DGB, FoS's JDodge and Scotmany, but just tacks Aimee on the end without expressing suspicion against her. (Nov 27)

Adele asks for another prod on Aimee (Dec 03)

Adele notes that Aimee was replaced by Adel (Dec 05)

Adel says she doesn't have a read on Adele, but in the next post she points to post 200 to indicate an Adele-DGB connection. (Dec 09)

Adel says that Adele may be a well-distanced scumbuddy of DGB, but she wants to lynch DGB first to be able to evaluate Adele's actions. (Dec 09)

Adel says that she doesn't like Adele but doesn't have much on her either. (Dec 10)

It may be important to note that Adele did not even post in between the last 4 posts by Adel, where Adel's position on Adele kept changing slightly.

Adel accuses Adele of tactical lurking (Dec 11)

Adele disagrees with Adel's town read on JDodge and her conclusion that Mith is an "enigma", stating that Mith seems town to her. Adele does see where a link between DGB and herself could be drawn, though. (Didn't Adele later seem incredulous that people would link her to DGB? Why the change in heart?) Defended herself against lurking accusation quite emphatically.

Adele makes a few posts that tangentially involve Adel, either replying to a question she asked Korlash, or asking someone else what they thought of Adel. No direct comments about Adel for a while, though.

Adele agrees with Adel that most of us probably feel outclassed by the other players in the game, since there aren't nights where mafia can pick off those players. Also asks for Adel to respond to JDodge's accusation of blatant lying. Opposes Adel's idea to give her living vote to the stumps, but does so in a less aggressive way than when DGB brought it up, I think. Merely points out that it's a bad idea but doesn't view Adel negatively for attempting it. This post is where Adele seems to think it's not plausible for her to be scum with DGB since she nearly got her to stump. This contradicts her reaction to Adel's suggestion that she could be scum with DGB (see above). Concludes post by listing The Fonz and Adel as her top suspects, but hasn't listed reasoning why, and doesn't vote either of them. (Jan 10)

Adele points out that it's damning for Adel to say she's more concerned with appearing consistent than being correct in her suspicions. (Jan 10)

Lists Adel as #1 suspicion ahead of The Fonz, saying her "behaviour in the last few days has been shocking". Again no analysis, though. (Jan 11)

Adel doesn't even mention Adele again until Jan 13, over a month between posts about her.

Adele attacks Adel for saying she didn't have anything to contribute even after Mith asked her a direct question. Prompts Adel with a few questions: "How about listing who she thinks is scum? How about commenting whether she thinks agreement with mith's plan correlates positively, negatively or not at all with scummyness? If you had to pick 2 scum right now, who would they be?" Accuses Adel of trying to fly under the radar and beg off contribution because she's not good enough to play at this level. (Jan 15)

Adel says MoS is most likely scum, followed by Adele, says that Adele and MoS are gunning for her, which is why she's kept quiet. (Jan 15)

Adele says Adel has given another ambiguous answer about the stump issue and tries to divest responsibility to contribute to the game. Says she won't forget Adel or stop suspecting her just because she doesn't post. Says that Adel has a lot of points to respond to from her from the week before. (Jan 16)

Adel responds to Adele's points against her. Says that she trusts JDodge and Glork's scumhunting abilities more than any of the living players' abilities. Goes on the offensive against Adele, attacking her regarding comments about MoS and accuses her of setting up a false dilemma between The Fonz and Adel. (Jan 16)

Adele essentially calls Adel's attack OMGUS, since she struck back after failing to get Adele to back off. Explains her "false dilemma" as a choice she was presenting for herself, not other people, so it doesn't apply. (Jan 18)

Adele attacks Adel for making a connection between herself and MoS based on FoSing every living player AND the mod, saying it makes no sense for that to be a ploy when it was obviously not a genuine statement of suspicion. (Jan 18)

Adele states that people seem to be in two camps right now: Wanting herself dead next, or wanting Adel dead next. (Jan 18)

Adel pseudovotes Adele based on Glork's suspicion (Jan 21)

Adele says her suspicion hasn't come out of nowhere to divert the wagon on herself, but that it was based on scummy things she said earlier in the day. Points out that the pseudovote divests responsibility from Adel and puts it on Glork, since he made the case against Adele. (Jan 22)

Adele agrees with The Fonz about Adel's scumminess but also suspects him of bussing. (Jan 25)

Adel asks why people aren't following Glork's case on Adele and MoS, since he has such a good reputation. Also asks Adele how the town can agree on a majority decision without being influenced by scum until we reach a mislynch (I'm assuming she means misstump) (Jan 25)

Adele says that the current compromise can give the stumps input so that the scum have less influence over the voting. Accuses Adel of trying to design a plan that specifically disadvantages Adele, saying she's doing it out of self-protection, not because she thinks it's the right play for the town. (Jan 28)

Adel lists Adele and MoS as top suspects with Iammars and The Fonz as her next two. (Jan 28)

Adel says that MoS tried to push her lynch subtly and Adele seems scummy as well (and her wagon seemed to build in a way that looks like a scum lynch), so they are probably scumpartners and more suspicious than The Fonz. (Jan 28)

Adele questions Adel's profile of a "scum-wagon". Points out that Adel hasn't really presented much reason to suspect herself or MoS, but seems to make ambiguous accusations towards them. (Jan 30)

Analysis: Some of their actions early on could have been scum interaction. I find it interesting that Adele kept ragging on Aimee and threatening to lurker hunt her, but never followed through with it. Adel's changing opinion of Adele could also be indication of a scumbuddy unwilling to push too hard for fear of actually getting her partner in the limelight, but still wanting to distance somewhat. However, their recent strong attacks on each other confuse me. It's possible that they both decided it would be best to distance as much as possible before one of them was lynched, in order to make the other look better, but it seems to me that a much better strategy in their position would have been to concentrate their attacks on me instead, especially since Glork had me as his #1 suspect. It's reasonable to think that neither of them thought of it before they committed to distancing, but that's still a slight point in favor.

It's occurred to me that it's probably best to spread out which pairs I do in favor of covering more people, because the enormity of the task may wear on me after a while. Therefore, I'll randomly pick one of the three pairs that do not involve Adele or Adel, then randomly choose from the entire list after that.

Iammars/The Fonz
Iammars/Mith
The Fonz/Mith

Original Roll String: 1d3

1 3-Sided Dice: (1) = 1

[Mastermind of Sin]

Alright, The Fonz(replaces DGB)/Mith is the next pair I'll try to do. That might have to wait until after my V/LA, though. I'm gone until Monday.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I wouldn't suggest waiting for me for the fact that it DOES seem to be stalling the game. However, I don't think you can call it a stalling tactic on my part, because I didn't expect anyone to just sit back and wait for me to finish them all. I'm a busy person, and I may only get one done each week, or less often than that. I'm doing the best I can, though.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Why?

[Mastermind of Sin]

I believe that Adele is trying to say: If it wasn't sarcastic, that raises one set of issues, and if it was sarcastic, that raises another set of issues.

Your response seems to imply that Adele is manufacturing a catch-22 against you, but I think her concerns are valid in either situation. She didn't manufacture anything.

[Mastermind of Sin]

It's not as simple as that, Korlash. The change in inflection in Adel's post (from what Adele thought it was to what it actually was) creates an entirely new interpretation of what she said. The problem is, what she said was scummy to Adele regardless of

how

it was said. Adel did something Adele found scummy, but the interpretation of her meaning changes WHAT is scummy about it.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Ok. I'm going to be realistic with myself here. I sit here and post on the site whenever I can find the time, but I don't think I'm ever going to find time to sit down and write another analysis like that, especially not 10 of them. I would really like to be able to do this, because I think this game deserves that kind of attention after the effort we've all put into it. But let's face it, I just don't want to put that much effort into any mafia game anymore, and I don't have the time to do it, either. I'm sorry, but it's just not going to happen. If there wasn't so much invested in this game already, I'd volunteer for replacement so that you could have someone with the time to invest in this game, but I think it would hurt the game even more if someone new had to come in. I just don't think I can afford to keep contributing the way I have been. If you guys think that a replacement would be better than keeping me around, I would not complain. I'm sorry.

[Mastermind of Sin]

MoS, I would have found your insanely complete analysis useful, but I am much more interested in you posting who you find scummy and why. Make a list.

Also, can you link any current game where you have made a post like that last one? I can't help thinking it's a gambit of some sort taking advantage of you being burnt out on playing.

I've been away... I'll see if I can do a bit of reading and decide on a vote this weekend.

No, I haven't made a post like that in any of my other games. This game is a lot harder for me than any of my other games, and it's a lot farther along than most of them as well (especially since I was killed/lynched in like 5 games in the last couple weeks). The fact that I had decided to do all those analysis' made this game seem even more intimidating, so it fell even farther behind on the list of priorities that I *wanted* to take care of. I really hope that everyone in this game knows that I would not use this as a gambit. I'm not saying it should clear me, either. I just think that I have set enough of a precedent for hating how some people use RL circumstances to their advantage that you can trust I would do this regardless of my alignment.

I will try to come up with a suspicion list later this week.

[Mastermind of Sin]

How many games are you unsually in at one time MoS?

Before I started dropping my activity, I had (approximately):

3 Normal large
1 Normal mini
1 normal open
3 themed minis
8 theme large
2 newbie games

Plus I was modding:

2 newbie games
2 theme minis
1 theme large

So, I was involved in about 23 games.

Right now I have:

4 large themes
3 mini themes
2 large normals
1 modding (large theme)
+1 long-awaited game I just signed up for.

So that's 11 games. And I still don't have time to keep up with them all, especially this one. I'm contributing less than this in some of them, though. I just don't apologize for it because I don't care about those games, and I've already requested low-priority replacement when the mod can find one.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I don't like giving out lists that I haven't had time to think through. I'm tired of getting burned by laziness, so I try to avoid that. I just can't win, can I?

[Mastermind of Sin]

What you just said would have relevance if I remembered anything specifc about what had gone on in this game so far.

But whatever. I just don't care anymore.

Adele
Adel (replaces Aimee)
Iammars (replaces d3sisted)
The Fonz (replaces DrippingGoofball replaces Max)
Mith (replaces Bapa Bail)

There's my suspicion list. You happy now?

[Mastermind of Sin]

MoS - Seems like he's trying to exploit his unavailableness by yelling at us when we try to question him.

WHOA WHOA WHOA....WHAT!? Bullshit. I have answered every accusation put up against me. The only think I have not done is give a suspicion list, because I just don't know. The reason I wanted to do that massive analysis is because I think just about anyone could be scum at this point.

Not sure what to make of MoS's list. Pretty much the least interesting thing he could've gone with (it's my list, minus MoS).

mith: Adele>Adel>MoS>Iammars>Fonz>mith
MoS: Adele>Adel>Iammars>Fonz>mith>MoS

Hmm, you know what my list looks a lot like?

Yet to be felled: (6)

Adele
Adel (replaces Aimee)
Iammars (replaces d3sisted)
Mastermind of Sin
The Fonz (replaces DrippingGoofball replaces Max)
Mith (replaces Bapa Bail)

Interesting...

[Mastermind of Sin]

Adel, what was the results of your analysis on d3sisted/Iammars after JDodge and scotmany came up protown? You justified some of your votes on them earlier by saying that their death would help you determine d3sisted's alignment. I'd like to know what became of that.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Thanks for giving reasons, Glork.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Would you rather that I just not post and not tell you why? Is that what you're saying?

[Mastermind of Sin]

I still want Adel to answer my question.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Adel, what was the results of your analysis on d3sisted/Iammars after JDodge and scotmany came up protown? You justified some of your votes on them earlier by saying that their death would help you determine d3sisted's alignment. I'd like to know what became of that.

According to the theory I had at the time, d3sisted should be scum. I lost interest in the idea after Iammars started posting and you attacked me for the mistake I made around Christmas time.

So because I attacked you for something you acknowledge as legitimate (but merely a mistake, from your perspective), that somehow nullifies your theory about d3sisted? Please explain this logic to me.

[Mastermind of Sin]

lost interest"? Since when is the correct course dependent on faddishness - or are you saying here your approach since then has been omgus? I don't follow your explanation of why you now reject your earlier reasoning as a town approach - though it fits your survivor approach to this game pretty well which, as I think I've said before, I consider a major scumtell.

when it comes down to it the only way I can make sense of this game is to look for who has given just the right amount of push to stump wagons. I am used to playing with players who are much more transparent, so I'm out of my comfort zone for analyzing bahavior. All that I am left with is the theory that the scum have pushed wagons, but not hard enough to be strongly associated with them.
MoS's attack on me seemed to be just the right amount of push. If he had continued to push my wagon I would've concluded that he was town, but he didn't. He did lay out a good enough case against me that had other players rapidly adopted it I would've been lynched, and probably without his vote on my wagon.

I had a theory, and then I moved on to one that fits my understanding of the game better.

I'm pretty sure I didn't shirk away from the questions I asked you. I don't think I have done anything that I couldn't be associated with. I've been pretty clear on my opinions throughout this game.

I don't really understand your logic here, Adel. You're saying I'm scum because I laid out a "good case" against you and *didn't* try to get you lynched right away? How does that follow? This is unbelievable. I don't think I've ever been attacked for NOT lynching someone.

Vote: Adel

Mith, Adele, Iammars, and The Fonz are my order of suspects. If Adel is scum, Adele and Mith are most likely her partners. Mith could also be scum with Iammars, but I don't see any other pairings Adele could be a part of. Despite my early read on DGB, The Fonz's contributions have slowly redeemed his role in my eyes. I think he's the least likely scum here. Iammars I'm unsure about because I thought I had a good read on d3sisted, but Iammars just hasn't really *done* anything since replacing into the game. I thought a player of his quality would've done some more in-depth analysis of players by now if he was really interested in helping out the town.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Adel, your experience playing with me should tell you otherwise. I think you're reaching.

Mith's plan seems solid to me.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Korlash, who do you think Mith is scum with, if he isn't scum with Adel? Who do you think Adel is scum with, if she isn't scum with Mith?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Why?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Adele, did you miss the part where I believe Adel and Mith are scum together? I subscribe to The Fonz's theory, remember? I didn't ask Korlash to exclude me from his response. If he thinks I may be scum with one or the other, that's his opinion. What's important to me is finding out what he thinks.

JDodge, scotmany, can we get your opinion in more detail before we run into the deadline?

[Mastermind of Sin]

This is something we should probably discuss now, on the offchance that we're wrong on our next lynch, although I feel the answer is fairly obvious and may have already been brought up. If we misstump and get down to 5 players, we're doing no more stumps, right? We play to lynch based on the majority of all players including stumps (because I think that system is best and there is way too much disagreement about finding a *different* plan to get anything into place that people can agree on), with the living players lynching a person if they get to majority. Or is there a better plan?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Are people convinced Mith is town? I just don't see that as true. Korlash thinks he's scum, I think he's scum, The Fonz thinks he's scum, Adel thinks he's scum...who exactly is

convinced

Mith is town? Adele, Glork, and who? I haven't really seen anyone coming to his defense except you, Adele. Why are you so adamant to make it seem like Mith will never be in danger of lynch? Are you buddying up to him, or are you trying to make it seem like there's no way you could be buddies after you are lynched (since you are one of the lead wagons atm)? An Adele-Mith pairing seems a lot more likely to me all of a sudden...

[Mastermind of Sin]

Adel and MoS both harping on an Adele/me pairing feels more like one of them is bussing/distancing from her than trying to get an innocent stumped - it makes sense to try to get me back in the mix (taking advantage of Korlash's position) either way, but if they were scum together then just letting Adele stump and blaming it on me after would be easier and make more sense. (Edge has to go to MoS, since he went Adel/mith first, and is still voting for Adel, and since it makes some sense for an innocent Adel to be throwing whatever she can at Adele and hoping something sticks at this point.)

Huh? How could I possibly be taking advantage of Korlash's position? He just recently voted you, afaik. I was suspicious of you beforehand, because I thought The Fonz's theory had a lot of merit to it. It feels like you've been coaching Adel along. Even now, with statements like "it makes some sense for an innocent Adel to be throwing whatever she can at Adele", you're giving her benefit of the doubt like she's someone you're trying to help along.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I don't look at you that way, Adel. But it's apparent that most everyone else seems to think you qualify as some sort of newish player, and you've done a pretty good job of bolstering that impression. Personally, I think you qualify up with everyone else in the game in terms of skill, but not everyone knows you like I do. I especially would not be surprised if this was the first game you've played with Mith, and your join date would make you seem like someone needing coaching if he was your scumpartner, especially since there hasn't been any scum discussion together since you joined the game (their only chance was when Quag was lynched). One thing this setup does is make the scum far less organized than a normal mafia game, so I think it's natural that an experienced player like mith might try to subtly coach along his newer scumbuddy Adel during the day.

[Mastermind of Sin]

MoS, you first expressed suspicion of me in 1402. Korlash listed me as his number one in 1393.

My bad, then. I didn't notice it.

I'm not giving Adel the benefit of the doubt because I'm trying to help her. I'm giving her the benefit of the doubt because of the situation (she and Adel are the main lynch candidates today, so there is a survival element that could be biasing anything she says - you, on the other hand, are in no danger of being lynched/asked to stump, and have more wiggle room for trying to gain an advantage for your scum partner now or for you if your partner goes down), and because of the type of player I perceive her to be (from seeing her in non-game threads, mostly - for example, I vaguely remember one comment about her playing in a non-standard way).

Nothing to do with her join date (which I hadn't looked at until just now) - I don't think of her as a newbie. Heck, I made her a Scummie judge. My comments toward her have been more along the lines that I

expect more

of her (as I know she's been around long enough to be able to form and express her own opinions about things, and she's been reluctant to do so in this game).

She joined this game well before you made her a Scummie judge, and I think it's entirely possible that your opinion of her changed somewhat in that time. I still believe you started the game with that opinion, and that it affected your actions. However, I could easily see it going the other way, too. I've seen players pull the "I expect more from you" on their scumpartner, as their way of pleading with their buddy to play better and not get themselves lynched.

Answer the question please. Unless your only reason for thinking I might be scum is that you think I'm coaching Adel. (Which obviously doesn't apply to the Adele/mith pairing you supposedly liked a few posts ago.)

I believe you could be scum with Adel because of the coaching. However, I believe you and Adele could be scum based on your little love/hate relationship you've been pull all game. At this point I'm paranoid enough that I could see that sort of distancing as valid, and some of the more recent posts have made it seem more like a possible scum-move than natural, as I pointed out.

Where are Iammars and The Fonz? The Fonz hasn't posted in quite some time, and Iammars STILL has yet to present any sort of analysis on his own.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Second, I don't think mith

has

been coaching you (at least, not as co-scum), as I believe him innocent.

Adele, I believe you're tunnel-visioned on mith being innocent. I think you need to take a step back and look at his interactions with other players. You're basing your entire analysis on the assumption that he is innocent. If you look at his interaction with Adel without assuming that he's innocent to begin with, he doesn't look so innocent anymore. You need to take the blinders off and actually take a closer look at him. I know where you are, because I was there earlier in this day, but I stepped back to take a look at everyone because I didn't trust the opinions I *thought* I had of everyone. I wanted a fresh look that could give me a more accurate read on everyone. I suggest you cast aside your current thoughts and do the same. Just about everyone in this game could use that in some form or another, but your blind faith in mith's innocence is bugging me, because it's just unnatural. No one should ever be so sure of someone's innocence that they blatantly ignore the scummy things they do.

[Mastermind of Sin]

The only way I would vote Mith is if we cannot get enough votes to lynch you, Adel. And I really don't think you would stick around to bus your scumpartner, either. But feel free to vote him if you think he's scum. I don't see you listing any reason to suspect him yet.

[Mastermind of Sin]

That last sentence made me lol, but I have no idea what the hell you are talking about, Adel. Could you elaborate?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Hmm. I haven't really noticed that about Adele. I'll have to disagree with you on that one, but maybe I just don't understand what you're talking about. Can you quote some examples and explain how she's doing that?

[Mastermind of Sin]

First off... What would make Quag go all stupid in the begining? Getting stuck with MoS and Adele as partners duh! Why was Pookey and not MoS Killed that night? huh? do you see? DO YOU SEE? Shall I go on? MoS/Adele.... The only two trees not to replace out! dun dun dun! COINCIDENCE? I think not!

At least you admit this is crap logic...did you forget that Quagmire decided to bandwagon me and Adele before roles were even sent out? His D1 behavior was pre-decided regardless of his role. I just think that he tried to go even farther as scum and try to get away without being even considered for lynch D1. But we've already been over that way too many times, no need to rehash it.

<.< Who meticulusly said the exact thing that would make an idiot like me stump? MoS! DO YOU SEE?

Except, I don't think of you as an idiot, although you are a little...erratic. I did not expect you to actually stump early.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Thanks for being useful, JDodge.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Unofficial Vote Count:

6 to lynch.

Adele: 4 (Adel, scotmany12, mith, Glork)
Adel: 3 (Adele, The Fonz, MoS)
MoS: 2 (Iammars, JDodge)
mith: 1 (Korlash)

I'd go MoS strongly over Adel at this point. Adel's answer to my question is exactly the sort of dangerous play I would expect from her as town, but not so much as scum.

Last time I saw Adel as scum, she employed very dangerous play like that. If you haven't read Mini 458, you should. I would actually expect her to make dangerous plays MORE as scum than as town, especially since she's done it TWICE now in games where she was scum and I was town. She pulled off a gambit in Newbie 540 that could've exposed her own scumbuddy as obvscum very easily without really doing much to help her own position either. If you think she's not likely to make dangerous plays as scum, you're either completely unfamiliar with Adel or purposefully misrepresenting her in order to justify switching to me now.

MoS's, on the other hand, lacks substance. Fair enough if he wants to keep me as a possible suspect (I'm as innocent as a... very innocent thing, but it would be poor play to competely ignore everything I do), but he seems far more concerned with that than with actually making a case.

Huh? If I had some big case against you, I'd be voting you right now. You're acting like I'm trying to get you lynched without any evidence. I have evidence that you may be scum with other people, but that's dependent on them being scum in the first place. I don't have any other evidence, and I never claimed to have more than that. You're insinuating that I promised some sort of big case and didn't deliver. That's just bullshit.

That his reason for the Adele/mith pairing is about as compelling as "Well, they

could

be scum together" strengthens my belief that he's scum with Adele and trying to keep his options open when she goes down. (Also don't like the "I know where you are" bit of 1455. Feels like scum-MoS.)

Huh? How could you come up with that conclusion at all? If Adele died and came up scum, my first suspect would probably be Adel. The reason I realized you and Adele might be scum together is because I've been

trying

to come up with a pairing that involves Adele and NOT Adel. For the last few pages I couldn't see any pairing OTHER than Adele/Adel that involved Adele. But if Adel stumps instead of being lynched, Adele is either protown or I missed something. Therefore I've been trying to see if she had any connections with other players, and I saw her tied to you.

Also, what exactly does "feels like scum-MoS" mean? I'd really like you to quantify that in a way that is not you just making a gratuitous statement that makes me look worse, when you haven't actually presented any new evidence along with it. I don't like that bit of 1477. Feels like scum-Mith.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Iammars STILL has yet to present any sort of analysis on his own

I thought I said that I was playing more on gut than analysis in reference to the past, and that the analysis would come on posts in the present. I'm much better in the present than in the past.

Everything is in the past, Iammars. You haven't even analyzed anything recent, either, much less anything from the past. That's not going to fly with me, Iammars. Gut doesn't cut it at this point. I want you to actually contribute, because it really looks like you're *trying* to avoid being useful. I don't see why anyone is letting you get away with it. Mith just seems to be happy that you agree with him, so he doesn't bother to push you to act protown and be helpful. I don't really see that as a protown action on his point. But I digress. We're talking about you. You need to step up and be a player, or we might as well replace you with someone who's actually going to be helpful.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I don't have time to read through two complete games and figure out what you're talking about. What did she do?

By "dangerous" I don't mean that it's dangerous for her to do if she

is

scum. What I mean is that it was dangerous play for a townie to make. It's borderline bad play (may even fall under LAL). What makes me think she wouldn't do it as scum isn't so much the "lie" itself, but that she 'fessed up to it. The combination doesn't make sense. That doesn't completely rule her out in my mind (this game has not exactly been full of good sense), but it's enough to make me feel very good about you and Adele being scum together.

I thought you were already talking about the fessing up to it. I wasn't talking about the lie itself, either. The action on the whole WOULD be a dangerous thing to do as scum, so I file it under the same category of the other games. She pulled out a big questionnaire on D1 of a newbie game to try and manipulate the town into lynching the claimed doc through loaded questions. Fortunately for her, i misinterpreted the intention of the gambit and misled the town D1, after which point she promptly killed me. In another mini game, she blatantly buddied up to me for about 25 pages and then decided to go blatantly for my lynch (this was all still in the same day, too) because she judged me too dangerous to leave alive, even though I had a town read on her up to that point. She committed to sacrificing herself for the possibility of getting me lynched D1. She's ballsy enough to pull all sorts of gambits in a game. I think she was trying to convince people that she suspected you, then hang them out to dry if she got them to go after you. That would've worked great, since it would've stopped you from being lynched and gotten another townie stumped.

I don't think you're trying to get me to stump

now

. You're not Korlash, you know that's not going to happen. What I am suggesting is that you are scum with Adele, are trying to give the town more options to stump/lynch instead of you (and are reaching in doing so). If Adel is the only option, you lose, because we can be wrong once.

At least I've presented a connection between you and other players that actually makes sense for you to be scum with them...

As for that last, didn't we already go through this with Adele? Sometimes I have feelings. Sometimes they can't be quantified. Very clever though, repeating what I said. I see what you did there.

Thanks. I get clever when I get pissed off. I get tired of being a fucking Cassandra all the time, so that's what you get.

[Mastermind of Sin]

scotmany, Glork, and Korlash need to choose between myself and Adel. It looks like one of us is going to be the lynch/stump of the day.

I'd like to hear more from The Fonz, who seems to have disappeared. I'd also like JDodge to actually contribute something before we fall into yet another misstump, because this is the last one we can afford.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Ugh. Why!?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Vote: MoS

If you must have a reason, I think a simple I agree with Glork and his analysis would be sufficient.

You mean the analysis that I already defended myself against completely, to the point that Glork didn't even have any further responses to it?

[Mastermind of Sin]

So let's get this straight, Mith. You think that I am acting like normal scum-MoS, and I'm trying to paint you as scum for when Adele (my supposed scumpartner) dies?

[Mastermind of Sin]

So let's get this straight, Mith. You think that I am acting like normal scum-MoS, and I'm trying to paint you as scum for when Adele (my supposed scumpartner) dies?

MoS, that pretty much sums it up.

Then how do you account for the fact that scum-MoS never knows who his scumpartners are? If you think I'm giving off tells like I do when I'm scum, you have to account for the fact that in every game where I'm scum, I promptly forget who my scumbuddies are as soon as I start playing, which means that if I am scum, I wouldn't know if Adele was my scumpartner. If you claim to be able to "feel" scum-MoS, you would have to take that into account, because that's a more solid meta than anything else you'd have on me. I always play like that, what would make this game any different?

[Mastermind of Sin]

And just so you don't think I'm ignoring you and try to use that as a bullshit argument against me, I acknowledge the stump call, but there's no way in hell I'm going to use up our last stump without finishing this discussion. You can blame Glork for switching votes in the middle of an important point.

[Mastermind of Sin]

MoS, you can't force yourself to forget something. It's a crappy defense, and you shouldn't use it. And even if you somehow can, there was already a night. If you are scum, I'm going to guarantee that you and your scum partner talked during the night. So you would know who your partner is for all of day 2.

You haven't been scum with me before, have you? I purposefully tell my scumbuddies in pre-game that they are not to pm me under any circumstances, and I ask the mod to inform them if there is no pre-game.

I'm not stalling for time. You all know when the deadline is, but considering that all of a sudden I went from not even being in the top 2 to becoming a stump majority in a matter of like 3-4 days, I think I have the right to point out how wrong Mith's argument against me is, because we still have a chance to lynch Adel instead. Everyone here is active enough for me to make my point well before the deadline becomes a problem. Don't complain about me bringing up more points in my defense when some very unexplained votes were placed against me, giving me nothing to defend against in the first place. If there was a case against me that I had been unable to properly address, this wouldn't be a problem.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Also, I'd like to suggest that the living players make sure there are at least 3 votes on me or Adel NOW. If we have 3 votes on someone at deadline, they will either stump as town or be lynched as scum. This way there is absolutely no complaint you can make about continuing to discuss my defense, because someone will die on or before the deadline. As Mith so conveniently pointed out, I'm obviously checking the thread a lot, so I can stump before deadline if I'm about to be lynched. There is no reason not to do this, because if I'm scum I'll still die at deadline. Just make sure there are 3 votes, which is the deadline majority.

[Mastermind of Sin]

It only takes 4 to lynch? I thought it was 5 (ie because 3 would be half majority), that's why I made the suggestion. That's a bad idea, then, obviously. I didn't realize it was 4 to lynch.

[Mastermind of Sin]

But yea, either way I didn't think about the hammah-and-win possibility. My brain is not working on a strategic level lately. Just look at Quack mafia....-_-

[Mastermind of Sin]

(Kinda tempted to leave it at that to see if MoS blows a fuse, but...)

MoS, you can try as hard as you like to forget who you're scum with. You might even be more successful at it than most, given you play in so many games. No one forgets completely, though. (Nor should they, since, much like the Quag nonsense earlier, it's completely against the spirit of the game if someone could actually wipe their memory as scum.)

If you can forget IRL, the "you" in the game could forget as well. If I was a mafia person in meatworld infiltrating a bloodthirsty town, I would still do my best to forget who I'm working with in case one of us gets interrogated. I don't think it's against the spirit of the game, and I'm demonstrably VERY good at it. If you looked around the forum even a little, you could easily find examples of games where I've pmed the mod asking if certain people were my scumpartners and

been wrong

. The evidence is there, so I don't see any reason for you not to accept it.

[Mastermind of Sin]

MoS, you can't make yourself forget something. it is very simply. If you are trying to force yourself to forget something, you are thinking about whatever you want to forget even more. You end up burning what you are trying to forget into your mind. Anyways, you want to stump now?

I don't make myself forget something. I just forget it by not thinking about it. It's very easy to do when you play 20+ games at once. I don't have a partner in this game, since that would require me to be scum, but if I was scum, I wouldn't know who my partner was anyways. Most of the "case" against me seems to be based on, well, nothing. If someone wants to point to any logic brought against me that I haven't shown to be false, feel free.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'm watching the deadline. I'm going to give it my best shot to defend myself before using up our last stump, because I'm not certain we can figure out which of Adel/Adele/Mith are the two scum without messing up, and that's even if the scum is in those three. Iammars is still acting very much like scum and refusing to help the town, so it's imperative that we lynch correctly today.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Because me stumping uses our last chance to be wrong. I want to make sure that everyone at least feels justified in doing that. Which means they should back up their votes with reasoning.

[Mastermind of Sin]

As much as it pains me to actually agree with someone in this game... I'm afraid MoS should be lynched. Way I see it, either he is scum doing a poor gambit, or he is town that will end up losing us the game and so I feel better about myself. Win/Win in my book...

I'm not going to end up losing the game for us if we lynch Adel instead. It's fairly obvious that she's scum, look how she's now implying that she's willing to vote for me even though she has not presented any case against me or even shown what parts of someone else's case she agrees with. On top of that, she's phrasing her statements in a way that allow her to take back what she's said because it was merely

implied

and she never said it outright. Adel is hedging her bets and also trying to put herself in a position to support my lynch without having to justify it.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Honestly, I think MoS would have stumped by now if he was town. I have very little doubt that he is scum. Unless, of course, MoS wants to stump and prove me wrong. Or you can stump if you are scum cause that would be so very cool as well.

Apparently I'm more concerned about the town's ability to find 2 scum without fucking up than you are.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Yeah, you can do that as a stump so that argument doesn't help you at all.

You obviously don't understand. If I stump, the town has to find both scum without fucking up at this point. If we lynch scum today instead, we have room for error.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Hmm. I am really fucking tired of getting lynched for all the wrong reasons. One of these days someone is going to bother to make a good case against me. ONE FUCKING GAME, PLEASE. MAKE A FUCKING CASE, FOR FUCK'S SAKE.

Unvote, Vote: Mastermind of Sin

[Mastermind of Sin]

You guys deserve this.

[Mastermind of Sin]

The game mostly went how I anticipated it would go. I didn't expect Quagmire to self destruct immediately day 1, and I didn't quite anticipate Korlash. But I suspected that Tree Stumps would hurt town as much as they helped, mainly because stumping removes the cooling down effect of night. I'll note that the most useful Tree Stump was the one who replaced into the game.

No shit Sherlock. There's a damn good reason the mafia went to lengths to make sure that everyone who was a tree stump was either viewed as completely uncredible and would not be listened to by the town, or that they would be wrong even if they were listened to. The players that could benefit from being confirmed town were nont allowed the chance to become tree stumps. We killed Pooky night 1 and made sure mith was considered protown for most of the game. Had Glork not been allowed to replace into the game, Adel would've been misstumped and we probably could've quicklynched Mith based on The Fonz leading the charge against him.

For the record, I thought my scumbuddy was Adel. I distanced the fuck from her before I died. Ironically, the only person to read me correctly was The Fonz! LMAO...

[Mastermind of Sin]

Yeah, there was virtually no chance I was going down if Adel had stumped. I'm not even convinced she would've gotten a majority in the first place - but it's impossible to say, because Day 2 Part 5 would've played out entirely differently.

MoS, replacements are always annoying as scum, because they usually hurt you. That is, unfortunately, just something we have to deal with on the internet. I don't think you can blame Thok for this, though. As I kept saying, the tree stumps were still players in the game, and had to be treated as such.

Mod-Confirmed innocents are a little different from your standard replacement.

Aside from the spirit of the game argument (which I think deserves it's own thread at some point), I think you have demonstrated a rather major flaw in the "I don't know who I'm scum with" ploy. Let's say there was one less townie (for whatever reason), and you got lynched. You've distanced Adel strongly. It comes down to a decision between Adele and Adel, and most everyone is fooled by your clever distancing. So Adele gets lynched... and you lose the game, because you didn't know who you were scum with.

The point is, if you have forgotten who you are scum with, and you guess based on what's going on in the game, either you will guess correctly (and so you might as well know for sure, because you're going to be playing that way) or you won't (and you're probably playing sub-optimally).

Also - if you thought Adel was scum with you, why didn't you just ensure Adele got lynched?

I didn't think the Adele wagon needed my help. Adele was leading the votes most of the time against the competing Adel wagon, so it was a win-win situation for me. Either Adele gets stumped and I'm not responsible for it, or Adel gets lynched and I look really good. The game wouldn't have ended if Adele got stumped, so there was no reason for me to go out of my way to push it. I didn't expect everyone to all of a sudden stop going after Adele and try to kill me.

(For what it's worth, I would have voted for you when I did even if I had been

certain

that you wouldn't know who your buddy was as scum. I was pretty confident Adele was scum - based on reading her, not links - and it was as much or more Adel's behavior that persuaded me that she was less likely to be Adele's partner than you. I believed what I said - that your posts were consistent with behavior I would expect from a MoS/Adele pairing - so I got that wrong if you really didn't know she was scum.

Not that I'm entirely convinced you

didn't

know who you were scum with. If you really believe it's good play - and I hope to convince you otherwise - you have every reason to lie about it now to use as an example later on. But whatever.)

*shrug* You can ask Thok. I pmed him after I died to double-check who my partner was. It's not that I tried to forget who my partner was, I just got it wrong. Since we hadn't had a night in a long time, I didn't have any reason to remember who my partner was, but I thought I remembered despite that. I was very much lying in this instance about forgetting who my partner was, but not because I knew it was Adele. I *thought* it was Adel, and I was essentially forced to adopt a non-optimal playstyle because I *couldn't* forget it was her.

I think this setup has two big flaws in it. The first is that mod-confirmed tree stumps are a huge boon for the town when you allow them to be replaced. None of the tree stumps besides Glork were given any credit when they voiced their opinions, and I worked my hardest to make sure that happened. The stumps seemed to be less interested in the game because the town treated them like dirt, and I

wanted

it to be that way. That was part of my strategy to counteract the fact that they were mod-confirmed innocents. By replacing them when they finally lost interest to the point of no longer posting in the game, the mafia's best strategy against the town has been taken away by the mod.

Secondly, the fact that this is nightless (for the most part) hurts the mafia a lot. I believe this setup would be improved if the mafia were allowed more regular communication, because part of the balance between and informed minority and an uninformed majority is that they can strategize things. Any strategies we would've made on Night 1 when we killed Pooky are hardly relevant after getting 4 people to stump. The fact that we couldn't talk to each other meant that we each had to play our own game and wonder wtf the other person was doing. Even worse, in this case, was that the lack of communication caused me to mistake who my partner was. Ironically, I think if my plan had succeeded, it would have lost the game for us, since my lack of involvement in an Adele lynch would've probably doomed me to lynch myself, once I realized my mistake.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I still feel like the main complaint here is that a "weak" player was replaced with a strong one - which can happen with any replacement - not that a stump was replaced at all.

Not at all. If Glork had replaced d3sisted, there would not have been any problem. I could have cast doubt on the legitimacy of his words because it was still possible that he was scum. The problem was that a tree stump was replaced. I don't care who they were replaced with, because whoever it was would be listened to more than the person who disappeared. Even if Battle Mage came into the game instead of Glork, I would've appealed the decision.

[Mastermind of Sin]

"confirmed innocent" is not the same as "mod-confirmed, unkillable, unlynchable, innocent"

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'd just like to clear up a few things now that the game is over.

1) I did not, and I will never use RL circumstances to attempt to gain favor in a mafia game. When I speak of RL circumstances in a game, I am stepping outside of my alignment completely.

2) Following up with 1, I did intend to complete my massive analysis that I had promised, and I told the complete truth regarding that. There were no "stall" tactics involved there.

3) I'd just like to point out that some of the following discussions have led directly to me leaving the site:

Glork, I'd appreciate it if you don't automatically add derisive comments to everything you say, especially when you're wrong.

Overdefensive much? Go find one other "derisive comment" I've directed towards you in this thread. I'm pretty sure I made two extremely long posts analyzing nearly 30 pages of the game and stuck strictly to business. And instead of responding to any of the content in those long analyses, you're choosing to get hussy over one comment pointing out the fact that I think you're scum.

So yeah. I want you lynched. You're behaving very typically from what I'd expect from MoS-scum right now.

And regardless, that comment didn't help anything. You appended it to a comment that was completely wrong, on top of that. If you want to point out that you think I'm scum, present cases and vote me. Don't just go around shouting that I'm scum. That doesn't accomplish anything. Everyone already knows you think I'm scum, because you posted a case. There is absolutely no reason to be obnoxious about it, Glork. You know better than that.

Sure it did.

You see, I am an egocentric, arrogant, vocal, and extraordinarily stubborn bastard of a mafia player.

I like saying things that make me feel that I have control over a game.

You're still scum, and now I am considering making a snide comment in every single post I make, simply to antagonize you.

Of course, that would hurt if you were town. But since you're scum, I'm okay with putting you on edge.




Have a good day, sir.

I do not join mafia games to be treated with disrespect, especially after I politely ask a person to treat me less derisively. I do not need to deal with bullshit in that regard, so it is clear that my presence is no longer welcome enough on this site that I could be extended even that simple courtesy.

[Mastermind of Sin]

If anyone felt upset by what I had said, I would immediately respect any request on their part to NOT make comments like that. Even if I felt that my posts were NOT being derisive, I would at least make a conscious effort to control my comments from then on. Glork consciously became MORE derisive and arrogant in response to a simple request. There's a huge difference there.

my two cents worth:

1. the setup was balanced.

Definitely not.

2. inactive stumps ought to be replaced like an inactive living player

Definitely not.

3. if I was Adele I would be pissed off at my partners for adopting sub-optimal tactics regarding role PMs, unless either one of them are liars and cleared it with her before hand or at least apologised for it later... in which case it would be gravy.

Good game y'all, and thanks for replacing in Glork.

I hope you meant "partner", cuz I didn't do anything like that in this game.

[Mastermind of Sin]

*sigh*

Again, I didn't attempt to forget who my scumbuddy was in this game. This setup was different, and I thought that the nightless aspect would require that I know who my scumbuddy was in order to play better. I just forgot who my scumbuddy was

on accident

.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Because I didn't realize I had forgotten. I

thought

I knew who my scumbuddy was. There was no realization that I could have been wrong on that point. I must have just gotten confused during the duration of the game.

[Mastermind of Sin]

my two cents worth:

1. the setup was balanced.

Definitely not.

Sigh.

(Btw, Thok, 4-8 has an EV of 17% for the town.)

Moutainous != Nightless + Talking mod-confirmed innocent dead people that mafia can't get rid of