Mini 1783: GTA 2 Mafia (GaME OVAH)

[Dragon Knight]

Sorry mod, I'm gonna snag this pagetop

[Ranger]

You had 48 posts because we killed you N1. XP

You had significantly less in Machina, because you were in a hydra.

Every post in the hydra of Machinca Mafia was me except 225, 226, 227, 228, 229, 230, 233, and 234.

Every single one of them. That means of 74 posts, 66 were mine. I was lynched D1. As in, out of the game before D2.

In Metal Gear Solid, I had 41 posts. I was nightkilled N1. As in, out of the game before D2.

The two are identical.

Activity cannot be used to read me.

Why is he town in your reads Ranger? I don't think you've given a reason for that and I don't see any possible one. So please, do elaborate on this.

One read at a time, geez. I just got done with work; I'll get to them as I can.

Ranger, do you like playing scum and if yes, would you consider yourself prone to taking risks?

I absolutely

loathe

playing scum. I hate betraying people, I hate the faking, I hate the lies, I hate how I can even hurt people with my words as scum in ways that I don't when I'm town, and I hate how weak my scum game is compared to my town game. It's not a pleasant experience at all. I also absolutely do not take risks as scum. I always play it safe. My definition of "safe" may differ from yours, but I don't play boldly. Why place myself under that unnecessary risk?

I'll get to the MoI stuff in a separate post. (Well, posts.)

[Ranger]

Oh, so it is a playstyle tell that happens to be relevant across any player universally.

A particular playstyle tell, yes, absent from those same player's town games yet present in their scum games.

Everyone has a role. You’ve just outed you aren’t super strong roles like Cop / Vig / Etc by your own admission.

And this is why you are scum.

Watcher is near-universally considered one of the strongest town roles in existence.

It is both investigative

and

protective, because its existence limits scum's actions in a manner similar to how a doctor would. You're experienced enough and well-versed enough in mafia theory to know this.

So I repeat. Or, can even quote another asking the same thing.

We've collectively decided to give a pass to a scummier player, one who's scummy because of things he has actually done and said, who claimed after being put at L-1, which gave him an actual motive to claim. A player who claimed cop with an implicit twist, which gives him room to wiggle tomorrow. But, ok, everyone is willing to take this risk, and so are we. Now why aren't you willing to take the same risk (I'd even say, a smaller risk) with a player whose biggest faults are basically not playing and only showing up to defend herself and claim unprompted?

How is ranger's lynch acceptable but DK's isn't, taking not just their claims, but their play in consideration?

There literally is none.

You are reading through the thread and seeing multiple players call out your slot for being meta lurking scum and it doesn’t trigger at all that there may be a scum hiding inside there?

There was no votecount. There wasn't even an unofficial votecount as far as I can tell. People noted there was a wagon, but I don't remember seeing any player tally them to a wagon. And if I don't see a votecount of all the players on...then I don't know what the wagon was like. That simple. I know there was a wagon. I know the players I townread, and held no issue with what they were doing. If that really was all there was to the Jeanne wagon, then yes, I have no issue with it. But I don't know because it wasn't something tangible. It popped up and disappeared before anybody bothered to note who was there. As-is, I'm taking your word for it, that it was all townreads of mine on there. I'd have to go back and check myself to confirm. Because I don't know. Thanks to it, you know. Not having been tallied.

On the other hand it is a very strong Scum role since its purpose is to ferret out Town Power Roles like Cop / Vig since scum with the Watcher have to make much fewer assessments and reads in deciding who to watch.

Watcher is useless to the scum. What are they going to catch? Their own nightkill? A doctor if their nightkill fails? A bodyguard? A roleblocker on them if they watch one of their own? A serial killer if they watch one of their own? There are better roles for that, e.g. Tracker, Rolecop, Rolecop variants (Neapolitan, Vanilla Cop). Watcher is an automatic nightkill to scum unless they have a method of bypassing. Admittedly a few exist: ninja, roleblocker/jk, and a redirector. (NOT, however, a busdriver, because the busdriver would be caught red-handed making the switch.) However, those roles exist for the same reason so many counters (e.g. Godfather, roleblocker/JK, redirector, busdriver, ascetic) exist for a cop:

because Watchers are strong town roles

.

So the argument "watchers are weak for town but good for scum" is exactly backwards from what any experienced player

should

be advocating.

[Ranger]

For proof, see this thread.

That would be the Tracker counterpart. Ninjas are still workable with Watchers.

^"Ninjas exist as a counter to watchers, trackers are an unfortunate casualty of this".

The thing with ninjas is that they're also the best (normal) answer to watchers. It's dumb that that's bundled up with tracker immunity, especially when trackers are so much weaker than cops in the first place, but there aren't any roles that only cover one and not the other.

^Same thing.

Obviously, we can't start a thread about it in the middle of the game, but were we to, Watcher would likely be in the top-five list of "strongest common town roles". Where would be debated, but its presence would be assured. This is not an isolated opinion. It is common knowledge. Everyone knows about it. In fact, quoteth our wiki,

Because it is easier to choose who is likely to be targeted by scum at Night than it is to determine who performs the scum kill, Watcher is considerably more powerful than Tracker. In addition, because having the name of a scum to lynch is better than having someone confirmed Town due to being targeted by the Mafia kill, Watcher is more powerful than Doctor. Last, because the meta is such that Cops and Trackers are more anticipated power roles than Watchers, Watcher has been considered more "cheap" than both of them. As a result, Watcher is a particularly strong power role with negative connotations associated with it.

It's considered

stronger than a doctor

.

MagnaofIllusion knows this.

[Ranger]

I would also like to point out that, in a

role madness game

, a watcher is

almost guaranteed

to receive useful information.

Short of being roleblocked, they will

always

receive information. Target someone who cannot be targeted? (Commuter, Hider, Ascetic?) Confirms their claim of not being able to be targeted. Get redirected? Still potentially end up with a result, which can potentially be confirmed.

Admittedly with this being a role madness game and a near-certain town cop, having a scum blocking role is practically guaranteed so we should lynch scum today and hopefully eliminate it (because while they're likely to have one, they're incredibly unlikely to have two), but the point holds.

[The Banterlords]

I refuse to contemplate the possibility of ranger being scum until much later in the game. ^-^
~Dwlee

[Ranger]

Speaking of roleblocks, looking at the wording behind my PM, it's possible I can't be. (Same for redirectors.)

I don't know that for sure, but it'd sure be a nice bonus if true.

[Ranger]

(The reason is because I'm not actually a person. I'm not even a single thing. I'm the sewers. As in, all of them. It'd be hard to stop or mislead those, and text in my PM makes that possible, but it's not explicit one way or another.)

[Dragon Knight]

I refuse to contemplate the possibility of ranger being scum until much later in the game. ^-^
~Dwlee

And that's why she doesn't get lynched at all in her scum games.

-FB

Machina is obviously an exception because it was a hydra and stuff.

[FA_Q2]

OK, I'm caught up.

Jeanne watches DK and that way we get at least one cop result. No point lynching either of them Today.

This should be today's lynch though;

VOTE: FA

I like this plan, and I'm fine with the FAQ lynch. His ISO shows him voting BBT for the last week, while attempting to cast suspicion on almost everyone he interacts with, instead of actually pushing for BBT's lynch.

-Xk

I have pushed him and BBT has completely ignored anything I have said. Town is just letting him lurk his ass right out of it. Why should I bother then?

[FA_Q2]

And no, you don't fucking get a choice in who you investigate. I propose we also take a vote on that one.

Bearbert

No, no and fuck no.

This is asinine in the extreme. By telling scum who a cop is targeting you give them information that they need to decide in order to plan their actions.

We have 2 options, if you think DK is scum then you lynch it. If you think DK is town then they direct their power where they see fit. Chaining a PR is simply giving scum all the power over it.

[Ranger]

And that's why she doesn't get lynched at all in her scum games.

Except...of my ten scum games, I've been lynched in four of them.

And of the remaining...one was a marathon (so, not a serious game), one a newbie (so, not a normal playing experience), one was multiball (so, not my normal scumplay given I could legitimately scumhunt), and one a scum-sided setup blitz (so, it made sense not to die). That leaves only Blitz 1 and Blitz 25 as games where there's no explanation for why I wasn't lynched.

[The Banterlords]

I refuse to contemplate the possibility of ranger being scum until much later in the game. ^-^
~Dwlee

And that's why she doesn't get lynched at all in her scum games.

-FB

Machina is obviously an exception because it was a hydra and stuff.

I can't elaborate but your 'meta reads' are p bad.
~Dwlee

[Dragon Knight]

I will not stop pushing your lynch, and even if it doesn't happen, you're going to get lynched tomorrow, I garruntee it.

PEdit: This is D1 on a slot that's been subbed. It's only meta.

[The Banterlords]

I am saying that your meta read on jeanne was bad, I don't know anything about ranger's meta but I'm p sure they've refuted your meta points.
~Dwlee

[Ranger]

For A Real Scourge: to start with, we get the dissonance in her opener, between 33 and 34. 33 is either saying PhantomCobalt is a good wagon (possible, but I think it was the other), or agreeing with PhantomCobalt that TheDominator is a good wagon. (The context is slightly ambiguous, but this is what it looked like.) Yet, in spite of this, Scourge decides to vote...The Banterlords, for no reason at all.

If you think that 51 serves as an explanation...it doesn't. The unvote on BlackStar came

after

Scourge's entrance into the game, but Scourge did not indicate the vote's reason at all. 58 is opportunistic with regards to the ascetic claim, hopping onto the bandwagon of doubting it.

BlackStar is definitely town! and Magna is weirdly aggressive about every point he makes. not sure on alignment yet.

This relies on at least one of {MagnaofIllusion, BlackStar} being scum, but this line stuck out to me, big time.

also, you guys have gotta get into the habit of trimming down large quotes when you're only responding to one little thing in them! this thread is ugly. :P

The enthusiasm here also felt fake.

244 is saying PhantomCobalt's BBT reasoning is bad, but it makes no commentary on PhantomCobalt himself: is she townreading him and thinking he's just being bad? Scumreading him for the post? She doesn't say. The immediate flop in reads in 245 was also terrible. Not only does she flip, she still tries to fence-sit in spite of the switch.

253 is a vital one: she supports the Jeanne wagon

but does

not

join it

. This, I find FAR more suspicious than any Jeanne vote would have been. 356 is even worse. Note that, as of then, her vote has yet to move from Banters. While she

does

follow it with an unvote...she doesn't vote for anyone. At all. In spite of allegedly having scumreads and having a few nice wagons available to join. This continues in 401: she had my slot as a scumread. Why not vote it?

It's a lot of saying stuff without actually doing stuff. She isn't accomplishing anything with her posting. It's just...

there

.

[BlackStar]

UNVOTE:

[Ranger]

For BlueBloodedToffee, I instantly loved 17, especially after 10. 10 was an okay RVS. Him seeing BlackStar's posting (which was bad) and switching his vote there resonated with my own thoughts at the time. I have no problems with any of his posting, and there are little indicators here and there that make me think town, too, e.g. the push onto BlackStar in 35, 39, 117's content feeling good, the boldness of 127 ("don't like it? Vote me"), 134, 255 (what makes this different from ARS? Because BBT

had reason to wait

, namely, wanting to get caught up; that same excuse cannot be given for A Real Scourge), 373, 380.

It's just...lots of small stuff here and there which makes me think he's not scum.

[A Real Scourge]

Ranger's hit the nail on the head with my being a bit disengaged rn. btw i've only read this page 23, not the ones before it.
but i don't appreciate it when my tone is called fake! it's happened in two games before this one and it's just a bit unnecessary. i've definitely not been as engaged or helpful as i should or want to be, but why are people always picking at my tone? i used exclamation marks! it's just a thing i do. even when i'm annoyed at the game. and i stand by what i said too, this thread

is

kinda ugly, what with the hydras quoting themselves to sign and the one-line responses to large quote trains. that you included that in your otherwise fine case is annoying me.

also i don't really see your BBT case as being particularly alignment indicative... only the parts regarding his voting patterns really have any meat to them. not really onboard with BBT scum so it's fine tho.

i'm regretting not voting jeanne, tho. could have avoided this. i didn't really think about it, i don't feel attached to mafia rn.

[A Real Scourge]

i'm going to bed. i hope i feel up to not being a lazy sack in the morning!

oh, Ranger, a lot of your read on BBT has to do with how he feels about BlackStar. what if BlackStar is town? that's the impression i got and

still

the impression i'm getting. or, was getting, since i'm not caught up from yesterday. but yeah.

[Polar Vortex]

And no, you don't fucking get a choice in who you investigate. I propose we also take a vote on that one.

Bearbert

No, no and fuck no.

This is asinine in the extreme. By telling scum who a cop is targeting you give them information that they need to decide in order to plan their actions.

We have 2 options, if you think DK is scum then you lynch it. If you think DK is town then they direct their power where they see fit. Chaining a PR is simply giving scum all the power over it.

Think about it like this. We tell DK to investigate Dom. They can't kill DK because Ranger is watching him. So if Dom is scum he can't do anything if he doesn't have a godfather role. If he's town, we either get an innocent investigation or we force scum to kill him. Either way we win. What's wrong with this plan?


Bear

[Polar Vortex]

And no, you don't fucking get a choice in who you investigate. I propose we also take a vote on that one.

Bearbert

No, no and fuck no.

This is asinine in the extreme. By telling scum who a cop is targeting you give them information that they need to decide in order to plan their actions.

We have 2 options, if you think DK is scum then you lynch it. If you think DK is town then they direct their power where they see fit. Chaining a PR is simply giving scum all the power over it.

I'm willing to lynch BBT as a compromise. Would prefer Dom/Scrouge. What do you think of those 2?

Bear

[shos]

Ircher

replaces PhantomCobalt effective immediately.

Thanks!

[Dragon Knight]

Who the heck is Ircher.

[TheDominator37]

Who the heck is Ircher.

My alt