Mini 1787: Peruvian Nightclub Mafia (Game End!)


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Post Post #375 (ISO) » Wed Apr 27, 2016 1:40 pm

Post by Floof »

In post 375, Jake from State Farm wrote:
In post 373, Floof wrote:He was dodging the game and his only post was a vote on my town read. I think he was just following bandwagons at the time which is scummy. I am pretty confident he will flip scum at this point to be honest.

How could he be following bandwagons when he didn't really join a bandwagon?


The consensus at the time was Jake was scum/null I thought :?
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Post Post #376 (ISO) » Wed Apr 27, 2016 1:46 pm

Post by Zachstralkita »

LOOOL he said work on your reading comprehension you know, Dunn hold the L
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Post Post #377 (ISO) » Wed Apr 27, 2016 1:49 pm

Post by iraonavp »

In post 334, Keyser Söze wrote:
In post 333, iraonavp wrote:Keyser Söze has puked by far the most rhetoric and emotes at me, yet he is voting heuristically_alone. Why is this?

This is a strange reaction. Why can't I vote heuristically_alone? You keep looking inwardly (i.e how my vote on heuristically_alone affects other people's view of you - this is short-sighted) - my reads of players are based on individuals.


In post 257, iraonavp wrote:I expect you to vote me later.
In post 333, iraonavp wrote:Additionally, it may be because he wants to avoid OMGUS.

Please stop deflecting with your
'OMGUS-vote-for-me'
plea, it is poor play and defensive and tells me nothing but that you are uncomfortable with the spot light on you and extra-conscious of your wagon :shifty:
Please answer my earlier questions:
Spoiler:
In post 296, Keyser Söze wrote:
In post 262, iraonavp wrote:In all of Keyser Söze's posts, he is not suspecting anyone and constantly vacillating based on small things.

Do you want a reads-list? :giggle:

I have not listed my reads yet, but have expressed my reads, obviously not complete reads as this comes with time. I do suspect players (and have questioned them), but even if I did not have any scum-reads is that scum-indicative for early D1? I reject your abhorrent logic - please, tell me which items are "small" or big? In fact,
highlight all the "big things" on Day 1 so far
.

In post 262, iraonavp wrote:Most of his posts are barely coherent and
he is asking questions without answers
.

:lol:
Show me, me asking questions without answers?
No one
has refused to interact with me, and have gained information from those interactions.

Note repeated citation of things commonly considered as "scumtells", yet he never explicitly calls me scum-aligned.

I am accused by:
  • "a strange reaction"
  • "deflecting"
  • "defensive"
  • "uncomfortable with the spot light on you"
  • "extra-conscious of your wagon"


This is a scum-aligned response because it indicates that he is afraid to read me as scum-aligned.
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Post Post #378 (ISO) » Wed Apr 27, 2016 1:49 pm

Post by iraonavp »

In post 344, Tyler the Creator wrote:
In post 326, iraonavp wrote:
In post 300, Tyler the Creator wrote:ira, read on zach?
Town-aligned.
why?

I'm not sure. But that's what I think when I read his posts.
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Post Post #379 (ISO) » Wed Apr 27, 2016 1:54 pm

Post by iraonavp »

This is what I'm reading people at the moment.

  1. toolenduso
    - unsure
  2. heuristically_alone
    - town-aligned
  3. iraonavp
    - town-aligned
  4. Dunnstral
    - town-aligned
  5. Robert2424
    - unsure
  6. Bins
    - scum-aligned
  7. Zachstralkita
    - town-aligned
  8. Keyser Söze
    - scum-aligned
  9. xyzzy
    - unsure
  10. hobbez
    Floof
    - unsure
  11. Tyler the Creator
    - town-aligned
  12. Jaack
    - town-aligned
  13. Jake from State Farm
    - town-aligned
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Post Post #380 (ISO) » Wed Apr 27, 2016 1:55 pm

Post by iraonavp »

Keyser Söze's questions don't have answers, this is because he's scum-aligned.

His posts have excessive rhetoric and buzzwords which he hides behind.
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Post Post #381 (ISO) » Wed Apr 27, 2016 2:02 pm

Post by iraonavp »

In post 376, Floof wrote:
In post 375, Jake from State Farm wrote:
In post 373, Floof wrote:He was dodging the game and his only post was a vote on my town read. I think he was just following bandwagons at the time which is scummy. I am pretty confident he will flip scum at this point to be honest.

How could he be following bandwagons when he didn't really join a bandwagon?


The consensus at the time was Jake was scum/null I thought :?

Do you mean Zack?

What consensus?
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Post Post #382 (ISO) » Wed Apr 27, 2016 2:04 pm

Post by Zachstralkita »

Hey since I'm on the topic of comprehension, I'd like everyone to
comprehend
that my general and social ineptness is what makes me the easy lynch and scum will capitalize on this.

kthx
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Post Post #383 (ISO) » Wed Apr 27, 2016 2:05 pm

Post by Jake from State Farm »

In post 376, Floof wrote:
In post 375, Jake from State Farm wrote:
In post 373, Floof wrote:He was dodging the game and his only post was a vote on my town read. I think he was just following bandwagons at the time which is scummy. I am pretty confident he will flip scum at this point to be honest.

How could he be following bandwagons when he didn't really join a bandwagon?


The consensus at the time was Jake was scum/null I thought :?

I can't really remember but if he's not the largest vote getter there's no wagon. He only had 2 votes. If you are interested in opportunistic votes look at the ones piling on HA late.
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1. It's just a game, have fun.
2. Don't waste time on people who think you are scum. Ignore them and keep scum hunting.
3. Don't take everything so personal.
4. Tunneling sucks (unfortunately I can't seem to stop)
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Post Post #384 (ISO) » Wed Apr 27, 2016 2:15 pm

Post by iraonavp »

In post 373, Floof wrote:
In post 372, Dunnstral wrote:
In post 369, Floof wrote:I'd be willing to vote H_A or Iran I am going to wait though before I vote again.


But why are you willing to vote H_A?

Also Jake what do you think about H_A?


He was dodging the game and his only post was a vote on my town read. I think he was just following bandwagons at the time which is scummy. I am pretty confident he will flip scum at this point to be honest.

VOTE: H_A

You don't sound very confident.
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Post Post #385 (ISO) » Wed Apr 27, 2016 2:16 pm

Post by toolenduso »

Hi, I will post tomorrow probably but for now it is time for a birthday root beer float!
"Half of the game is figuring out who the scum is. The other half is convincing everyone else that you're right." -- PlaysWithSquirrels, in Newbie 437
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Post Post #386 (ISO) » Wed Apr 27, 2016 2:17 pm

Post by toolenduso »

*tomorrow morning probably
"Half of the game is figuring out who the scum is. The other half is convincing everyone else that you're right." -- PlaysWithSquirrels, in Newbie 437
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Post Post #387 (ISO) » Wed Apr 27, 2016 2:17 pm

Post by Zachstralkita »

In post 386, toolenduso wrote:Hi, I will post tomorrow probably but for now it is time for a birthday root beer float!



happy birthday PAL hope you have a good one
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Post Post #388 (ISO) » Wed Apr 27, 2016 2:38 pm

Post by Jake from State Farm »

In post 351, Jake from State Farm wrote:Ok there's no way you can say it and actually be expected to be taken seriously.

I'll do those things after I do the other thing first. I'll probably do it tonight.

Sons game started late and then went into sudden death after 5 OTs. Now I just want to watch survivor and go to bed. Tomorrow I'll do it.
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2. Don't waste time on people who think you are scum. Ignore them and keep scum hunting.
3. Don't take everything so personal.
4. Tunneling sucks (unfortunately I can't seem to stop)
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Post Post #389 (ISO) » Wed Apr 27, 2016 2:55 pm

Post by Floof »

Happy Birthday Toolenduso!
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Post Post #390 (ISO) » Wed Apr 27, 2016 3:15 pm

Post by Keyser Söze »

In post 378, iraonavp wrote:This is a scum-aligned response because it indicates that he is afraid to read me as scum-aligned.

Show me where I called you 'town aligned'. Show me where I called you 'scum aligned'.
Show me where I called anyone 'scum aligned'.
Show me where I called anyone 'town aligned'.

You are creating false scenarios.
My game is based on sorting players (no one is a closed case, but your recent chapters have been undeniably grotesque).
Image

You still haven't answered my questions
(post 296). Stop deflecting.

(1) show me (with quotes), evidence of me "not suspecting anyone".
(2) show me (with quotes), evidence of me "vacillating based on small things".
(3) show me (with quotes), evidence of me being "barely coherent"
(4) show me (with quotes), evidence that I am "asking questions without answers".



In post 380, iraonavp wrote:This is what I'm reading people at the moment.

  1. toolenduso
    - unsure
  2. heuristically_alone
    - town-aligned
  3. iraonavp
    - town-aligned
  4. Dunnstral
    - town-aligned
  5. Robert2424
    - unsure
  6. Bins
    - scum-aligned
  7. Zachstralkita
    - town-aligned
  8. Keyser Söze
    - scum-aligned
  9. xyzzy
    - unsure
  10. hobbez
    Floof
    - unsure
  11. Tyler the Creator
    - town-aligned
  12. Jaack
    - town-aligned
  13. Jake from State Farm
    - town-aligned

Wow, so this is what listing someone as "town-aligned" and "scum-aligned" looks like........ :facepalm:
IMO, it says nothing
.


As I said before:
In post 295, Keyser Söze wrote:
Show me something real and tangible.

Your list above of "scum-aligned"/"town-aligned" says f**k all. It achieves f**k all. Show me how you got to any of these reads.

Please support your accusations.


In post 381, iraonavp wrote:Keyser Söze's questions don't have answers, this is because he's scum-aligned.

I am asking questions, but you are the only player not answering them.

In post 381, iraonavp wrote:His posts have excessive rhetoric and buzzwords which he hides behind.

Again you're talking about yourself.
You
are the player posting unsupported accusations and unsupported "scum-aligned"/"town-aligned" labels.

I think this following post encapsulates you:
In post 154, iraonavp wrote:Why are you voting for me?

I am town-aligned.

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Post Post #391 (ISO) » Wed Apr 27, 2016 3:16 pm

Post by heuristically_alone »

In post 346, Keyser Söze wrote:
In post 330, heuristically_alone wrote:There is quite an objective difference to how mafia and town answer the question to be straight up asked if they are scum.

Town are statistically significantly more likely to just give a simple "no" answer. Scum usually give a more complicated answer or deflect with something. Zach kind of gave a combination of the two.

"statistically"? :giggle: Felt like a fruitless question/unproductive pressure to me - I can't see how you can read alignment in a response to that question.
Good questions = informative answers
.


When Robert ends up being scum, you will see I'm right. Lucky for you, now my top two suspects are Zach and Robert.

In post 331, Robert2424 wrote:
In post 265, heuristically_alone wrote:@Zach, are you mafia?

this is spam post at best? Really dude? At least I made it on your list though.


What an entrance to your final return to the game.
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Post Post #392 (ISO) » Wed Apr 27, 2016 3:20 pm

Post by xyzzy »

- I like this analysis of iraonavp, and this makes me feel better about Keyser and worse about ira; I don't agree with the assertion that Keyser hasn't made substantial contributions of information in his posts. I find the fact that he then votes for h_a weird, because between the two of them, ira is definitely the one producing more of the ideas that Keyser disagrees with. (I definitely don't feel as strongly about ira as Keyser does, btw--my feelings regarding ira are just very slightly worse than neutral)
- this explanation for your original vote for me is interesting, because I personally pretty much immediately had a strong sense of why you cast that vote, even before reading what anyone else or you had to say about it; was there any other specific reasoning you thought someone might give for your vote?
- "you're not explaining much. It's probably why people think you're scum. I get why a few think I'm mafia, but I'm going to collectively just say........ you're not right." - I can't imagine you don't see that the exact same is true of you, which implies that you're trying to deliberately look scummy; do you think that this benefits the town somehow?
- why do you believe Dunnstral was avoiding you?
- do you think there's not a big difference between just being wrong on day one and saying "if I'm wrong, lynch me" on day one?
- I like the logic you use here regarding why Bins might have feigned suspicion of Dunnstral as scum here; saying something really conditional and weak about someone's behavior and saying that it's scummy is definitely an effective way to express an opinion you know to be false without really having to commit to anything.
- "Town are statistically significantly more likely to just give a simple "no" answer. Scum usually give a more complicated answer or deflect with something. Zach kind of gave a combination of the two." - I agree with this.
- this is a really good point, because especially as the game progresses, staying under the radar and avoiding giving anyone any kind of read is a lot worse than giving a neutral read with a lot of info.
- this is a fair assessment of Keyser's vote on h_a. I'm not sure I agree with it, but if Keyser turned out to be scum, this logic would be reasonable evidence that ira is town.
- you continue to make bad posts with faulty logic and defend your choice to contribute as little as possible to this game.
- I've asked a fair number of questions directed at several players; I'm planning on reformatting my wall posts behind a spoiler in this format (with links and player names), so I'll be sure to directly highlight any questions I've asked when I do that.
- I feel like overall, h_a has made relatively few major contributions, but I feel good about the ones he's made; he makes it pretty clear that he leans toward you being town, and while I think basing a scum lean solely on the fact that someone is voting for someone you think is town is pretty flimsy, I don't think it's necessarily super telling. I think his small number of contributions is bad, so overall, I feel a little negative about h_a, but not super negative. and basically my vote on Zachstralkita is because he's specifically avoided making contributions to the game time and time again without any justifiable reason, and the few contributions he does make all end up using deeply flawed logic. I think he specifically tries to prevent information from flowing through his posts, stalling the game with nonsense. at least Jake (my #2 scum read) has the courtesy to come up with (bad) reasons for his lack of contribution.
- the idea that scum benefit from additional information more than town does is just blatantly incorrect.
- you're suggesting that there is a single unilateral method by which scum choose nightkills; there is not.
- I'm never a big fan of players having too many town reads; obviously, you should have some, but getting a town read on more than half the players is really hard to do unless you're scum (i.e., you know for a fact that those players are town).
- what do you think about me and my vote on you?
- which votes on h_a do you find opportunistic?

as I said, I'm going to repost my wallposts with better formatting (links to the posts in question and the names of the players whose posts I'm directing things at). I'll then have a separate thing where I divide these by player for easier reference and specifically highlight questions I've posed to each of those players.
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Post Post #393 (ISO) » Wed Apr 27, 2016 3:25 pm

Post by heuristically_alone »

In post 346, Keyser Söze wrote:In post 330, heuristically_alone wrote:Now that I have called you out a little on how you're posting, your posting has developed a little more and you are contributing info to the game.Please highlight the posts where you think I am now "contributing info".


You more than anyone has been fighting me back on my original read on you. It for that reason that you appear more scummy than when I had initially assessed you. Anyhow, it's not my job to tell you your most contributing posts.

Whoever people want to vote out first: Zach, Robert, or Keyser, I am more than happy with getting anyone one of those 3 out.
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Post Post #394 (ISO) » Wed Apr 27, 2016 3:38 pm

Post by Jake from State Farm »

@xyzz

Re:317- cause he was directly interacting with me and I was trying to get him to ask the right question and instead he changed his attention and never really talked to me again until after I made that comment. That to me seems like he decided to avoid me.

320 - I see no reason for any town to say "if I'm wrong lynch me" cause in this game town are wrong a lot. So yes there's a big difference and his comment was unnecessary and I've seen people write that off as a town tell before.

335-336 - those aren't bad posts with faulty logic. Try harder

Ignoring 359/361 cause it's not game related. My stance on list reads is one I've had way before this game and will continue way after this game (aka forever)

385 - definitely floof. He misrepresented ha's original vote and he is attacking him for voting his town read (pretty sure that's called something but can't remember what. Chainsaw maybe?) dunn's vote looks bad to me because he doesn't really give a reason. I don't really care if people don't give reasons but when that person took issue with me not giving one, to turn around and do the same thing himself is kind of scummy. It's also at this point that the HA wagon is starting to grow so yeah don't like those last 2 votes. But really I don't think anyone has made a good reason for their HA vote. Kaiser all but admitted he voted him because he made some points against keyser which just reeks of omgus (even though ha wasn't actually voting him at the time).
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Things I've learned.
1. It's just a game, have fun.
2. Don't waste time on people who think you are scum. Ignore them and keep scum hunting.
3. Don't take everything so personal.
4. Tunneling sucks (unfortunately I can't seem to stop)
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Post Post #395 (ISO) » Wed Apr 27, 2016 3:42 pm

Post by Jake from State Farm »

Btw Dunn leaves his scum read if bins and admits his vote was a bandwagon vote. That's basically admitting he's being opportunistic. A player should never leave their scum read just to bandwagon somebody else that you've never really given a read on (and I don't remember Dunn ever giving a read in ha)
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Things I've learned.
1. It's just a game, have fun.
2. Don't waste time on people who think you are scum. Ignore them and keep scum hunting.
3. Don't take everything so personal.
4. Tunneling sucks (unfortunately I can't seem to stop)
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Post Post #396 (ISO) » Wed Apr 27, 2016 4:16 pm

Post by xyzzy »

Spoiler: chronological version of all of my long posts
- basically my thoughts on the "this isn't an rvs vote" line are that they're either 1)a deliberate pattern that serves some purpose unknown to the rest of us or 2)a totally meaningless thing that has no intent behind it. the former seems like slight scum behavior whereas the latter would be very slight town behavior.
- I'm getting town vibes from this--not voting during RVS isn't inherently bad, and there's at least enough content to this post to generate discussion. doing things that generate discussion early on is good and pro-town, and that's what this post does.
- this is a good post and I feel good about iraonavp.
- I can't believe I misspelled "Dunnstral". anyway, this was basically an attempt to ask Dunnstral whether his posts had any specific meaning without going too far into detail about what things I think that meaning might be.
- I don't agree with the sentiment that someone's comfort level can function as a tell with any real level of precision; there are probably just as many people who do exactly the opposite as scum.
- this was me trying to ask the same question as #34 but in a more specific manner, seeking a specific answer.
- not directly answering a question like this feels like it could be a sign that you're trying to avoid any really specific discussion, which would be bad. on the other hand, the fact that your reply was just 3 minutes after my post is a good sign; that seems to point away from the idea that you might be acting super deliberately at this point. I think after giving it more thought I feel like this is probably a town read (although that's also influenced by stuff from later in the thread, I guess, but whatever)
- I don't like having a vote with the implication that there's meaning behind it without going into that reasoning at all; that said, Tyler's post #50 is substantial enough that I'm fine with the lowish level of detail here.
- this post says some worthwhile things, but I'm not sure how to feel about Keyser overall yet. also, nice gifs.
- this post is really incoherent, but that's my cat's fault for waking me up at 4:30 am.
- this is a good post and I trust Tyler so far.
- I don't particularly agree with you regarding your original vote, but I like the reasoning you give for it here.
- this is the first post from Zachstralkita that I think actually says anything significant; the rest of his posts before this one have a really low signal:noise ratio.
- why the unvote?
- I think I answered your question here substantially enough earlier in this post, so I'm just acknowledging your line of questioning here.
- you're one to talk; I'd say Dunnstral is one of the better players in this regard.
- why on earth would it
not
matter?
- what about voting the largest wagon do you find helpful? I don't necessarily disagree entirely, but it seems like something vastly more variable than that.
- I don't personally think there's any strong correlation in either direction between alignment and willingness to commit to an opinion early. (although now I'm contemplating whether it would be a valuable use of dozens of hours to look at a very large number of games to test this theory...)
- I definitely agree that this day is moving in an abnormal fashion; I'm curious how you believe this would likely affect most town players, since you offered an opinion on how that might change scum behavior.
- calling it an easy vote is probably fair. a big part of my voting for him was an effort to get him to actually talk--I agree, for instance, that his vote requires explanation that isn't there yet.
- this still isn't an explanation, and it's still not helpful to anyone; saying that we don't see it is pointless unless you're willing to explain precisely what it is you see, and repeating that you're confident isn't an explanation.
- like, what does this even mean? what are you talking about with Dunnstral's "aura"? this post isn't helpful to anyone.
- you backed off a lot in this post relative to how you were originally in #38; have your opinions about Dunnstral changed significantly?
- I'm pretty sure I'm the one who felt good about Tyler that you're asking about; basically, he's doing a good job analyzing a lot of players and saying useful things and feels very genuine. I felt like the "guess why I'm voting this way" in #46 wasn't that great (it's kind of a leading question that just gets other people to answer for your actions), but that's the only thing I've specifically disliked.
- why do you believe that you being lynched is more likely?
- I'm having a hard time reading Jaack; he asks a lot of useful questions, but I'm having a hard time deciding how I feel about him. I think his belief that one of me, toolenduso or Bins is scum is noteworthy.
- what lead to this vote? obviously I'm fine with votes on Zachstralkita, but this is still a post that's empty other than having a vote in it, which isn't great given how little you've said so far.
- whether that post was RVS or something serious is pretty much crucial to the entire conversation surrounding it; if it was, then interpreting it is an entirely different matter. you seem to think that it's irrelevant. I'm bothered by that.
- that's true, but you're suggesting that always voting the largest wagon during RVS is a good thing to do simply as policy. I'm questioning whether that can actually consistently provide useful data if people do it just because it's a good idea. I don't think it benefits anyone, and is probably even less beneficial if you explicitly announce it.
- this is almost completely devoid of content as an explanation, and I don't like it at all.
- concerning what I wrote about , I think this is a valid point; the fact that discussion was generated doesn't necessarily imply that Robert2424 wanted to generate it, and it's the sort of post where such a concern is valid.
- having a ton of town reads and not any really solid scum reads is a really good way to blend in and look helpful without really contributing much. granted, you kind of back off from this idea almost immediately, but it initially bothered me.
- I agree with this.
- I'm really curious why you have a town read on Zachstralkita. please elaborate.
- it's absolutely absurd that you of all people are questioning someone's vote on Zachstralkita.
- this is a bad post and you should feel bad. simply stating you have a read on someone and not offering any reasoning why is super scummy and unhelpful.
- "When I voted Zach nobody else was" this is just objectively false??? I voted for Zachstralkita well before you. as Dunnstral points out in , even if you had been the first to vote him, you certainly wouldn't have been the first to be suspicious of him.
- this is
exactly
what Dunnstral was doing; stop trying to act like it isn't.
- I don't agree with nearly any of the points this post makes, but I'm pleasantly surprised to see Zachstralkita actually contribute to the game this much.
- you're not under an
obligation
to do anything, but not explaining a vote isn't going to look good at this point regardless of the circumstances.
- Jake from State Farm is scum. I'm keeping my vote on Zachstralkita, because I think it does more good there, but if Jake ends up being lynched today, I'll be happy with that result. I'm not going to bother linking directly to 246 and 247 since they're directly after this one, but they're all terrible. your entire point seems to basically be "Dunnstral is asking me to explain my actions, and therefore Dunnstral is scum."
- "because I like being difficult" is obscenely unhelpful and anti-town; if you want to benefit the town, you should be contributing more information, not deliberately obfuscating it. and stop pretending like posts 169 and 201 contributed anything meaningful. they did not. and the entire notion that people should simply remain silent until someone asks them to contribute is total nonsense. this is a fascinatingly terrible post and your obsession with proving that Dunnstral is a terrible, terrible liar is only making yourself look worse.
- I agree with this; if you agree with the reasoning for a wagon, not joining it solely because of the other people (besides the person whose argument you agree with) on it doesn't really make sense.
- I'd like to know why you made this post. I have my own thoughts regarding it (and regarding Zachstralkita's response to it, which I wasn't a huge fan of), but I'm curious about your goals with it.
- I know this isn't meant to be a super strong point, but I doubt that this is relevant given that Floof had just replaced in; it's entirely possible that they're scum together and Bins hadn't yet looked at their day talk thread.
I don't like how seriously you reacted to this question. I know being useless and uninformative is kind of your schtick in this game, but to stop doing so for a post like this doesn't indicate good things.
- you 4 hours earlier: "Town should only concern themselves with stating who they think are scum" -- why would you even bother telling us when you like a post someone's made if that's your philosophy?
- this would be all well and good were it not for the fact that you've still not explained in precise detail why you voted for Zachstralkita.
- as I noted in 188, I didn't actually know that the "post" tag existed; while I prefer not to quote posts for more than a few posts (because it's really easy to screw up those tags), I would've formatted #89 in a more readable format if I had been familiar with a way to. also, which question in are you referring to?
- I like this analysis of iraonavp, and this makes me feel better about Keyser and worse about ira; I don't agree with the assertion that Keyser hasn't made substantial contributions of information in his posts. I find the fact that he then votes for h_a weird, because between the two of them, ira is definitely the one producing more of the ideas that Keyser disagrees with. (I definitely don't feel as strongly about ira as Keyser does, btw--my feelings regarding ira are just very slightly worse than neutral)
- this explanation for your original vote for me is interesting, because I personally pretty much immediately had a strong sense of why you cast that vote, even before reading what anyone else or you had to say about it; was there any other specific reasoning you thought someone might give for your vote?
- "you're not explaining much. It's probably why people think you're scum. I get why a few think I'm mafia, but I'm going to collectively just say........ you're not right." - I can't imagine you don't see that the exact same is true of you, which implies that you're trying to deliberately look scummy; do you think that this benefits the town somehow?
- why do you believe Dunnstral was avoiding you?
- do you think there's not a big difference between just being wrong on day one and saying "if I'm wrong, lynch me" on day one?
- I like the logic you use here regarding why Bins might have feigned suspicion of Dunnstral as scum here; saying something really conditional and weak about someone's behavior and saying that it's scummy is definitely an effective way to express an opinion you know to be false without really having to commit to anything.
- "Town are statistically significantly more likely to just give a simple "no" answer. Scum usually give a more complicated answer or deflect with something. Zach kind of gave a combination of the two." - I agree with this.
- this is a really good point, because especially as the game progresses, staying under the radar and avoiding giving anyone any kind of read is a lot worse than giving a neutral read with a lot of info.
- this is a fair assessment of Keyser's vote on h_a. I'm not sure I agree with it, but if Keyser turned out to be scum, this logic would be reasonable evidence that ira is town.
- you continue to make bad posts with faulty logic and defend your choice to contribute as little as possible to this game.
- I've asked a fair number of questions directed at several players; I'm planning on reformatting my wall posts behind a spoiler in this format (with links and player names), so I'll be sure to directly highlight any questions I've asked when I do that.
- I feel like overall, h_a has made relatively few major contributions, but I feel good about the ones he's made; he makes it pretty clear that he leans toward you being town, and while I think basing a scum lean solely on the fact that someone is voting for someone you think is town is pretty flimsy, I don't think it's necessarily super telling. I think his small number of contributions is bad, so overall, I feel a little negative about h_a, but not super negative. and basically my vote on Zachstralkita is because he's specifically avoided making contributions to the game time and time again without any justifiable reason, and the few contributions he does make all end up using deeply flawed logic. I think he specifically tries to prevent information from flowing through his posts, stalling the game with nonsense. at least Jake (my #2 scum read) has the courtesy to come up with (bad) reasons for his lack of contribution.
- the idea that scum benefit from additional information more than town does is just blatantly incorrect.
- you're suggesting that there is a single unilateral method by which scum choose nightkills; there is not.
- I'm never a big fan of players having too many town reads; obviously, you should have some, but getting a town read on more than half the players is really hard to do unless you're scum (i.e., you know for a fact that those players are town).
- what do you think about me and my vote on you?
- which votes on h_a do you find opportunistic?


I've put a handful of things I'd like specific responses to in boldface below:

Spoiler: version divided by player
Bins:
- I don't agree with the sentiment that someone's comfort level can function as a tell with any real level of precision; there are probably just as many people who do exactly the opposite as scum.
- you backed off a lot in this post relative to how you were originally in #38; have your opinions about Dunnstral changed significantly?
- I'm pretty sure I'm the one who felt good about Tyler that you're asking about; basically, he's doing a good job analyzing a lot of players and saying useful things and feels very genuine. I felt like the "guess why I'm voting this way" in #46 wasn't that great (it's kind of a leading question that just gets other people to answer for your actions), but that's the only thing I've specifically disliked.
- having a ton of town reads and not any really solid scum reads is a really good way to blend in and look helpful without really contributing much. granted, you kind of back off from this idea almost immediately, but it initially bothered me.

Dunnstral:
- basically my thoughts on the "this isn't an rvs vote" line are that they're either 1)a deliberate pattern that serves some purpose unknown to the rest of us or 2)a totally meaningless thing that has no intent behind it. the former seems like slight scum behavior whereas the latter would be very slight town behavior.
- not directly answering a question like this feels like it could be a sign that you're trying to avoid any really specific discussion, which would be bad. on the other hand, the fact that your reply was just 3 minutes after my post is a good sign; that seems to point away from the idea that you might be acting super deliberately at this point. I think after giving it more thought I feel like this is probably a town read (although that's also influenced by stuff from later in the thread, I guess, but whatever)
- I don't personally think there's any strong correlation in either direction between alignment and willingness to commit to an opinion early. (although now I'm contemplating whether it would be a valuable use of dozens of hours to look at a very large number of games to test this theory...)
- this is a really good point, because especially as the game progresses, staying under the radar and avoiding giving anyone any kind of read is a lot worse than giving a neutral read with a lot of info.

Floof:
-
I'm really curious why you have a town read on Zachstralkita. please elaborate.


heuristically_alone:
- I'd like to know why you made this post. I have my own thoughts regarding it (and regarding Zachstralkita's response to it, which I wasn't a huge fan of), but I'm curious about your goals with it.
- I know this isn't meant to be a super strong point, but I doubt that this is relevant given that Floof had just replaced in; it's entirely possible that they're scum together and Bins hadn't yet looked at their day talk thread.
- "Town are statistically significantly more likely to just give a simple "no" answer. Scum usually give a more complicated answer or deflect with something. Zach kind of gave a combination of the two." - I agree with this.

iraonavp:
- this is a good post and I feel good about iraonavp.
- why on earth would it
not
matter?
- what about voting the largest wagon do you find helpful? I don't necessarily disagree entirely, but it seems like something vastly more variable than that.
- whether that post was RVS or something serious is pretty much crucial to the entire conversation surrounding it; if it was, then interpreting it is an entirely different matter. you seem to think that it's irrelevant. I'm bothered by that.
- that's true, but you're suggesting that always voting the largest wagon during RVS is a good thing to do simply as policy. I'm questioning whether that can actually consistently provide useful data if people do it just because it's a good idea. I don't think it benefits anyone, and is probably even less beneficial if you explicitly announce it.
- I agree with this; if you agree with the reasoning for a wagon, not joining it solely because of the other people (besides the person whose argument you agree with) on it doesn't really make sense.
- I like the logic you use here regarding why Bins might have feigned suspicion of Dunnstral as scum here; saying something really conditional and weak about someone's behavior and saying that it's scummy is definitely an effective way to express an opinion you know to be false without really having to commit to anything.
- this is a fair assessment of Keyser's vote on h_a. I'm not sure I agree with it, but if Keyser turned out to be scum, this logic would be reasonable evidence that ira is town.
-
I'm never a big fan of players having too many town reads; obviously, you should have some, but getting a town read on more than half the players is really hard to do unless you're scum (i.e., you know for a fact that those players are town).


Jaack:
- I don't particularly agree with you regarding your original vote, but I like the reasoning you give for it here.
- I feel like overall, h_a has made relatively few major contributions, but I feel good about the ones he's made; he makes it pretty clear that he leans toward you being town, and while I think basing a scum lean solely on the fact that someone is voting for someone you think is town is pretty flimsy, I don't think it's necessarily super telling. I think his small number of contributions is bad, so overall, I feel a little negative about h_a, but not super negative. and basically my vote on Zachstralkita is because he's specifically avoided making contributions to the game time and time again without any justifiable reason, and the few contributions he does make all end up using deeply flawed logic. I think he specifically tries to prevent information from flowing through his posts, stalling the game with nonsense. at least Jake (my #2 scum read) has the courtesy to come up with (bad) reasons for his lack of contribution.

Jake from State Farm:
- what lead to this vote? obviously I'm fine with votes on Zachstralkita, but this is still a post that's empty other than having a vote in it, which isn't great given how little you've said so far.
- this is almost completely devoid of content as an explanation, and I don't like it at all.
- it's absolutely absurd that you of all people are questioning someone's vote on Zachstralkita.
- this is a bad post and you should feel bad. simply stating you have a read on someone and not offering any reasoning why is super scummy and unhelpful.
- "When I voted Zach nobody else was"
this is just objectively false??? I voted for Zachstralkita well before you. as Dunnstral points out in , even if you had been the first to vote him, you certainly wouldn't have been the first to be suspicious of him.

- this is
exactly
what Dunnstral was doing; stop trying to act like it isn't.
- you're not under an
obligation
to do anything, but not explaining a vote isn't going to look good at this point regardless of the circumstances.
- Jake from State Farm is scum. I'm keeping my vote on Zachstralkita, because I think it does more good there, but if Jake ends up being lynched today, I'll be happy with that result. I'm not going to bother linking directly to 246 and 247 since they're directly after this one, but they're all terrible. your entire point seems to basically be "Dunnstral is asking me to explain my actions, and therefore Dunnstral is scum."
- "because I like being difficult" is obscenely unhelpful and anti-town; if you want to benefit the town, you should be contributing more information, not deliberately obfuscating it. and stop pretending like posts 169 and 201 contributed anything meaningful. they did not. and the entire notion that people should simply remain silent until someone asks them to contribute is total nonsense. this is a fascinatingly terrible post and your obsession with proving that Dunnstral is a terrible, terrible liar is only making yourself look worse.
- you 4 hours earlier: "Town should only concern themselves with stating who they think are scum" --
why would you even bother telling us when you like a post someone's made if that's your philosophy?

- this would be all well and good were it not for the fact that you've still not explained in precise detail why you voted for Zachstralkita.
- why do you believe Dunnstral was avoiding you?
- do you think there's not a big difference between just being wrong on day one and saying "if I'm wrong, lynch me" on day one?
- you continue to make bad posts with faulty logic and defend your choice to contribute as little as possible to this game.
- the idea that scum benefit from additional information more than town does is just blatantly incorrect.
- you're suggesting that there is a single unilateral method by which scum choose nightkills; there is not.
- which votes on h_a do you find opportunistic?

Keyser Söze:
- this post says some worthwhile things, but I'm not sure how to feel about Keyser overall yet. also, nice gifs.
- I think I answered your question here substantially enough earlier in this post, so I'm just acknowledging your line of questioning here.
- concerning what I wrote about , I think this is a valid point; the fact that discussion was generated doesn't necessarily imply that Robert2424 wanted to generate it, and it's the sort of post where such a concern is valid.
- I agree with this.
- I like this analysis of iraonavp, and this makes me feel better about Keyser and worse about ira; I don't agree with the assertion that Keyser hasn't made substantial contributions of information in his posts. I find the fact that he then votes for h_a weird, because between the two of them, ira is definitely the one producing more of the ideas that Keyser disagrees with. (I definitely don't feel as strongly about ira as Keyser does, btw--my feelings regarding ira are just very slightly worse than neutral)
- I've asked a fair number of questions directed at several players; I'm planning on reformatting my wall posts behind a spoiler in this format (with links and player names), so I'll be sure to directly highlight any questions I've asked when I do that.

Robert:
- I'm getting town vibes from this--not voting during RVS isn't inherently bad, and there's at least enough content to this post to generate discussion. doing things that generate discussion early on is good and pro-town, and that's what this post does.

toolenduso:
- I definitely agree that this day is moving in an abnormal fashion; I'm curious how you believe this would likely affect most town players, since you offered an opinion on how that might change scum behavior.
- calling it an easy vote is probably fair. a big part of my voting for him was an effort to get him to actually talk--I agree, for instance, that his vote requires explanation that isn't there yet.
- I'm having a hard time reading Jaack; he asks a lot of useful questions, but I'm having a hard time deciding how I feel about him. I think his belief that one of me, toolenduso or Bins is scum is noteworthy.
- as I noted in 188, I didn't actually know that the "post" tag existed; while I prefer not to quote posts for more than a few posts (because it's really easy to screw up those tags), I would've formatted #89 in a more readable format if I had been familiar with a way to.
also, which question in are you referring to?


Tyler the Creator:
- I don't like having a vote with the implication that there's meaning behind it without going into that reasoning at all; that said, Tyler's post #50 is substantial enough that I'm fine with the lowish level of detail here.
- this is a good post and I trust Tyler so far.
- this explanation for your original vote for me is interesting, because I personally pretty much immediately had a strong sense of why you cast that vote, even before reading what anyone else or you had to say about it; was there any other specific reasoning you thought someone might give for your vote?

Zachstralkita:
- this is the first post from Zachstralkita that I think actually says anything significant; the rest of his posts before this one have a really low signal:noise ratio.
- why the unvote?
- you're one to talk; I'd say Dunnstral is one of the better players in this regard.
- this still isn't an explanation, and it's still not helpful to anyone; saying that we don't see it is pointless unless you're willing to explain precisely what it is you see, and repeating that you're confident isn't an explanation.
- like, what does this even mean? what are you talking about with Dunnstral's "aura"? this post isn't helpful to anyone.
-
why do you believe that you being lynched is more likely?

- I don't agree with nearly any of the points this post makes, but I'm pleasantly surprised to see Zachstralkita actually contribute to the game this much.
I don't like how seriously you reacted to this question. I know being useless and uninformative is kind of your schtick in this game, but to stop doing so for a post like this doesn't indicate good things.
- "you're not explaining much. It's probably why people think you're scum. I get why a few think I'm mafia, but I'm going to collectively just say........ you're not right." -
I can't imagine you don't see that the exact same is true of you, which implies that you're trying to deliberately look scummy; do you think that this benefits the town somehow?

-
what do you think about me and my vote on you
?
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Jake from State Farm
Jake from State Farm
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Jake from State Farm
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Post Post #397 (ISO) » Wed Apr 27, 2016 4:33 pm

Post by Jake from State Farm »

@xxyy

First, wow that's a lot of work.
Second here's my responses.

169- see this post - http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p7872874
201 - good thing I'm not posting to appease you. Don't really care what you or anyone else likes
229 - try again. I wasn't questioning the vote on zack. I was questioning the town read of Zach.
233 - this is an awesome post. Clearly you have poor judgement
235 - my apologies you were voting him but my point still stands. It wasn't a bandwagon vote.
241 - you clearly don't get what I was trying to do. Simpleton
243 - haven't you figured it out already simpleton? I'm not worried about how I look. Only scum have to worry about appearance. I just have to go out and play my game.
245 - sorry simpleton but I'm totally town. Being abrasive and hard headed isn't scummy let alone a scum tell so try again.
255 - first, I'm not required to be "helpful". Sure it's preferred but not required. Second, I'm not playing anti-town. Just cause you don't understand the concept of reaction testing that's not my issue simpleton. Learn to play more mafia games before you act like you know what you are talking about.
276 - just cause town should only concern themselves with finding scum doesn't mean they aren't allowed to comment on other things. Cmon bro. :facepalm:

The rest are already answerd.

Good night.
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Things I've learned.
1. It's just a game, have fun.
2. Don't waste time on people who think you are scum. Ignore them and keep scum hunting.
3. Don't take everything so personal.
4. Tunneling sucks (unfortunately I can't seem to stop)
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Jake from State Farm
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Post Post #398 (ISO) » Wed Apr 27, 2016 4:36 pm

Post by Jake from State Farm »

Omg you have been here since 2007 and you haven't figured out my m.o. Yet? Fuck I played a newbie game once with a brand new player who was able to piece together the method of my madness and you have been here since 2007? :facepalm:
Show
Things I've learned.
1. It's just a game, have fun.
2. Don't waste time on people who think you are scum. Ignore them and keep scum hunting.
3. Don't take everything so personal.
4. Tunneling sucks (unfortunately I can't seem to stop)
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xyzzy
xyzzy
they/them
comical third option
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Post Post #399 (ISO) » Wed Apr 27, 2016 5:44 pm

Post by xyzzy »

until 15 days ago, the last time I had been on this website for more than like a week was December 2008 (I thought it had been 2010, but I just checked since it's relevant; additionally I posted in a couple of threads back in 2012, but didn't play any games back then), so the fact that I have a registration date of 2007 isn't remotely relevant.

I misread 229; other than that, as far as I can tell, your entire thing is being belligerent and doing as little as possible to directly contribute to the game as possible, all while occasionally contradicting yourself and telling anyone who disagrees with you that they're stupid. I think that, in the context of how you're acting in this particular game, that you're scum.
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