Mini 517: Tree Stump Mafia: Game Over
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Actually, I'm very bright (sorry). What recent events? What "principle"?Quagmire wrote:hey jdodge, scotmany:
instead of bandwagoning and trying to lynch mos, do you want to go for adele instead? she's really stupid and recent events show that she would be just as worthwile a "principle lynching" as mos...
That's an antigame approach. I object.Qugmire wrote:p.s. i have not looked at my role, nor do i plan to throughout the course of this game
It seems to me we have a "mountainous"-style setup here (where nights are vital to the scum's success) and an ability to avoid going to night. Simply put, I suggest that once someone gets to L-2, if two people who aren't voting for that person chant "stump" then that person should stump themselves and we won't have to go to night.
Of course, the scum may as well just refuse an get lynched, so it may not be possible to avoid having 2 nights - but that's all. I can't see how this wouldn't move the balance of the game towards the town. Any thoughts?- Adele
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QFT.PookyTheMagicalBear wrote:I'm in favor of killing him now.
He's just going to be a impediment to us if he is going to be playing that way.
He claims he hasn't read his role and uses this as an excuse to act anti-town. "My scummy behaviour isn't actually scummy because of this third factor that you cannot verify!"
Am I missing something here?
vote: Quagmire- Adele
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Unless you lied about not checking your role pm because you're scum.Quagmire wrote:i understand your sentiments to lynch me but just so you know i have just as much of a chance as everyone else to be town as mafia
Also: do you have a reason for that, at all, or have you just decided, since you've not checked your role pm and so don't know what your role is, that you don't care which way the game goes and so just want to randomise the whole thing?
Come on, quag. Most people (i hope) are actually here to play the game, not screw around. If they're really okay with the first murder being truly random (since you decided to gun for me before I even posted), then there's not much point any of us being here, is there?- Adele
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If we let people off being lynched because they refuse to treestump, refusing to stump will become the dominant strategy for town and scum alike. However, I agree that a quicklynch is a Bad Thing (tm).
I was stunned to have four votes on me at the end of page 2, and didn't pay much attention to how many votes were on quag. So, for now:
Unvote
however, I won't support antitown play by inaction. If quag won't retract or agree to play a solidly protown game (you know, post "ok, I checked and guess what? I'm a tree! Shocker, no?" so we can get on with the game we're here to play) then I support his lynching.- Adele
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Do you mean, in general? Because when we play the game we intuitively use bayesian probabilities to adjust the likelihood up or down. As in:Korlash wrote:I don't... But I know there is a higher chance he is town then he is mafia. And a pretty equal chance he is power role town and vanilla town. But you have made it clear you do not care if he is town or mafia, you just want him dead. So why do you suddenly care if he is town?given thatX is acting so scummy, he's more probably scum.
Now, I don't know if Quagmire looked at his role pm or not. It appears to me that he said that he hadn't and wouldn'tafterit arrived; so he could very well have read it, found himself to be scum, and decided to try to get a free pass (because he "doesn't know" so is "probably town") for acting thouroughly anti-town (eg refusing to stump under pressure, when it's clear that refusing to stump and thus forcing the town to lynch you only causes more nights which benefits the scum). He's acting scummy, and we're taking his word that he doesn't know if he's scum or not?
Scumhavebeen known to lie, you know.
There also appear to be people who say that if someone refuses to stump then, rather than lynch them, we should harrass someone whoiswilling to stump into stumping. Ifthat'sour policy, then I will refuse to stump (as a last-ditch effort to save myself) and so should everyone else; it becomes the dominant strategy for town and scum alike. Let me clarify: we should ask people to selfstumpin place ofbeing lynched; if they refuse we should lynch them. We should therefore, obviously, treat a stumping as seriously as a lynching, as it might turn out to be just that if they refuse.
At the moment I think it's about even odds that Quag's scum or town, and so far it's been going up every time he posts. Let's see if that trend reverses...- Adele
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The "good reason" is about benefiting you specifically, not the side you are on. Unless you are a survivor role, you are not working towards your WC.Quagmire wrote:
i'm not playing "half assed," i don't know how many times i need to pound this into your thick skullspooky wrote:Frankly speaking, you are doing your side a tremendous disservice regardless of which team you happen to be on. The later you make it into the game, the more your distraction will be a detriment to the town and the more powerful your vote will be.
I don't like the idea of a vote being in the hands of a player who is going to play halfassed like this, and I'll do my best to get rid of him early rather than to have him screw us up late.
there's a good reason that i'm not reading my role pm, and i've detailed this earlier, and i will not repeat this again
Actually, pooky's arguments make sense to me. Saying "your argument sucked but if I point out how you'll just ignore me" is a really appalling argument, and something which I can't see any better option to do with than dismiss. It's not a counterargument of any kind whatsoever, so how can I take it into account? You disagree with Pooky that you're full of crap? Well, shocker.Quagmire wrote:there are good reasons that i'm not stumping, which i've already detailed. pooky, your argument before the part of your post that i quoted sucks so badly, i'm not even going to address it with anything other than you're trying to back me into a corner instead of actually try and figure out what i am (because if i were to respond to anything you say, you'll just dismiss it as wifom and call me scum or whatever)
And one more time: how do I know you aren't lying about that? How do I know you didn't make the "won't check my role pm" as a pre-emptive once you'd read taht you were scum?Quagmire wrote:and i find this pretty ironic that you guys feel like you're trying to guess what i am, because i don't know what i am, so there's absolutely no way that anyone could guess what i am based off of my actions
OK, let's draw a larger point. Let's universalise your maxim. Say no-one opened their role pm and everyone played blind. What would the result be? A random D1 lynch and no additional information to work off of the next day (by which time people presumably are aware). This is a disservice to the town, when each individual is more likely to be town than scum. Is it balanced by a much larger service to the scum? No, it's the same size. Meanwhile, you've wasted however much time playing a game that isn't mafia, and hopped into a swingier setup.
So, why does your plan make sense for the one, but not the many? I'm serious: you claim it benefits you (which it might, but only once you attain a bad metagame rep), but I don't see how it benefits whichever side you are on today.- Adele
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Don't have time for a long one here; I agree it might be worth looking around, but, while I'm grateful that Quag explained himself, I'm still suspicious of him. Here's my response to his pro-not-checking-explain post:
Okay. I'll buy that someone might genuinely feel that not knowing their role for D1 ultimately benefits their side. They might, they might not.
The only person here, though, who knows whether you're telling the truth about all this is you. I can't treat it as game-relevant information when there's no verifiability to it.
Not checking your role pm = maybe
Expecting others' attitudes towards your play to change because of it = no
Voting youbecauseyou said you didn't check your role pm = meh
Voting you in spite of your claim of not checking your role pm = yeah
I'm suspicious of you for other stuff besides the not-checking-role...ness:
1. Early random bandwagon encouragement
2. Refusing to treestump over getting lynched
3. Not answering questions straight (and, if your counterargument to something is wifomable, then that does reflect on the quality of the counterargument)
4. Appearing to expect a free pass due to not checking role.
5. If I'm stringently honest, the insulting of memayhave further influenced it. At least, I always try to stay concious when I'm frustrated with someone how much that colours my suspicion of them.
At the end of the day, you are expecting people to treat you differently because of a factor that cannot be tested or verified. Why would I do that?- Adele
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Why don't you just check your role pm now then? Seems hypocritical to me. Anyone who asks for a free pass is a worthwhile target to me.Quagmire wrote:
mith, what i'm saying is that you should *at the very least* wait until tomorrow, where you guys won't hurt yourselves in lynching me. essentially, what you're doing here is policy lynching me, and it's not going to benefit the town until i've become a "normal" player.mith wrote:Quag, I understand that you are saying you haven't opened your role. And I understand that until you do so, I will be pushing for your lynch. And I understand that you getting lynched, or being forced to stump, will hurt whichever team you happen to be on.
I believe that's five.
Quagmire wrote:silverphoenix: i figured that i'd vote for adele before the game started because she tried to argue against the theory of gravity, and there's not going to be any better information for me to pursue on day one.whichtheory? FFS...- Adele
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This is what I make the VC to be at:
Quagmire: 5 (d3sisted, pooky, Mastermind of Sin, mith, max)
silverphoenix: 2 (Jdodge, scotmany12)
Adele: 1 (Quagmire)
Korlash: 1 (Korlash)
scotmany12: 1 (silverphoenix)
And, in case it's not obvious, I'm ready to vote for you. Hell, I've been ready to vote for you for several pages now. One last chance: Stump. Now. I'll be dropping my vote in 24 hours.- Adele
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?JDodge wrote:The whole case on Quag is that he's supposedly scum for not wanting to stump
DecidingAdele wrote:1. Early random bandwagon encouragement
2. Refusing to treestump over getting lynched
3. Not answering questions straight (and, if your counterargument to something is wifomable, then that does reflect on the quality of the counterargument)
4. Appearing to expect a free pass due to not checking role.againstlynching someone because they refuse to do as the town demands ftl.- Adele
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Suggest that if it's all that painful for you, you request replacement rather than self-destruct and harm your side.Korlash wrote:Please I still hold to my "I would rather stump today then have yesterday keep going what with how retarded every single person in this thread is."
You're against what you just did?Korlash wrote:I am still firmly against what just happened
For what? Playing "retardedly"? I didn't think a whole lot ofKorlash wrote:I'm not going to defend my hammer because it was a plain dumb move. I only did it because I was pissed at all of you.yourplay yesterday, actually; you flip-flopped a lot, much like you're doing now.Korlash wrote:Do you honestly think a scum would be that stupid...That's your defence? That's practically thedefinitionof one of the forms of wifom. That argument it, to my view, so unsound that there was no use in posting it at all.
Ugh: Korlash
Theory=that quag and silver were scumbuddies. Has its merits, consideringmith wrote:But, sticking with my theory from yesterday,Vote: SilverPhoenix
... "I can't trust a scumbuddy as bad as you not to bring us all down with you, so I'm bussing you now"?SilverPhoenix wrote:Vote: Quagmire
I can't take it anymore. I'd rather kill you now then have to deal with your horrible play. It's not just that you are acting scummy, you are just playing horribly.
Although, that's notverystrong. Silver's one of the ones I want to read again in detail.
Whether it's the key to the game or not, it certainly seemed to me that people were clearly divisible yesterday:d3sisted wrote:
I suppose it's just a coincidence that those two were the only ones against Quagmire's lynch?Quagmire wrote:hey jdodge, scotmany:
instead of bandwagoning and trying to lynch mos, do you want to go for adele instead? she's really stupid and recent events show that she would be just as worthwile a "principle lynching" as mos...
Vote: JDodge
FoS scotmany
QuagLovas: jdodge, Scotmany
QuagUmmers: Aimee, Korlash
QuagHaters: Adele, d3sisted, MoS, Max, mith, pooky, silverphoenix
I really wanna hear more from Aimee and Max, btw.
I'm writing a player analysis - I'll post it after work. More soon.- Adele
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Aimee: played weak, hardly posted. Never voted, barely posted any suspicions. Need to hear more from her, like, yesterday. On the other hand, has done nothingwrong... which doesn't make it okay. Neutral on herso long asshe brings her game upright now.
d3sisted: hated quag from the go, never really even thought about anything else, voted him early, but then did lift the vote when quag was near-lynch "to prevent self-lynch"
JDodge: part of the Adele hatewagon, supported quag to the extent of voting silverphoenix and d3sisted (two of the easier-to-attack quaghaters), defended quagmire passionately on the ground that his allocation was still Schrodinger-tacular. If he'd had his way, Quagmire would be alive at least until we'd caught another scum, and maybe by then we'd've forgotten about him.
Korlash: Selfvoted (woo). Didn't want to lynch quag because quag wouldn't stump, so there'd be a night (also, didn't want a quicklynch). Requested replace on quag ("possibly trying to swap in a bad partner for a good one?" lol). Eventually just got sick of him. Seemed to be a lot of contradictions, and flip-flopping.
Max: Posted little. Hated Quag. Voted quag. Theorised that quag wouldn't have been allowed in the game if he'd not checked his role, and said that confirming /in without checking role is essentially a lie. Don't know how he'll go in the future; been pretty one-note so far. Don't really have a read on him, but so far like what he's done
Mith (replaces Bapa Bail): Bapa bail was hoppy and unhelpful. Mith, the opposite (<3). Already established as a solid, determined, and potentially town-leading player; slight worry if he's scum, but then Bapa Bail didn't look very scummy, and he seemed a very weak player who'd've looked scummier were he scum.
Mastermind of Sin: dice-tag vote, which I'm always so fond of, then switched to Quagmire; didn't believe Quag's claim to've not read his role (and, apparently, thinks anyone who does believe it to be somewhat naive). Held his vote on quag through to the end of day, and argued succinctly against some of the defenses put up against quagwagon.
scotmany12: part of the Adele hatewagon. Voted also silverphoenix. Defended Quagmire to the end:
I think I see wifom and "let my scumbuddy off for today at least pls!" here... just, nothing good.scotmany wrote:If quag does not know his role, then we should ignore him for today. Starting the next day we can focus on him. I also personally do not see scum trying to pull what he is doing. I believe that this is a waste of a lynch.
SilverPhoenix: Quaghater. Possibility here:
... "I can't trust a scumbuddy as bad as you not to bring us all down with you, so I'm bussing you now"?SilverPhoenix wrote:Vote: Quagmire
I can't take it anymore. I'd rather kill you now then have to deal with your horrible play. It's not just that you are acting scummy, you are just playing horribly.
Especially since, as soon as quag posted any kind of defence of his behaviour, silver jumps off the wagon. Never revoted quag. Not loving this guy.
So, my vague estimates of peoples' likelihood to be scum:
mith 10% (BUT both potentially the most helpful townie or most dangerous scum)
max 15%
mos 15%
aimee 20%
d3sisted 20%
silver 25%
korlash 30%
jdodge 35%
scotmany 35%
Adele 0%. (But that last one's just my opinion )- Adele
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you made 8 posts yesterday:Max wrote:Adele What do you want to here from me?
1. confirm
2. stump policy discussion
3. Basil Exposition
4. joke
5. joke, the "I think if people who are town refuse to stump they shouldn't really be town so really it's a simple error", whatever that means
6. Threaten to vote Quagmire
7. complain about people confirming without reading role pms
8. Vote Quagmire
Whilst I like the action you took, I feel you've undercontributed and not provided enough in the way of opinions or suspicions for us to evaluate you. You game has been too safe so far, and it limits my ability to judge your scumlikelihood.
so, what I want is... more. More posts, more serious posts, longer posts, more evaluating, argumentative, accusatory, defending (of yourself or others, as appropriate), more suspicions.- Adele
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Okay. Why not?SilverPhoenix wrote:
I do not see how all of these would add up to scum. A scum would not do all the tactics I did, or at least in the order I did them in and on the same player.mith wrote:As it is, I get the impression that SP wanted to join the growing bandwagon for distancing, got off in hopes that his scumbuddy could be saved, and then tried distancing again when it was clear Quag was going down.- Adele
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What's the case forJDodge wrote:
Please, refresh my memory; what was the case for Quag being scum thatAdele wrote:JDodge: part of the Adele hatewagon, supported quag to the extent of voting silverphoenix and d3sisted (two of the easier-to-attack quaghaters), defended quagmire passionately on the ground that his allocation was still Schrodinger-tacular. If he'd had his way, Quagmire would be alive at least until we'd caught another scum, and maybe by then we'd've forgotten about him.cannot be explained by him not reading his role PM?anyonebeing scum thatcannot be explained by them being townie playing badly?
The fact that somethingcan, potentially, explain something doesn't mean it's anywhere near sufficient, and Quag was misbehaving onseverallevels. Once more:
5. Plus generally making an arse of himself and annoying everyone, which can jam peoples' scumdarsAdele wrote:1. Early random bandwagon encouragement
2. Refusing to treestump over getting lynched
3. Not answering questions straight (and, if your counterargument to something is wifomable, then that does reflect on the quality of the counterargument)
4. Appearing to expect a free pass due to not checking role.
By-the-by, the fact that I've now had to post that list 3 times?Bigpart of my suspicion of quaglovas. This didn't come out of nowhere. There have beenloadsof posts in this game statingseveralgood reasons why quag needed to die, and certain people have been stubbornly ignoring them.
Now's the time to stop ignoring them, accept you were wrong, and move on.- Adele
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... oh, my, god. Suicide out of annoyance? I expected this more of korlash. Uncool, man; if you aren't willing to play anymore, ask to be replaced, don't just screw the town!SilverPhoenix wrote:The town needs to wake up. Seriously.
I didn't want this role. I wanted to be a Lumberjack! Leaping from tree to tree!
I don't really care if this is bad play. All I care about is the scum targeting a confused townie.
What do you mean, "All I care about is the scum targeting a confused townie", anyway?- Adele
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A joke vote is one thing. Two, even. On the basis of nothing at all, though, I was brought to L-3. That's a bit "WTF"?scotmany12 wrote:1. If you are talking about the early bw on adele, ever heard of joke voting? And if this is the case, why are you not singling out mith, because bp also was on that bandwagon.
And: mith took a radically different course of action than his predecessor - who was not just replaced, but was banned from the site a while back (under a different alt) for mucking games up. I think taking whatever opportunities one can to tack Bapa's misdeeds on mith's tail would be bad play.
I have a question for those who defended Quagmire: did you have any particular reason to think he was telling the truth?- Adele
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I would like to see it, if only for reassurance that you aren't merely buddying up with me. Also, while I don't really agree with Aimee's vote, I am looking forward to your response to it.Max, answering why he believed Adele to be town, wrote:It was in my long winded post which my computer crashed just before posting...
I'll have to write it later
/groan... then you'd better believe I'll be expecting aAimee wrote:No posting until Monday or Tuesday, no access.lotof quality content from you then.
JDodge: why are you voting d3sisted? I can see this
But doesn't that argument assume quagmire to be town, as we nowJDodge, D1, wrote:The Quagmire wagon is driven by two things IMO - a so-called "policy lynch" which is hypocritical but not necessarily scummy, and the opportunists like d3sisted and Max who just want a lynch so they can make use of one of their very few possible nightkill attempts. I'm willing to bet SP is the third scum, too, but the case on d3sisted compels me.knowhe wasn't?
btw, the people on d3sisted's wagon are jdodge and scotmany.
At least they're staying true to themselves, I guess... but it doesn't enhance the credibility of the d3sistedwagon - unless this is another joke wagon?
no, I see what you did there - you treated the "7 townies" as "7 man, 2 scum"; like a newbie (Korlash wrote:Also how many stumps can we have before it turns to LYLO? 3 more? Hmm... 12 players.. minus 3... thats 9... 2 mafia... 7 townies... nope... 3 stumps loses the game... so only two more stumps... huh... Did I count right?sanspower roles). Here's how it is, assuming all townies stump and no scum do. If 5 more townies stump before any more scum die, we lose. Interestingly, we don't get a softer safety net once one scum dies, since that gain is mitigated by an NK. For example, if we stump 3 townies then catch scum, D3 will open with 1 scum and 3 town; usually classic nolynch debate territory but because of the nature of this game, we'll have 2 shots, so at least a 50-50 chance.- Adele
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I, for one, not cool with that. If it was day 1, if we had a reason to trust or believe you, if you were AniX... but its not, we don't, you ain't. Pls spill.JDodge wrote:Eventually, but for now I want to see more before I disclose said reasons.
I don't really get them, I trust you (since why lie when you can so easily be caught), and I don't think it affects how we should play right now.Mastermind of Sin wrote:Adele, what do you think ofmystatistics? As far as averages go, at least...
<3 and all, but I don't think of myself as confirmed.d3sisted wrote:1) Followed Quagmire on Adele with absolutely no support whatsoever (does "I do not see him providing any substantial information." ring a bell?). Moreover, seeing as you followed a confirmed scum, I think we can safely assume Adele is town; therefore, you hunted a town.- Adele
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Decided what? To go after me as a lynch candidate (and, even if you claim your vote was a joke, quagmire acted as though I should seriously be the D1 lynch, and you didn't call him on that)? Actually, it looks from quagmire's first post that you agreed ahead of time to lynch mos. Then he changed his mind - and you obeyed him..scotmany12 wrote:Nice omgus. You are not confirmed town. Silver was scummy as hell. Adele is not confirmed town. Um, me, quag, and jdodge decided this before the game even started.
And yes I believe that to be true. On day 1, you made 10. You now have 14. I would say you are lurking. At the time that jdodge questioned you, you made 5. And yes, I don't see any substantial information. You are repeating ideas of others. Not once did you come up with your own idea. You did not push this lynched. You rode this bandwagon.
You question me for scumhunting? I was scumhunting, just look at me question silver. And if you are going to say that me thinking silver was scum, then you also have to look at jdodge and mith. I don't see any scumhunting from you. You let others question quag. I actually don't recall you once posing a question to quag. You might have been the first on the wagon, but you did not push it, or hunt for scum at all.
At the start of day 2, I had max scummier than you. But you put an opportunistic vote on jdodge. You still have yet to state why you did not even consider anything else, and simply go for the obvious person. That is being opportunistic.[/quote]
mith is one thing, jdodge is quite another. By which I mean, if you're going to point to jdodge doing the same as you as validating that action, then that's not gonna fly with me, because so far, you are as bad as each other.scotmany wrote:You question me for scumhunting? I was scumhunting, just look at me question silver. And if you are going to say that me thinking silver was scum, then you also have to look at jdodge and mith.
However, as you say, mith was looking closely at silver (as was I about to) so that's not necessarily a scumtell - however, since silver was a townie, it's not a pro-town tell either (as if those even exist).- Adele
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That's a lot... ok, I'm writing this post as I read. Just fyi.
Quag decided to switch to me. You decided to follow him. ThatScotmany wrote:Adele, I can't control what quag does. And originally it was going to be mos, but we switched to you.wsunder your control, as was your choice to not criticise him.
Korlash: damn, but you're posting a lot! Thanks and all, but it's tough to keep up.
/agree. It's like he wants to damage my credibility just to hurt someone else by association, because he perceives my credibility as to high to be a plausible lynch right now.Korlash wrote:Also I find it odd you talk about all these pints Adele made and yet vote for Silver… Weird… Only wanting to vote for townies others have already voted eh?
Which is why, ok, it's wifom, but it makes me slightly more reassured to see Korlash scrutinising me (and putting me together with mos). It reduces the chance of Korlash being scum in my eyes, but then marginally increases the chance of Korlash being scum with mos. So, I guess I'd better answer his case:
I said in that post I wanted to prevent aK wrote:
As much I as want to not believe in a partnership between them I find it funny mentioning how she would be all for a Quag lynch yet unvoted just the same…adele wrote:If we let people off being lynched because they refuse to treestump, refusing to stump will become the dominant strategy for town and scum alike. However, I agree that a quicklynch is a Bad Thing (tm).
I was stunned to have four votes on me at the end of page 2, and didn't pay much attention to how many votes were on quag. So, for now:
Unvote
however, I won't support antitown play by inaction. If quag won't retract or agree to play a solidly protown game (you know, post "ok, I checked and guess what? I'm a tree! Shocker, no?" so we can get on with the game we're here to play) then I support his lynching.quicklynch. Also, what did that post have to do with mos?
Today started with 8 town to 2 scum. Doesn't seem like a good plan to me. Again, how does that show the trio? I guess there was the early "me quag hate mos", but jdodge and scot say that happened pregame.K wrote:Seeing as how much Quag kept fighting more or less to get himself killed I am beginning to see the MoS, Adele, and Quag trio more and more. A good plan that could have very easily been thought of by MoS and Quag. While I like others more, if this turns out to be the case I am going to probably do a little jig… 9 times out of 10 I’m wrong though… No dance for me…
heh... at some point in the thread I think that was criticised as not long enough.K wrote:Kinda dumb to wait if you ask me… he has more or less said 50 times he will not stump.. waiting 24 hours is kinda dumb…
I don't really see it, any more than any other random pairing being scum with quag. But then, I guess I wouldn't.
Regarding Bapa Bail / mith: I usually hold replacements accountable for their predecessor's actions, save for lurking. However, there were 2 things about this case that made me not want to do that:
1) The reason why bapa bail was chucked off; because of a history of screwin' round
2) mith's first (2nd?) post was so vehemently at odds with bapa's attitude, and so firmly grounded, that it seemed only fair to wipe the BB slate.
Jdodge:
That doesn't count as a rebuttal, y'know...Jdodge wrote:Long posts are bad.
5-6 long posts are worse.
5-6 long posts consecutively with terrible logic are a violation of the Geneva convention.
1. He wasn't town.Jdodge wrote:Lynching town in a setup where lynching is bad is, in general, BAD
2. We had no reason to believe he was town
3. To avoid lynching people, we have to punish them if they refuse to stump. We can't just let "I won't stump!"-ers off the hook. Ironically, this is a case where if we want peace we must be prepared for war.
I think his point is,Jdodge wrote:HOW THE HELL
IS GOING AFTER PEOPLE FOR OPPORTUNISM
OPPORTUNISM?everything'sopportunism, in that in order to do something you must have the opportunity to do it.
Admittedly I find this whole post impossible to follow (way to include quotes but exclude the quotations from them), but did Jdodge just say he's scum with someone? Did Jdodge just tell us he's scum?Jdodge wrote:HOW THE HELL IS ME DISAGREEING WITH SOMEONE WHO I'M SCUM WITH FOR "BUDDYING UP TO THEM" SCUMMY?
edit: heh. "Paging dr freud".
OK. So, Korlash and Silver really don't get along with jdodge and scotmany... and that summarises pretty much the last page of posts. Yow.
I want to hear from max's replacement, and from mith and mos and aimee again... (I'm a bit worried that max never justified his Adele-trust before slipping out). To clarify, I wanna hear from max's replacement and aimee because they've gotten away with undercontribution, and from mith and mos because I've found their input to be of value.
And Jdodge, If you don't explain why you're voting d3sisted now, I'm going to vote for you. This isn't just going to fly under the radar, y'know.- Adele
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heh. That'd be my response. I can't speak for Quagmire, but he was quite rude to me outside of the game shortly before we got the roles, and seemed to carry that animosity in (will provide linky soon). I didn't know about the "let's kill Adele" conversation predating role send-out, though; thanks for the heads-up, mos.Mastermind of Sin wrote:I was fine letting DGB's "theory" slide as a possibility until I saw this gem.
First off, I want to check what you meant by "Quagmire's 'case'". If you mean the fact that he was trying to get Adele lynched, I think half the people in this game can confirm that he was telling everyone in scumchat he would lynch Adele and then MoS before role pms were even sent out. So of course his "case" against Adele was completely baseless. If you were referring to the caseDrippingGoofball wrote:
I REPEAT: "Massive Day 1 distancing with Adele, and vice-versa. I bet the farm that Adele is scum #2. Textbook case here." Adele and Quagmire were distancing big time. Especially when you combine the baselessness of Quagmire's "case," and its relentless aggressivity. Adele and Quagmire are buddies. 95% sure, Bayesian calculator in hand (hey, my husband teaches Bayesian statistics to PhD students, so there, I should know, osmotic transfer of knowledge and all).scotmany12 wrote:DBG, why do you think adele is scum? Also there is only 2 scum left. Silver can also not be scum as he is innocent when he stumped.againstQuagmire, then we have other problems, since it was far from baseless.
As for myself, I'm feeling... smug. I called it, I pushed it. I didn't want to quicklynch him, but I regard myself as an integral part of his wagon (especially pre-mith). You seem to have just turned on the person who got on least well with the confirmed scum as "obvscum", and that doesn't seem a reliable method to me.
Just to clarify:Isthis random/stirring/D1-style hijinks? I can't really tell with you.- Adele
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Because I didn'tDrippingGoofball wrote:
Bold mine. Over-distancing blowback is what it is. And look! You didn't want toAdele wrote:As for myself, I'm feeling... smug. I called it, I pushed it.I didn't want to quicklynch him, but I regard myself as an integral part of his wagon (especially pre-mith). You seem to have just turned on the person who got on least well with the confirmed scum as "obvscum", and that doesn't seem a reliable method to me.quicklynch him. And why not? If you're town, you'd want his head on a platter, pronto.knowthat he was scum, and I wanted to give him every chance to redeem himself and start playing constructively.
I'm not sure I like this. I certainly did put numbers on my list - and mith, you'll note those numbers add up to 200 - because, why not?DGB wrote:Adele put you low-ish on her suspicion list, and Korlash was high, but not the highest. That is why. Adele is distancing herself from Korlash a great deal more, and she put a number on it so that there cannot be an argument. Thank you Adele!
My questions for you, then, are:
1) why not max (which is to say,you, or aimee, or someone else listed between mos and Kor on my list?
2) do you in any way disagree with my list? The list itself is an analysis of how townily people acted yesterday according to the criteria I judge by - criteria which I think I made very clear. Does anyone's postion in my list seemoddlyhigh or low to you?
It seems like it'd be very easy for someone new to a game to accuse one person of obvscum because of some level of wifom (X defended scum, Y fence-sat on the scumwagon, Z distanced from scum), then take that person's list and apply a new level of it to justify targets that you've chosen (for example if you'd wanted mith out, saying "mith obvscum because Adele has made the same mistake again, not being subtle; she's defending him 100% in the hope that once we know she's scum we'll assume he's not because scum would never be that blatant"). Actually, given some of max's behaviour, it's slightly worrying.
Do you have any points or arguments besides this, or are you going to judge the game entirely upon me from here on in?
Also (btw), you didn't answer my earlier question: are you being serious, or goofing around? Because I don't know if you want a serious answer or not, and so I'm assuming you do.- Adele
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Goofball, there's something about your argument that's been tweaking at the back of my head. You're "certain" that I'm scum because "quag and I distanced" ie. because he attacked me for no reason and I attacked him. Except, I think that my behaviour was therightbehaviour, and I don't think you've argued that it wasn't.
It's kinda like you've insulted me without criticising me. "You Suck" is all very well and good, but you've not pointed to anythingwrong. If you disagree with anything I've said or done, say so, but don't just say that X behaviour was distancing-like, when it was so justified.
As to your claim that I didn't want Quagmire lynched: I gotta say, I don't know if the lynch would've happened if I'd not been here.Especiallywhen we had Bapa Bail in. I worried at points that I was fighting a losing battle, but I continued to fight it. I don't want to get arrogant or anything here - there were others without whom quag'd still be walking around - but I was a pivotal part of his death, and you say I didn't want it???
If I'd not wanted him dead, I'd've given him 48 hours instead of 24 (BOCWATT)
which brings me to:
yeah, I was kinda expecting that.mith wrote:I do actually find Adele slightly suspect - mostly because I've noticed several buddying-up type comments directed my way
OK. I'm embarrased to admit it, but I do have a weisd (small) fangirl thing towards you ("The Mith; The Legend"), and then right when I'm worried Quag's slipping by you came into the game like a bloody Knight and flipped totally from BB's behaviour to getting him dead.
And now I'm all Sandra Bullock-y. It's very annoying, I half expect to spill coffee over you or something.
I'll try to dial it back. If you could say something I strongly disagree with, that'd help .
(by the way, if this is ever mentioned after the game ends lives will be lost )
Annnnd
back to DGB.
If I'd behavedexactlyas I did yesterday and Quagmire had come up pro-town, would you now be saying that I done murdered a townie so I'm surely scum? I'm rather inclined to think you would.
Itispossible for a townie to be aggressive. It's even possible for a townie to be rightfully aggressive towards someone who's developed an irrational wagonfever on them.- Adele
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...DrippingGoofball wrote:Well hullow again, Miss Bullock! How come the sight of my avatar doesn't make you buckle at the knees and stutter? It should, because I was exactly like you when I was a young pup, meaning that there is a fair chance that you will grow into a goofball.
I'm trying, here, to show you a basic level of respect, keep my ire under control, and play straight.
You are deliberately saying things that I think you know I'll take offense at, for the fun of it. You call me immature and suggest I'll turn into you, when youknowI don't appreciate your approach or your outlook.
No matter how amusing you find me, I'm going to have to ask - and I'm being serious here - that you show me more courtesy. I don't stand to be spoken to like that by anyone.
_____________________________
1. Quag apparently decided to attack me before the game started, so his behaviour on that note is separate from his status as evildoerDGB wrote:You reacted exactly as predicted as scum unexpectedly being bus'ed by her buddy on Day 1. With fire and outrage. As town, you would have dismissed it as Quaglunacy, and paid him far less attention.
2. Quag's pettiness towards me was only a very small part of why I pushed for his lynch. The main factor for me was that he expected to be treated as de facto townie regardless of antitown play for the whole of D1 (which if we'd not got scum so soon could've lasted throughseveraltown stumpings and lasted a more like a third to a half of the game).
3. Fire? I don't think I was particularly firey or outraged. Annoyed, irritated, frustrated at his stubborn lack of logic, yes. Firey and outraged, no.
Are you saying that if Quagmire had turned up town yesterday, you'd think me a townie, (therefore, that my play makes sense in a townie), or that givenDGB wrote:
No! That would make no sense whatsoever. Only I am reckless enough to sink my fangs into a single player and not let go with nothing more than gut feeling, that's why I am a terrible player. What scum wants to drive a townie wagon, shovel the coal, and look out the caboose all at once? No... they only do that with each other to earn themselves townie points.Adele wrote:If I'd behaved exactly as I did yesterday and Quagmire had come up pro-town, would you now be saying that I done murdered a townie so I'm surely scum?.mybehaviour yesterday it's implausible thatQuagmire?could'vebeen town- Adele
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I thought this particularly notable.DrippingGoofball wrote:
Well, here comes the cheating again. I don't really know if he did. And I would need out-of-game information to be sure. With dates etc. Not fair to the game, and not relevant to alignment, because you might be scumbuddies just the same.Adele wrote:1. Quag apparently decided to attack me before the game started, so his behaviour on that note is separate from his status as evildoerMightbe? More to the point, not relevant to alignment?Hisbehaviour,hischeating, not relevant tohisalignment - yet you deducemyalignment off the back of said behaviour.
In any case, you might not like what he did, DGB (I don't either), but the town at large seems to consider it "canon". Your argument is built on sand.
Hmm. So, if this behaviour can manifest between two townies, why can't it manifest between a townie (behaving like one of the two townies in your scenario) and a scum (responding in kind) - for example, me, the innocent, and Quag, either:DGB wrote:Most likely two scum distancing; next most likely two townies and the scum is laughing. A townie and a scum? Least likely scenario.
a. doing as he'd seen townies do, yelling in circles (for the record, that's not how I see my D1 interaction with q, but my perception of your perception)
b. finding himself, as townies do, unable to extricate himself
c. being a stubborn scum
or
d. Actually telling the truth about not having read his role PM (I don't know how likely that is, but it's possible)
now, a question:
Do you think, given what was known at the time, that my level of aggression D1 was inappropriate?- Adele
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Oh. I thought you meant DGB too. Lemme doublecheck that post...Mastermind of Sin wrote:
Actually, I was referring to Adele's post...DrippingGoofball wrote:
No fallacy at all. As I explained. Most likely two scum distancing; next most likely two townies and the scum is laughing. A townie and a scum? Least likely scenario.Mastermind of Sin wrote:I smell a fallacy...
No fallacy.
okay. I can see one thing you might be referring to:
You might think this is a false dichotomy. I disagree. Not all dichotomies are false, and I think this is a true dichotomy. If I'm in error, then please correct me.Adele wrote:Are you saying that if Quagmire had turned up town yesterday, you'd think me a townie, (therefore, that my play makes sense in a townie), or that given my behaviour yesterday it's implausible that Quagmire could've been town?
If, on the other hand, you're referring to something else, enlighten me. On Monday [/quote]- Adele
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You see, I wanted to give him a chance to answer my question before condemning him. Maybe there was somethingDrippingGoofball wrote:
Is MoS scummy or what???Adele wrote:
You might think this is a false dichotomy. I disagree. Not all dichotomies are false, and I think this is a true dichotomy. If I'm in error, then please correct me.Adele wrote:Are you saying that if Quagmire had turned up town yesterday, you'd think me a townie, (therefore, that my play makes sense in a townie), or that given my behaviour yesterday it's implausible that Quagmire could've been town?
That's not a false dichotomy, it's a legitimate question.elsein that post he thought was a fallacy, or maybe he was just mistaken (turns out he wasn't, but the point is, you jumped on himfirstopportunity you got).
I find it difficult to believe that d3sisted thought there wasd3sisted wrote:In fact, scotmany I'll make you a deal: if you stump right now, and turn up town, I will immediately stump myself.anychance of scotmany taking him up on that (why would he?). D3sisted, did you think scotmany would do as you asked or was there an ulterior motive to your offer?
I'm not happy with DGB at all right now. I'd withheld judgement on max to a large extent because I didn't feel I'd seen enough of him. The DGB comes in and plays more to an agenda than the needs of the game, refusing to consider any factors to explain the phenomena that she has identified other than the explanation she decided on 10 minutes into playing the game. Right now she looks like shewantsme to be scum - or wants others to think I am.
if I'm to vote anyone at this juncture, I'll:
vote: DrippingGoofball- I'm really not at all happy with her contribution so far.
And no, Goof, this isn't an omgus.
on that note, where's silver? I'd hoped she'd stick around. An objective take on all this'd be helpful at this point.- Adele
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I 100% agree. I mean, that'sSilverPhoenix wrote:
Hmm....I have a hard time agreeing with that. Yes, scummieness is not completely dependent on playstyle, but we do judge people based on their actions, and henceforth their playstyle. I don't think anyone can honestly say that they play the same way for all roles.Aimee wrote:I'm not quite sure how you can argue that a playstyle is scummy.whyquag claimed as he did. And Seol's always telling me, no matter how I try, I'll always have tells. It's just how it is.- Adele
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But entirely distinct in... texture. Quagmire said that he wouldn't stumpd3sisted wrote:It doesn't, but refusing to stump is reminiscent of Quagmire.even if we'd lynch him otherwise
Scotmany said that he would stump, which is the right pro-town play - as I wish you'd note. We lost Silver because he prematurely and unnecessarily stumped. If you and scotmany had done the same out of frustration with each other rather than sensible reasoning, and had happened to both be town, we'd now be in a much tougher place.onlyif we'd lynch him otherwise
Once more:people should refuse to stump until it is clear and acknowledged that they will be lynched if they do not.
didn't Korlash hammer quag?scotmany wrote:Secondly, I just realized this. Korlash was also against the lynch, and yet desisted forgets to mention him at all and just focused on me and jdodge.
I just checked; yes, he did. While Korlash was back-and-forth a lot (I think I characterised him earlier as flip-flopping), and could be considered scummy for that, he was distinct from you, (scot), and Jdodge, who seemed decidedlyagainstthe lynch. You may disagree with d3sisted's analysis, but it looks internally consistent to me.
And his foolishness in risking his own neck to try to get your on the chopping block is not scummy, just really really dumb. I've not done the stats on this, but unless he's town andreallysure you're scum, the "deal" he proposed would've damaged his side whichever it was. In fact, it's dumber play for scum than suspicious town.
DGB, another question, but just a general wonderingness . Max opted out of the game; he didn't get replaced because of hardcore lurking. Did he communicate with you (via the mod, for example) at all?
Before he left, he said he believed me to be town, but he left before saying why.- Adele
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VC:
DrippingGoofball (3): (Aimee, Adele, MastermindOfSin)
d3sisted (2): (JDodge, scotmany12)
scotmany12 (2): (d3sisted, Korlash)
Adele (1): (DrippingGoofball)
JDodge (1): (mith)
Korlash (0):
Aimee (0):
Mith (0):
Mastermind of Sin (0):
Not voting (0):
9 players living -> 5 to lynch;DGB is at L-2, ie thestump danger zone. No-one else vote for DGB.
MoS: why didn't you say when you voted for DGB that it was L-2? Combined with this...
...it worries me that the oversight may have been deliberate.MoS wrote:Does this L-2 stumping plan account for a reduction in the numbers of the town? For example, when it is 5 or 4 to lynch, do we still want to stump at L-2, or should that be bumped to L-1? We want to have a cushion before someone is lynched, but we also want to make it harder for scum to just push everyone into stumping due to the low numbers needed.
Also MoS: yes, mith said he suspected me because I was behaving like X, and I wanted to explain why I was behaving like X to dispel his concerns. Defending one's behaviour when someone else's suspicions are raised by that behaviour is not susicious, it's normal mafia play. Unless, of course, you think I was lying - but I hardly think I'm the only person on the forum to think of mith as a VIP or find him charismatic.
<3 Aimee right now.
JDodge, you're still voting d3sisted, still haven't said why (though youhavejumped on him for things he's done since then, that's not an explanation). I'm waiting for you to correct this error. I expect it by, say, next Tuesday, otherwise I'll begin considering voting / stump-pressuring you. (I'd actually forgotten about it until mith placed his vote )- Adele
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Goof, I gotta take issue with your approach here. First you announced I was scum, and said that, given that I was scum, XYZ was also true.
Now you've decided that Aimee's scum and said that, given that Aimee's scum, XYZ is also true (including that I'm now not scum).
If you think that Aimee's scum, ok, then pursue that. Maybe she'll end up dead and you'll find out that she's scum, and you canthengeneralise from that. On the other hand, you could be wrong and she could be townie, in which case you'll have to start from scratch (plus you'll be, like,sooooembarrased ).
Don't get me wrong, suspect people, for reasons, and investigate your suspicions. Just don't start base it entirely on the premise that you're right about a given thing that you'rereally sureabout. For example, you think Aimee followed me and MoS on voting you? She voted first.
Also, I don't get the parallel players 2 thing. Is this based on your knowledge that you're innocent? If so, then you know it'll only convince you - I can't use it and have to still suspect them. Besides, scumhavebeen known to conspicuouslynotvote a townie.
There's a lot about your thinking I don't get. Could you spell it out more?
btw, this is not an exhaustive list of my issues with it, but, you know, only so much time...- Adele
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Stabilising lurking as an effective scum strategy. This is an actualscotmany12 wrote:What's there to say about Aimee. She has been lurking, and I dislike lynching lurkers.thingnow; it's the responsibility of "The Town" (tm) to force people to do stuff, and "The Town" (tm) only really has one weapon - votes --> lynch.
Ergo, DGB is in the right. Of course, 2 votes is enough to be getting on with... but I'll need to see real contributions nowish or I'll consider unvoting DGB (boo!) to press harder.- Adele
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When would be better? When we're in Lylo? Policy lynches better sooner than later, and if wescotmany12 wrote:And I dislike lynching lurkers, at least at this point in the game. Sure she can be scum, but nothing has convinced me of that yet.canpressure her to play well, don't we want that to be asap?
Point is, if you don't say anything at all, no-one can ever convince anyone that you're scum. Which is why it's a good scum tactic. Which is why it is scummy.- Adele
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you guys post too darn much .
DGB, you're really on a knife-edge here. If Jdodge asked you to stump, would you? If so, then there's really no reason for you to ever get to -1. At the moment, you're coming off a little... megalomaniac. "I'll stump myself and none of you can stop me ahahahahahahahaha", you know? You're probably just jumpy, afraid of there being another night on account of you - if town,so I don't trust it - townies threatening to kill themselves always tweaks me, personally. Less so in this case for obvious reasons, but I'm not prepared to unvote you at this time.BOCWATT- Adele
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Silverphoenix didn't threaten to do it - she just did it. d3sisted and scot are different too - they aren'tDrippingGoofball wrote:
What about SilverPhoenix? Didn't SilverPhoenix do it already? Was SilverPhoenix scum?Adele wrote:...townies threatening to kill themselves always tweaks me, personally. Less so in this case for obvious reasons, but I'm not prepared to unvote you at this time.
What about d3sisted and scotmany12 with one of them threatening to kill themselves if the other one refuses to stump and/or is scum or whatever? How come you do not subject them to the same scrutiny you lay on me? How come you haven't even considered voting for them? If you want to apply standards such as these, a cautious and articulate player such as yourself is expected to apply them uniformly and fairly.threateningto stump, butofferingto. It's a dumb move anyway which is causing them problems - but I'm not treating that offer to be evidence that they're town, any more than I consider your "threat" (it wasn't even exactly that) to be evidence thatyou'retown.- Adele
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Don't think much at all of K's reply to mith.
and if her reply's inadequate, then what? You've put yourself, if notKorlash wrote:As for me switching to Aimee I'm not even really serious here. I just want to see what she says. I would still be inclined to go after Scot once this DGB thing the other half of the game is on is over with.on, then...nearthe fence.
Yeah, that's the thing about scummy actions. You can pretend to be contrite and say you can't undo them, but the result you wanted is still nice and... resultant (okay, I'm very not articulate today).Korlash wrote:Hammer from yesterday even I admit is suspicious. But there is really nothing I can say about it.
Sarcasm doesn't change anything either. You said you were certain (or near-certain) that 2 people were scum, then said that other people might be too. It's a contradiction.Korlash wrote:My percentages again? Do you really think probabilities is the only thing I suck at? XD
Weak.Korlash wrote:Buddying up to DGB? That's about what it is I think. More for fun then anything I suppose.
..."how dare mith share his opinions with the town if they're not completely objective?", or "I can't change the past so this should be ignored" again?Korlash wrote:Similarities to a newbie game... Yeah... That is really helpful...
eh, I think she was probably just feeling kinda paranoid and got het up about it. Couple years ago (exactly, actually, because it was thanksgiving's fault) I got in a back-and-forth with someone who ended up being cop. There was only the two of us around, so we got deeper and deeper into it without any outside influences telling us to lighten up or anything.mith wrote:DGB: There is a rather large difference in "being lynched while you're away" and "being asked to stump while you're away". That's all I'm saying - you made an awfully big fuss about the possibility of being "voted" while you weren't around, and I'm not understanding why.
She was barking up a tree that turned out to be a lamppost.
MoS, is this true? DGB, are you claiming his arguments should be ignored because of this?DGB wrote:It might be worth mentioning that MoS has made it his mission to "policy lynch" me in every game. Therefore, his vote is just an automatic one-vote handicap for me.
Korlash,
For that, I want you dead.Korlash wrote:Yeah I think Mr. Flay was hinted at that when talking to me a while ago. Something about how my "playstyle" means the town will have to automatically lynch me or something... Ehh whatever... *snap snap* I do what I want!
But it's cool, I'll go to Alaska, hunt you down after game finishes.
I'm still your nemesis though, right?DGB wrote:I refuse to engage in any sort of out-of-game feuding with MoS or anyone, and will not respond with tit-for-tat.- Adele
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ooh, not too many posts but dang they're long...
mods don't replace players because other players think they're being unspecific, but only because they're disappeared. A fluff/lurk combo, I suspect, would keep you satisfied - not quite dissatisfied enough, rather - to let someone flake to endgame, and youKorlash wrote:
Um... If her reply is inadequate I hope she gets replacedAdele wrote:and if her reply's inadequate, then what? You've put yourself, if not on, then... near the fence.cannotlet people do that. It's just plain bad play.
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Korlash wrote:
I said other people might be scum? Where? When? that doesn't sound like me...Adele wrote:Sarcasm doesn't change anything either. You said you were certain (or near-certain) that 2 people were scum, then said that other people might be too. It's a contradiction.
(emphasis added)Korlash wrote:1) Scotmany- 100% sure is scum.
2) JDodge- 99% sure is scum
3) MoS& Adele- only scum if JD and Scot both turn out town, very unlikely
4) Desisted- Also very unlikely but I cannot overlook the new stuff that has been said.
5) Mith- Mostly because Blapa was a bit... suspicious...
TherestImore or lessthink are townish...y
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1. this'd be easier to follow if you'd include the whole back-and-forthKorlash wrote:Adele wrote:..."how dare mith share his opinions with the town if they're not completely objective?", or "I can't change the past so this should be ignored" again?
See! We totally agree Mith should drop it! I don't get why you are so worked up over this... [/sarcasm]
2. sarcasm is not sufficient as a rebuttal. I asked a question and, oh look, you didn't actually answer it.
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We're not obligated to do hours of research on you. mith wasn't saying everyone should think you're scum because of that, but that it's aKorlash wrote:look, I have been in 3 newbie games. all of them completed. From what I have seen Mith is only using one of them, and I think MoS is too. I mean yeah, Mith should think I am scum simply cause the only game he seems to be using I was scum in too! And MoS should think the same for town. Now... If they were to look at the other game, they may then get mixed feelings. AND my third game I was scum in too. So look at that one. However it isn't as helpful as it was my FIRST game on this site. I admit I played it a little weird.factorinhisopinion. That's his right - and the full-disclosure thing works in his favour.
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Only two what? If you're not even going to try to post good arguments or reasoned rebuttals, full sentences would be helpful.Korlash wrote:
So in other words demonstrated by my only two.. got it. Nice way of trying to make it sound worse then it is.Aimee wrote:Korlash - I find him suspicious because of his non-committal votes, particularly - demonstrated by his rash hammer on Quag for no real reason, and his questionable "pressure" vote on me.
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well...Korlash wrote:Um... for the record.. I did hammer him... how much more committal do I need to be? seriously...korlash wrote:I am not convinced he is mafia, but I am convinced leaving him alive will not help us find the real scum. So I am willing to sacrifice two townies so that we can all stop being retarded and actually play tomorrow...Korlash wrote:Plain and simple, we got F***ing lucky... I won't deny that. I am still firmly against what just happened, so all of you stop being F***ing retards and play this God Damn game right.
I'm not going to defend my hammer because it was a plain dumb move.Korlash wrote:I just think lynch someone on the basis of them not looking a their role is kinda dumb.
...you're 100% committed to your noncommitment. Is that what you meant?Korlash wrote:The only thing I would classify as "Flip-Flopping" was my actual vote on Quag. Other then that I feel I have done no "flip-flopping" at all.
With his every post, Korlash seems more scummy to me. Is he just completely not getting what he's supposed to be doing here?
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again, quotes ftw. But also, if he did attack you, would you defend yourself or just blow it off with more sarcasm?Korlash wrote:Is that so?... Then attack me for it so we can get back into this.
Also No, I don't remember.. Enlighten me...
...I really can't think of anyone you can blame for that but yourselfmith wrote:Where is that hand-smacking-forehead smilie when I need it?- Adele
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This is gonna take more than one post, so more later. Just FYI.
Korlash - okay, I hope you'll excuse me dedicating a large portion of my post to you - again - but it seems to me that we have a lot to discuss.
First off, a style issue. For example, here:
someone looking through your posts only hasKorlash wrote:
You emphasized the part about players I thought were town in response to a quote asking where I found players scum... That definitely makes sense...Adele wrote:(emphasis added)
More to the point the one you quoted was in no way a contradiction as Aimee said. It was merely a small "scum-dar" or suspicions list.no ideawhat that's about, and would have to conduct a much fuller search just to know what's going on. I'd really be grateful, especially if you're quoting me, if you'd post the full quote (including the portions where I've quoted you - like in emails, where it goes back-and-forth with the whole convo sitting under the new message). It makes things so much easier later in arguments, for other players, and later in the game.
Second, to answer your point there:Adele wrote:Korlash wrote:Adele wrote:Sarcasm doesn't change anything either. You said you were certain (or near-certain) that 2 people were scum, then said that other people might be too. It's a contradiction.
I said other people might be scum? Where? When? that doesn't sound like me...Korlash wrote:1) Scotmany- 100% sure is scum.
2) JDodge- 99% sure is scum
3) MoS& Adele- only scum if JD and Scot both turn out town, very unlikely
4) Desisted- Also very unlikely but I cannot overlook the new stuff that has been said.
5) Mith- Mostly because Blapa was a bit... suspicious...
TherestImore or lessthink are townish...y
(emphasis added)
You indicated only a mild lack of suspicion for those remaining players. Even if you say that you find them townish, you've still opted to distinguish MoS, Desisted, mith and I from the group you find townie, thus you're saying you find us, to some extent, scummy. So don't say now "I said other people might be scum? Where? When? that doesn't sound like me... " when you clearly are saying above that other players might be scum.Korlash wrote:You emphasized the part about players I thought were town in response to a quote asking where I found players scum... That definitely makes sense...
Out of time for now. More straight after work.- Adele
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What do you mean? Also, besides me, jdodge and scot, you seem to find everyone averageish (except mith, who you find townish). Is that right?d3sisted wrote:Adele: Probably the highest on my list after scot and JDodge. She's been going after DGB for the good part of the day, but I couldn't feel any commitment in her original vote.
Korlash: I could probably write 2000 words on you right now - which frankly doesn't appeal. I'm going to try to condense it down, for example by not using quote tags. If it's not gonna be possible to follow the argument through from start to finish anyway, what's the point?
1. "I'd be careful how you word things towards me. I am one of those players you never can tell what he will do next. Keep saying I have no idea what to do and I might just do something stupid."
-Why even make a threat like that, except to look scummier? Are you seriously saying I should handle you with kid gloves lest you self-destruct? Exercise some control, rather than expecting us all to do it for you.
2. "I know what I am suppose to be doing, I am scumhuinting in my own little way. Just because I won't get on the DGB wagon like you and your patsies doesn't mean you can start throwing insults like this around. "
-Scumhunting is not all you are supposed to be doing. When people become suspicious of you you are supposed to make account for it.
3. "Well i would be more convinced if you had left the third quote out as it had nothing to do with my vote. I have already said it 50 times that that is not why I hammered him. "
-a. It's not just you I'm trying to convince
-b. So the third quote was included in error. What about the others?
4. "Also I find it odd you would open saying: "ooh, not too many posts but dang they're long... " Implying there are only a few posts, yet you only seem to focus on me... Between now and the last time you posted I posted 6 times, Aimee posted once, DGB posted 4 times, mith twice, MoS 3, and Scot twice. So why only me?"
-Limit on sense of time/dedication/RSI. I had the most to say about you and when I was done, I was all talked out. Here's the thing: if person "A" warrants a full-on essay, then I'm less likely to then do the usual agree/disagree/analysis on the others. It's not a perfect system, but I have limited resources.
5. Your scumlist would be more helpful if you'd either (a) not allocated percentages or (b) made sure the percentages added up to 200% or at least (c) used the same scale for rating everyone - are you deliberately obfuscating how comparatively scummy you find jdodge?
6. DGB said "Korlash is too stump happy to be scum". I think the opposite. When you say things like "I already said i won't wait to be asked. The second I hit L-2 I'm stumping. Earlier if I can. So I am merely two votes away from being dead", that looks to me like you're threatening the town to discourage them from voting you - like Quagmire did.
7. "Exactly... It's what is commonly referred to as a "scumdar" here. I myself like to refer to it as a more aptly named "suspiciondar" myself. your attacking me for having more then two people on it? Please... Thats just sad... "
-OK, here's what I think just happened (paraphrased):
Korlash: Aimee said I said other people [besides my top 2 scum choices] might be scum. When did I ever say such a thing?
Adele: (quotes Korlash) "other people besides them might be scum"
Korlash: Well, duh, of course other people might be scum, that's obvious.
-Would you care to correct me, Korlash? Do you see the relevance of my quotation now?
8. "I have like 3 reasons not to vote me. 1) As Adele pointed out I don;t really answer anything. And so voting me won't exactly help. It will however lead to 2) higher chance of a stump. Me stumping is not a bad thing but it is likely to happen whether I, you, or anyone else does or does not want it too. Unless you would rather #) ME being lynched. Quick lynched from the scum? Didn't happen to DGB why would it happen to me right? Unless I did something stupid like not stump and let you lynch me thus giving the scum another NK they would not have had... Interesting... "
-See 6. Scaremongering.
9. back to "I already said i won't wait to be asked. The second I hit L-2 I'm stumping.Earlier if I can."
-Earlier if youcan? That doesn't even make sense; you can stump whenever the hell you want to - see silver. But that's not a scumtell, just a WTFtell.
That's mostly it.
I do wanna clear this up though:
I'mKorlash wrote:
I'd be careful how you word things towards me. I am one of those players you never can tell what he will do next. Keep saying I have no idea what to do and I might just do something stupid.Adele wrote:With his every post, Korlash seems more scummy to me. Is he just completely not getting what he's supposed to be doing here?
I know what I am suppose to be doing, I am scumhuinting in my own little way. Just because I won't get on the DGB wagon like you and your patsies doesn't mean you can start throwing insults like this around.notplaying silly buggers with you here. I'mnottrying to get a rise out of you. I'mnottrying to make this game no fun.
I'm genuinely frustrated; what I'm seeing is valid points raised against you, but rather than justify your behaviour, explain or argue, you simply dismiss them with a sarcastic handwave, and that's just not good enough for me. The more you do it, the scummier you seem to me.
If you're pro-town thenI need to see it, Korlash. If you continue acting like this, then the only sane conclusion I'll be able to come to is that you're scum. If you don't change, then whether it's because you don't want to, you're scared to, you don't think you should have to, oreven don't know how to, I'll have to assume the worst - that you're a lumberjack.
So yeah, that question was a genuine one. Because if youdon'tknow how to, then I'll be wanting to give you some hints, fast. You're new and I have some sympathy for that, but I've got a game to play here too, so it's a trade-off, y'know? I can't be going so far as to give a free pass but I've often thought it's only nice to continue IC'ing during someone's first few games. Put it this way: if, say, Stoof acted like you've been, my vote would be on him a while back because I know he knows better. ( I'm trying to think of a lessappallinglypatronising way to say all this, for the record, but fact is when you're new you don't know as much, and there's just no two ways about it).
The threat, if meant personally, annoys me, more than anything; really, what are you going to do? You're not the vig or the SK, if you're scum there's a 50% chance you'll be dead by N2, and even if youdonk me, I'll still probably win. I've kinda broken this game, so I'm not too scared
OK. Again, the vast bulk is based on Korlash, but he's been the primary topic of recent conversation. At the moment, I'm suspicious enough of him to vote for him, and I'm not going to hold back just because he's threatening to misplay, so:
unvote, vote: Korlash
don't worry, DGB, I'm sure I'll be back on you soon - although your recent posts on Korlash, while I disagree strongly with them, have a whiff of sanity to them (no offence).
Edit By Way Of Adding Something Before Posting: 1250 words on Korlash, but much of it was cut'n'paste.- Adele
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okay, is it just me who finds stuff like that unutterably frustrating? What am I supposed to do, ignore everything that the "crazy players" say? Give them a free pass? I can treat sarcasm as sarcasm, but when it'sDGB wrote:What about Adele? First, she pushes hard on me (sweeeet), but then... she pushes hard on you... taking everything you say SERIOUSLY. How can anyone in their right mind take what you say seriously?allyou give me, Ihaveto assume the worst, else it becomes dominant strategy. Korlash showed a few strange parallels with Quagmire - I mentioned at least one earlier - and I voted them for very similar reasons.
Korlash wrote:Do any of you think i would have acted like that if I were scum? After what Quag did? Are you serious? idiots...Korlash wrote:Well is it still invalid? God... i told you all I play the same no matter affiliation...Slightcontradiction there (plus hypocrisy after you told us not to insult you), Korlash. "I'd act like this irrespective of my WC, but if I were scum I wouldn't act like this". Plus you got wifom...
...ok, you know what? I don't think I misplayed, I think you did. We can discuss it in postgame, but right now, whatever.
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Fair point. JDodge, anything to say for yourself? Did you see the Korlash argument? If so, what were your thoughts and why did you not contribute them?Korlash wrote:Oh... It's JD again? coming in at just the right time to redo his vote... Lurk much...!?!?!?!?
Seriously, to be honest I think this proves he is watching but not commenting at all. you would think he would have had SOMETHING to say against/about/for/whatever me in the last 2 pages... But no.... nothing...
vote: Dripping Goofball(well, Ididpromise )
FOS: JDodge, Scotmany
I'm going to have to go over DGB with a fine-tooth comb. JDodge, Scot and Aimee all deserve some quality attention right now , but I had issues with her for a reason and I don't want her to slide by while I go Lurker-Hunting.- Adele
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1. Difference between "thought" and "knew"DrippingGoofball wrote:
If it's obvious to you, and obvious to me... what to you think of the players that did not, or pretended not to, see what we so clearly saw?SilverPhoenix wrote:Hmmmm.....I thought he was town. *shrug I guess I can't say much.
2. Youclaimyou saw something. I'm still convinced it was a mirage, and you overtrusted Korlash because his playstyle matched yours (something I used to do with Seol, back in the day).
3. He agrees he was self-contradictory.
Goof, you didn't like the stump. You've made that clear. Why are you mad at the players who voted him, not even into the danger zone, and not at HIM, for unnecessarily suiciding? He misplayed, and he didn't even apparently mean to stump (which makes him a liar to boot, and you know my stance on that - and I know yours and that discussion will go nowhere).- Adele
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I think mith's saying that in the case where MoSisscum, he's trying to link himself to me, wheras ifI'mscum, this connection is coincidental. After all, he doesn't say it'slikelythat MoS is trying to buddy up to me.
Did I misunderstand that? It sounded as though you wanted me to explain mith's argument, but that seems odd...- Adele
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You stumped when you didn't have to, man.Korlash wrote:
You keep calling it a misplay... I don't see it as such... I think you are trying to alleviate all the pressure from my stump off yourself and onto.. ME!Adele wrote:Goof, you didn't like the stump. You've made that clear. Why are you mad at the players who voted him, not even into the danger zone, and not at HIM, for unnecessarily suiciding? He misplayed, and he didn't even apparently mean to stumpFoS: Adele
Sorry so little - short on time gotta run- Adele
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STOP IT!!!
Ya'll havegottastop seeing stumping as a "screw you", or a defensive technique prior to it really being needed, or a bloodyinteresting diversion! Folk stumping when they don't have to willloseus this game.
Please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please pleasepleaseno-one else stumpunless they have to.
DGB, anything you get to say after stumping's a pyrrhic victory. Okay?
please just getoverit.- Adele
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I'm not sure I agree with you, mith. For starters, we can't be sure that the treestumps'll be sufficiently active (I know I'll post less), and it also occurs that if we're thinking in those terms then there's a danger someone will get to four real votes before we stop and think about them stumping, and the scum'll have a chance to quicklynch and only implicate one of them - which is a 3-for-1 deal, so that'd be really bad.
I think them keeping us up to date on their feelings is enough. Of course they can "pseudovote" if they really want to but I see that more of a FOS. Your idea just seems too complicated.- Adele
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I disagree with DGB here. It's the classic divestment of responsibility. According to mith's stats, a random pick favours the scum, so they probably want a random-ish outcome that'll probably be dead townies without any possible accusation being leveled against them, and wagons against them "wrong by definition".d3sisted wrote:I think I have to agree with JDodge about DGB blindly following the stumps.
Furthermore, I found your selfappraisal in Post 724 rather scummy:DGB wrote:My agenda is very clearly a pro-town agenda. A being spokestump for the stumps is as townie as it gets.FOS DGB
To me what DGB's doing is similar to what I felt Quag and Kor were doing. However, while Quag was scum, Kor wasn't, and DGB's probably more similar in nature to Kor than Quag. So instead of pushing herforthis, I'm gonna yell at her to darn well change and then get back to the question of "is she scummy?"
Unvote
DGB STOPPIT!
(see how I follow through on my plan? That's the towniest thing ever so you know I'm a GG )- Adele
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1. Are people getting suspicious of me? It seems to be about the same as always to me - little ups and downs, some folk trust me more, some less - nothing to make me panicMastermind of Sin wrote:
This seems to me like an attempt to back down from your DGB attacks and get on her good side right as people get a little more suspicious of you. The timing doesn't feel right, and you know damn well that DGB would never do something asAdele wrote:To me what DGB's doing is similar to what I felt Quag and Kor were doing. However, while Quag was scum, Kor wasn't, and DGB's probably more similar in nature to Kor than Quag. So instead of pushing herforthis, I'm gonna yell at her to darn well change and then get back to the question of "is she scummy?"stupidas changing her playstyle to benefit the town, so it's an exercise in futility. This doesn't feel sincere at all coming from you.FoS: Adele
So the question is, why does Adele-scum no longer like the DGB wagon? Why is she trying to back down from it? After a divestment from the wagon, where would she go, who would she take the opportunity to pressure instead? Interesting...
2. My point's exactly the same as yours from earlier - that it's a tough read because acting like a crazy person is not necessarily scummy for DGB. It pisses me off some, but I don't want the game to go down the toilet because I'm off having a paddy.
3. Why is changing playstyle to benefit town stupid, if she's town? I'm trying to give her the opportunity to demonstrate her townieness to me - I'm most certainly not giving her a free card.
To conclude: Wuh? Your argument makes no sense to me.- Adele
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I've checked back, and I really only think one person expressed a higher level of suspicion of me shortly prior to my unvote - you. So if that was making me nervous, why would I jump off someone you want dead?Mastermind of Sin wrote:
This seems to me like an attempt to back down from your DGB attacks and get on her good side right as people get a little more suspicious of you.Adele wrote:To me what DGB's doing is similar to what I felt Quag and Kor were doing. However, while Quag was scum, Kor wasn't, and DGB's probably more similar in nature to Kor than Quag. So instead of pushing herforthis, I'm gonna yell at her to darn well change and then get back to the question of "is she scummy?"
Jdodge hasn't posted since Thursday, nor scotmany since Wednesday. Since the 23rd, Aimee's only posted a placeholder (she didn't post over the weekend like she said she'd try to in that post).
Mod, can we get another prod on Aimee, please?- Adele
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Adele Big Sister
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- Big Sister
- Big Sister
- Posts: 2223
- Joined: October 13, 2005
- Location: Not in any Large games, that's for darn sure!
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Heh, that's ironic - like you said earlier, I don't get the whole "theatre" thing, so that wouldn't convince me (but don't worry; I'm already convinced )DrippingGoofball wrote:BTW - This is the post that convinced me that Adele is very likely town:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 142#851142
Appeals to emotions sometimes work with me; she sounded very sincere. Like I said earlier, mafia is theater; and on this stage, she acted townie with poignant conviction.- Adele
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Adele Big Sister
- Adele
- Big Sister
- Big Sister
- Posts: 2223
- Joined: October 13, 2005
- Location: Not in any Large games, that's for darn sure!
- Contact:
I didn't know the matter had been settled. DGB defended me, but I don't think that means I don't have to explain myself too - since I'm the best person to comment on my motives.MoS wrote:You *do* realize that DGB already discussed this point before you made either of these posts and that between us we've already covered nearly everything you said, right?
I didn't get this:MoS wrote:What is #3 talking about? I have no clue what you're referring to
Some of JD's posts are pretty scummy; I've never been fond of his play, but his most recent post reads as a pre-emptive defence of excuses for putting off stumping as long as possible, and I don't like the question aimed only at mith, rather than deal with the feelings of the town at large (I'm worried that he's trying either to discredit mith, who's said that he's not quite on form recently, or convince mith to change his mind and push the "town should follow mith" angle, although that last one's probably just my paranoia - the issues in play don't seem at the forefront of his mind).Mastermind of Sin wrote:you know damn well that DGB would never do something asstupidas changing her playstyle to benefit the town- Adele
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Adele Big Sister
- Adele
- Big Sister
- Big Sister
- Posts: 2223
- Joined: October 13, 2005
- Location: Not in any Large games, that's for darn sure!
- Contact:
I don't think JDodge ever actually answered that question. JDodge?Adele wrote:
Fair point. JDodge, anything to say for yourself? Did you see the Korlash argument? If so, what were your thoughts and why did you not contribute them?Korlash wrote:Oh... It's JD again? coming in at just the right time to redo his vote... Lurk much...!?!?!?!?
Seriously, to be honest I think this proves he is watching but not commenting at all. you would think he would have had SOMETHING to say against/about/for/whatever me in the last 2 pages... But no.... nothing...- Adele
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Adele Big Sister
- Adele
- Big Sister
- Big Sister
- Posts: 2223
- Joined: October 13, 2005
- Location: Not in any Large games, that's for darn sure!
- Contact:
Some of what Korlash raises is sketchy, but there's no doubt that JDodge and Scot have been very close in behaviour throughout the game. I don't like that, after all this, they'restillvoting together:
And they've made few and far-between attempts to justify it.VC excerpt wrote:JDodge (2): (DrippingGoofball, Mith)
d3sisted (2): (JDodge, scotmany12)
DrippingGoofball (1): (Mastermind of Sin)
scotmany12 (1): (d3sisted)
Thing is, though (BOCWATT) I don't think scum would so closely align with each other. I think it's more probable that one of them is scum and has successfully got the townie into a mirroring situation (socially, this is where you and someone else mirror each other. The cool thing is,youstart out subtly copying them, then when you move, they'll start copying you. If they start deviating then you copy them again for a while then switch back). Trying to figure out "who's following who" in that scenario is unhelpful.
Individually, I find them both scummy, but scotmany only slightly scummy at this time, wheras JDodge is very very scummy indeed, and didn't answer the question Korlash asked ages ago even close to satisfactarily. JDodge, did you see the burgeoning case on Korlash; did you see him being voted; did you see him considering stumping. If not, then why not say that it was just a coincidence you appeared when you did so I can run a sitesearch on you and determine the truth?
Vote: Jdodge
That's L-2, everyone; don't vote Jdodge
I'd really like a substantive self-defence from JDodge.Now. - Adele
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