Mini 517: Tree Stump Mafia: Game Over

[SilverPhoenix]

/confirm
Blargness!

[SilverPhoenix]

so it may not be possible to avoid having 2 nights

Wouldn't it be

im

possible to not have 2 nights?? I don't foresee scum using their own as their nightkill anytime soon or committing suicide since we find out that he was scum anyway.
Other than that, I suppose your strategy would work. Just hope the town doesn't choose many tree targets that end up killing themselves.

[SilverPhoenix]

Vote: d3sisted

[SilverPhoenix]

i see your point, but since i haven't looked at my role (nor do i plan to), i could just as easily be a lumberjack. so, in that case, i'd be harming my mafia partners if i did that...

and that holds just as much weight imo as if i'm a townie tree and i'm harming the town by not killing myself

and besides, killing yourself is definitely a pussy thing to do

so too bad

That is not very smart. Because we had time before the day started, the mafia was able to talk to each other. Which means that even if you didn't look at your role, you had a nice little pm sitting in your inbox from your scum buddies to talk strategy. I am pretty sure that if you were scum, you would know it. As Masterminds aptly said, "sounds like bullshit".

HoS: Quagmire

I am not going to vote simply because I don't want to push him into stumping already. If he actually is town, then it would be reckless to waste a stumping on him.

[SilverPhoenix]

So is Quag down to -3? Hmmm.....I want to vote him but he has already stated that he will not stump. I want to hold off night for as long as we see fit. So my HoS stands...

[SilverPhoenix]

I just don't want Quag to ruin the town advantage if we try and lynch him (that is if he is town). But since he doesn't know, we have even less of a clue. Is he lying? I would say he is most likely, but we obviously cannot be sure

@Korlash: Why are you voting for yourself?

[SilverPhoenix]

Vote: Quagmire

I can't take it anymore. I'd rather kill you now then have to deal with your horrible play. It's not just that you are acting scummy, you are just playing horribly. I would rather someone inactive than someone who refuses to play correctly.

[SilverPhoenix]

I am mainly annoyed by telling everyone who to vote for. You set your target as Adele since before the game even started, and then you use OMGUS for your target tomorrow. Just horrible.....

[SilverPhoenix]

Hi scum

Unvote, vote: SilverPhoenix

Not much of an analysis, I'm afraid. Your vote is irrelevant if you don't have anything to back it up with. Also, you didn't complain when Pooky did the same thing. So I am not buying your vote at all....nor should anyone else.

[SilverPhoenix]

hey

jdodge, scotmany

:

instead of bandwagoning and trying to lynch mos, do you want to go for adele instead? she's really stupid and recent events show that she would be just as worthwile a "principle lynching" as mos...

I wouldn't have pointed this out normally, but since Quagmire refused to change his tactic from the beginning, I can assume that he was seriously playing from then. So what does this mean? Well...it seems like randomness buy why? Why do they (and Bapa Bail) agree with him, and then avoid any real discussion? Is there something I'm missing? Or is this really that easy?

FoS: JDodge, Bapa Bail, Scotmany

Time to start playing seriously, guys.

[SilverPhoenix]

You assume I have nothing.

Considering you didn't post anything, yeah I assumed you had nothing. It is not like it was incorrect, you didn't post anything!

And here you assume OMGUS

I was talking about Quagmire targeting MoS for tomorrow. Which it basically was.

Here you essentially say that you just want him lynched regardless of his alignment; how is that in any way good for the town?

Because he isn't playing town. He is playing neutral, and he might as well be lynched for doing so. Can't you see that he is screwing up the town advantage in this game? Should someone who is screwing up the town be lynched? My answer is yes.

Is playing unseriously a scumtell?

Look, you guys seemed to obviously have some prior discussion before this game started about who to target, since Quagmire told you and scotmany to vote for Adele and you guys did obediently. And now you are defending someone whose alignment you don't even know? That seems like scum trying to shut up a dumb-ass scum partner to me.

[SilverPhoenix]

So, if a scum is playing town he must never be lynched?

That isn't what I said. I said that we should lynch obvious neutral because they do not help the town (or the scum, for that matter) whatsoever. As Pooky said, it is better to get rid of him now than later. I am talking about strictly neutral people, not scum playing town or vice versa. I never mentioned Quag being scum/town anywhere, because obviously no one has any clue, including yourself.

[SilverPhoenix]

Tell me how a town lynch helps the town

YOU DON'T KNOW QUAG IS TOWN! NEITHER DO I! NEITHER DOES QUAGMIRE, FOR PETE'S SAKE!!!

[SilverPhoenix]

I always like to look at the game that I'm playing in in a totally neutral sense; if I feel like I'm dissociated from the game, but just viewing it as an outsider, then I feel that I get a better perspective on the game itself than if I'm already playing on a side. I say that because, when I'm mafia, I tend to try too hard to play like a townsperson, and that bites me in the ass. If I'm a townsperson, I'm too focused on picking up on subliminal mafia tactics, so I don't get a good handle of the bigger picture. Being neutral tends to take away those disadvantages for me, for whatever reason.

Day one is always the worst. There's no information and people just jump on bandwagons for the stupidest and littlest things just to get things going -- there's nothing I hate to hear more than to vote for someone "just to get things started." To do this, I get as much information that I can. I do this in a number of ways that I won't tell you. However, my voting-for-adele policy before the game is a trap, in a sense. I won't say how.

Today I haven't been able to scumhunt so much because I've had to spend most of the time detailing why I won't stump myself or why I won't read my PM that I haven't been able to really get information about specific people.

Going back to the first few paragraphs, though. This helps me. If I find out that I'm a townie, then I've got a good basis and list of things to delve into once a new day dawns -- it's like I've set up an outline of stuff for myself and things to look at, and to give myself direction in that sense helps ground me in figuring out what I want to know. If i turn out to be mafia, I've got a good sense of how to act and what to pursue. It's very simple, really.

Thank you very much for fully explaining your reasoning for not looking at your PM. This is the kind of information would have been helpful 2 pages ago, however. The problem that I had with your beginning tactic is that it made you seem not really wanting to play the game. Since other people seem to know your meta and are siding with, I think I can assume that this is the way you approach each game, which is why I singled them out. Lesson learned....but I still disagree, but that's my opinion.

Unvote

@scotmany,JDodge: Obviously, the prior knowledge that you guys had was Quagmire's reason for his beginning neutrality. My main problem with him is that he wanted neutrality but he didn't have a real reason for it until now. But turning that on me is not the way to go. I actually think that you are being opportunistic at my mistake. I never really said I didn't find him scummy. In fact...

That seems like scum trying to shut up a dumb-ass scum partner to me.

I made a small mistake. Don't lynch me for it.

[SilverPhoenix]

dumb-ass scum partner

Count it!

[SilverPhoenix]

I made a small mistake. Don't lynch me for it.

I don't believe that his neutrality is an issue anymore. Now that he fully explained it, I understand and I can deal with it. Your points are really just moot because I don't find it an issue anymore. Please stop arguing with my past self.

[SilverPhoenix]

If I was opportunistic, I would have completely ignored Quagmire's last post and still be advocating his lynch. I am not. I just see your and jdodge's actions as trying to get me lynched for what was really a mistake.

[SilverPhoenix]

Look scotmany, I was frustrated with Quagmire's apparent inability to explain himself, just as Pooky, MoS and Adele were. His refusal to explain why being neutral is good for anyone led me to believe that he was

never

going to tell us why he went neutral. I, nor the other voting him, was not going to deal with someone who didn't have any reasoning behind his neutrality. I advocated his lynch not because of his neutrality, but because his initial refusal to explain it.

[SilverPhoenix]

And now that he has fully explained himself, I see no reason to vote for him. I am obviously not going to say he is protown, but I think he is leaning that way since he is most likely town.

[SilverPhoenix]

It clearly looked like he believed quag to not have looked at his role.

Why, do you believe he looked at his role?

[SilverPhoenix]

I did and still do. And....you're twisting my words. I said that JDodge's and your comments seem to defend Quag's position and it just seemed like scum trying to protect the unknowing scum. I can believe that his role is scum. Being neutral and being scum can be the same thing.

[SilverPhoenix]

Why do they (and Bapa Bail) agree with him, and then avoid any real discussion? Is there something I'm missing? Or is this really that easy?
FoS: JDodge, Bapa Bail, Scotmany
Time to start playing seriously, guys.

That was my case, which I have mentioned several times. I guess you didn't read it...

Because he was refusing to explain his neutrality at that point, I wasn't sure whether to believe him. So yes, the idea of scum trying to hide himself seemed appropriate at the time. However, you first criticize me for voting him solely for his neutrality, but now you are criticizing me for saying he was scummy. Which is it, scot? Or is it just a long string of dirt that you are trying to wring up on me? I cannot be sure why you want to directly attack me, but not others that were involved in the wagon WHICH YOU HAVE NEVER MENTIONED. Explain their behavior. Are they all scum? Also, as my quote above says, you nor JDodge have yet to say why you obediently agreed to his initial plan.

[SilverPhoenix]

Opportunistic is hardly the word. He was L-4 not -1 or -2. I also think that two people could have the same argument for the whole Quag-not-explaining-his-neutrality thing. And I was simply more annoyed by his lack of explanation than anything else.

Then when I bring it up against you, you say you found him scummy.

Too bad you already admitted to believing quag.

As I said, both can coincide. I didn't say he was acting scummy. I said that your actions and JDodge's were scummy because they seemed to defend him. Since he didn't know his role, if he was scum, the other scum would have wanted to try and not get him lynched before he looked at his role. That makes Quag only scum by association, not by action. Which is what I meant by my vote.
I also have a very large problem with the bolded sentence. You are now

deliberately

bending my words to your will. "Too bad"??? You act like the jury is coming through the front door with the verdict. And you want everyone to believe that too. That is what this argument (and my argument before with JDodge) is about. You wanting to control the town's outlook on me.

Vote: scotmany12

Has it ever occurred that the adele thing was pre-determined?

Look, you guys seemed to obviously have some prior discussion before this game started about who to target, since Quagmire told you and scotmany to vote for Adele and you guys did obediently. And now you are defending someone whose alignment you don't even know? That seems like scum trying to shut up a dumb-ass scum partner to me.

I have already asked why this is predetermined. I need more than "it was predetermined". BTW, scum could have a predetermined target. Just a thought.

[SilverPhoenix]

I have already asked why the adele thing is predetermined. I need more than "it was predetermined". BTW, scum could have a predetermined target. Just a thought.

Bumping this question towards Quag, JDodge and scotmany12....

[SilverPhoenix]

I never intended for it to get adele lynched. It was a joke.

Thank you for that. It seems like people can never fully explain themselves sometimes...
I don't like the direction Quag is going. Now, he seems rub in our face that he is neutral and an excuse not to lynch him. Nothing is for certain yet. Although I believe your neutrality for now, it is based on the actions that you do, and your actions right now do not really support your neutrality.

IGEMOY: Quag

[SilverPhoenix]

EDBWOP:

IGMEOY: Quag

How does this make sense?

Not sure what you mean. This is almost as ambiguous as...

Everyone, please read the bolded part very carefully. Can you see what I see?

@Aimee: I agree with your view of the Quagwagon, but I also see the same thing in the people that brought the accusations against me (especially JDodge).

@scotmany12: Wait, you criticize d3 for being on the wagon with only 5 total posts? How is that not more opportunistic than my vote?

[SilverPhoenix]

If Quag had turned up town, I would've probably passed this off as confused townie flip-flopping.

Mith, I don't understand why the fact that if Quag = scum then I automatically = scum. The town flip-flop can match either case, especially since Quag claimed neutrality.

As it is, I get the impression that SP wanted to join the growing bandwagon for distancing, got off in hopes that his scumbuddy could be saved, and then tried distancing again when it was clear Quag was going down.

I do not see how all of these would add up to scum. A scum would not do all the tactics I did, or at least in the order I did them in and on the same player. I wasn't sure what Quag was, but I was sure that Quag was going to get lynched for, as Adele's list suggests, most of the people in the game were ready to lynch Quag.

I also want to analyze the NK. Pooky was against Quag the entire time and did not waiver. He also came in near the end to convince the final people to lynch Quag. I think he was a relatively safe NK for the scum, but it shows that they were clearly against the people on the wagon yesterday. Not sure what else we can get from it....

[SilverPhoenix]

1. You're fingering him for bandwagoning randomly early in the game?

2. Is the best play if you haven't read your role PM

3. Examples please

4. His lynch was not smart, it was lucky.

5. Being an arse =/= being scum

I don't like that last sentence, either. Something about "accept you were wrong" feels off.

Vote: SilverPhoenix

What? After that long drawn-out tirade against Adele you vote for me? Is that a mistake or do you actually have a case against me?

[SilverPhoenix]

2. Is the best play if you haven't read your role PM

Also I am 57% sure that Quag was lying when he claimed neutrality. How are you so sure he didn't read his role PM?

[SilverPhoenix]

You're making the claims, it's your job to prove them

??? I asked the question and you should answer it. Plain and simple. It isn't a claim. You said that you still believed Quag's claim and I want to know why.

What made you change from believing quag did not look at his role pm to being split down the middle?

Because he was scum. If he was town, I still would have believed that he didn't look. But its pretty much a 50-50 shot since he was scum. It was hard to tell by his playing, however...so I cannot be sure.

[SilverPhoenix]

The town needs to wake up. Seriously.

I didn't want this role. I wanted to be a Lumberjack! Leaping from tree to tree!

I don't really care if this is bad play. All I care about is the scum targeting a confused townie.

[SilverPhoenix]

Look, it was a matter of time before I would have gotten lynched. My actions looked bad as a townie and the people supporting my lynch were exploiting that. I would normally have waited/claimed, but the mechanics of this game favor me to suicide now instead waste time for the town targeting town. I just want the town to have a serious looking at scotmany and JDodge specifically (mith to a lesser extent, but he is still dangerous as mentioned before).
I am still willing to play/contribute. I didn't suicide out of annoyance. I suicided because I was going to have to anyway.

[SilverPhoenix]

What do you mean, "All I care about is the scum targeting a confused townie", anyway?

If Quag had turned up town,

I would've probably passed this off as confused townie flip-flopping.

He said it himself. I was confused about what to do with Quag. Problem for me is that since Quag was scum, that makes me look scummy. It was an easily exploitable mistake (which I apologize for), and scum always hop on the easiest lynch.

[SilverPhoenix]

I didn't need to wait to prove my point.

[SilverPhoenix]

I'm too disappointed in your play to even give you a proper rant.

Anything I said today would not have persuaded you to make up for my actions during D1. You know that. But on another note, "disappointed" is a pretty ambiguous word. I could see a scum using it to describe the situation....but that is stretching it.

I implore the town to seriously consider the possibility that scotmany and/or JDodge are scum. Reasons:
1. Initial action w/ Quag
2. NK choice being Pooky who singled them out
3. Focusing on an easy lynch for both days (me)
4. General distancing of questions (as Adele said)
If you want quotes, ask and you will receive.

[SilverPhoenix]

I don't stubbornly stick to bandwagons just because I want to be right.

Sorry to assume that, but about 70% of the super-experienced players I have come across do that. In the games I have played, every single time it has gotten down to the wire and either someone else was lynched or I had to claim. I have learned my lessons from this game. However, I don't think this situation would have turned out any different. I simply didn't want it to happen, and I was selfish in that regard to the town. My apologies.

[SilverPhoenix]

Silver was scummy as hell.

You did realize I stumped right because of your stunt? I'm not going to deny that my actions looked bad, but your opportunism against lynching me for it is growing by the post. Can anyone else see that he was/is still (for reasons I cannot fathom) trying to hunt a townie?

I was scumhunting, just look at me question silver.

You weren't scumhunting. You were town hunting and you knew it. I don't believe you at all.

[SilverPhoenix]

First off, you are dead, so I can't hunt you.

I meant when I was alive, but the fact that you mentioned me in your analysis of the game made me feel like you were hunting me even though I was dead.

you admit your actions looked bad, but yet you still say I was townhunting?

Yes, because that is what opportunistic scum do. Yes, they looked bad but you took advantage of them in our argument from Pages 5-6. You deliberately were making me say two different things in succession and then calling me scum for it. I'll post the entire conversation after this post.

I felt like being nice, so now you don't have to look back.

Sarcasm is angry's younger cousin, and not needed in Mafia.

[SilverPhoenix]

I am actually going to Unvote and Vote: SilverPhoenix. You seem opportunistic to me, and you came right out and said you don't particularly find Quag scummy. You just want him out because he is playing at a neutral standpoint,
I was wrong, you guys are also voting for him cause he does not want to stump. If this was anyone else, then I would find this scummy, but after spending time with Quag on scumchat, this doesn't surprise me. I think it is just who he is, so that is why I am not looking into that too much.

The initial attack on me.

@scotmany,JDodge: Obviously, the prior knowledge that you guys had was Quagmire's reason for his beginning neutrality. My main problem with him is that he wanted neutrality but he didn't have a real reason for it until now. But turning that on me is not the way to go. I actually think that you are being opportunistic at my mistake. I never really said I didn't find him scummy. In fact...
Post 89 wrote:
That seems like scum trying to shut up a dumb-ass scum partner to me.

I made a small mistake. Don't lynch me for it.

This was my response.

And yet, your sole reason for voting for him is that he was acting as a neutral. For example...

And now you are trying to say you found him scummy the whole time? Judging by my posts, you seem to believe that quag never looked at his pm. THEN HOW THE HELL DO YOU FIND HIM SCUMMY AT ALL? How do you judge his actions as scummy if you believe that he doesn't even know what his role is?

This is were it turns to you exploiting my actions. I was flip-flopping because I had no clue what to believe at that point. You took advantage of me with this post.

If I was opportunistic, I would have completely ignored Quagmire's last post and still be advocating his lynch. I am not. I just see your and jdodge's actions as trying to get me lynched for what was really a mistake.

At that point, since I wasn't on the lynchwagon anymore, so I didn't see why scot refused to believe that I was being indecisive, not opportunistic.

Yet you were still advocating his lynch before hand. You can't change that. And then when I question on it, you say you found him scummy. I already pointed out how that contradicts you. In reality, you could not find him scummy, as you believed he never looked at his role. Thus you wanted to lynch a neutral basically.

And whenever scum slip off, they call it a mistake. So yeah, you can call it a mistake all you like. Thats not going to change my opinion.

Now you pull it all together, and say that because of the entire conversation you led me through up until this point, I am scum. I posed no serious threat to you or your beloved Quag. You refused to see this as a confused townie, which means you either you do not consider all of your options, or you knew I was town anyway.

That is the jist of it. But ultimately, realize that I came up town. I foresaw the same situation as I have been in before and almost every time, the person that chased me was scum (except for when I was scum, but that's not the point ). Hopefully this shows a better insight on why I think scot is scum.

[SilverPhoenix]

Also, jdodge said this:

go scot go

Need I say more? Encouraging what turned out to be town-hunting? Doesn't get much worse.

[SilverPhoenix]

For some reason I think that the only reason you are so set on me being scum is because I attacked you.

That's not correct. It was the way you attacked me and basically entrapped me into making myself look scummy that I have a problem with. That is why I showed the entire conversation so everyone can see your attack progression.

[SilverPhoenix]

Being unreadable is indeed dangerous.
Lynching people for it is more dangerous.

You can be unreadable w/o not actually reading your role PM. He could have actually played and been unreadable w/o telling us that he didn't read his PM and he probably would not have gotten lynched. People don't want to hear that you don't know what role you're playing. What I'm trying to say is that it was there were other ways of being unreadable that Quag could have explored if that was the reason why he didn't read his role, not the way he did which he handled horriblly. Which is why he was lynched. I agree we were lucky but it was Quag's own fault.

[SilverPhoenix]

Silver I have a question for you. Do you think it is fair that khorlash attacks me for not considering that your "mistake" was just a mistake rather than a scummy move, but when I make a mistake, when I answered your question wrong if I believe quag looked at his role, I don't get the benefit of the doubt?

Normally, I would say yes, you would get the benefit of the doubt. But being wrong twice about alignment (Quag being the first) is somewhat pushing it. If Korlash comes up town, you should be lynched.

[SilverPhoenix]

But silver, I never said quag was town. I never said he was scum. I believed that he did not look at his role, and that we should focus on other things on day 1.

I still consider that a mistake. You showed that you believed Quag without question, which I have a large problem with. Not considering all the options is not very pro-town, IMO. Even if the option is unlikely, it still should be at least acknowledged. You didn't acknowledge that Quag could have been lying. You didn't acknowledge that I could have been a (initially) confused town. This type of playing is very problematic and seems to me only to have one goal: to kill someone (by that I mean anyone). Not very pro-town indeed.

I wrote:
Korlash wrote:
Are you a dumb town, or a stupid scum? Either way I hope you die today…

So you don't care if I'm scum or not? Even if I'm town you want me dead? [sarcasm]That has got to be the most protown move this entire game.[/sarcasm]

Did Korlash say that during his super-tirade? Hmmm.....troubling....

However I enjoy how you keep trying to find little holes in my case and try to push them with all your might.

That is what scotmany seems to be good at...

[SilverPhoenix]

I replaced into this game and saw Quagmire and Adele went after each other like two super-distancing scumbags on Day 1

You seriously believe that? I do not think that Adele would have acted so aversely towards Quag for random voting her. I mean, he moved on to other targets as the day progressed, so I don't really think that she was worried about getting lynched. Because she didn't relent on her case against Quag, I don't think she is scum. A lot of people do that here...

[SilverPhoenix]

Maybe if you brought up a nice list of points against me

Did you miss page 13 or something? As in the page with 7 really

really

long posts by Korlash? I don't care if you think its bullshit or not, but he already did what you asked. He can have a case you don't believe, but that doesn't mean your belief is absolute for everyone. The thought of making people believe you are absolutely right is pretty scummy, IMO....

[SilverPhoenix]

the distancing backfiring

No one made a connection between Quag and Adele as being scumpair yesterday. I don't see how it could have backfired due to that fact and that Quag lynch went through anyway. I just don't see it as distancing.

[SilverPhoenix]

Unfortunately for the scum, Goofball barged in and cracked the game, haha.

Your view of Adele/Quag as scum is intriguing and I understand why you made it, but I just don't see it really as possible. I really don't think they could have fooled all of us in the game (except for you, of course).
I have to ask

scot

and/or

JDodge

: Do you think DGB's situation is possible? Also, what do you think of Quag now that he turned up scum? We never really heard (or asked for that matter) about your final thoughts on Quag.

[SilverPhoenix]

I am still here. My views on DGB are almost in line with Adele's. The statement that troubled me the most is this:

Unfortunately for the scum, Goofball barged in and cracked the game, haha.

I don't give respected players the right to make mistakes, or for them to use their experience as a form of absolute truth. That statement implies absoluteness, and I do not think that it is protown at all to not consider all of the options. The same could be said for scot initially as well, which was the basis of my argument against him. So I see DGB and scot doing the same thing: proclaiming their argument as absolute truth. And I do not believe them whatsoever.

[SilverPhoenix]

It was just the tone that struck me as haughty. I was kind of saying that in response to Adele's "fan-girlish" response-thing and your tone. And you might have been sarcastic about it, but you still said it.

[SilverPhoenix]

I'm not quite sure how you can argue that a playstyle is scummy.

Hmm....I have a hard time agreeing with that. Yes, scummieness is not completely dependent on playstyle, but we do judge people based on their actions, and henceforth their playstyle. I don't think anyone can honestly say that they play the same way for all roles.

[SilverPhoenix]

I cannot speak for the others...

Most

others. Although I have made the exact same mistakes in the past two games I've played in. XP

[SilverPhoenix]

[quote="mith]If you would like to get the people you think are scum, why did you list yourself?[/quote]
It is something that he has done the entire game. I believe he has voted himself at least twice, and when I asked him in D1 why, he basically sounded like a random reason. It might be a tactic to confuse us, but I can't be sure (I'm confused lol ).

[SilverPhoenix]

Hmmmm.....I thought he was town. *shrug I guess I can't say much.
I think a reread is in order for this silly game.