Mini 515 - The Pine Barrens - Game Over!

[hasdgfas]

/confirm

[hasdgfas]

vote: opie

because he doesn't have an avatar

[hasdgfas]

congratulations opie. welcome to the land of the avatared.

unvote: opie, vote:Zakarum

for the same reason I voted for opie.

[hasdgfas]

boggzie, did you get a PM?
there's a possibility ryan actually did send you a pm for replacement in his game. have you checked the game that he says he needed replacement in? were you interested in being a replacement for him? is your name close to anybody's name who did want to be a replacement. I find you to be a little too sure about this. PM's are sent out for many different reasons. I think you're making too much out of something that is possibly nothing, and that's scummy.

vote: boggzie

[hasdgfas]

that should be

unvote, vote: boggzie

[hasdgfas]

Also, invariably, instead of deleting the PM why didn't he just PM again and say; "oh already found someone" like every other mod does, had I even asked to replace anywhere anyway?

yeah, this happened to me. I got a notification of a pm from someone who I asked to replace into a game of theirs and didn't have the pm when I checked or a "oh, already found someone" PM. It happens. not everyone thinks "oh, I PM'd a bunch of people to replace, I'll let them know that they don't need to." If it was me and they hadn't opened their PM, I would just delete it. I still think your "I got a PM from someone, they are scum" is full of crap. my vote stays.

[hasdgfas]

hasdgfas

- I'd like to know your thoughts now. Keep your vote on me, whatever, but I'd like to know why you'd so quickly believe ryan's OMGUS reply & vote. I mean, I have the most to lose, really it's the only way anyone's believing me. So that weighed against a

blatant

OMGUS vote, and subsequent angry posts; where do you stand? How do you feel about ryan?

To be honest, I don't trust either of you. I don't think you're scumbuddies because, while this would be a brilliant ploy, the reactions seem too genuine. The reason I believed ryan was because as I said before:

yeah, this happened to me. I got a notification of a pm from someone who I asked to replace into a game of theirs and didn't have the pm when I checked or a "oh, already found someone" PM.

Deleting a PM without telling someone what it was if they hadn't opened it makes sense to me. I was confused when the above happened to me, so I PM'd the PMer and he said that the PM was to find a replacement, but he already found one. I think the same thing happened to you and the timing was a coincidence. You're making too much out of a PM that could have been for many reasons. My vote is on you for making too much out of a little thing, but just so you know, it could easily be on ryan for the same thing. You just seem a little more...eager to get someone lynched quickly.

@ryan: If you keep responding with these emotional posts rather than logical arguments to refute his statements, there is a possibility I will change my vote. I think there is a good possibility that one of you is scum, and at this point I think it's Boggzie, but IGMEOY.

The only solution is for SOMEONE to be lynched

he's not in this game

but anyway. Bookitty gives me good vibes. All these accusations about things that have nothing to do with the game seem unfounded and wrong. There does need to be a lynch today, but Boggzie bringing bookitty into this because her name is similar to his is ridiculous and is, IMO, the only reason she is under suspicion right now. That is another reason why my vote is on Boggzie. bringing someone else into this based on something that might be a reason as to why she might have received a PM. that is an unnecessary accusation and it seems like you're just throwing suspicion on people to try to get them lynched because there is a possibility that you got mis-sent a scumbuddy PM that possibly was intended for Bookitty because her name is somewhat similar to yours. very scummy, just throwing around suspicion based on something as weak as that.

[hasdgfas]

Well.... does this mean Bookitty is off the hook or could she just have been trying to cover for herself by outing ryan.

I'll assume this is a question. Nobody is ever off the hook after a NK. Usually nobody makes it obvious by killing someone that was going after them strongly the previous day, but that gets into WIFOM territory, so you can't go by that.

Uhm, I think others will agree with me when I say that you weren't being aggressive, and if anyone was being aggressive about anything, it was ryan and Boggzie, which brings me to a question I think a lot of us would like addressed...

what now, Boggzie?

I second this sentiment

[hasdgfas]

Although most of this has been said already. I would like to state my thoughts at this point.

mcpaltp: I

know

this has been said, but you weren't the one responsible for ryan. I've seen pressuring used well in other games. Imo, ryan just took it too harshly and used extremely bad judgement in the vast majority of his posts, and before he modkilled himself, I was feeling less and less sure of his innocence each post until the modkill. Then I knew I was extremely happy with where my vote was for that day. Your posting was not inappropriate in any way, and you should stay in this game.

besides that, there's not too much else to say until some of the quiet ones start talking. I still want to hear from Boggzie after yesterday's fiasco, and hearing from ThAdmiral, Zakarum, and other quiet ones will be useful in making my judgement.

[hasdgfas]

Seems odd to me that you point out that Has was against it, yet dont say anything about myself. I was against the Ryan wagon just as much as he was...but you only give brownie points to Has? FOS: Has and opie connection.

Elias, could you please point out where you were against it, because I don't see it. Unless I'm just badly reading this, you don't really mention much of anything about it.

[hasdgfas]

ok, thank you zakarum, I was actually hoping elias would show me where he did it, because he says that he was against it "just as much as

was" and I'm not sure that he was that strongly against it. One post defending ryan is not the same as defending him strongly.
And this:

I do not suspect Ryan much either. Ryan has a decent excuse for sending a pm in the first place, and it is completely unverifiable whether or not it was for replacement. Also, last time I saw him get this defensive, he was town (and quoted his pm, but we won't get into that). This isnt to say I think he's town; This is just to say that I dont think he's scum for either of the major tells on him so far.

if that is supposed to be a defense of ryan, then just about anything can be

Also, how can I be seen as defensive in a 2 sentence post? I asked Elias where he defended ryan? Please enlighten me as to how that is defensive.

[hasdgfas]

elias, you said that you don't think he's scum for the "major tells" on him, but you also say

This isnt to say I think he's town

What I get from those combined is that you think he's scum, but not for the reasons mentioned so far. I didn't get a "defense" from it per say, just that he wasn't scum just because of the PM thing. I will say, however, that I can see your side of it, saying:

You called into question the validity of the PM tell, but you made a post almost agreeing with the appeal to emotion tell. So how did I defend him less?

I just assumed that since I was saying how ryan could be right, it was seen as defense of him, but looking back at my posts, I understand your point of view.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Very defensive hasdgfas im starting to see the connection between you and opi.

Zakarum, I still would like to know what this is referring to. Is it something in my 2-sentence post, or is it elsewhere?

[hasdgfas]

has anyone here played in a game with Spider Jerusalem before? Does anyone in this game have a vendetta against him for any reason? If neither of those answers it, it's more likely random. However, I re-read his posts, and they seem to be some of the more analytical, well-thought out and reasoned posts in this game. Maybe they thought if he survived too long that he would become a threat? However, would they have any good reasons to vote for

anyone

in particular after the type of day 1 we had?

[hasdgfas]

the problem with that is that SJ felt ryan was more scummy than Boggzie, and was more in favor of lynching ryan that Boggzie. He just didn't vote for ryan.

In conclusion I lean towards believing situation #1 (Boggzie is town, ryan is scum)

I'm not sure your suspicion is actually anywhere close to the truth, Zakarum

[hasdgfas]

ThAdmiral, I have to agree with what everyone else is saying. If you're going to make a statement such as that, you have to be proactive enough to look for the post you're commenting on. Sometimes posts look different when you're actually trying to write about them than when you're thinking about them. I remember a few times when I wanted to write about someone's suspicious post, only to go back and see that it didn't say what I thought it said. Quoting "the spirit" of someone's post doesn't work unless you go back and re-read the post, meaning you might as well just quote the post while you're at it. It just seems kinda... scummy to me when someone acts like that when attacking someone.

[hasdgfas]

Zakarum, what is up with you? All you seem to be doing is agreeing with everybody, which is extrememly scummy. Don't just follow people, come up with your own ideas on everything. Blindly agreeing with people is a terrible idea when you don't know anyone else's alignment. Unless, somehow, you

do

know everyone else's alignment, which leaves 2 possibilities. Also, you

still

haven't answered my question from a long time ago:

Very defensive hasdgfas im starting to see the connection between you and opi.

Zakarum, I still would like to know what this is referring to. Is it something in my 2-sentence post, or is it elsewhere?

I do still want an answer to it please. I have no clue where you see me being defensive and how it connects me with opie.

I also don't like the attacks on Thadmiral. I feel he is just a scapegoat because of so little information. Although he hasn't posted much I don't think he is scum and i think the quote was just a mistake.

This has been gone over quite a bit since the incident in question. The things I have seen with regards to this is:
Opie:

ThAdmiral, I think you are misreading Bookitty's posts and by not quoting them, you are misleading others by misstating them.

I think the post you are refering to is Post 80, when she says:

I am going to ask, though. Are you aware, Boggzie, that if this is just a gambit on your part, you're likely to be lynched tomorrow if you're wrong?

This is not a "If ryan is scum, i'm definately voting boggzie tomorrow" statement. I read it to be a warning that is Boggzie is wrong about this issue he is setting himself up to be a lynch target. Not necessarily by her but the town.

Bookitty's post does not in any way imply that she was planning a Boggzie lynch if ryan turned up town, just that he was going to have some explaining to do if ryan did turn up town.

You seem to be not fully paying attention to what is going on in this game. Your reasons are iffy at best, and downright scummy at worst.

vote: Zakarum

Throughout this entire game, your posts have made me scratch my head and say "What?" They haven't seemed like pro-town posts to me.

[hasdgfas]

EBWOP: after

Bookitty's post does not in any way imply that she was planning a Boggzie lynch if ryan turned up town, just that he was going to have some explaining to do if ryan did turn up town.

somehow the rest of my paragraph got erased. Here it is:
The majority of ThAdmiral's day 2 has been spent with his suspicion on Bookitty and his misquote of her post that I have already quoted. Many people have said that it was terribly lazy posting for him not to go find the quote. Since that seems to be the majority of his argument, having it based on a misquote seems very suspicious and not pro-town.

[hasdgfas]

gah, got my prod, sorry guys. I've been paying attention, but have had trouble thinking of something to say. I'll post some of my thoughts at this point.

mcpaltp: He started by apologizing for his thinking that he was too hard on ryan. Everyone told him that it wasn't his fault. He kept bringing it up, which seems a bit fishy to me. Nobody thinks he was overly vicious, why keep bringing it up? It seems somewhat like an appeal to emotion to me, but it isn't too much of a tell at this point. I think he is genuinely sorry, but let's drop that route and discuss stuff besides that now.

zakarum: He still seems a bit...detached. That's not the right word, but he seems to be using some sub-par logic and he hasn't looked pro-town in many, if any, of his posts. That's where my vote is, and until he starts talking more, my thoughts on him won't change.

More to come soon, this was just some of the basics in response to my prod.

[hasdgfas]

all right, let me make my case against Zakarum. If some of these points have been covered by others, I'm sorry. I will attempt to look for them elsewhere, but I feel it's important for me to give my opinion, even if it's saying something that someone has already said. Sorry about the length, but I feel that some case needs to be made for someone since we seem to be going off on tangents for the most part today. All the suspicion seems to be for out-of-game things, and we need something based solely on the game.

Day 1:

Zakarum's first post:

Yeah, I suspect that there's nothing about ryan jumping the gun that's ACTUALLY a tell. But if we don't start making mountains out of molehills we'll never get out of the random voting stage.

Trying to get a quick lynch?

Um, what? That statement means nothing besides the fact that we have to suspect people for little things. It has nothing to do with wanting to lynch someone quickly.


Zakarum's second post:

I as a player have nothing against lynching townies for the gain of the town, though I dont want to get into that debate right now. However, lynching another townie to clear your own name is in no way a good reason to lynch someone that you don't think is scum. First, you're assuming that you are more valuable to the town. Second, you're assuming that by doing this youre actually clearing your name, and I feel that youre doing quite the opposite. So yeah. Scummy post. Also, if Bookitty is scum, theres lots of motivation to lynch a townie and clear herself. Not to mention her inconsistency on whether or not she got a pm from ryan.

I agree with all of this. Assuming we lynch ryan and he comes up town, how does this prove that you are town? Answer: it does not. It does not clear your name.

Vote: Bookitty

Although it's pretty certain that if you come up scum, ryan's next on the chopping block.

QFT Very nice read Elias good call.

Vote: Bookitty

Following along with someone else's logic and placing a vote without adding any reasons of your own? Not often a good idea. It's almost always better to give reasons along with a vote.

That is the whole of his posts for Day 1.

Day 2:
The first post of him for day two:

Well.... does this mean Bookitty is off the hook or could she just have been trying to cover for herself by outing ryan.

I don't understand this post at all. Nobody is ever off the hook for anything unless there is a sane cop and they find an innocent. Why even ask that unless you're trying to muddle things?

next post of the day:

Great. No only is my scumdar competely off and a townie gets himself modkilled, but we lose an awesome townie. (Nice flavor, btw) This blows.

Oh, and thanks ryan. Thanks a bunch. Not only is a townie lynched, but we don't even get any vote histories to analyse.

If there is a consensus that I was acting inappropriately/too aggressively in pursuing someone who I thought was scummy, I'll ask to be replaced. I really don't want to ruin the fun for everyone else/break the game. Even if there is not a consensus, I'd like everybody to weigh in on maybe how I should have done that differently, if at all. I'm feeling guilty about the whole mess.

Seems very very scummy.

FOS: mcpaltp

Not too much to say about that. At least say why it's scummy instead of just agreeing with everybody else (again) and FoSing him

third post of day 2:

Boggzie why would you do the whole im sorry thing after we just gave mcpaltp all that crap for it?

Are you faking it or is he? Are you both scum and your trying to take attention off of him? Or are both of you just very sorry townies and didnt mean to get one of us killed?

Eather way we have very little to go on and i would hate to vote for someone when all i have to go on is that they said they are sorry.

Just repeating what others have said.

next:

um, yeah. this bandwagon is moving WAY too fast for my liking.
As far as I see it, there is no proof of whether the PM was for replacement purposes or for the purpose of PMing a buddy. Personally, I'm inclined to think its the former, seeing as
1) He IS searching for a replacement in a game, and
2) Sending a pm to his buddy now would be daytalking, and I'm assuming we have no cheaters here. Obviously, I could be wrong, but I doubt it.

That being said,

unvote

.
Also, Boo, PLEASE don't do that. He may be scum, he may not, but the fact that he sent a pm to someone that MAY have been intended for you is certainly not enough for me to think you're scum, and if the rest of the town thinks otherwise, then the quality of play in this town is kind of questionable. (aka, you should NOT get lynched based on that alone).

More later.

Very defensive hasdgfas im starting to see the connection between you and opi.

FOS: Hasdfas and opi

As I have said before, I have no idea how he got a connection between me and opie out of my post. In no way was I defending Opie, I was asking Elias to clarify his comment. Nothing to do with opie whatsoever. I think you were reaching here to try to get others aboard with your views.

his next post is just saying that he found the quote from elias pretty quickly

next:

This could be because I check these forums way to much or because my sense of time is a little off sometimes, but it seems like we are detracting from one of our major suspects Boogzie. I feel SJ had the best arguments and because of being against lynching ryan would have been the first to go after Boogzie so what do they do they kill him.

I feel that his "internet problem" couldn't have come at a better time. Take a couple of days off have a couple scumbuddies give the townies something else to think about while he gets away with letting ryan die.

SJs night kill wasn't random it was planned.

wait, what? Boggzie? I have seen nothing about Boggzie in your previous posts except that he shouldn't be sorry. Where did this come from? Trying to get a lynch of a relatively easy target who still seems suspicious to people?
As I have said before, SJ was not against a ryan lynch, so that argument is crap. Internet problems happen, often at inopportune times. Yes, the NK was planned, but all of them are. I don't get the point of the last sentence.

after a few posts without much of note:

Zakarum: Do you still agree with the points I made today, or not? And if so, why have you made no serious mention of the possibility of Boo being scum today? If not, what was it that changed you mind?

If your talking about post 167 then yes i do agree with your points. I'm not sure why I haven't brought up Bookitty since the start of this day but it doesn't mean I have forgotten or stopped supporting the idea her and Boggzie are highest on my suspicious list due to the lynching of ryan. My other accusations were just to kinda throw ideas out there.

The only thing different is that I fell more suspicious of Boggzie than of Bookitty. The main reason is for pushing ryan very hard without strong evidence even after Bookitty stated that she got a pm regarding replacing into ryan's game.

keep mentioning that you still feel Bookitty is scum then. Don't just go completely to another target. When you do that you look like scum trying to find an easy target to lynch

next:

If Boggzie is scum, he must be laughing his ass off right now, because nobody seems to care at all about what happened on day1. I do like having other things to discuss, and I did specifically prompt some other discussion, but when Boggzie starts making comments such as "frankly, anyone defending me right now, even to me, looks scummy" (and that is a direct quote), I just have to wonder if he's just getting comfortable with the thought that he can incriminate himself all he wants and nobody will vote for him. Let's face it people, he could say "no really, I'm scum" and a few people here would still let him go.

Boggzie, if you're town and you want to help us, do us a favor and for chrissakes defend yourself to keep yourself alive. If you don't I'll have to assume you're scum.

Do you want to help or not?

Vote: Boggzie

until you've convinced me otherwise.

I agree with this very strongly although i will wait until Boggzie has a chance to defend himself before I place my vote. I also don't like the attacks on Thadmiral. I feel he is just a scapegoat because of so little information. Although he hasn't posted much I don't think he is scum and i think the quote was just a mistake.

Oh look another agreement, big surprise. Also, why don't you think he is scum. Give reasons, not just your opinions.

lastly:

I don't agree with everyone hasdgfas I agree with who I fell is making a good point. I have given a couple different times my own ideas on Boggzie and even in the post you quoted from I gave my feelings on Thadmiral.

In response to your question sorry I must have not read it when I was reading through. I just felt that you were defending opi pretty strongly by calling Elais out like that when it wasn't very hard to find that Elais did defend ryan.

Sorry if it comes out that I am not paying attention but I do have a life I'm a college student so a lot of my time goes to studying. If it is that much of a problem you can replace me.

Fine, you don't agree with everyone all the time. Your arguments, however, as I've shown above, have been nonexistant to minimal. Mostly just what you thought, without any reason. That never looks good.

Another apology from someone, we've gone over this already.

Then there is the lurking. Not just the lurking, but the lurking, then jumping in and saying something that didn't make too much sense.

Throughout the entire game, I haven't been able to shake the scummy feeling I get from you. My vote feels good where it is right now.

[hasdgfas]

Happy Birthday neko2086!!

seconded. I wish there was a cake smiley. I would give it to you

[hasdgfas]

hasdgfas:

What do you think of the possibility that ThAdmiral and Zakarum are scumbuddies? I'm somewhat leaning in that direction at the moment.

I think it unlikely. I'm not sure how new Zakarum is, but it shouldn't matter. The scum have had time during confirmations and during Night 1 to talk, I would assume that they would discuss their playing strategy, which would include not following each other too closely. WIFOM somewhat, yes, but still, in most games, that's what they discuss when they have a chance to.

I find it more likely that Zakarum is scum and ThAdmiral is a townie or vice versa. Zakarum has been following/defending/agreeing with multiple people this game, what makes ThAdmiral/Zakarum more likely than say Elias/Zakarum or Zakarum with someone else he has agreed with? If he is scum, Zakarum knows who the townies are, and would possibly just follow them, thinking that suspicion on him would be lessened if one of the people he was agreeing with died or was lynched.
If Zakarum is a townie, he seems to be a

very

newb townie, as basically every single one of his posts has set off my scumdar in some way, as I have already shown.

I'm suspicious of ThAdmiral for the misquote episode, but it reminds me of our day 1 incident with Boggzie, ryan, and the pm. Someone thought something, said it, was mistaken, and it becomes too big of an issue. This is not a defense of him, because the misquote that he used was suspicious, but it shouldn't be the entire basis for the day.

[hasdgfas]

dang it, I was hoping he would show up to defend himself.

[hasdgfas]

Hello Adel and welcome.
As your welcome gift I

unvote

. Since my problem was with Zakarum I'll see what you think about things before I decide what to do with it now.

[hasdgfas]

No offense Adel, but unless I know what you're trying to point out with those graphs, I still have no reason to trust you.

[hasdgfas]

All right, I have some more thoughts after Adel's discussion of his graphs and method.

1) Why did you feel the need to post it in the thread? Couldn't you have just left it out and done all your analysis, then posted something? It seems like you're trying to distract us from our methods of scumhunting. As opie somewhat mentioned, it's hard to defend against a mathematical algorithm, which I feel distracts from the spirit of mafia.

2) While Adel's methods may be suspect, I've seen some very interesting behavior since the posting of his graphs and his subsequent discussion and vote. There seems to be a lot of...overreacting to his methods and I wonder about that. It seems like they are only worrying about him instead of the group as a whole. I don't know why, since, at least imo, the graphs are nice, but don't help me in any way since I don't know the logic behind it. I'd rather have some hard evidence rather than graphs that I don't know the meaning of.

So IGEMOY Adel. The graphs are nice, but I'm not following you based off of them.

[hasdgfas]

Um, what the heck was that? Can we try to keep our posts related to the game please? And somewhat serious? *glares at mcpaltp*

Anyway, I'm still not liking Adel. I mentioned my reasons earlier and there have been multiple other people chiming in since then.

I'm leaning towards voting Adel at the moment, but I'd like to hear from Boggzie, ThAdmiral, TheHermit, and Elias regarding Adel before I do anything. I don't want him to get lynched before everyone chimes in.

[hasdgfas]

Adel: Why the heck are you self-voting? We lost two townies after a day 1 without too much information, do you want us to lose two more after a day that has been more helpful and can actually give us information? I'm not sure whether I find you more suspicious more self-voting or less suspicious. Maybe if there was a plan to your sacrifice besides "I don't want to out a powerrole", it would help a lot. But would you rather be down four townies with hidden powerroles or find a powerrole and have a better chance of hitting scum today?

I do, however, agree that scumtells are like tells in poker. Good analogy

mcpaltp: Not all of us self-vote when we're under suspicion. Hopefully you don't consider this game as a good example of a normal game here, because it's been anything but.

[hasdgfas]

So Boggzie, care to justify why you dropped the hammer? I notice you didn't exactly justify yourself there.

I second the motion. I was very disappointed to see that. I came back from class and it was night, and I saw Boggzie's hammer and didn't see any reasoning behind it. I will hold off of a vote because I know the danger of voting for someone who gives an unreasoned hammer, but if the explanation doesn't satisfy...

[hasdgfas]

Neko - you dropped of my "watch list" because you defended your position, and didn't jump away from your vote.

I dropped the hammer on Adel, because all of her (I guess) posts seemed like noise, distraction. Then, the self-vote I truly thought was a way of getting one of you to remove your vote from a mafia member. I figured Adel was banking on someone being too level-headed and cautious and removing a vote, or in my case or Admiral's we'd be too "standoffish" to toss a vote. Adel also never answered any questions, s/he only tossed around more noise and seemed to muddy the game.

That seems like a logical explanation. I felt the same way regarding her posts. Personally, I am satisfied with that reasoning, although it would have been nice to see that in your hammering post.

[hasdgfas]

neko2086, you a harsh critic of Adel, as was I and others, but I don't understand how Adel's death validates any of her methods. You told Adel that if she wanted to be remembered in a good way she should provide context to her numbers. I don't think she ever did that. I think Adel's method was just as bogus now as they were then, regardless of how confident she was.

QFT

[hasdgfas]

Where the heck are hasgdfas, Boggzie, Elias the Thief and ThAdmiral? Do you have any opinions? (probably not in the case of ThAdmiral)

Sorry, been busy lately. Attempting for get my thought down. Will try to get them up by Wed, but I'm preparing for a thanksgiving trip and it might be crazy. If I don't have all my thoughts, they won't get up until next week, but I'll do my best to get some small thoughts up on Wed at the very least.

[hasdgfas]

EBWOP: it's been 3 days since I last posted, that's not an uncommon amt of time to go w/o posting, and it's been a rather busy 3 days.

[hasdgfas]

If you give me a few minutes, I'll get something up. Just hang on, it's coming.

[hasdgfas]

Some thoughts before I leave for vacation:

mcpaltp: Good case on ThAdmiral, I'd be happy voting for him. However, you still look afraid of being OMGUSy against neko. Just vote him if you think he's scummy. Not liking the response to Bookitty's vote.

ThAdmiral: Not liking his lack of much good contribution. At least vote for someone at some point in the game. Don't just sit in the background and lurk without looking like you're lurking. Make a good case on someone using the evidence we have, and don't make up your own like you did for Bookitty day 2.

opie: Good points on neko in post 454. No time for me to look much further back, I've got other games to contribute to.

Boggzie: I agreed with his reasons for hammering, but the fact that he hammered, along with the ridiculous case on ryan day 1 still makes him a suspect to me.

Bookitty: I haven't seen too much scummy from her today, but I'm not looking far back, so maybe I'm missing something.

neko: I didn't see much scummy about him until opie's points that I already mentioned. It makes me want to look back through his posts to see what I can see.

Sorry about the lack of post here, but I don't have the time to get more up there. I'll wait until after Thanksgiving.
Limited to no access from tonight until Monday.

[hasdgfas]

I have returned. I will be re-reading and hopefully posting something tomorrow.

[hasdgfas]

Sorry I didn't get anything up yesterday. I hope to get multiple posts up today, so bear with me.
my comments in red

Ok guys, I havent posted in a while. Sorry. To outline my position:

Bookitty:

Earlier I was highly suspicious of Bookitty, but nothing in the last few pages has really caught my eye. As the days wear on, things that are highly suspicious on day 1 dont look nearly so bad in context with the rest of the game. Her original intention to vote someone she thought was town to clear herself, and later her random assertion that my logic was faulty, will be of note later in the game. But for now, Bookitty has fallen off my top two.

I somewhat agree with the falling off of the top of the scumdar, especially with the strangeness of this game. She hasn't totally fallen totally off of my scumdar, but looking more townie to me now

Boggzie:

Boggzie remains high up there, still based mainly on the ridiculous case he pushed day one. Not only did he push this bad lynch, he completely ignored what I said in defense of Ryan, and additionally my warning that Ryan likes to reveal his role as town. A dayending modkill is the best thing a scum can get day 1. Aka, I suspect that Boggzie ignored my posts because he wanted to see Ryan get modkilled, or at least lynched. And of course, I'm still no fan of the quick hammer on Adel.

Ok, Boggzie day 1. If he is scum, he did a very dumb thing on day 1 and gained lots of attention for something that he wasn't totally sure about. (yes, yes, WIFOM, etc.) However, we seem to have gotten off of that after Boggzie defended his position on day 2. I don't understand why, except for WIFOM arguments. and yes, the quick hammer on adel was bad. His defense seemed to be sufficient to me at first, but I have to look again

McPalt:

Yeah, basically my problem with mc is his quick jump on Boggzies case against Ryan. He also for the most part ignored my defense of Ryan. So for similar reasons to Boggzie, he's high up there.

I will be attempting to bring a post simply about mcpaltp soon, so not much to say here

ThAdmiral:

Hasn't really posted much case wise, mainly just defended himself. The only reason I don't see this as scummy is that I have behaved similarly as town. Noteworthy, but not voteworthy yet. Also, I liked his post 434, and was surprised by opies subsequent vote.

Hasn't posted too much at all, but I don't see why that isn't voteworthy. Staying as low as he has, especially the fact that he hasn't voted at all, is very scummy. Elias, have you ever gone through 2 whole days without voting as town?

Neko:

Opie brings up a wierd point, if nothing else, in 454, but its not really conclusive enough for me to find neko scummy. Everything else I've seen from Neko reads protown, pretty much.

Yes, those points were very interesting and I haven't found much else about neko scummy, but sometimes it only takes one little slip. I will be looking at neko a bit more closely

Opie:

I find Opie's jump on the Ryan pm thing equally disturbing as Mc's. Also, in post 72, he says that Boggzie would not have done this as scum based on heat he'd be under day 2. Yet in 161, he posts basically NOTHING against Boggzie. As a matter of fact, he almost never brings it up again. So I suspect an Opie-Boggzie connection. Also, as I've said before, I suspect an Opie-Hasdgfadsgasf connection. 32 and 35 seem a little too buddy-buddy for my liking. In 161, Opie commends Hasdfagads for defending Ryan, but lists Hasdfagad as the only one who did, totally ignoring that I did the same thing. In 457, Hasgdas only mentions one attack that Opie made as his analysis of Opies play, and provides no actual insight. I definately smell a connection. However, the connection cases dont mean a thing until one of them comes up scum. For now, there are better players to vote for then Opie.

The opie-boggzie connection is interesting, i didn't think about that before. I will be looking at it momentarily. Now, the opie-me connection. The commendation of me for defending ryan. I can see how he wouldn't fully understand that you were defending him, because it took me a few looks over it before I understood what you were saying. In 457, I was just taking a look at the last couple pages because I was in a hurry before thanksgiving, so only one analysis with no insight is because I didn't have time.

Hasgdagdsfsdgasdferqetr:

Obviously, there is the connection to Opie that I suggested above. Also, I've found that Hassdfadgas has been very inactive (though I am guilty of this as well). Not much to say really besides that, at least not until he returns from vacation.

Yes, I've been somewhat inactive, but I've also made a few big posts with what I considered good content. You have too, so I'm not saying I'm better than you in this regard, but we shouldn't necessarily look at that since Zakarum made very few posts before he was replaced and he/adel turned up town.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that's everybody. So really, I've been stuck between Boggzie, and Mcpaltp. Given the fact tha theyre guilty of the same offenses on the Ryan thing, but Boggzie also had the premature hammer on Adel, Boggzie has earned my vote today.

vote: Boggzie

Interesting analysis of everyone. I'm going to be looking closer at neko and opie-boggzie, but at this point, I'm stuck between mcpaltp and ThAdmiral. I'll attempt to get something more up later, with the slight possibility of a vote. Until then,

FoS: mcpaltp and ThAdmiral

[hasdgfas]

thank you opie, I will try to get my thoughts on mcpaltp up today, but I'm sure you know how birthdays go. It might not happen until tomorrow.

[hasdgfas]

A couple things.

Was that a vote from ThAdmiral!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? OMG. Hell must have frozen over too! Seriously though, that huge post is a good one.

And I'm really sorry, but crazy night tonight and you do not want me posting my thoughts on mcpaltp tonight since they'll be extremely crappy and probably not make much sense. I fervently hope that I can get them up tomorrow when I have more time, but for now my general thoughts are that mcpaltp is not helping himself any with his latest comments and I'm definitely going to look more closely at opie while looking at mcpaltp.

[hasdgfas]

my thoughts on mcpaltp are going to come in multiple parts so you all don't get flooded with information. I will be sectioning it by day at this point. Sorry for the length, but there's a lot to say. You can see why it's not all in one post. If you want to get the gist, just read what's outside the quotes because the quotes are backup. If you don't want to take the time to read everything, just read my new comments. I say this because I know long posts can be hard to read and I don't like reading everything, so I give people the gist in my comments.

Mcpaltp day 1:

not a whole lot to say here because of how strange the day was, but:

oh yeah,

unvote, vote:ryan

sorry about that.

Oh, and the whole exchange with Bookitty isn't really influencing my decison, if anyone is wondering.

(emphasis mine)
Why would you mention that? Why would anyone think you would be influenced by the exchange with Bookitty?
This looks a little bit like distancing from Bookitty, but since I find Bookitty to be very townie, it's not saying much.
I just found it strange that he felt like he had to mention that the exchange with Bookitty wasn't an influence. If it was me, I wouldn't have said anything regarding that unless I was specifically asked about it.


because of the craziness of ryan and how everyone was on him about his actions, he gets himself modkilled etc.

Day 2:
This is where we start seeing mcpaltp looking at more than just ryan.

Great. No only is my scumdar competely off and a townie gets himself modkilled, but we lose an awesome townie. (Nice flavor, btw) This blows.

Oh, and thanks ryan. Thanks a bunch. Not only is a townie lynched, but we don't even get any vote histories to analyse.

If there is a consensus that I was acting inappropriately/too aggressively in pursuing someone who I thought was scummy, I'll ask to be replaced. I really don't want to ruin the fun for everyone else/break the game. Even if there is not a consensus, I'd like everybody to weigh in on maybe how I should have done that differently, if at all. I'm feeling guilty about the whole mess.

The first part of that looks like the "OMG, Doc's dead" syndrome. Yes, I realize he was only a townie. However, SJ's posts seemed to make the most sense out of all of them on Day 1, and thus the "this blows" just like what people would think about a dead doctor.
Then we get the whole apology that comes back throughout the majority of day 2, which will come back later. He feels the need to say this as the second thing in all of day 2. Why so early?

I did forget to insert the /humour tag before and after. My bad.

No, Ryan's bad. It wasn't needed.

This is post #55, last Wednesday. This was the last thing that ThAdmiral posted, unless I missed him in the last few pages. We did just have an unexpected night, but I'd like to see, well,

any

content from him.

I am somewhat suspicious of Boggzie and Bookittie, but considering how much I though ryan was scum, it would be at least a little hypocritical to jump on either of them right now. I leaning towards "honest mistake" for the PM, but I'm going to reserve judgement for right now. They havn't been registering as scum so much to me, but my 'dar has clearly been on the fritz recently.

Oh well. Perhaps this will flush ThAdmiral out.

Vote:ThAdmiral

Mostly for my own curiosity:

Ignoring hindsight for now, did you think Ryan was scum/scummy? If not, where did you think my logic went off the rails? If so, did you agree with my reasoning?

Looking at the last line, I'm curious as to why he wants the answers to be about

his

logic and

his

reasoning. Why not the reasoning that just about everyone had on day 1?

So, what now town? I thought ryan was getting a little overemotional, but I didn't expect him to become an hero. I'm not all that suspicious of Boggzie; I think he really did believe ryan made a scum slip-up, but this episode just goes to show you can't base an accusation of mis-sent PMs. All of Day 1 was just too meta. And on top of that, we lost Spider Jerusalem! Man, no good comes from getting too emotional.

Now that I'm done summarizing the events of last night, I'm going to

Vote: mcpaltp

. Not only did he stubbornly refuse to accept that there was possibly no relevancy to the PM issue, but he comes out of the gate bowing and scraping. In my experience, after a mafia lynches a townie they are usually full of contrition. Not only that, I see his "if you think I was wrong I'll ask to be replaced" as obvious emotional manipulation. I'm not falling for it.

I press hard on some guy I've just met and he commits the mafia equivalent of suicide. I feel guilty and responsible, and if my pressuring is out of line for this mafia community, I offered to be replaced. I'm pretty new here and I'm used to a slightly different playstyle. I'm sorry if you see it as emotional manipulation, that's not my intention. If I was out of line, I'd leave this game, if it was ok, I'd stay. Simple as that, but I wanted to know how the players felt.

Also, I'm not sure what you ment by "[refusing] to accept that there was possibly no relevancy to the PM issue". I never really cared so much about the PM issue. I cared about how ryan was responding to the allegation. Take a look over my post history, I repeated myself several times to this effect.

He brings back his remorse for his actions regarding ryan even though multiple people have mentioned that it wasn't his fault and that he wasn't even the most aggressive pressurer on day 1.

What I really feel bad about is that he was so upset he effectively modkilled himself to get out of the game. It felt like I hazed somebody so badly that they wanted to quit the game rather than play with me anymore.

That's

what I'm apologizing for.

I still think my logic and reasoning was valid.

Here comes the remorse for his actions again after another person says it wasn't his fault.

Meh, that was all ryan's fault. In my limited time on the site here I've already been browbeaten at least as badly, and even at my most childish I didn't even consider quoting my role PM. That guy needs to get a thicker skin. No, I don't think you were out of line in the slightest.

We're still at a disadvantage, though... we're at Day 2 and thanks to ryan we don't have much info to go on.

Great. Well at least now I can stop worrying about it.

Why does it take him

this

long to stop worrying about it. At this point there had been at least 6 or 7 posts made saying it wasn't his fault, why did it take so long?

As of right now, I'm the most suspicous of ThAdmiral, due to consistant lurking. (seriously, I could count the number of posts on one hand.) I havn't wanted to press to hard on him, though, to give him a litte more opportunity to come out and post a little more. My vote will stay on him until I get some more content out of him.

I'm a little irritated by the people who keep pressing on me, because I've explained my reasoning

so many times,

and I honestly don't know what else I can say. I'd imagine somebody pressing on me amy be scummy, as I could seem suspicious, but I have no way of telling and no way of accusing right now without seeming absurdly OMGUS-y. This whole episode is making me feel like MS doesn't welcome politeness and regret for potentially hurting someone's feelings.

I'll try to fit in some good analysis soon.

Appreciate your input, though.

It looks like he's not over the whole apology episode still. He's making the same argument about it that people have told him didn't work because it still wasn't his fault.

Um, SJ's posts were awesome. If I were scum, I'd be targeting the stronger players first.

Or, it could be random. Who knows?

this looks like he's trying to get on the town's good side by complimenting the townie who was NK'd

I quoted what I felt was the

spirit

of the first of your two highlighted posts.
And even though you later backtracked on this, the fact still remains that at one point you

were

attempting to set up a chain lynch.

The spirit?

I know I'm probably the last person to be tossing accusations around, but, uh - "the spirit"? I haven't played that many games, but I've been in enough to know you can't quote "the spirit" of a post. Either someone said it, or they didn't. Your "quiet time" and this worries me. And frankly, anyone defending me right now, even to me, looks scummy.

Considering how well the last time I thought boggzie's arguments were apt went, I don't know if I should say this, but,

I agree, here. I don't like the lurking combined with the whole misquoting thing. I put my vote on as an exploritory measure, and I think I'll keep it on pending more contributions from ThAdmiral.

now we start getting into a discussion about ThAdmiral's misquote of Boo. Mcpaltp immediately joins the side of those accusing him for it, using this as a reason to keep his vote on. It seems like he wants to show how good a vote it was because now other people are agreeing with it.




That is through the end of page 10. I will be doing more later, and hopefully finishing up my re-read of mcpaltp. I'll almost definitely get more up on mcpaltp, but not promising that I'll finish. I have another busy night. I just wanted to make sure I got a start up that you could look at.

[hasdgfas]

it leaves it as good strategy for scum to keep this third member a secret. Perhaps having them not vote at all? In this case that makes it Admiral or has.

All of that said - I don't feel Admiral would have exploited his partners in an effort to simply distance. So, that leaves me thinking has is a strong possibility as a "hidden" partner for scum.

I don't think I could be considered as a "hidden" partner based on what you've said. Here have been my voting patterns so far. You can check them if you want to.
Day 1: The ryan fiasco: I vote Boggzie for what I feel is a ridiculous case on ryan and I stay there until ryan PM quotes. Yes, it's different than the majority, but still, that's not exactly hidden as it's different than the crowd.

Day 2: I make a case on Zakarum and am among the first to vote for him. As soon as Adel arrives, I unvote to hear what she has to say. Her graphs and such are distracting, IMO, and I state that I am thinking of voting for her, but I want to hear from others. After Adel self-votes the next day, I am more wary of voting for her since I still want to hear from people. Then comes the craziness and your quick-hammer. If you want to call that "hidden" go ahead, but I was about to vote Adel again before you hammered, I just didn't have time. So while that might make me scum based on the voting with others scumtell, it's not the "hidden" one, which I still don't understand, btw.

Today: I haven't voted yet because I believe it's lylo. Therefore, I FoSed mcpaltp and ThAdmiral before what I am currently trying to do, make a case on mcpaltp. "Hidden?" You must have a different definition than I do.
I want you to explain that better.

[hasdgfas]

Wait, why haven't I been lynched yet? Probability is very good that there are three scum. I doubt that all of the votes on me are scum, so that either means that two people voting for me are scum or that they are waiting for some reason. I don't get it at all.

huh. :iiam:

Btw, sorry in advance to the town. I guess that's what happens when you don't make sure that what you are saying you said actually matches what you said. I kind of ran this game as an experiment as to what not reading and just making snap gut judgements would be like.

I guess it just helps the scum. I think I did get some useful information for future games, though.

Oh well. Nice playing with you guys. For my own entertainment, I'm guessing Neko and ThAdmiral are scum, with Elias as the longshot third choice. I know this post is gonna get jumped all over for me feeling sorry, but that's okay. I wanted to let you know that I'm usually not this terrible. I did feel really bad about hounding ryan, and now I feel bad for contributing to a town loss. I'm really very sorry.

mcpaltp: NEVER give up until you've actually been lynched. It just looks bad and is almost like self-voting. Fight and defend yourself to the end. That combined with neko saying exactly what I was going to say about you(seriously, I didn't get the post up, and when I looked at neko's I wondered if somehow he found mine and paraphrased it), leads me to

vote: mcpaltp

Appeals to emotion, in this quoted post and other posts, strange behavior throughout the game. I just haven't seen good pro-town behavior since day 1, if even then.

[hasdgfas]

Naw, I'm th' softest! Like goose down!

C'mon, somebody lynch me already, the scum have this game sewn up. This is what I get when I try and be agressive.

Do it yourself if you want it to just happen. Otherwise defend yourself against everyone's accusations of you. There's always a chance you'll change someone's mind. Saying that you should be lynched so the scum can win is not pro-town behavior and will not cause anyone to change their mind.

[hasdgfas]

unvote

Lots of thinking done. Opie and Mc are both guilty. Let's get rid of one of them.

Vote: mcpaltp

Bookitty's post sealed it for me. I think you're just trying to play the sympathy card.

Anyone else notice that there were two hammers by Boggzie with very little reasoning? I'm not liking that.

[hasdgfas]

I wanted to say wow. I wasn't able to predict much of anything that happened in this game.

I have a few comments.
1) ThAdmiral: While I'm thankful that you protected me, I would like to know why you thought I was the most pro-town? It's hard to see these things yourself when you're the one playing, so for my future reference I want to know what you saw.
2) I thought there were many wonderful coincidences to help us out. Number one was ryan's dumb move. Number two was Adel coming in with her graphs and such. It was surprisingly easy to get her lynched since nobody thought her graphs helped. Then mcpaltp helped us on day 3 with his rather anti-town behavior. I thought everything that caused lynching was good play on the part of the town, but with this game's strangeness, that didn't end up helping.
3) My first thought for the kill night 3 was Bookitty, which would have prolonged the game. However, elias reminded me that this kill wasn't about who seemed most pro-town, but who was most definitely not the traitor.
4) Did either Elias or I have any votes placed on us after the "random" stage? I don't remember any.

If I have more thoughts, I'll post them, but I wanted to just state my initial post-game thoughts.

[hasdgfas]

I also wanted to ask SJ what his thoughts on the game were, if he was reading it after his death. It's always interesting to hear about people's thoughts who were out of the game for a while.

[hasdgfas]

Also, good modding and flavor Rishi, I quite enjoyed it.

[hasdgfas]

Yeah, I was in a rush before I had to leave for vacation and since elias hadn't said anything lately, I didn't have anything to say about him, and that would have been my recovery from that situation,

And I'm very sorry the town had to die in order to solve my self-esteem issues and allow me to feel accepted. But at least I lived happily ever after until Fat Tony shot me in a territory dispute one week after my induction into the mob.

LOL Bookitty, I love it.

Oh... and if you guys had killed Bookitty, I think you still would have won. Presumably, opie and ThAdmiral would have claimed to save themselves, but I think you could have gotten Boggzie lynched.

Yeah, I agree with this. The claim might have worked, but I probably would have countered opie's Mason claim, and seeing as how ThAdmiral felt sure enough about me to protect me twice, I don't know who would have been believed more.
Boggzie would have been an easy lynch though, I think. The ryan thing and then the two hammers would probably have made it not too hard to get him.