Designer Mafia - GAME OVER!

[mneme]

Note that lying about roles you submitted is actually a surer way to be found out as scum than anything else (including lying about your role and not being backed up). After all, dead folks can't back you up, but they -can- confirm or deny a submission claim.

I agree that while we can argue (lots) about mass claims, and can argue about talking about the pro-town roles we submitted, it's probably worthwhile to talk about the evil roles we submitted, just so the town knows what it might be dealing with.

[mneme]

Having seen the arguments, I have to come out against a mass evilrole claim -- it gives a significant boost to the bad roles (more to a mafia than to a SK, but still), as they can then make it impossible for the town to confirm good roles by killing everyone who didnlt submit a member of their group -- knowing who submitted successful evil roles is identical to knowing who successfully submitted good roles. (except, of couirse, that if we have two mafia, or a mafia and an sk, that nobody will have complete info).

Now...Leonidas, is that a cop claim or joke?
Note that Totem's polish was posted on April 1...

vote: mneme

. He just seems scummy to me.

[mneme]

I voted myself because I ddin't trust myself.
I think I'm probably mafia, but I'm not sure.

[mneme]

Ok, April's 1's over. And that was lame, but I had to do -something-.

unvote: mneme

Need to think for a real vote. Tomorrow.

[mneme]

Actually, what I should have done in retrospect was explain that I'd submitted a powerful evil role which had to post in a foreign language once per day, but that might have actually worked ("oops" . This might also have worked, but it seemed less likely, somehow.

Ok, back to being serious...

FOS: Victoria

, whose first post, as a "I'm joining a bandwagon and will blame the messenger if it turns out to have been a joke or wrong" seems off to me. Leo's post could as easily have been a random "because he's scum" as a not-really-a-cop-claim.

That said, it's all of nine to lynch, and I'd like to get something more out of God than we've seen, (and I promised a vote today), so

vote: God

(fourth vote)

[mneme]

Thanks for the vote count, FD.

Sorry, missed one. Keeping my vote on God, for now, since we''re still safe from a rogue voter or two pushing things over the line before God gets a chance to talk.

[mneme]

Finger of Stupidity: Froggurl. Based on your claimed role (target a player, find out whose role they have, or who has the role they submitted), there is a -very- obvious tactic:

Find out what the -good- role was from the player who submitted it. Whoever has the good role in question should claim. (you can verify said claim). If the player who has the role does not claim the good role or a close variation of it, lynch them -- they are scum.

Clearly, this tactic usually fails if a player says what his evil role is -- there's no incentive to claim the evil role, and if you know both good role and evil, (and are evil), you can identify as the good role. In this case, however, I'd kinda like (if froggurl confirms my supposition of how her ability works) a claim from the "Hobo" -- even if he lies, his mafia buddies will kill him, so it's probably worth outing him if froggurl knows who he is (but in case the evil role was changed enough to be unrecognizable, I'd like to wait for a claim before froggurl reveals the Hobo/Traitor).

(of course, properly speaking, we may also want confirmation of Froggurl's role if possible).

[mneme]

Finger of Stupidity: Froggurl. Based on your claimed role (target a player, find out whose role they have, or who has the role they submitted), there is a -very- obvious tactic:

Find out what the -good- role was from the player who submitted it. Whoever has the good role in question should claim. (you can verify said claim). If the player who has the role does not claim the good role or a close variation of it, lynch them -- they are scum.

Clearly, this tactic usually fails if a player says what his evil role is -- there's no incentive to claim the evil role, and if you know both good role and evil, (and are evil), you can identify as the good role. In this case, however, I'd kinda like (if froggurl confirms my supposition of how her ability works) a claim from the "Hobo" -- even if he lies, his mafia buddies will kill him, so it's probably worth outing him if froggurl knows who he is (but in case the evil role was changed enough to be unrecognizable, I'd like to wait for a claim before froggurl reveals the Hobo/Traitor).

(of course, properly speaking, we may also want confirmation of Froggurl's role if possible).

[mneme]

*looks quizically at Totem* Following cop claims is usually, right-or-wrong, a good move in my universe.

And while there might be some wierd roles, I know -I- didn't submit any insane cops -- they'd be pretty weak for this game.

[mneme]

Dunno. But given that neither has posted much, I don't know that we can force either to say more. Though the best way to try is to increase the vote count on God...

(looks up at the last vote count and realizes that he's incapable of this, since he's already voting for God -- oops)

confirm vote: God

[mneme]

Narnian: Yow. So with the Demoralizer around, the Mafia could have won (if there weren't any Vigilante or SK roles left, that is) with 1/4 of the population of the game?

Good night, in any case, with one confirmed townie (I should think) re-alive, and two more scum down.

[mneme]

Ok, co consider the night shop owner confirmed. It doesn't sound like a very useful role, though -- I'd guess that most non-mafia roles make night choices in this game.

[mneme]

So....what could the mafia framer -do-, Nanook?

[mneme]

A much more plausible explaination, though, is an indirect cop -- who can target two people, one of whom recieves the results on the other (thus allowing the cop to reveal his results without revealing his identity, of course).

An alternative is a role that mimics an indirect cop, or which just lets you target a player and send them a message, which can, of course, be disinformation.

That said, I think the indirect cop is a much more likely possiblity, though it's possible that Nanook was targetted by the framer and so only "looks" guilty. But I'm not certain it's the way to bet, not at all.

FOS: Nanook

[mneme]

Bluesin: Are you really claiming that nanook's caller is more likely to be a indirect cop because the message he got was NOT VERY CONVINCING?

Wow.

[mneme]

It's possible that Leonida's result yesterday was Innocent.

Agreed that only current lead is Nanook, though the lynch doesn't guaruntee us a scum, making it more questionable.

Can anyone confirm the existence of an indirect cop? Did anyone get IC-like Night 1 results?

[mneme]

What's the reason to vote for Bloojay, again?

[mneme]

vote: Nanook

for fairly obvious reasons.

[mneme]

confirm vote: Nanook

[mneme]

Norinel: True...but the chance of a framer targetting a specific person is still pretty low.

vote: Norinel

Also, since the indirect cop idea has now been -confirmed- (by Nanoook's guilt)...

anyone get any mysterious out-of-role coplike info last night?

[mneme]

Um. Good point, Bluesin.

unvote: norinel
FOS: Norinel
vote: Leo

[mneme]

I'm definately getting the whiff of leptons coming from Leo's direction.
Re the day 1 "cop" claim, a cult recruiter who tried to recruit a mafia might very well get info indicating his or her target was scum, and thus be able to mimick "cop". This probably explains bloojay's comment, as he'd know, assuming his "good" role didn't have investigative abilities, that Leo could only be the evil one.

Oh -- Nanook was my evil role: as might be expected, he was a mafia who could make up false roles for those he killed, which would only be revealed when he died.

confirm vote: leo

[mneme]

Nice summary post, frogurl. Except for the thing about Gaspode doing well in the past.

Given the logic chain (innocent investigation, successful investigation...), ie, the whole tangled mess, I have to switch to "follow the cop", I think.

unvote: Leo
Giant Pointing Finger of Suspision: Leo
vote: Norinel

[mneme]

Cults are usually a different evil group than mafia, BlueSin.
That's like asking why an SK would want to lynch a mafia or vice versa.

[mneme]

I think people are waiting for Bloojay to be replaced.

[mneme]

Agreed to both -- fingering a protown role as scum for basically no reason is not just a little bit suspicous, and Norinel we would seem to have a positive Scum ID on.

vote: Norinel
FOS: korais666

[mneme]

Korais666: So...you basically helped lynch an innocent by not reading the thread, and realizing the only reason we even considered voting for Leo was that Bloojay (your predecessor) claimed him to be the recruiter? Not exactly pro-town behavior (or even good play, unless you needed him dead for some reason).

[mneme]

Was a fun game.

The really difficult thing (and the reason I spend my time going after unknowns) was Totem as the time traveller -- his power was just amazing (ie, a superdoc who only could save dead, non scummy people). I think this was the only role that was too powerful -- as it was, I think all the remaining scum ignored all the cops in order to hunt for the Traveller...which was correct; there was no way we could ever win byt the numbers if we didn't find him (ok, we didn't know what the role was called, but that's besides the point).
I, at least, was hoping all his revived peopel woujld disappear once I got him; that would have been an interestingly balanced (more, anyway) role, as it was, I think the game was doomed before Bluesin and I targetted each other.