I Don't Like a Lot of the Guides

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I Don't Like a Lot of the Guides

Post Post #0 (ISO) » Wed Mar 23, 2016 5:30 am

Post by Killthestory »

play what works best for you
Last edited by Killthestory on Fri Apr 08, 2016 6:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post Post #1 (ISO) » Wed Mar 23, 2016 7:37 am

Post by itlepip »

:roll:
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Post Post #2 (ISO) » Wed Mar 23, 2016 7:39 am

Post by Killthestory »


LE FUNNY MEME XDDDDDDDDDD
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Post Post #3 (ISO) » Wed Mar 23, 2016 7:41 am

Post by wgeurts »

Well then, don't read them. Also they are mostly ancient but me and Kittymo are planning on converting some MD threads to articles so new stuff may change this.
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i agree we should have a rule against wgeurts
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let's have 2 rules against wgeurts
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Post Post #4 (ISO) » Wed Mar 23, 2016 7:44 am

Post by Killthestory »

It's not the point of not reading them. It's the point of new players who do read them and agree to their line of thinking. Open minded play is the best play, and a player forcing themselves to play one way as a singular role, but then he change playstyle when he plays another role is silly.
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Post Post #5 (ISO) » Wed Mar 23, 2016 7:44 am

Post by itlepip »

Guides provide a good framework for players to deviate from while simultaneously giving tells that are decent on newbies and are at least a start on better players. Trust me if you don't have any tells a). You can't ever read anything b). You flake out because you can't actually scumhunt. Which has happened to me when I reject too many of what I view as scummy at a time. Your idea of a guide is just to achieve whatever ideal you like the most rather than to help new players get a decent grasp of the game. Also some of the advice is really useful, like a miller claiming as such after they get investigated is such bad EV that even if it is 'linear thinking' its bad.
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Post Post #6 (ISO) » Wed Mar 23, 2016 7:48 am

Post by Killthestory »

In post 5, itlepip wrote:Guides provide a good framework for players to deviate from while simultaneously giving tells that are decent on newbies and are at least a start on better players. Trust me if you don't have any tells a). You can't ever read anything b). You flake out because you can't actually scumhunt. Which has happened to me when I reject too many of what I view as scummy at a time. Your idea of a guide is just to achieve whatever ideal you like the most rather than to help new players get a decent grasp of the game. Also some of the advice is really useful, like a miller claiming as such after they get investigated is such bad EV that even if it is 'linear thinking' its bad.

Man, you misinterpreted everything I said so perfectly, wow.

My idea of a guide is to facilitate a new player into a proper playstyle that compliments them, and their personality.
It is not to direct them into a playstyle most commonly used.
The fact of the matter is that these guides are leading them too much into a generic townie playstyle when everyone's different in how they play. There is no right and wrong with playstyles as long as you are actively giving out your opinions.

Also I love the passive aggressiveness. Fuck off my dick if you can't say shit up front
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Post Post #7 (ISO) » Wed Mar 23, 2016 7:52 am

Post by wgeurts »

Would you say players currently all play similarly?
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Post Post #8 (ISO) » Wed Mar 23, 2016 7:53 am

Post by Killthestory »

In post 7, wgeurts wrote:Would you say player currently all play similarly?

Absolutely not. There's plenty of different playstyles around, and that's great. However, I just don't like the guides that guide you on how to play as a certain role. You should learn your playstyle, and then you play with that same playstyle every game. There should be no working around your role. Your role should work around you.
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Post Post #9 (ISO) » Wed Mar 23, 2016 8:44 am

Post by zoraster »

In post 6, Killthestory wrote:
In post 5, itlepip wrote:Guides provide a good framework for players to deviate from while simultaneously giving tells that are decent on newbies and are at least a start on better players. Trust me if you don't have any tells a). You can't ever read anything b). You flake out because you can't actually scumhunt. Which has happened to me when I reject too many of what I view as scummy at a time. Your idea of a guide is just to achieve whatever ideal you like the most rather than to help new players get a decent grasp of the game. Also some of the advice is really useful, like a miller claiming as such after they get investigated is such bad EV that even if it is 'linear thinking' its bad.

Man, you misinterpreted everything I said so perfectly, wow.

My idea of a guide is to facilitate a new player into a proper playstyle that compliments them, and their personality.
It is not to direct them into a playstyle most commonly used.
The fact of the matter is that these guides are leading them too much into a generic townie playstyle when everyone's different in how they play. There is no right and wrong with playstyles as long as you are actively giving out your opinions.

Also I love the passive aggressiveness. Fuck off my dick if you can't say shit up front


I think he did say what he meant to say. I don't read this as passive aggressive. On the other hand, I see your response as ridiculously defensive.

So here's the thing. You don't like the guides that are out there? Write one of your own. This thread isn't very persuasive.
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Post Post #10 (ISO) » Wed Mar 23, 2016 8:46 am

Post by Killthestory »

In post 9, zoraster wrote:
In post 6, Killthestory wrote:
In post 5, itlepip wrote:Guides provide a good framework for players to deviate from while simultaneously giving tells that are decent on newbies and are at least a start on better players. Trust me if you don't have any tells a). You can't ever read anything b). You flake out because you can't actually scumhunt. Which has happened to me when I reject too many of what I view as scummy at a time. Your idea of a guide is just to achieve whatever ideal you like the most rather than to help new players get a decent grasp of the game. Also some of the advice is really useful, like a miller claiming as such after they get investigated is such bad EV that even if it is 'linear thinking' its bad.

Man, you misinterpreted everything I said so perfectly, wow.

My idea of a guide is to facilitate a new player into a proper playstyle that compliments them, and their personality.
It is not to direct them into a playstyle most commonly used.
The fact of the matter is that these guides are leading them too much into a generic townie playstyle when everyone's different in how they play. There is no right and wrong with playstyles as long as you are actively giving out your opinions.

Also I love the passive aggressiveness. Fuck off my dick if you can't say shit up front


I think he did say what he meant to say. I don't read this as passive aggressive. On the other hand, I see your response as ridiculously defensive.

So here's the thing. You don't like the guides that are out there? Write one of your own. This thread isn't very persuasive.

P passive aggressive.

Anyway, I have. However, I don't like the ideal of bending to a role instead of bending a role to how you like and how you play.
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Post Post #11 (ISO) » Wed Mar 23, 2016 9:04 am

Post by Killthestory »

Let me go more in-depth, as far as I can in fact

In post 0, Killthestory wrote:My take on shit regarding mafia basically.

Play whatever works best for you. A playstyle should be a direct imitation of you in real life. Why should you have to all super tense and serious and shit and just pretend to be what you aren't? If your friends know you, they will have the easiest time townreading you. There's also the fact that there's nothing hindering you in playing to the best of your ability because you simply are just playing. There's no strategies on "should I bus?" "Should I defend?" Whatever you'd normally do, just do it and you'll be completely good my guys. Maybe you'll get lynched the first couple of games for being unnatural with how you play, but with time people will come to be able to easily see which alignment, you are, or so they think. It works in two different ways. If you're always playing a direct imitation of your self, no strategies or anything involved, then how the fuck is someone supposed to be able to read you? How can they read you if you're simply always acting the same, and the tone behind your posts is generally the same. The only way they can read you is based on correlations, but even then you can generally say you were just targeting who you scumread or you defended them because you thought they were town. There's absolutely no downplay to just playing by yourself in regards to playstyles. Trying to imitate someone's playstyle is just silly in general because your acting someone you're not. You're not typically extremely aggressive or pushy, so why act like that? It just hinders you.

Anyway, there's two categories of playstyles that all mafia players should fall under. "but wait kill didnt you just say that we should play how we typically act" yes, but there should be some limitations my dear lad. Tight Aggressive and Loose Aggressive. Notice there's no passive, or the infamous lurker. Let me explain why. Imagine you're in a quite literal mob who wants to linch some bitch my man. The aggressive players are the ones calling for their heads, demanding they be put on a pike or some shit like that. Now, imagine the one guy, standing off to the corner proclaiming, "uh... can w-w-we please lynch kill-desu, nya~." That is a passive player. A passive player does not push their agenda or give any definitive opinions on anything. They are quite literally the doormat in the game, able to be walked over quite easily. You are basically a deterrent to whatever alignment because you're quite literally not doing anything, even if you post a lot. However, I'm willing to say that I have seen few passive players who have behaved like this that have played very well due to being able to coincide it with their personality. It's far and few between tho. If you think it would really imitate you as a person, then go for it. Then, you have the lurker style. Lurker is not a playstyle, but I'll humor you anyway. Lurkers basically aren't playing the game. The game mafia can be played in real life, and typically there's no prods and shit because it's real life motherfucking shit my man. So if you have a guy whos not saying shit irl, you're either gonna get annoyed and stop playing, or you're gonna lynch the bastard. This is typically the lurker "playstyle" over the forums, too. Lurker is really not even a playstyle, more activity, but like I said, I'd humor you dudes out there anyway.

Anyway, let me, before I get ahead of myself, explain the significance of Tight Aggressive and Loose Aggressive. Loose Aggressive players are players that are basically going balls to the walls in their scumreading tactics. If you're not complying, you're the enemy. They push their town agenda heavily and attack whoever they scumread fiercely. For example. "B-B-Baka, let's lynch this player!" "MOTHERFUCKER THATS SCUMMY AS FUCK IM ABOUT TO LYNCH YO ASS MY MAN." "Wait, no s-s-senpai, I'm sorry, please forgive me." "OH NOW YOURE BUDDYING UP TO MY ASS YOU LITTLE BITCH ASS PANSY, THAT DESERVES THE FUCKING VOTE MY DEAREST LAD. /vote this dude who cant play fo shit my man." That is Loose Aggressive in a nutshell.

Tight Aggressive is a whole different ballgame. They're the players who are coldly calculated and show little to no emotion, but they scumhunt hard, too, they just don't push their agenda so hard, and they're typically better at seeing someone else's perspective. They plan out what they want to do, or maybe they just try to be versatile, and they ask questions and pick apart their opponents defenses or posts systematically. For example, "B-B-Baka, let's lynch this player!" "Lad, didn't you actually just want to lynch the other player. Wouldn't you consider that vastly opportunistic yourself considering the fact that that man just accused this player of being scum, of which you quickly jumped on. And if I pulled your ISO from Day 2, you jumped from 5 different wagons to finally hammer yesterday's lynch target which flipped VT." "Well, uh...... I'm town?!" "That's what they all say, lad /vote player who dont know how to play for shit."

Maybe you fit in the middle, that's completely fine. As long as you can identify yourself as one or the other, you're good my man. Anyway, I mentioned subcategories too that fall under this shit, like maybe you townhunt, or maybe you gambit a lot, or you could regularly scumhunt, idk. Here's my take on that. If you tools available to you that you could easily use to find scum, why not use it? Whatever you have at your disposal, make good use of it. There's never a reason to not use a tool that could potentially help you, it's like saying, "No, Mr. Baggins, I will not take this armor because even if I get attacked by some ogre dude, I have all these experienced adventurers who can save my ass." Spoilers for y'all, that fucking armor saved Frodo's life. The gist is to use whatever tools you have available to you.

Also, I'd like to note that there are all these fancy abbreviations and strategies, but they really mean nothing overall. Just play how you feel my man. Although I will say that if you're an advanced player, you can go against meta like completely buddying up to your mafia members because going against meta is actually extremely strong, as one player showed me. The dude nearly one a game in a forum as an NK that was ridiculously bad. It was pretty impressive, actually, and it was all because he didn't play like how scum should play, he went against meta and played how he felt like.


Now, changing your playstyle constantly to conform to a single role will absolutely destroy you. You're working against your personality, and you're not comfortable with how you play. Trust me, I used to do this all the time. To be honest, I sucked ass. I could not play correctly at all. I was all over the place, and even my scumreads were effected. The only way I really got decent was when I just relaxed, played my loose aggressive self, and decided to just play how I felt. The next game I had, 2 correct scumreads. Playstyles really effect how you play the game, and how well you do. I simply cannot play as a tight aggressive player at all. It's not in my nature, and it goes against my entire personality. I even tried it once, and I failed miserably. I ended up reverting to a loose aggressive playstyle in the middle of D3. I simply could not go against my personality.

Now what these guides are trying to reinforce is that you should bend to roles. When you get a role, you should have a mindset of how you want to act like, of how you want to specifically play. This is my main problem with guides. As I've been saying, roles should work with you. You should play your normal game, but then use your role as a tool. Imagine it as tools like townhunting and meta. You still use these tools even if they aren't apart of your actual playstyle. The same can be applied to your role. You use it as a tool that supports your playstyle. However, it should not dictate how you play. Think of it like this, you know how swordfighters say, "Think of the sword as an extension of your body." They mean that it's a tool you wield. You clearly don't let the sword wield you. You wield it. You form your own diverse style of fighting, and you use the sword as your tool of accomplishing these means. The way you fight is completely up to you. This is exactly the point I'm trying to prove here. Your role is the extension of your playstyle. How you play is entirely up to you, but your role is a tool that helps town catch scum faster.

And then I've seen guide (not specifically on this site) stating that some playstyles are better than others. (Of course assuming there talking about the subcategories between tight aggressive and loose aggressive) This is untrue. As I've stated multiple times, every player has a unique playstyle designed around their own personality. There simply is no better "personality" or playstyle, as you would call it. We're all equal in our own right. Players should be comfortable in how they play, not trying to imitate another player. This is a flaw at the core. Imitation of another person is like attempting to imitate a cool kid at your school, to be popular. It doesn't work, frankly, and it never will.

Some discussions aren't even guides, but they pertain to scumtells, specific strategies, etc. Playing around a specific strategy or looking for specific things is equally silly. You can't compare two players and say they both have the same scumtells. How could you possibly compare two people and say that one is smarter than the other? It's like saying Einstein is smarter than Martin Luther King. While Einstein may have a higher IQ, Mr. King certainly has a better knowledge of persuasiveness and the streets. He knows how to command respect. Scumtell discussion just promotes the trap I'd refer to as Linear thinking, which I keep bringing up.

Specific strategies that you focus yourself around that isn't your playstyle? It's silly. I probably shouldn't go in-depth on this one, but I will repeat myself. Strategies don't matter. They don't. Your playstyle is what matters. Anything you'd normally do, do it. No hesitation, no second thoughts. There's no need to try to institute a strategy in your play unless you explicitly think it makes you better. It's like trying to be good at literally everything instead of trying to be good at what directly helps you at the time. Is it nice to know photoshop? Absolutely. Would it really effect a construction worker who works full time? No. Now, it'd be good for a construction worker to be good at math. This is a direct example of explicit strategies that could help your playstyle flourish.

This is the point I'm trying to get across. Nothing else.
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Post Post #12 (ISO) » Wed Mar 23, 2016 9:13 am

Post by zoraster »

If some playstyles win more than others, isn't that a pretty good sign that they're better?
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Post Post #13 (ISO) » Wed Mar 23, 2016 9:14 am

Post by Killthestory »

In post 12, zoraster wrote:If some playstyles win more than others, isn't that a pretty good sign that they're better?

Why imitate someone elses playstyle when it isn't part of your personality? Isn't that the same as trying to imitate someones personality in real life?
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Post Post #14 (ISO) » Wed Mar 23, 2016 9:22 am

Post by zoraster »

No? The goal of the game is to win the game, not really to "be yourself" except in the context of how that helps you win. This is a game based on subterfuge. Pretending is a pretty large part of how it works.
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Post Post #15 (ISO) » Wed Mar 23, 2016 9:25 am

Post by Killthestory »

In post 14, zoraster wrote:No? The goal of the game is to win the game, not really to "be yourself" except in the context of how that helps you win.

Sure, the goal of the game is to win, but every player plays differently to achieve this goal. Mafia is a social game, and it requires you to be yourself. Some players aren't good because they aren't social in real life. Some are, and they are good. However, players are drastically worse when they are playing against how they normally act. I've seen a player personally wipe town from the face of the earth as scum because he was playing his normal self. Like literally, he was insulting players, being antagonistic, the whole 9, but he wasn't lynched because since he played like this every game, acted like this in skype, and was just his usual personality.

Your personality compliments how you play. Imitating someone elses playstyle ruins your own. You aren't good trying to be someone else. You're only good being yourself.
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Post Post #16 (ISO) » Wed Mar 23, 2016 9:48 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

there are definitely right and wrong ways to play

and using an example of someone whose town play is indistinguishable from their scum play because of how bad their town play is doesn't really prove the point i think you want it to prove
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Post Post #17 (ISO) » Wed Mar 23, 2016 9:51 am

Post by Killthestory »

In post 16, zMuffinMan wrote:there are definitely right and wrong ways to play

and using an example of someone whose town play is indistinguishable from their scum play because of how bad their town play is doesn't really prove the point i think you want it to prove

Their town play is actually really good. They picked up 2 scum off day one RVS within 5 pages.

Anyway, I've already outligned the right and wrong ways to play. Anything within Tight Aggressive and Loose Aggressive is fine.
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Post Post #18 (ISO) » Wed Mar 23, 2016 10:01 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

no, you're still wrong because good intentions doesn't necessarily translate to good (or correct) play

besides which, guides aren't the be all and end all, they're just meant to
guide
people, and there are two things to realise about this: one is that basically all guides fall within your "aggressive" spectrum, but you're claiming there's something wrong with that, and two, you could be an incredible player, regardless of your personality, by just sticking to a generic guide if that generic guide isn't dogshit
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Post Post #19 (ISO) » Wed Mar 23, 2016 10:05 am

Post by Killthestory »

In post 18, zMuffinMan wrote:no, you're still wrong because good intentions doesn't necessarily translate to good (or correct) play

besides which, guides aren't the be all and end all, they're just meant to
guide
people, and there are two things to realise about this: one is that basically all guides fall within your "aggressive" spectrum, but you're claiming there's something wrong with that, and two, you could be an incredible player, regardless of your personality, by just sticking to a generic guide if that generic guide isn't dogshit

Meh

There's something wrong with linear thinking. "This is how you should play as this role" is close minded. Mafia is not linear. This is a fact. Why play linear if it's not.

Anyway, no. No, you couldn't. You can try to behave completely opposite of how you play now, and I test you to see if you do good for 2-3 games. If you actually do good, I'll revert all of my posts completely. I'll even admit to being wrong. However, once again, mafia is a social game. It's based around your personality. Being someone your not hinders your play, it doesn't help it.
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Post Post #20 (ISO) » Wed Mar 23, 2016 10:22 am

Post by Antihero »

i guess i don't really know what guides you're criticizing here. can you name names or give links?

i don't think anyone would argue w/ you that flexibility and adaptability are important.
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Post Post #21 (ISO) » Wed Mar 23, 2016 10:24 am

Post by Killthestory »

I'd rather not diss specific guides since I know from experience that can hurt. Especially a guide that has actual hard work put into it.

Just think of the generalizations I've listed.
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Post Post #22 (ISO) » Wed Mar 23, 2016 10:25 am

Post by Cheery Dog »

This thread is stuck on linear thinking with its hatred towards guides.
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Post Post #23 (ISO) » Wed Mar 23, 2016 10:26 am

Post by Killthestory »

In post 22, Cheery Dog wrote:This thread is stuck on linear thinking with its hatred towards guides.

http://niceme.me/
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Post Post #24 (ISO) » Wed Mar 23, 2016 10:39 am

Post by Antihero »

In post 21, Killthestory wrote:I'd rather not diss specific guides since I know from experience that can hurt. Especially a guide that has actual hard work put into it.

Just think of the generalizations I've listed.

i think you're complaining about a problem that doesn't really exist. at least not on our wiki or in md.

i'm not familiar w/ other sites and their stuff to be able to say anything intelligent about them.
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