Mini 1783: GTA 2 Mafia (GaME OVAH)

[Ranger]

Oh boy! Another person I can definitively read.

Not sure if sarcasm, or just Firebringer.

(<3 DS.)

[Ranger]

Hi Ranger! Did you replace into a town-slot? I hope you did.

Very much so, yes. Of course, my role happens to be ill-suited for my slot (it's not a role which meshes well with my typical play), but I would prefer not being forced to claim all the same.

Btw, from what I've seen so far: I've picked up that apparently, BlackStar is a tracker.

I believe the role. I don't believe he's town.

[Ranger]

{TheDominator, The Banterlords, BlueBloodedToffee}
{Dragon Knight, Code of Honor, PhantomCobalt}
{BlackStar}

One.

VOTE: BlackStar.

[Ranger]

Btw, from what I've seen so far: I've picked up that apparently, BlackStar is a tracker.

This was a mistake. Masquerade said Dragon Knight was voting a tracker claim, and I was under the mistaken impression they were voting BlackStar, ergo, BlackStar = tracker.

Apparently, my role was already outed. Watcher, not tracker. It's a very bad fit for me because I'm typically the one who needs to be watched.

Two being shos replaces Jeanne with Ranger.

Apparently, shos was hasty with my replacement. I specifically looked at the playerlist and saw your name in it and

told

shos when I made the request to replace in that my replace-in was conditional on you being okay with it, and that if you weren't, that I couldn't.

So if you want to leave because of me: don't. Ask the mod to have me leave instead. Until then, I'll be trying to get some content for the slot other than the claim.

[Ranger]

{TheDominator, The Banterlords, BlueBloodedToffee}
{FA_Q2}
{Dragon Knight, Code of Honor, A Real Scourge}
{PhantomCobalt}
{BlackStar}

Two.

[Ranger]

Can I explain, yes.

Will I, only conditional on, one, me staying, and two, me getting fully caught up.
Neither condition is, as of right now, certain.

And I'm dead serious. I'm not going to be the reason Firebringer replaces out. If he wants to replace out because I came in, then I'll replace out instead because I specifically told shos I was only coming in IF Firebringer was okay with it and Firebringer is, apparently, not okay with it.

[Ranger]

What does that have to do with your read list?

Getting caught up takes priority over explaining reads.

And there's no point in me explaining my reads if my replace-in lasts literally less than a day.

That's why both conditions have to be true.

[Ranger]

{TheDominator, The Banterlords, BlueBloodedToffee}
{FA_Q2}
{Dragon Knight, Code of Honor, A Real Scourge, Polar Vortex}
{PhantomCobalt}
{BlackStar}

Three.

[Ranger]

{TheDominator, The Banterlords, BlueBloodedToffee}
{FA_Q2, Dragon Knight}
{Code of Honor, A Real Scourge, Polar Vortex}
{PhantomCobalt}
{BlackStar}

Four.

[Ranger]

{TheDominator, The Banterlords, BlueBloodedToffee, Dragon Knight}
{FA_Q2}
{Code of Honor, A Real Scourge, Polar Vortex}
{PhantomCobalt}
{BlackStar, MagnaofIllusion}

Six.

[Ranger]

Thanks for only readlists and not actually content.

I'm not caught up yet, now, am I?

The "am staying" condition is true.

The "caught up" one I'm working on.

[Ranger]

{TheDominator, The Banterlords, BlueBloodedToffee, Dragon Knight}
{FA_Q2}
{Code of Honor, Polar Vortex}
{PhantomCobalt, A Real Scourge}
{BlackStar, MagnaofIllusion}

8.

[Ranger]

{TheDominator, The Banterlords, BlueBloodedToffee, Dragon Knight, FA_Q2}
{Code of Honor, Polar Vortex}
{PhantomCobalt, A Real Scourge}
{BlackStar, MagnaofIllusion}

Nine.

[Ranger]

{TheDominator, The Banterlords, BlueBloodedToffee, Dragon Knight, FA_Q2}
{Masquerade}
{Code of Honor, Polar Vortex}
{PhantomCobalt}
{A Real Scourge, BlackStar}
{MagnaofIllusion}

11.

[Ranger]

Whoops. Meant to include this:
VOTE: MagnaofIllusion.

[Ranger]

{TheDominator, The Banterlords, BlueBloodedToffee, Dragon Knight, FA_Q2}
{Masquerade}
{Polar Vortex}
{Code of Honor}
{PhantomCobalt, BlackStar}
{A Real Scourge}
{MagnaofIllusion}

13.

For reference: that's never-touching-town, townread, nulltown, null, nullscum, scum,

seriously

scum.

[Ranger]

{TheDominator, The Banterlords, BlueBloodedToffee, Dragon Knight, FA_Q2}
{Masquerade, Polar Vortex}
{Code of Honor}
{PhantomCobalt, BlackStar}
{A Real Scourge}
{MagnaofIllusion}

15.

[Ranger]

Right.

Caught up.

I'll do full reads only on request (as in, literally, just ask about any single read and I'll elaborate on that one read; don't ask for them all because I'll flat-out refuse), but the cliffnotes:
{TheDominator, The Banterlords, BlueBloodedToffee, Dragon Knight, FA_Q2}
{Masquerade, Polar Vortex}
{Code of Honor}
{PhantomCobalt, BlackStar}
{A Real Scourge}
{MagnaofIllusion}

TheDominator is a chronic lurker. He plays this way every game, town or scum. A lynch there would be for policy reasons alone, and have objectively no better chances of hitting scum than random lynching. It would also give no information whatsoever. The reason I have TheDominator as such a strong townread, however, is that in spite of his lack of content, I still got strong town vibes from his early posting.

The Banterlords was a bit of an iffy read at first: there was some town stuff, and some not so town stuff. But the more I read, the better their logic looked. Not necessarily

right

, but looking like it came from a town player. BlueBloodedToffee has this even stronger: a decent (but not rock-solid) start, which later posts make even better. I love basically everything he's done.

Dragon Knight was hard to get an initial read on, but I felt the AtE around the claim was incredibly genuine.

FA_Q2 is a townread for very solid pushes in very good areas. This is similar for the SnowStorm head of Polar Vortex, but Bearbert D's posts keep them from being in the top-tier because I have quite a bit less love for them. Masquerade looks town, but isn't as solid in his positions as my strong townreads.

Code of Honor is basically dead null. I can't get a grip on Titus one way or another. I

want

to say town, but I simply can't say that with confidence.

PhantomCobalt is playing closer to his scum meta than his town meta, but it's difficult to be sure; he plays similarly to TheDominator, in that he's an absolute minimalist and chronic active lurker. Unlike TheDominator, I did not get town vibes from his early posting.

BlackStar was an initial scumread, because I hated his entrance into the game. However, his later content actually looked good. I have mixed feelings about his latest content: on the one hand, it looks bad, on the other, I don't think scum would actually be seriously pushing for a Dragon Knight lynch on D1. So, overall, could be scum, but not definitely scum.

A Real Scourge started out looking decent, but the more I saw, the more Scourge's posting stuck out like a sore thumb. Similarly, MagnaofIllusion is playing

exactly

the same way Red Coyote did in Twin Peaks. It's textbook scum play. That level of objective distance allows for him to push stances which are logically sound, but which will result in a town player being lynched. His entire iso is basically one long scum claim.

[Ranger]

aww come on I had magna as town.

That's because he's saying words you want to hear.

Doesn't make him any less scum, though!

[Ranger]

I'm not used to Ranger giving that huge elaborations on reads unprompted.

That wasn't huge elaboration?

I said that if you wanted elaboration, you could ask. That was the cliffnotes, short, immediate version, which there actually

was

prompt for; I was asked for reasons. I didn't feel like giving the full version, still don't, but I was fine with giving the basic reason driving the read.

I also have an issue with her comparing magna to another player

It doesn't matter. You see the style once, you learn to identify it immediately. Red Coyote was the first player I saw use it, so I associate the style with him, but the style remains very distinct and hard to miss once you've been up against it once.

she also said my play was similar to Magna's hence the scumread.

That I admit may cause confusion. Your play is not, stylistically, similar to MagnaofIllusion's. I said your play stuck out like a sore thumb. I then said MagnaofIllusion's play also stuck out like a sore thumb, just for different reasons.

Let's go with we lynch Ranger, and then on the off-chance she flips town, then we take her read lists and use them.

You know, if people actually followed through with this, I would not object.

Problem is, they never do.

Ever.

I get lynched, my very-much-accurate reads get discarded, and the town loses because they never went back to see that, maybe, just

maybe

, they should have actually listened to me rather than lynching me.

Ranger, talk to me about A Real Scrouge. I'm getting very bad feelings on her. For the same reasons as you appear to do, the fact that she looks distanced from the game. Also, after our claim she threw dirt at us for the claim. Somebody said that was suspicious, she never went deeper with that accusation and then had us as town in a later post. The progression just seems too convenient. All her stances are very convenient and middle of the road.

I'm on a lunch break right now, so I don't have the time to explain right now, but my in-depth explanation would be similar, especially about the progression being convenient and middle-of-the-road.

First of all, Ranger typically gives long walls of information.

That's literally the polar opposite of what I do? Giving long walls of information is the antithesis of my lazy, minimalist playstyle.

[Ranger]

BOTH OF THEM HAVE DONE FUCK-ALL, WHICH IS A SCUM TELL FOR BOTH.

Excuse me?

I'm pushing for {A Real Scourge, MagnaofIllusion} to be lynched.
I'd

compromise

on {PhantomCobalt, BlackStar} but would not be happy about it.
I'm absolutely not letting us lynch outside those four.

That's doing plenty.

This post is suspect. The “Umm my role doesn’t fit” is unnecessary given the “I don’t want to claim” follow-up. Because anyone who knows your play can narrow down what roles that might be.

I can think of many roles that do not fit my play. Doctor. Watcher. Bodyguard. Jailkeeper. Friendly Neighbor. Fruit Vendor. Innocent Child. Lover. These all share a common theme, and it took less than a minute to think of them. I'm sure I could extend the list to be longer with any real thought put in. (E.g. coroner, being a watcher variant, serves much the same purpose, albeit not being a common role.) So, yes, it narrows down the type of role I could be. It is by far no giveaway to what role I have. Replacing into a slot that has already claimed, on the other hand...

Link to the post where you surmised Blackstar is a tracker. I see your 450. What post of Masq made you surmise that.

426, Masquerade said Dragon Knight was voting a tracker claim. I was under the mistaken impression from the BlackStar-Dragon Knight debate I had skimmed around there that Dragon Knight was voting BlackStar. Ergo, BlackStar would be a tracker. (And, for obvious reasons, I would doubt the town having both a tracker

and

a watcher, but scum having a tracker would make a lot of sense.) When I discovered the mistake, I corrected myself in 450 as you yourself note.

This starts as a meta read that basically says “Dom plays exactly this way regardless of alignment”. Yet the conclusion is that “He’s super Town because vibes”. Very generic and unspecific about why the early posts give any sort of vibe as Town.

Yes. TheDominator plays in this style regardless of his alignment. This does not make it impossible to guess at his alignment. His early posting made me think town. I said this was the basic version of the read. Nobody has asked me for the advanced version, which would contain actual links to posts.

The third read is just as generic as the first two. No particular reference to actual posts.

Because nobody asked.

And that’s’ why I find these reads suspect. Ranger as Town should be skeptical that a wagon being driven hard on her has at least some scum involved in the mix.

I honestly never paid attention to the wagon composition on Jeanne. I paid attention to individual players, and gave my reads on them, but this was separate of wagon composition. We didn't really have a votecount around there as far as I can recall, so I don't even know what the wagon composition

was

. If I did, I would note my opinion of it.

In summary that’s my feeling about all of 472 is very generic. These are broad-brush stroke posts with no actual depth of analysis.

Again. Because it was not asked of me. I was very explicit. I said those were cliffnotes. I said if people wanted elaboration on any single read, I would give it. That tells everyone, right then and there, that I have more than what I stated. That tells everyone, right then and there, I am deliberately being generic. That tells everyone, right then and there, that I am not going in-depth unless I am specifically asked to, and that I will only do so on a single player at a time.

Like I said. I'm not going to waste effort putting in more time than necessary.

I’m not adverse to Ranger as the lynch today.

Oh, I was hoping you'd say that.
I'll requote this for emphasis.

I’m not adverse to Ranger as the lynch today.

This is absolutely inconsistent with MagnaofIllusion's stance on Dragon Knights.

And, I QUOTE,

It is a bad play to keep voting an uncounter-claimed Cop Day 1. Even if their play was scumtastic and filled with nothing but insulting and non-scum hunting posting.

Pray tell, what makes lynching an uncounter-claimed watcher

not

bad play, if lynching an uncounter-claimed cop is bad play?

[Ranger]

And if you doubt it...

I’m not sure what you want me to address. So we are in a role-madness game. And that makes DK’s claim Null. So what? Regardless it is still terrible play to lynch DK today if they are uncounter-claimed. Regardless of whether they could be scum either fake-claiming or claiming a Role Cop or other scum variant. DK will be re-assessed Day 2 if he survives the night. Wasting time discussing this is just that – a waste.

So, again: what makes lynching me today different from lynching Dragon Knight? I'm uncounter-claimed. Regardless of whether I'm scum either fakeclaiming, a real scum watcher, variant, or town. What makes me not worthy of being reassessed D2 if I survive the night? What makes discussing a lynch on me

not

a waste of time, when discussing Dragon Knight is a waste?

[Ranger]

I will garruntee that if you try to tell us who to investigate, we will do the exact opposite of what you say.

Investigate me.

:P

[Ranger]

2. MGSV you did post a lot, Machina you posted none.

Uh, I posted the same in both games. Including postgame, I had 48 posts in Metal Gear Solid. Including postgame and my hydra partner's posts at the beginning (about five?), I had 76 posts in Machina. In both games, I was out before D2.

I come in like clockwork. I post once or twice a day. Never more, never less. I get caught up. If I need to attend to a time-intensive task (i.e. explaining a read in-depth), I will spend time on it. I then leave the game. I may come back to the game if I haven't logged out yet (e.g. I was working in another game, finished my work there, and saw new posts since my last), but once I leave, I leave for the day, and don't come back until the next. This is consistent across all my games. It never changes. Never has, never will.

[Ranger]

You had 48 posts because we killed you N1. XP

You had significantly less in Machina, because you were in a hydra.

Every post in the hydra of Machinca Mafia was me except 225, 226, 227, 228, 229, 230, 233, and 234.

Every single one of them. That means of 74 posts, 66 were mine. I was lynched D1. As in, out of the game before D2.

In Metal Gear Solid, I had 41 posts. I was nightkilled N1. As in, out of the game before D2.

The two are identical.

Activity cannot be used to read me.

Why is he town in your reads Ranger? I don't think you've given a reason for that and I don't see any possible one. So please, do elaborate on this.

One read at a time, geez. I just got done with work; I'll get to them as I can.

Ranger, do you like playing scum and if yes, would you consider yourself prone to taking risks?

I absolutely

loathe

playing scum. I hate betraying people, I hate the faking, I hate the lies, I hate how I can even hurt people with my words as scum in ways that I don't when I'm town, and I hate how weak my scum game is compared to my town game. It's not a pleasant experience at all. I also absolutely do not take risks as scum. I always play it safe. My definition of "safe" may differ from yours, but I don't play boldly. Why place myself under that unnecessary risk?

I'll get to the MoI stuff in a separate post. (Well, posts.)

[Ranger]

Oh, so it is a playstyle tell that happens to be relevant across any player universally.

A particular playstyle tell, yes, absent from those same player's town games yet present in their scum games.

Everyone has a role. You’ve just outed you aren’t super strong roles like Cop / Vig / Etc by your own admission.

And this is why you are scum.

Watcher is near-universally considered one of the strongest town roles in existence.

It is both investigative

and

protective, because its existence limits scum's actions in a manner similar to how a doctor would. You're experienced enough and well-versed enough in mafia theory to know this.

So I repeat. Or, can even quote another asking the same thing.

We've collectively decided to give a pass to a scummier player, one who's scummy because of things he has actually done and said, who claimed after being put at L-1, which gave him an actual motive to claim. A player who claimed cop with an implicit twist, which gives him room to wiggle tomorrow. But, ok, everyone is willing to take this risk, and so are we. Now why aren't you willing to take the same risk (I'd even say, a smaller risk) with a player whose biggest faults are basically not playing and only showing up to defend herself and claim unprompted?

How is ranger's lynch acceptable but DK's isn't, taking not just their claims, but their play in consideration?

There literally is none.

You are reading through the thread and seeing multiple players call out your slot for being meta lurking scum and it doesn’t trigger at all that there may be a scum hiding inside there?

There was no votecount. There wasn't even an unofficial votecount as far as I can tell. People noted there was a wagon, but I don't remember seeing any player tally them to a wagon. And if I don't see a votecount of all the players on...then I don't know what the wagon was like. That simple. I know there was a wagon. I know the players I townread, and held no issue with what they were doing. If that really was all there was to the Jeanne wagon, then yes, I have no issue with it. But I don't know because it wasn't something tangible. It popped up and disappeared before anybody bothered to note who was there. As-is, I'm taking your word for it, that it was all townreads of mine on there. I'd have to go back and check myself to confirm. Because I don't know. Thanks to it, you know. Not having been tallied.

On the other hand it is a very strong Scum role since its purpose is to ferret out Town Power Roles like Cop / Vig since scum with the Watcher have to make much fewer assessments and reads in deciding who to watch.

Watcher is useless to the scum. What are they going to catch? Their own nightkill? A doctor if their nightkill fails? A bodyguard? A roleblocker on them if they watch one of their own? A serial killer if they watch one of their own? There are better roles for that, e.g. Tracker, Rolecop, Rolecop variants (Neapolitan, Vanilla Cop). Watcher is an automatic nightkill to scum unless they have a method of bypassing. Admittedly a few exist: ninja, roleblocker/jk, and a redirector. (NOT, however, a busdriver, because the busdriver would be caught red-handed making the switch.) However, those roles exist for the same reason so many counters (e.g. Godfather, roleblocker/JK, redirector, busdriver, ascetic) exist for a cop:

because Watchers are strong town roles

.

So the argument "watchers are weak for town but good for scum" is exactly backwards from what any experienced player

should

be advocating.

[Ranger]

For proof, see this thread.

That would be the Tracker counterpart. Ninjas are still workable with Watchers.

^"Ninjas exist as a counter to watchers, trackers are an unfortunate casualty of this".

The thing with ninjas is that they're also the best (normal) answer to watchers. It's dumb that that's bundled up with tracker immunity, especially when trackers are so much weaker than cops in the first place, but there aren't any roles that only cover one and not the other.

^Same thing.

Obviously, we can't start a thread about it in the middle of the game, but were we to, Watcher would likely be in the top-five list of "strongest common town roles". Where would be debated, but its presence would be assured. This is not an isolated opinion. It is common knowledge. Everyone knows about it. In fact, quoteth our wiki,

Because it is easier to choose who is likely to be targeted by scum at Night than it is to determine who performs the scum kill, Watcher is considerably more powerful than Tracker. In addition, because having the name of a scum to lynch is better than having someone confirmed Town due to being targeted by the Mafia kill, Watcher is more powerful than Doctor. Last, because the meta is such that Cops and Trackers are more anticipated power roles than Watchers, Watcher has been considered more "cheap" than both of them. As a result, Watcher is a particularly strong power role with negative connotations associated with it.

It's considered

stronger than a doctor

.

MagnaofIllusion knows this.

[Ranger]

I would also like to point out that, in a

role madness game

, a watcher is

almost guaranteed

to receive useful information.

Short of being roleblocked, they will

always

receive information. Target someone who cannot be targeted? (Commuter, Hider, Ascetic?) Confirms their claim of not being able to be targeted. Get redirected? Still potentially end up with a result, which can potentially be confirmed.

Admittedly with this being a role madness game and a near-certain town cop, having a scum blocking role is practically guaranteed so we should lynch scum today and hopefully eliminate it (because while they're likely to have one, they're incredibly unlikely to have two), but the point holds.

[Ranger]

Speaking of roleblocks, looking at the wording behind my PM, it's possible I can't be. (Same for redirectors.)

I don't know that for sure, but it'd sure be a nice bonus if true.

[Ranger]

(The reason is because I'm not actually a person. I'm not even a single thing. I'm the sewers. As in, all of them. It'd be hard to stop or mislead those, and text in my PM makes that possible, but it's not explicit one way or another.)

[Ranger]

And that's why she doesn't get lynched at all in her scum games.

Except...of my ten scum games, I've been lynched in four of them.

And of the remaining...one was a marathon (so, not a serious game), one a newbie (so, not a normal playing experience), one was multiball (so, not my normal scumplay given I could legitimately scumhunt), and one a scum-sided setup blitz (so, it made sense not to die). That leaves only Blitz 1 and Blitz 25 as games where there's no explanation for why I wasn't lynched.

[Ranger]

For A Real Scourge: to start with, we get the dissonance in her opener, between 33 and 34. 33 is either saying PhantomCobalt is a good wagon (possible, but I think it was the other), or agreeing with PhantomCobalt that TheDominator is a good wagon. (The context is slightly ambiguous, but this is what it looked like.) Yet, in spite of this, Scourge decides to vote...The Banterlords, for no reason at all.

If you think that 51 serves as an explanation...it doesn't. The unvote on BlackStar came

after

Scourge's entrance into the game, but Scourge did not indicate the vote's reason at all. 58 is opportunistic with regards to the ascetic claim, hopping onto the bandwagon of doubting it.

BlackStar is definitely town! and Magna is weirdly aggressive about every point he makes. not sure on alignment yet.

This relies on at least one of {MagnaofIllusion, BlackStar} being scum, but this line stuck out to me, big time.

also, you guys have gotta get into the habit of trimming down large quotes when you're only responding to one little thing in them! this thread is ugly. :P

The enthusiasm here also felt fake.

244 is saying PhantomCobalt's BBT reasoning is bad, but it makes no commentary on PhantomCobalt himself: is she townreading him and thinking he's just being bad? Scumreading him for the post? She doesn't say. The immediate flop in reads in 245 was also terrible. Not only does she flip, she still tries to fence-sit in spite of the switch.

253 is a vital one: she supports the Jeanne wagon

but does

not

join it

. This, I find FAR more suspicious than any Jeanne vote would have been. 356 is even worse. Note that, as of then, her vote has yet to move from Banters. While she

does

follow it with an unvote...she doesn't vote for anyone. At all. In spite of allegedly having scumreads and having a few nice wagons available to join. This continues in 401: she had my slot as a scumread. Why not vote it?

It's a lot of saying stuff without actually doing stuff. She isn't accomplishing anything with her posting. It's just...

there

.

[Ranger]

For BlueBloodedToffee, I instantly loved 17, especially after 10. 10 was an okay RVS. Him seeing BlackStar's posting (which was bad) and switching his vote there resonated with my own thoughts at the time. I have no problems with any of his posting, and there are little indicators here and there that make me think town, too, e.g. the push onto BlackStar in 35, 39, 117's content feeling good, the boldness of 127 ("don't like it? Vote me"), 134, 255 (what makes this different from ARS? Because BBT

had reason to wait

, namely, wanting to get caught up; that same excuse cannot be given for A Real Scourge), 373, 380.

It's just...lots of small stuff here and there which makes me think he's not scum.

[Ranger]

oh, Ranger, a lot of your read on BBT has to do with how he feels about BlackStar. what if BlackStar is town?

Unchanged. The read isn't based on BlackStar being scum. The read is based on him seeing BlackStar as scum at the same time

I

saw BlackStar as scum, for seemingly the same reasons as I did.

[Ranger]

A Town player in Ranger’s shoes should have some suspicion of the players whose case on Ranger’s slot is “Meta from prior player and lurking”.

Thus, why A Real Scourge offering to join the wagon without actually joining was so suspicious.

Given that you’ve never played a single game with me (unless you are some Alt) and you haven’t even brought up meta evidence that relates to me you can understand why I doubt your magical tell, can’t you?

Well, yes, I can understand the doubt. Doesn't mean it's any less valid, though!

I see you have tagged random threads but if you are honestly suggesting that Watchers are deemed stronger than Cops or Doctors I question your sincerity on the issue.

Oh, so the wiki is wrong then.

The wiki, which there is an active project to overhaul, on a common role, is wrong in its statement.

This isn't something I'm making up.

This is, quite literally, from the wiki page on watchers.

Not stronger than cops, but considered stronger than doctors. Yes. I believe that. If I were to list the strongest five common town roles, I'd go Hider, Cop, Watcher, Doctor, and then probably Gunsmith, with Neapolitan in a distant sixth. (Vig would be seventh.) So, while not stronger than cops, they're pretty on par with cops power-wise. This is not news. Any player with any level of experience knows this.

do you not like having a role you claim is universally viewed as the Strongest Town information role?

That role is in my opinion a Hider. That I would love. Cop would be second. That, also, I would love. In the case of Hiders, smart investigations get me innocent after innocent, and with any competency at all with breadcrumbing targets, a guilty if I target scum. For cops, if I live through the night, I get investigation results. If I don't, then hopefully a watcher was on me. If there wasn't a watcher on me, then we know there's probably not a protective role in the game to save me.

Watcher, on the other hand...a watcher's job is to

catch

the nightkill. If you're someone who

is

the nightkill, fat load of good it does you. Same for doctors, same for bodyguards. THOSE roles, I don't like having. I'd rather some other town player have them and me be a VT. So, yes, there is ego involved...ego in

being the nightkill

.

Are you saying that you read the whole thread, back to front, without noticing players calling your slot scum for meta reasons and calling the manner your slot claimed as scummy?

I noticed them individually. I did not notice them as a group. If I don't see it in a votecount, then I don't think about it. There was no announced wagon. A wagon must have existed, but I didn't take note of it.

If svt, I'm currently leaning more toward Ranger being scum.

When will you learn that if I ever engage someone this heavily, they're probably scum?

[Ranger]

BBT is seriously town, by the way.

Just thought I'd say it again.

I'd fight any attempt to lynch him to the bitter end, as of 603.

[Ranger]

I wouldn't be opposed to a Code of Honor lynch.

It'd be far from idea, but I could see Titus as scum. She's a null read of mine.

I still think there are

much

better lynches than them. Namely, {MagnaofIllusion, A Real Scourge}.
{Ircher, BlackStar} remain compromises, and I'm increasingly dissatisfied with the idea of lynching BlackStar and Ircher's not someone I'd be inclined to wagon right now either. Especially given 619.

For the watcher -- 1) Watcher is more often a Mafia role than a Town role.

Yeah get back to me when you've got the evidence for that. Watcher is, by FAR, more commonly a town role than mafia.

[Ranger]

Ranger, I don't understand how you're town reading me?

Because you lack subtlety and I know mod meta means your role is town-aligned.

[Ranger]

The fact that you are clinging to this stance with every ounce of strength you can muster when the stance is meta (which is generally pretty bad as a source on its own) that isn’t even specific player meta is suspect.

You know, you keep on saying it's meta...but it's really not.

It's a particular behavioral tell.

And furthermore this whole back and forth with your doesn’t read at all as a player doing anything that actually amounts to making a read.

Of course I'm not making a read. That's because the read already exists. I'm not beginning to have a read; the read was formed from the moment I read your posts.

The constant reference to the Wiki is a perfect example – it is like you believe continually appealing to some outside source will win you the points in the debate.

Or, you know, you are

claiming something that is provably false

, and I'm showing the evidence for why it's false. It's like you're claiming the Earth is flat, and me linking to a Wikipedia article on a globe.

Not a single lick of this discussion revolves around why I'm scum.

Admittedly, I was rather lazy in that regard. I never built my case on you. This? This is mostly building off of one point: that you, as town, would absolutely never be advocating for the lynch of a Watcher, a role of absolutely-comparable strength to a cop, especially after making the argument to not lynch a cop. It is an argument showing through definitive evidence that you have shown an inconsistency in your play, which all your walls are trying to cover up.

Because if you really did think that someone "Going after a strong Town role" was scummy you would not have come to "Uber Town" reads on all three.

Going after a strong town role is null by itself; people are idiots. (See also: Firebringer still thinking I'm scum.) Going after a strong town role, after

advocating not going after a strong town role

, is absolutely scummy because it shows a strong inconsistency.

It is that those three players voted you individually for reasons that at best are borderline valid.

And? Just because the reason for voting isn't valid doesn't mean the player is scum from it. See also: people are idiots.

You can’t articulate anything in terms that isn’t broad generalizations and thus go to the “I’m good so sheep me” well.

Actually, I can. I just haven't. Not once have I made reference to your older posting. And yet, my scumread existed on you prior to your logical inconsistency, which makes up the majority of my posting on you right now. That's because I haven't even made the case on you yet, out of laziness. Not lack of ability. I simply haven't chosen to make it yet.

I’m certainly willing to compromise on Dom as deadline approaches.

Here's a new one: TheDominator is the first vote on my wagon. He's willing to join the wagon that his compromise-lynch is pushing.

Admittedly this isn't a strong point, but he makes absolutely no mention of how TheDominator is on his current wagon of choice.

Oh.
And if you want me ranting about the composition of wagons.
{TheDominator, MagnaofIllusion, Dragon Knight, BlackStar} is a good thing to rant about. Not a single vote in the lot which is actually good. Sure, not all scum. Probably mostly town. But definitely not all town.

[Ranger]

Hey Ircher, what are your thoughts on the Ranger wagon? You said you wanted to lynch Dragon or Ranger, but now that Ranger picks up you forgot that sentiment entirely.

This very well could be scum hoping to get traction on my wagon going by making Ircher switch over.

[Ranger]

UNVOTE: I just realized that u don't like anyone on the ranger wagon.

And it's things like this why I don't want to lynch BlackStar.

Incidentally, MagnaofIllusion

should

have been saying this.

He didn't.

[Ranger]

Ircher, Ranger is quite good at faking a town game

Since when? Three of the games I thought were my best scum games, I was lynched in with absolutely no hesitation by the town. (The fourth was also not anything remarkable.) I thought they were good, sure, but apparently there was some giveaway. And in every other scum game except your marathon game (which was a

marathon

game), I was suspected the whole game and just got lucky the lynch never came onto me.

So, if I'm willing to take this risk with DK, as are you, why aren't you willing to take the risk with Ranger? Because her reads "don’t logically come from a Town standpoint"? Because her role is weaker? Opinions. Opinions I disagree with. "Opinions" that to me can't logically come from a Town standpoint.

You're downplaying the value of her role and stubbornly scum reading her for things that are just wrong, no matter how well you try to justify them.

This is the crux of my current back-and-forth with MagnaofIllusion. I can elaborate with extras from his earlier posting if it's not convincing enough by itself. 688 as well.

[Ranger]

If that's all it takes for you to townread someone, you're either crappy town or scum.

Except BlackStar's posting has been getting consistently better and better as the game progresses. In that post, he shows that he's actually thinking about the possibility the wagon he's on is being driven by scum, so he unvotes and reconsiders.

This is something MagnaofIllusion should be doing, especially given

it's one of his points against me

. Yet he didn't.

[Ranger]

The most suspicious thing about 699 is how it is literally my exact reads.

Otherwise, that was a pure town post from Ircher.

[Ranger]

As of page 29, I think Code of Honor is the third scum.

It's just...awful posting.

[Ranger]

This is 100% scum!titus

Yes.

Yes, it is.

We agree about something.

If MagnaofIllusion's wagon dies down, it'll be Code of Honor's I join.

[Ranger]

{BlueBloodedToffee, Dragon Knight, Polar Vortex}
{The Banterlords, FA_Q2}
{TheDominator, Ircher}
{Masquerade, BlackStar}
{A Real Scourge}
{Code of Honor, MagnaofIllusion}

To explain the reordering: I'm separating my top-tier into three different tiers. The tier remaining at the top are the names that are absolutely 100% town. The second tier are names that I'm pretty much 100% sure are town, but there's less evidence to support me. The third tier is "town, with minor reserves": for TheDominator, it is the stubbornness behind his play not exactly being pro-town, and for Ircher, it is lingering doubts around an otherwise-solid slot.

Then you get to the town tier: Masquerade remains a townread, but not a top-tier one; BlackStar is gaining in rank.
A Real Scourge remains probably scum.

But Code of Honor has shown themselves in the last few pages to be 100% scum, and so too is MagnaofIllusion.

[Ranger]

I honestly can't understand Code's last posts. She is misunderstanding a lot of stuff.

"Misunderstanding". With quotation marks.

It kind-of reminds you of someone you happen to be voting right now, doesn't it?

[Ranger]

Eh, I'm still voting MagnaofIllusion for good reason, but I think given this, you can at least understand why I'd move to Code of Honor in a heartbeat, yes?

[Ranger]

I don't understand your need to justify changing your vote to me.

Because you're town and we may reach a point where I need that understanding from you in order to get a lynch, e.g. if the MagnaofIllusion wagon falls apart and I switched to Code of Honor, needing your vote to seal their fate.

[Ranger]

But let’s get into the heart of your “One of her Townies would be an easy mislynch” portion. Why are all of DK / Banterlords / Dom easy mislynches? DK is clearly off the table by the time Ranger replaced so that is out. Banterlords had gotten exactly zero heat all game so I don’t see why you call them an easy push either. Dom is the only player that might be an easy lynch among the three.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaand, Magna shows his true colors here.

Magna's original argument?

"I find it suspect that Ranger didn't suspect any of the players voting her slot."
Magna's comment here? "Why would it be unusual for a scum-Ranger to not go after them? None of them are easy mislynches."

And a Cop claim with no other claims on the board as scum risks counter-claim and instant hemp at the cost of outing the Town Cop.

The same applies to a Watcher. Cop claims risk counters from Hiders, Gunsmiths, Neapolitans, and Cops; Watcher claims risk counters from Trackers, Followers, Motion Detectors, Voyeurs, Watchers, and about half a dozen other variants.

Why should I be saying the wagon is bad when the only vote that I would see coming from a scum-read was Blackstar’s which I had not read as of 658

Hmm...let's see. How about your willingness to compromise on TheDominator, the founder of the wagon on me? Or how you clearly state that you want to reevaluate Dragon Knight come D2 multiple times after their claim and continue to call them scummy in spite of the claim? (You say you're townreading them as of that post. This is news! 209, 261, 331, and even THIS OWN POST earlier at the top all suggest otherwise.) Then there is of course the BlackStar vote. Especially given you were attacking me for

not

going after the composition of a wagon.

You say it yourself!

Dom is a compromise lynch for me because he’s exceedingly low content and I see a potential scum-slip which I already mentioned.

^This is not something you should be willing to join a wagon with. Especially given your vote/suspicion there. Or, if you do, you should note it. You did not. You joined the wagon without thinking about the person already on there.

[Ranger]

Intent to hammer.

I'm demanding a claim from Code of Honor.

[Ranger]

Because I'm dead serious, I'm seconds away from hammering if they don't come in and claim RIGHT NOW.

[Ranger]

You can't possibly think that makes any sense.

-Xk

You're online.

So, claim now.

[Ranger]

I'm giving four minutes.

[Ranger]

Make that three.

[Ranger]

Two.

[Ranger]

One.

[Ranger]

Hmph.

Spineless coward.

Code of Honor was online.
They haven't posted a claim in spite of intent.

They're scum.

[Ranger]

Well,

yes

, but it's still irrelevant to the fact Code of Honor is scum.

[Ranger]

You're starting to give off some really bad vibes, ranger

I've been kept from hammering scum.

I'm grumpy.

[Ranger]

VOTE: Code of Honor.

[Ranger]

Like...given shos is V/LA.

We have time to discuss things even after a hammer.

I mean, Titus will lie as scum and just say she was town even if she wasn't.

But.

We could get potentially DAYS worth of useful twilight discussion post-hammer.

And that's not something we're going to get without a hammer.

[Ranger]

Code of Honor case, in a nutshell: 694, 762, 763, 764, and 766: Code of Honor has remained a null read for the majority of the game, not sticking out and doing much of anything. This, itself, would have been alarming enough, but I gave the benefit of the doubt and at the time called them null. Then, Titus went after Ircher with "misunderstanding" (air quotes intentional) after "misunderstanding", stretching credibility. Exploiting "misunderstandings" is, to a T, Titus's scumplay. She thrives off of these misrepresentations of a player, and stubbornly pushing them through.

[Ranger]

Ranger, why do you think scum Code wouldn't have claimed when you stated intent to hammer?

Let's say your real role is something unambiguously scum. Ninja. Godfather. When pressured to, on the spot, instantly claim, what do you do? This is role madness, so they can't claim VT.

Exactly. If their real role is something unambiguously scum, then they have to spend time crafting up a believable fakeclaim that they hope doesn't sound like a scum role and which they also hope doesn't serve to counterclaim a real town role. This is not something they can do on the spot; it must be made after careful consideration.

Ergo, Code of Honor is scum, trying to create a fakeclaim.

[Ranger]

Fakeclaiming is a Very Big Thing to Titus.

[Ranger]

Not necessarily. Titus would need to have an idea for what roles were present before making a fakeclaim.

[Ranger]

VT in a role madness.

Uh-huh.

I believe the proper term here is in fact "Lynch it with fire".

[Ranger]

I'll use my bah-post too.

Fuck our role.

Seeing what you got, yeah,

ouch

man. <3